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Thread: Europe lurches to the Right

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    The turnout hasn't been this low in decades. I don't know if the official numbers exist yet, but I was seeing some estimates saying as far back as ~50 years.


    It's amazing that everyone can see the recurring pattern of Russian interference and become outraged, but the pattern of the candidates that citizens are forced to choose between...? nah, its not a conspiracy. that's just "how it is" guys! Nevermind the fact that it occurs in different countries with different voting systems and different political landscapes...
    The number I saw for the turnout in France is 74%; and since we're comparing global patterns against the USA, that is still 10% more French votes per capita than turned out for America's election of Obama in 2008 (which was the highest turnout in the USA for decades). Regarding your second point; this was the final round of a runoff ballot, where the options had already fallen away to the two front runners only. So the 'pattern' here that you hate is... what exactly? Having to choose?

  2. #212
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    Primaries aren't comparable to a general runoff. The majority of French voters chose those two candidates over everyone else, and then chose between them. In that scenario, moderate status-quo centrism wins, and I'm not jumping for joy about it, but I totally understand why and it's not because banks rule everything.

  3. #213
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    As we are still part of europe right now, the current exit polls point to a hung parliament in the UK.
    A slight shudder to the left.. but I'm not getting my hopes up.

  4. #214
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    Hung parliaments are my jam.

  5. #215
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    Hey-oh! Well that was a turn up for the books! A well hung parliament.
    While I should cite my sources other than Twitter, word on the street is there was a massive youth / under 25 turn out, and would you look at that, they don't like the Conservatives nor the idea of 5 more years...
    In liberal/Labour terms, this was pretty much the best result they could hope for... Wonder what happens next? Don't want to get my hopes up again...

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by liquidcalm View Post
    Hey-oh! Well that was a turn up for the books! A well hung parliament.
    While I should cite my sources other than Twitter, word on the street is there was a massive youth / under 25 turn out, and would you look at that, they don't like the Conservatives nor the idea of 5 more years...
    In liberal/Labour terms, this was pretty much the best result they could hope for... Wonder what happens next? Don't want to get my hopes up again...
    In the meantime article 50 has been triggered, now we've already lost 3 months and the Tories will have another leadership contest, more dithering. Can't we just give up brexit as a bad job? I honestly don't think people gung ho for brexit realised how shit our politicians are.

    Although UKIP no seats, hah so there is a bright side

  7. #217
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    Coalition with the DUP. This is BAD.

  8. #218
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    Very much a day of ups and downs. Personally I'm thrilled to see how successful Labour and Corbyn have been, and I'm particularly happy that my home constituency has a Labour MP for the first time ever. No lurching to the right there!

    But yes, a Tory deal with DUP is not a positive step. I was hoping there would be enough for a Labour / SNP / Lib Dem coalition, but I guess that's not happening now. I'm very much against 'Brexit' (ughh), but if it does have to happen I'd like to see sensible cross-party negotiations that can lead to a reasonably positive outcome. What are the chances of that though?

    Great to see UKIP effectively finished, and interesting to see SNP losing out quite badly - I still don't know what happened there.

    What I'm really happy about though is seeing the right wing press failing so miserably to get their side in a majority, despite huge amounts of scaremongering against Corbyn. Sadly we have to include the BBC in that, and not just Murdoch and friends. Maybe we'll see some lessons learned, even if we are still dealing with a difficult outcome. The stories of high turnouts across the country, with particular focus on the engagement of 18-25 year olds, is also very positive.

  9. #219
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    I thought the weirdest thing about the results which not many have mentioned in the media was seeing the Conservatives resurrected in Scotland...best for them in Scotland since 1983.
    This was unimaginable 10 years ago..a tory was seen as subhuman..justvshows the lengths people are willing to go to avoid a second referendum. SNP would do so much better. If they stopped focusing on independence and only on devolved power.
    i can see why Labour gained ground...although i think Corbyns vision is too utopian and cant stand his team around him he is 100 percent genuine and really got people excited...
    i was amazed at how Robotic and boring and uninspiring Theresa May was...she was a worse campaigner than Hillary Clinton.

