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Thread: Ferguson and general police misconduct

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by october_midnight View Post
    St. Louis release footage of Kajieme Powell killing that somewhat contradicts their original story.

    Warning: Graphic content...it's a video of a man being brutally gunned down, so yeah.....warning.

    Seems pretty fucked up to me, 9-10 rounds for a knife-wielding person, who could've easily been shot in the knee or with non-lethal force. Plus, you're gonna roll a body over and cuff it afterwards? wtf.
    Police officers are absolutely not trained to shoot a threat in the knee.....If a cop is shooting at you they are trying to kill you. That is the bottom line.

    If you want to watch what cops have to be prepared for feel free to watch the **GRAPHIC VIDEO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FIhQjfOYKk GRAPHIC VIDEO** that I soft linked.

  2. #32
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    @DigitalChaos technically, Trayvon Martin was a child because he was a minor, under 18. This Mike Brown guy was 18, so he had reached the age of majority so ...
    Last edited by allegro; 08-21-2014 at 04:46 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satyr View Post
    Police officers are absolutely not trained to shoot a threat in the knee.....If a cop is shooting at you they are trying to kill you. That is the bottom line.
    See this: http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5693020
    Last edited by allegro; 08-21-2014 at 04:50 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    Best article I've seen about the police militarization issue:
    http://www.steynonline.com/6524/cigars-but-not-close




    just a few of the points:
    - The Ferguson PD used as many bullets on Michael Brown as the Polizei used on ten million Germans.
    - The biggest government in the free world chooses not to keep statistics on how many people get shot by law enforcement.
    - A soldier wears green camo in Vietnam to blend in. A policeman wears green camo in Ferguson to stand out - to let you guys know: We're here, we're severe, get used to it.
    - When an unarmed shoplifter in T-shirt and shorts with a five-buck cigar box in one hand has to be shot dead, you're doing it wrong.
    Great article! Wait what about this part!?!? WTF

    "NOTE: Several readers have queried my use of the term "shoplifter", insisting that this was a "strongarm robbery", the phrase du jour. It's not clear whether, legally speaking, this was any kind of robbery, in the sense of a prosecutable crime: The store owner did not report any theft and did not volunteer the video as evidence. Instead, the Ferguson PD went to a judge to get a court order to make the store owner cough it up on the grounds that it might contain something useful to them.

    And then the chief says he had no choice but to release it because he was getting Freedom of Information requests for it. Which makes even less sense..."

  5. #35
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    People killed by police in the UK (pop: 64m) since January 2010: 3
    People killed by police in Canada (pop: 35m) since January 2010: 20
    People killed by police in Australia (pop: 23m) since January 2010: about 20 (my estimate using numbers from here)
    People killed by police in the US (pop: 318m) since January 2013 (I got tired and gave up counting): 419

  6. #36
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    That info is in the article that @DigitalChaos linked above

  7. #37
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    Thanks for that update, @DigitalChaos . Makes me feel slightly better.

    Anyone else disgusted by Holder hugging Johnson? This isn't a celebratory "We did it!" Moment. It's a "Let's figure out those who are responsible now, as in, right now!"
    Last edited by Swykk; 08-21-2014 at 08:04 AM.

  8. #38
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    Atlantic article about militarization of police

    http://m.theatlantic.com/national/ar...dition/378883/

  9. #39
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    I've read and seen (as I'm sure many of you have) where cops taze children and teens, for lesser reasons. I mean, those people talking in that video are right, the cops easily could've tazed Powell but why do that when you can just gun him down? He had a knife, so nothing will happen to those trigger happy dicks. That's the power of it that attracts the bullies (Officer Go Fuck Yourself).
    Did Powell deserve to be arrested? Probably. Rushing to lethal force when you have the distance and means to non lethal tactics? Unnecessary.
    And yes, @Satyr and @allegro are correct, if a cop is aiming a gun at you, it's never to wing you.
    Last edited by Swykk; 08-21-2014 at 08:05 AM.

