Jamie Oliver hired a potato

[Sarah K]

There IS evidence that pedophiles can be rehabilitated. The positive outcome usually occurs when the person is caught and punished/rehabilitated early on in their adult lives.

I'm on my phone right now so can't pull up a bunch of stuff. But I'm sure a few minutes with Google Scholar can show you what you need.

I mean, I absolutely believe in second chances, and believe that people can change. Did he do something awful? Absolutely. But if he has served his time as the law sees fit, he deserves a shot to live his life, too.

[allegro]

See also this:

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/c.../tandi429.html

[Sutekh]

That link places that rate of re-offending at 52% and admits it's a conservative estimate, stating that some subsets re-offend more than others and obtaining data on sex crime full stop is extremely difficult (implying there's more going on than we are aware of, not less).

This is still a hell of a risk to take, especially considering most offenders abuse more than one person

[allegro]

That link places that rate of re-offending at 52% and admits it's a conservative estimate, stating that some subsets re-offend more than others and obtaining data on sex crime full stop is extremely difficult (implying there's more going on than we are aware of, not less).

This is still a hell of a risk to take, especially considering most offenders abuse more than one person

Well, but it also states that not all "child sex offenders" are "pedophiles." (And since this victim was more-than-likely already done with puberty, this would technically be hebephilia, a crime, not a mental disorder.)

This child sex offender in particular must register as a sex offender for life, and one article said he's not allowed to work or live around any children for life. There don't appear to be any articles about his sentence or case other than that one recycled article.

Here's a much more comprehensive study.

Here is another one.

This is what we have in the U.S. as far as the sex offender registry and enforcement. Here's the Registry.

[Sutekh]

OK if clarification is required, I want anyone who is a danger off the streets - paedophiles, hebephiles, pederasts and 70s radio djs

[Sarah K]

Well, sure... But what we want, and what the laws state are two very different things. If someone has served their time in the eyes of the law, then they should be allowed an opportunity. I agree with you that there should me harsher punishments. But THAT is where the outrage should be directed, NOT towards a guy who is trying to continue on with his life.

[Sutekh]

Well, sure... But what we want, and what the laws state are two very different things. If someone has served their time in the eyes of the law, then they should be allowed an opportunity. I agree with you that there should me harsher punishments. But THAT is where the outrage should be directed, NOT towards a guy who is trying to continue on with his life.

I'm not surprised at him trying to get on with his life & I can't really blame him (though I am amazed at how he can live with himself), but I take a dim view of the system and a very dim view of the employer giving that guy a chance over all the other applicants. If he came up to you, told you what he did and then asked for just a cigarette, how would you feel about giving him one? I'm just flabbergasted he was given a job as a nice cushy middle class professional

I just feel that this incident is an example of the kind of attitude which both creates and enables these kinds of people

[Sarah K]

Perhaps he was the most qualified candidate. I have no idea. I haven't really heard of this story.

And me giving the dude any chance would depend on how he felt about the situation. Did he admit his guilt? Does he feel bad? Or is he saying he was set up, etc? Is there a link with better details of this case?

It's not as if he got hired to be a preschool teacher or something. The food service industry is FILLED with people who have criminal records of varying degrees. FILLED!!!

[Sutekh]

Yeah but some crimes are a lot worse than others, and most crimes aren't as bad as raping a 12 year old. The issue isn't that he hired a criminal, it's the kind of criminal

I have to say it makes no difference to me if he was the most qualified for the job (I'm not saying he hired him because he was a sex offender), the crab linguini can be tip top but there's a point where I haven't got time for someone

[Sarah K]

I don't think anyone is arguing that. In my opinion, child rapists are the ones who should spend eternity behind bars. But that isn't the world we live in.

And as far as I'm aware, this is the man's first time getting caught, yeah? And he served his jail time. I'm sure he will be monitored for years after his release. If the employer doesn't have issues with the crime, then that is up to them, not us.

I mean, there are child rapists bagging your groceries, working on your cars, and serving you food each and every day. Many places believe in giving opportunities in these situations... And many places don't. As someone stated earlier, this is only news because he was hired by a celebrity, and not your local restaurant.

[Sutekh]

It's true that's the only reason why it's in the news, but that doesn't mean it isn't wrong

I'm not sure what you mean it's not up to us - we aren't allowed to find this deeply wrong or object to society accommodating these people? Society is about reaching a consensus on acceptable standards through discussion and legislation

Also not sure what you mean by "served his jail time" - seeing as we're both agreed his sentence was a joke, what does that mean? He practically got away with it. He hasn't even begun to serve society by paying off his debt

[Sarah K]

It's not up to us to decide if this man is or is not qualified for the job that he was hired for. That is up to his employer. If his employer doesn't see issue with it, then that is their decision. There are tons of places who WOULD exclude this man from employment. Apparently this is not one of them.