  10. #220
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    yup... saw that coalition happening once the last results were coming in. Dreadful how they cling in there by jumping into bed with some of the most hateful MPs. now at the very least, the opposition is in a position to oppose, its not great, but it doesn't take much for this government to fail at pushing bills, now if only that ol proportional representation thing had come in... Labour, LD, SNP, PC together outnumber the right wing parties in terms of votes, thats something to be proud of.

  11. #221
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    I guess this could have gone a lot worse. May has hobbled herself unnecessarily, and Labour has seen a surge of support.
    Makes me think of Bernie Sanders a bit: popular passion, a surge of enthusiasm, ultimately lost, conservatives still in power.
    Conservatives still have a majority, they are still the biggest party in the UK by 57 seats. People are still voting to the right in these times of economic turbulence.

  12. #222
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  13. #223
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    France has been under a state of emergency for 2 years, there are men with scary machine guns outside every iconic Paris tourist spot, the UK is spending billions on its security apparatus because it has to try and save lives, this money could be going to poor people.
    Most of the UK and Frances multiculturalism is good but there are problems Poland does not want to deal with the problems,

    Poland is a very homogenous society all of Eastern Europe is, Joseph Stalin forcefully deported and rearranged Eastern Europe among ethnic lines, Poland is 98 percent Polish, Hungary is 98 percent Hungarian

    its totally different to the western mindset, Poland adores Western Europe and the UK, and France but cannot understand its tolerance for people who want to kill them, remember Poland was under both Nazi and Soviet occupation for 50 years, millions died, they hate totalitrainism of any form.
    West Europe Is very different from Eastern Europe

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exocet View Post
    France has been under a state of emergency for 2 years, there are men with scary machine guns outside every iconic Paris tourist spot, the UK is spending billions on its security apparatus because it has to try and save lives, this money could be going to poor people.
    Most of the UK and Frances multiculturalism is good but there are problems Poland does not want to deal with the problems,

    Poland is a very homogenous society all of Eastern Europe is, Joseph Stalin forcefully deported and rearranged Eastern Europe among ethnic lines, Poland is 98 percent Polish, Hungary is 98 percent Hungarian

    its totally different to the western mindset, Poland adores Western Europe and the UK, and France but cannot understand its tolerance for people who want to kill them, remember Poland was under both Nazi and Soviet occupation for 50 years, millions died, they hate totalitrainism of any form.
    West Europe Is very different from Eastern Europe
    I am originally from Poland and still have many family and friends there. I understand the culture and the current situation. The culture there is totally homogenized and its history makes a lot of people very resistant to anything that might be viewed as an "invading" force... whether the threat is rational or not. This is nothing new. What is a huge problem there right now is the ruling government who can only be described as Trump like but even more so. They are very much playing on the fears of people when it comes to open borders, Russia, and constantly label their opponents as traitors (this includes cyclists and vegetarians). They have taken over the nation's news outlets and the news hour is an incredible example of propaganda. My biggest gripe is what they are doing to the country and how much damage they can still do with their remaining 2-3 years (Although chances of their re election is high). One of those things includes that they do not directly address these far right factions while blatantly taking action against the opposition of the far right which also happens to be their opposition... Although they did block Richard Spencer from entering the country.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfte View Post
    I am originally from Poland and still have many family and friends there. I understand the culture and the current situation. The culture there is totally homogenized and its history makes a lot of people very resistant to anything that might be viewed as an "invading" force... whether the threat is rational or not. This is nothing new. What is a huge problem there right now is the ruling government who can only be described as Trump like but even more so. They are very much playing on the fears of people when it comes to open borders, Russia, and constantly label their opponents as traitors (this includes cyclists and vegetarians). They have taken over the nation's news outlets and the news hour is an incredible example of propaganda. My biggest gripe is what they are doing to the country and how much damage they can still do with their remaining 2-3 years (Although chances of their re election is high). One of those things includes that they do not directly address these far right factions while blatantly taking action against the opposition of the far right which also happens to be their opposition... Although they did block Richard Spencer from entering the country.
    I agree there is definitely stuff to worry about the Polish government, its not gone full authoritarian yet however its made a dramatic shift to the right, I think stuff like Trump and Brexit may have galvanized them.