  10. #40
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    I know Chicago cops, and they say they DON'T want to kill people; they would much rather just hurt you. Killing requires a lot more paperwork. But some situations require killing, and sometimes in a split second a rookie cop isn't going to make the right call, mostly due to lack of experience and training.

    Officer gofuckyourself obviously lacks training and experience; he also lacks good supervision and management.

    Look at the OTHER law enforcement officer who came over and pushed gofuckyourself's gun away from the crowd, and got gofuckyourself to move along. THAT guy knew what's up.
    Last edited by allegro; 08-21-2014 at 08:12 AM.

  11. #41
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  12. #42
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    Holy shit that's creepy!!!!!

  13. #43
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    I'm not really going to get involved in the coverup conspiracies or the cop hate on here because I think that should probably be in another thread but I'm going to just put my opinion on the actual events in Ferguson.

    It is entirely possible to explain the Michael Brown events in a rational and reasonable way that takes the known facts into account. No character assassination required.

    Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson were involved in a robbery. Johnson has fully admitted to this. We can't ignore this simply because we know the end result of the story - that a man lost his life- and it's irresponsible to try to draw the conclusion that the punishment for cigar theft is execution. The fact that Brown used intimidation and force to shoplift makes it a robbery instead of shoplifting or petty theft. The dollar amount doesn't matter if you use force or intimidation. You don't get away with robbery if you threaten somebody and steal their empty wallet. Disagree if you like, but that is the law. (If the case went to court, he would most likely end up getting probation because obviously it's not all that violent or dangerous)
    Brown and Johnson left the store and walked down the street.
    The PO saw two kids walking down the street.
    At this point it is important to emphasize who knew what information.
    Brown and Johnson: We were involved in a robbery.
    Officer: Kids are walking in the street.
    What matters is that they knew they were involved and the Officer didn't.
    Here's a secret: people don't like to go to jail.
    So, if you just committed a crime and a Police car drives up to you, you're going to assume that the police have arrived because of what you just did.
    Facts get very muddy around this point in the story. But that doesn't mean that the Officer is some racist renegade hell bent on enforcing his twisted view of the law by executing an unarmed cigar thief.
    It suggests is that the Officer felt threatened enough to defend himself. It suggests that Brown and Johnson knew something that the officer didn't and the situation escalated to the point of no return.
    Whichever spin you put on the narrative (violent thugs rob gas station, gentle giant, racist cop, hero cop, execution, self defense, character assassination, presentation of facts, etc...) I truly feel that this situation boils down to the imbalance of available information. The young men had more information than the officer - they knew that they committed a crime. The officer did not. When people offer that the cop stopped them without even knowing they were involved (often cited as evidence that the Officer did something wrong - "HE DIDNT EVEN KNOW THEY WERE INVOLVED!") I offer that that was the exact problem, but for different reasons. If the Officer did in fact know that they were suspects, he wouldn't have tried to contact them by himself. Police Training 101: Call For Back-Up. Perhaps in this case, calling for back-up should apply even if you think you're stopping some kids for jaywalking. But alas, hindsight is not a luxury afforded those of us that live in the present.
    It simply comes down to the fact that they knew more than he did. He wasn't planning on killing an unarmed man that day.
    To summarize:
    Robbery occurs (merchandise stolen is irrelevant bc of force and intimidation)
    Two men walk down street (knowing they were involved)
    Officer encounters men (not knowing they were involved)
    Men don't want to be arrested (officer doesn't know he's supposed to arrest men and men don't know he doesn't know)
    < struggle of some sort >
    Officer felt struggle warranted deadly force
    Say what you will about racial profiling, institutional racism, the community response, and the police response. Those ideas are very important and should be discussed, but they don't influence or change the known facts known to us at this very moment.