You seem to be so sure of yourself that this man has not been rehabilitated. What are you basing this off of, besides the knee jerk answer of "rapists can't be helped"?

What I meant by he served his time is that IN THE EYES OF THE LAW, he completed his punishment. Therefore, he should be able to move on with his life. I mean, we can go on all day about what "should" happen to these people. However, our opinions on that don't matter. You're free to not patronize wherever this man works. But it doesn't matter.

I mean, I guess what do you believe should happen to this dude? He should just never work again? What is that going to solve? That would just create more problems.

[Sutekh]

Already said - He should be relegated to minimum wage jobs. He has forfeit a great deal of status in society by doing what he did

Again I'm not really sure by what you mean when you say it isn't up to us to determine whether he is qualified? I'm not pretending this thread will change anything and we are entitled to our opinions on what goes on - making money is not so sacred that we should just mind our own business and keep quiet at all times - when it comes to people who are potentially (and in my argument, probably) harmful to society, it becomes something that concerns us because the conduct of employers is a big part of what sets the bar for morality in society

And also, money is a very effective insulator against detection/prosecution. He should have what he needs to survive and no more

The reason I doubt he is rehabilitated is because the evidence suggests a great deal of these people aren't - and those that have become less of a danger do so when they are caught and treated at an early age - this man was caught aged 19

[Sarah K]

How would you enforce someone only being able to work a minimum wage job? That doesn't make any sense at all, and isn't based in reality. What if he does a GREAT job at his minimum wage job, and gets promoted? See how silly this is? You're letting emotions get in the way of logic.

What I mean by it isn't up to us to decide if he is qualified is exactly that... This man won't be working with children. He will be cooking meat. It is up to the employer who wants to take a chance on him. Again, there are convicted pedophiles working in ALL KINDS of jobs, ALL OVER THE WORLD. To single this man out because a celebrity hired him is dumb.

There is sufficient evidence that points towards successful rehabilitation being achieved when the person is caught in their young adult life - which this man was. Will everyone be saved? Nope. But some will. And those people deserve second chances.

[Sutekh]

How would you enforce someone only being able to work a minimum wage job? That doesn't make any sense at all, and isn't based in reality. What if he does a GREAT job at his minimum wage job, and gets promoted? See how silly this is? You're letting emotions get in the way of logic.

No, you're just not thinking it through/giving me any credit - you put a note on their national insurance profile stating their limitation, and any employer will see that. Or upon offending, the NI number could be reassigned with a conspicuous difference to all others - for example everybody on such a register could have an NI number starting with a similar sequence of digits

Or you could make it so they can only apply for work through an intermediary... there's actually a great many ways to make such a system workable

And a great many jobs are dead-end with no prospect of promotion (this is news to you?). Service industry for example

What I mean by it isn't up to us to decide if he is qualified is exactly that... This man won't be working with children. He will be cooking meat. It is up to the employer who wants to take a chance on him. Again, there are convicted pedophiles working in ALL KINDS of jobs, ALL OVER THE WORLD. To single this man out because a celebrity hired him is dumb.

We aren't singling him out because his employer is a celebrity, we are singling him out because he is a rapist. The media has singled out his employer because he is a celebrity. You are so nearly saying his only crime is being associated with someone in the public eye

And I'm certain there are many sex offenders working in many positions all over the world... Don't you have a problem with that? That is the way it is but there's no reason I should just accept it - in fact I believe there's a moral imperative to challenge it

There is sufficient evidence that points towards successful rehabilitation being achieved when the person is caught in their young adult life - which this man was. Will everyone be saved? Nope. But some will. And those people deserve second chances.

If he can proven to be rehabilitated after a number of years then I would be up for lifting my restrictions on his employment, but what you're saying is we should just take a chance and if he re-offends, then that's just the price of preserving a rapist's liberty - to me that is just not important. Reduce the wealth and social mobility of someone like that and they are less likely to be able to buy discretion - or start a family

[Sarah K]

This is kind of veering WAY off of the topic, though. We're now venturing into a bizarre fantasy-land of what we think "should" happen to rapists. Which really doesn't matter.

This man isn't getting singled out because he is a rapist. He is getting singled out because a celebrity hired him. Period. There are millions of convicted rapists in the world who work. This man just happened to land a high profile job. He shouldn't be further punished for that.