    I think they are starting to see the EU as an occupying force, its not just Poland its Hungary of course and Czech Republic, Baltic states, feel like the EU is trying to impose something on them they don't want, the EU did not fully understand the rather big cultural differences when they joined in 2004, i think its great they joined the EU, but there is definetly a growing East West divide in the EU.

  16. #226
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    Our prime minister bashed the West once more a few days ago with some really strong words. I don't want to quote snippets out of context, you can probably find translations if you want to. Our minister of defence even quoted Donald Trump.

    Anyway, it is extremely likely that they will win the election again next year by a large margin and that means a right government for at least 2022. No party could win three times in a row since the establishment of the Third Republic (1989). The left is a joke and they are in shambles. The biggest leftist party was already fading into obscurity when they put all their credibility in their agenda for preventing and later calling for demolishing the fence at our border and advocating the help of immigrants. An absolute disaster, as that fence will probably be the most well-received decision of this government's current term. As a leftist, you have like 5 or 6 alternatives to choose from, thus the end result being a bunch of votes going into the void. The left can't create a working coalition for nearly 8 years now to save their lives.

    A more interesting thing is that our right wing government absolutely schooled the far right as well. During the immigrant-crisis, the far right tried their best to pull ahead with their hate-train, but they are absolute garbage politicians. Except their leader, who - seeing how being racist fucks does not work - tried to consolidate his party, basically mimicking our prime minister's. So now even the far right is being fractured, while the leader can't compete with Orbán. When our prime minister implies that you are homosexual through a joke, and states it as a fact that you are being a bitch (pretty much an exact translation; bitch as in servant) of Soros, and you can't make a good comeback... Yeah, then you are doomed.

    The propaganda machine is in "can't stop, won't stop" mode for like 3 years now. Anti-Soros advertisements and questionnaires are plastered EVERYWHERE, absolutely insufferable. But it works, because if you would try to look at the West for help or guidance, all you see are headless chickens. What's happening here is the failure of the EU.

    Also, the fucked up peace-treaties after WW2 pretty much made Central- and Eastern-Europe extremely prone to right wing influence. This area's suffering from nationalism related problems has been historic, but when you blindly chop up countries with an "it'll do" mentality, you are just asking for trouble down the line.

  17. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by slave2thewage View Post
    Coalition with the DUP. This is BAD.
    Not just bad, a threat to national security - whitehall has to be an impartial broker in the good Friday agreement. How can it fulfil that role when it's in coalition with one side and bunging them money?

    Accentuate the positive - it's another crack in the Tory edifice

  18. #228
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    The Hungarian elections are over. People predicted that Fidesz can bleed, but only if many people will show up to cast their votes, so we had a never to be seen campaign, which boiled down to "just vote". We almost broke a record in attendance rate, so people from the opposition were opening champagnes. The result? Fidesz demolished everyone and they've regained their 2/3 in the parliament, which they had lost 3 years ago.

    Heads are rolling right now from the opposition. 4 years too late, but hey, at least it's happening.

  19. #229
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    Britain's home secretary Amber Rudd resigns over immigration scandal: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/home-se...rush-1.4640955

  20. #230
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    Looks like some Italians feel nostalgic for Mussolini:

    https://qz.com/993672/a-controversia...-fascist-past/

    He has a pretty nice shrine were he is entombed. I am sort of surprised that there is this revisionist history for that monster.