  14. #44
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    When I was growing up in the UK, my understanding was that a police officer is allowed to shoot someone if that person is shooting at them and their own life is in danger. Nothing less.

    Where did this character of the terrified police officer come from, who shoots first and asks questions later?

    Also, I would think police depts would be at the forefront of campaigning for gun control, but that doesn't seem to be the case. A police officer in the UK, for example, can safely assume that most citizens are not carrying a gun, but in the US it seems that the assumption is that everyone is armed, thus creating a scenario of jumpy and trigger-happy cops who shoot and kill innocent people because they are scared of being shot.

  15. #45
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    I really wish I didn't click "view post."

    So very wrong. Willful ignorance? Trolling? Both? Either way, it's a tired act with huge holes poked in it. You can view pretty much all of the other posts here and pick that bullshit apart.
    Last edited by Swykk; 08-21-2014 at 09:56 AM.

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swykk View Post
    I really wish I didn't click "view post."

    So very wrong. Willful ignorance? Trolling? Both? Either way, it's a tired act with huge holes poked in it.

    Maybe you could throw up links like on your Facebook...so you know, we can see your "source material?"
    You're not capable of having an adult conversation without throwing out personal attacks. The adults come here and have discussions, you post videos and say "LOL FERGUSONS FINEST" and contribute nothing. I'm choosing not to engage you at all because nothing good will come of it. We need a conspiracy theory/cop block thread to put you in so you don't poison legitimate conversations in threads like this one.

  17. #47
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    Tony, the Chief of Police already held a 2nd press conference to revise his 1st press conference to make clear that the officers in fact knew absolutely nothing about a robbery, saw no evidence of a robbery, and were not talking to these two men due to any alleged robbery. At the time of the shooting, the store owner had not reported a robbery. It was not until after Brown was dead that this robbery came to light and, again, the store owner did not consider it serious enough to report it to police. The video we see was obtained via court order by police, as a character assassination.
    Last edited by allegro; 08-21-2014 at 09:58 AM.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Tony, the Chief of Police already held a 2nd press conference to revise his 1st press conference to make clear that the officers in fact knew absolutely nothing about a robbery, saw no evidence of a robbery, and were not taking to these two men due to any alleged robbery.
    The officers didn't know anything about a robbery, I thought I made it very clear that the officers involved in the altercation knew nothing about any suspected crime taking place beforehand.

    I'm not sure though if we're debating on whether or not the robbery took place, but like I said earlier Dorian admitted to it.
    http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local...bery/14118769/
    Last edited by tony.parente; 08-21-2014 at 09:59 AM.

  19. #49
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    Even if they DID rob the store(which, as far as I know, we DON'T KNOW YET), it is irrelevant to what happened.

    This is EXACTLY WHY they didn't release the name of the officer until they had this. It puts a shitty fucking spin on it, and it makes people wrongfully think that somehow the murder was justified. Lame.

  20. #50
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    Right. I'm the problem. Not you! All of my posts in this thread got face palms and nobody thinks what I'm saying holds water...oh wait, the opposite is true.

    That one video you're referencing got that asshole put off duty, hopefully fired. It wasn't an LOL moment, either. It was an example of what I've been saying. I'm backing up my statements. You should try doing the same.

    For dropping "adult" on me, you sure do exhibit a child's naivete.
    Last edited by Swykk; 08-21-2014 at 10:21 AM.

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony.parente View Post
    The officers didn't know anything about a robbery, I thought I made it very clear that the officers involved in the altercation knew nothing about any suspected crime taking place beforehand.
    You didn't make anything clear. That was a convoluted and pointless post containing zero legal bullet points. A 5 dollar box of cigars was missing. Any criminal legal expert is going to confirm that nobody is going to look suspicious while near their own apt holding a 5 dollar box of swishers. He probably had more illegal pot in his system.

    Bigger question: why does it appear that such a large black population has such a WHITE police force? With a SWAT team?