[Sutekh]

So if he wasn't a rapist, he would still be getting singled out? Not making sense now I'm afraid

The eye is on him because his employer is famous, but he still did what he did and that's what I have a problem with

I have nothing else against Jamie... his scrumbling method for roast potatoes is the future

do you see what I mean? Of course we have noticed him because of his connection to Jamie, but we are having this discussion because he did what he did

OK he wouldn't be in the eye if it wasn't for Jamie, but he still did what he did and just because the media attention is unfair (sort of), doesn't mean he deserves a break

If you get caught with a bag of heroin up your ass and the cops only noticed you because you walked down the street with a naked person, does that mean you didn't have a bag of smack up your arse?

[Sarah K]

I don't think anybody is arguing that he did what he did?

We aren't having this discussion because he did what he did. Or the topic wouldn't have been only brought up when a celebrity hired him. If we aren't discussing him because of who his boss is, then I guess we need to bring up the millions of other child rapists who have been hired.

And as far as I know, he hasn't received a "break". He was sentenced in accordance with the law, and served his time.

[Sutekh]

He got 4 years and a nice job... asking your opinion, do you think that is just? That's what I mean by a break. Given that the system seemingly won't take his punishment seriously, society should pitch in and offer this guy the kind of opportunities he deserves. If he can go a few years cleaning toilets and living hand to mouth without cracking then review his case

And yes we do need to bring up those millions of others (and I suspect there are millions). Again I really don't get where you're coming from, are you saying we shouldn't have a debate about the ethics of punishment and reintegration of sex offenders because the hawkish media is the only reason the conversation is taking place? I agree it's diabolical that the media doesn't swoop on all the others but that doesn't make me feel like I'm in the wrong for discussing the issues and questions this example raises

I mean we only know about ISIS because of all the media coverage, should we in the interest of fairness ignore them and only discuss domestic terrorists. This logic doesn't work when you transpose it

[Sarah K]

No, I do not think that his punishment fit the crime. I already stated that. However, I DO believe that if a person admits their crime, and serves their sentence, they should be able to move on with their lives. I think that punishments should be harsher. I also believe in second chances.

Do you have some links you can provide for this(seriously)? I'm trying to look up information, and I'm not really finding too much that seems to be from actual sources.

Also, I read into this program, and it sounds like it is specifically targeted at young adults who have faced trouble in their lives. It also sounds like this man was completely honest about his past while applying for the program(and pleaded guilty during his trial). I dunno. I kinda wish that there were MORE programs like this. It actually sounds great! There are career counselors and therapists. It seems like a comprehensive life plan... So basically, he is receiving further rehabilitation.

[Sutekh]

The trouble is, an admission of guilt can be something prompted by insurmountable evidence, rather than good character or remorse... and really how much can a person have changed in the interim between the rape and the trial for the rape, and how good is their character to begin with, given the crime.

I do agree that a criminal who knows the game is up and pleads guilty to speed up the process and not waste public money should be thrown a bone, that shows they have some semblance of social responsibility. But again this kind of crime is different and their having committed it begin with says a lot about their attitude towards society - it's very different to say, a single mother who fiddles the books at work so her house doesn't get repossessed, and pleads guilty to a crime she committed out of necessity rather than a deep seated compulsion

I can get you absolutely everything on this fella but it will take a day or two

[DigitalChaos]

I spent waaaay too long looking for an image of Jamie Oliver holding a potato, this is the best I could do. I'M SORRY

[Sutekh]

Although you did find a picture with a pretty good description of him (above his name there)

[allegro]

I spent waaaay too long looking for an image of Jamie Oliver holding a potato, this is the best I could do. I'M SORRY

The guy doesn't know how to hold a BABY holy crap

[DigitalChaos]

hoooly shit that poor kid. I can just see the bounce while he walks D:
hopefully that was just a momentary thing while he switches arms or something...

[allegro]

[allegro]

I guess he mostly has the other kids hold the babies

[Sutekh]

They probably put the foot down!

[DigitalChaos]

This made me think of an interesting question.... Would people be giving him shit if he also decided to give this guy a place to live in his own house (same house as his 4 kids live)?

[Dra508]

hoooly shit that poor kid. I can just see the bounce while he walks D:
hopefully that was just a momentary thing while he switches arms or something...

Jaime, It's not a head of lettuce for FFS!


BTW, I was liked that drift about middle class. It seemed like an across the pond difference, but with this potato thread, I don't know where that piece of the convo went.