  21. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhettButler View Post
    Looks like some Italians feel nostalgic for Mussolini:

    https://qz.com/993672/a-controversia...-fascist-past/

    He has a pretty nice shrine were he is entombed. I am sort of surprised that there is this revisionist history for that monster.
    Goddamnit. Haven't they learned what happened in the past? The Germans have a zero-tolerance policy towards Nazism and will beat the shit out of anyone who does a Nazi salute.

  22. #232
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    This is a pretty chilling read...

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...germany-saxony

  23. #233
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    Brexit deal agreed!

    we be fucked

  24. #234
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    2 Ministers resign over the deal which will send us up shit creek without a fucking boat let alone paddle!!

  25. #235
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    From our PM...

    "We can choose to leave with no deal, or have no Brexit at all"

    THEN HAVE NO BREXIT THEN YOU FUCKING LUNATIC!

  26. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haysey View Post
    2 Ministers resign over the deal which will send us up shit creek without a fucking boat let alone paddle!!
    Yeah but they’re resigning because we’re not crashing out without a deal - does anyone have a more smackable face than Jacob Rees Mogg?

  27. #237
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    As an ignorant American, I for one felt that there should have been a second stay / leave vote. The articles I was reading here in the states back when you voted seemed to portray a sense of instant regret. People saying they voted leave as a joke because they thought there was no way it would happen. People who voted leave and then found out within days that they had been brazenly lied to about what it actually meant. Years later, I've still never gotten the sense that leaving is what any significant portion of you want. Am I just totally misinformed?

  28. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by theimage13 View Post
    As an ignorant American, I for one felt that there should have been a second stay / leave vote. The articles I was reading here in the states back when you voted seemed to portray a sense of instant regret. People saying they voted leave as a joke because they thought there was no way it would happen. People who voted leave and then found out within days that they had been brazenly lied to about what it actually meant. Years later, I've still never gotten the sense that leaving is what any significant portion of you want. Am I just totally misinformed?
    i don’t even know where to begin in answering this. I know someone personally who voted Leave because of the promises of much more money for the NHS (she’s a nurse and I think she’s changed her mind now, she’s also a mother to mixed race kids so was quite upset to be thought of as racist). But after reading about the Cambridge Analytica Facebook scandal, I think we should at least have another vote. I thought the Remain campaign was rubbish too, it was more based on trying to make people scared of the consequences of leaving rather than why we should stay in the EU, and try to dispel the endless myths about the EU peddled by the tabloid press for forty years, really negative campaigning whereas the leave campaign was full of ‘we can have our cake and eat it’ bollocks and terrible Facebook bot campaigning with aggressive racism (but the official campaign could disassociate itself from this even though we know now these campaign groups were all interlinked). Anyway sorry I’m rambling, I’d like to think people have changed their mind, but maybe I’m just stuck in a liberal bubble only really associating with people who think like me

  29. #239
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    does anyone else not think that the EU's ultimate goal is a Untied States of Europe? I voted to remain, but its not clear what the EU is about anymore.
    also it mostly seems to revolve around France and Germany, this is the main reason why it formed, it was a way for them to neutralize one another. and stop killing one another, this never had to involve the UK really. we were protected by English channel. escaped same level of devastation.
    but this whole thing is never mentioned. and now you have Italy feeling all left out and rebelling.
    I wish the whole project was more transparent

    so I do get why people want to escape it. but at the same time, I could not be bothered with this clusterfuck we are dealing with now.
    if the EU were to Unite it would be a superpower overnight, 600 million people, 20 trillion economy. centre of the world.
    but if that's what its about be honest..

  30. #240
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    it's just a series of trade arrangements.

    The main reason people voted to leave - and seriously don't waste time with people bleating otherwise - was immigration. But you can opt out of free movement and take a few penalties - as Denmark does. We are chucking the baby out with the bathwater because daft people got hoodwinked by tabloids and social media

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