    You are making defensive assumptions, here, none of which assume that perhaps this department has SWAT gear and tanks but should have spent money on squad car cameras; that these cops clearly need better training; that it is entirely possible that this cop fucked up, and now he should be charged and face a jury of his peers; that police are not above the law.
    Last edited by allegro; 08-21-2014 at 10:08 AM.

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    You didn't make anything clear. That was a convoluted and pointless post containing zero legal bullet points. A 5 dollar box of cigars was missing. Any criminal legal expert is going to confirm that nobody is going to look suspicious while near their own apt holding a 5 dollar box of swishers. He probably had more illegal pot in his system.

    Bigger question: why does it appear that such a large black population has such a WHITE police force? With a SWAT team?
    Robbery occurs (merchandise stolen is irrelevant bc of force and intimidation)
    Two men walk down street (knowing they were involved)
    Officer encounters men (not knowing they were involved)
    Men don't want to be arrested (officer doesn't know he's supposed to arrest men and men don't know he doesn't know)
    < struggle of some sort >
    Officer felt struggle warranted deadly force
    I thought this portion made it pretty clear that the officer did not know of the suspected robbery. And just because the shop owner didn't feel as though the crime was large enough to press charges didn't change the fact that a strong armed robbery took place. I'm not intending the robbery to be the main focus of this conversation, it's only important in my eyes because Mike and Dorian knew they committed a crime, thought the officer who stopped them knew even though the officer did not. That's the ONLY relevance to the situation in my opinion. I think everything I spoke about is something we can all agree upon, if it's not I can go and spend 45 minutes and gather the main news sources and annotate them.

  23. #53
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    You made ASSUMPTIONS, there. Men don't want to be arrested. We do not know that. The witnesses said the police yelled at the men to get out of thr street.

    And when this goes to trial, a robbery may not even be allowed as admissable evidence.

    The "crime" that was committed was the police officer's, not the victim's.
    Last edited by allegro; 08-21-2014 at 10:17 AM.

  24. #54
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    @allegro Not to mention, though I DID MENTION IT, that it is NOT procedure to try and apprehend a suspect from your vehicle.
    Last edited by Swykk; 08-21-2014 at 10:20 AM. Reason: Because WHY? Really.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    You made ASSUMPTIONS, there. Men don't want to be arrested. We do not know that. The witnesses said the police yelled at the men to get out of the street.
    Every witness account, the ones who said mike attacked the officer and the ones who said the officer tried to pull mike into the vehicle all say he ran after the scuffle in the police vehicle. I don't think it's an assumption that Mike tried to flee to avoid arrest, unless you feel that he was fleeing to avoid assault from the cop and depending on your view on what happened I guess that's a fair route to take as well.

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    The scuffle happened AFTER the cops saw the two men walking in the middle of the street, and the cops yelled get the fuck out of the middle of the street.

    The newest witness, the one with video footage, confirmed that there was a shot that came from inside the squad car, then the guys ran, then the cop shot at Brown from behind.

    And all of this would have been captured on the squad car's camera had the city sprung for that instead of SWAT gear and tanks.

    You do know how many innocent people die every year due to unnecessary and ridiculous high speed police chases, which are now falling out of favor nationwide mostly due to public outrage.

    That shooting occurred in broad daylight. In an apartment complex. Filled with children. Hell, in nearly every interview I've seen at the scene, there were little children going in and out of buildings.

    Seasoned police veterans generally don't make that kind of dangerous call. This cop fucked up. We should not vilify all cops for it. But we should learn lessons from it. Change should come from it.
    Last edited by allegro; 08-21-2014 at 10:29 AM.

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    The scuffle happened AFTER the cops saw the two men walking in the middle of the street, and the cops yelled get the fuck out of the middle of the street.

    The newest witness, the one with video footage, confirmed that there was a shot that came from inside the squad car, then the guys ran, then the cop shot at Brown from behind.

    And all of this would have been captured on the squad car's camera had the city sprung for that instead of SWAT gear and tanks.

    You do know how many innocent people die every year due to unnecessary and ridiculous high speed police chases, which are now falling out of favor nationwide mostly due to public outrage.
    To be fair it's an assumption that the cop screamed at the kids to get the fuck out of the street due to conflicting stories by various witness'. Also I would imagine that the police cruiser indeed had video surveillance recording at least the audio of what happened, but from what officials said nothing is going to be released in regards to evidence until after the whole court thing. (I'm not a fan of that AT ALL) Also I am very aware of many, many instances of police profiling of african americans and the wrongful deaths due to police negligence (the killing of that producer from tosh.o comes to mind) and while we have to take into account the obvious history of blacks being persecuted we have to be as level headed about what we know as possible.

    And I know you were referencing the tanks and squat gear at the protest but those have to relevance to the incident itself.

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    It is relevant in that it shows where they spent their Federal defense dollars. They should have spent it on cheap squad car cameras. If they HAVE footage, they would have released it by now (instead of the store footage); they don't, which is why they released the desperate store footage.

    The police union is protecting its own at expense of public safety.

    The good news is that a grand jury has been called and is meeting every Wednesday; it may take until October to reach a decision whether or not to indict but it should make the Brown family feel better.

    Conflicting witness accounts is Law School 101. That happens all the time. Nobody remembers things correctly. Not even cops. Which is why the grand jury will use forensics, medical, physical, all kinds of data in addition to witness accounts.
    Last edited by allegro; 08-21-2014 at 10:45 AM.

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    It is relevant in that it shows where they spent their Federal defense dollars. They should have spent it on cheap squad car cameras. If they HAVE footage, they would have released it by now (instead of the store footage); they don't, which is why they released the desperate store footage.
    Here's what I think we can all agree on:
    I'm not a fan of the timing in regards to the releasing of the video, I DO feel as though they released it to paint a bad picture of Mike in the media.
    I don't think that swat gear and other militarized weaponry was needed at all until the protesters started shooting at cops and throwing molotov cocktails at them.
    There are many, many cops involved in the protests that acted extremely inappropriately and should either be fired or severely reprimanded (who points a gun at a complacent protester and says they're going to kill them?)
    Sarah said at her rally in NYC there were police helicopters flying, that is stupid as hell and a large waste of resources.
    If the police officer had a camera on his person either A. He would be rightfully charged with the murder of an unarmed teen who was surrendering or B. We would be talking about how Mike assaulted the officer, reached for his gun and charged him and he had to regretfully defend himself.
    It is possible that the officer involved overreacted and shot Mike in a situation that did not warrant it.
    It is possible (though very less likely in my opinon) that the officer felt like he had an excuse to kill a (in his racist eyes) black kid walking in the middle of the street.

    I don't think anything that happened after the shooting is relevant to the shooting itself. The only events that I feel are relevant is the second that Mike and Dorian walked into that convenience store to the moment mikes heart stopped beating. Everything else is a separate issue that has it's own problems and solutions.

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    Now, having been in law for 26 years, I can say that the relevant timing is the altercation between the officers and Brown. What happened before is not relevant.

    This thread is not ONLY about this one case and this one guy. It is about the fucking SWAT teams that came out after, too. It's about the militarization of police forces across the country, using Federal tax dollars. You don't get to narrow the focus. This mess we are seeing on TV is just one example of a systemic problem, a growing epidemic. It's racism, yes. But it's also militarization of police. It's giving absolute power to police. Look at that shit that happened in Boston. To white people. Sure, terrororists are bad. But two fucking days of 10 miles of lockdown was fucking nuts.

    Did you see that statistic? 419 people killed by police in 2013? And we don't think, wow, that seems like a lot?
    Last edited by allegro; 08-21-2014 at 11:09 AM.

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