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Thread: Europe lurches to the Right

  1. #61
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    The London Mayor issued some nice reassurance to Europeans living in London
    https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/746329838307282945

    The thing is if the Europeans working in the UK had been allowed to vote we'd probably still be in the EU. It's a travesty they weren't to be honest
    Last edited by WorzelG; 06-24-2016 at 08:47 AM.

  2. #62
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    Forgive my naivety, but what are any potential upsides to this?

  3. #63
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    None that I can see. It was a self-destructive protest vote largely about immigration, mostly by old people who will not have to live with its consequences.
    Socialists trying to spin it as a victory for workers against teh evil neoliberal machine are clutching at straws, Greek people happy at the EU being weakened are understandable, but when you're on the same page as Golden Dawn, then you should be worried.

  4. #64
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    I agree with @aggrogulture . I can see factors which might lessen the impact and make it not as bad as we think, but no real positive. It's an isolationist backwards step. I just hope other countries realise nigh on half of us didnt want this and go easy on us!
    There is one thing though, I believe Norway and Iceland are part of the European economic area and allow free trade and movement of people. I hope we end up like that

  5. #65
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    Man, fuck this country.
    I don't understand how such an even, even if it is 'slightly' more in favour of such a huge shift, split should have such an effect on us all. LOL Politricks!
    Yes it's very reactionary, but I've begun looking for work abroad because frankly I don't feel welcome in my own country, so I might as well go elsewhere and at least experience new things and feel the same.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by liquidcalm View Post
    LOL Politricks!
    IMO this referendum is a perfect example of a few things: 1) political questions like this are way too complex to just vote "YES" or "NO"; 2) too many people don't know shit about those questions to the extent that they can't even see the consequences or simply don't care about them; 3) too many people fall prey for opportunists who stear up fears with wrong information or straight up lies;

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by liquidcalm View Post
    Man, fuck this country.
    I don't understand how such an even, even if it is 'slightly' more in favour of such a huge shift, split should have such an effect on us all. LOL Politricks!
    Yes it's very reactionary, but I've begun looking for work abroad because frankly I don't feel welcome in my own country, so I might as well go elsewhere and at least experience new things and feel the same.
    This is my problem. It seems that democracy means half the country is forced into this situation. Someone suggested it would have seemed fairer if leave had had to get a 60% majority. At least that would have felt decisive. (And since they are the ones wanting change from the status quo they should have to get more of a majority)

  8. #68
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    I had no idea the exit vote even had a chance... this is shocking.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorzelG View Post
    This is my problem. It seems that democracy means half the country is forced into this situation. Someone suggested it would have seemed fairer if leave had had to get a 60% majority. At least that would have felt decisive. (And since they are the ones wanting change from the status quo they should have to get more of a majority)
    Indeed, but now instead of making this argument the 'Remain' camp.. who represent over 17 million people seems to be like \_(ツ)_/
    Like, I concede that there are over 50%, but it was only two options, and it is currently dragging the other 17million with them. It's fucking crazy in fact. And what do I see in the media but some hand stroking of 'there there, accept it and lets all learn to get on'.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by r_z View Post
    IMO this referendum is a perfect example of a few things: 1) political questions like this are way too complex to just vote "YES" or "NO"; 2) too many people don't know shit about those questions to the extent that they can't even see the consequences or simply don't care about them; 3) too many people fall prey for opportunists who stear up fears with wrong information or straight up lies;
    Also the British press is absolutely toxic and spewing out racist scaremongering shit for months, beyond what they normally do

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by liquidcalm View Post
    Indeed, but now instead of making this argument the 'Remain' camp.. who represent over 17 million people seems to be like \_(ツ)_/
    Like, I concede that there are over 50%, but it was only two options, and it is currently dragging the other 17million with them. It's fucking crazy in fact. And what do I see in the media but some hand stroking of 'there there, accept it and lets all learn to get on'.
    It's too late to change the rules of the referendum. What would you suggest they do now?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by WorzelG View Post
    The thing is if the Europeans working in the UK had been allowed to vote we'd probably still be in the EU. It's a travesty they weren't to be honest

    A travesty really? Wow, how do you believe that? Sorry I don't follow that logic at all. I'm not aware of anywhere else this works? (Please do correct me if I'm wrong - i probably am!)


    Quote Originally Posted by WorzelG View Post
    This is my problem. It seems that democracy means half the country is forced into this situation. Someone suggested it would have seemed fairer if leave had had to get a 60% majority. At least that would have felt decisive. (And since they are the ones wanting change from the status quo they should have to get more of a majority)
    You seem to be suggesting the rules of democracy should be re-written just to end up with the result you want? And if the 'out' vote had got 60% no doubt you'd be saying 'should have been 70%'

    Would it have been OK if the vote had been the other way, and 49% of the voting population wanted to leave?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggroculture View Post
    It's too late to change the rules of the referendum. What would you suggest they do now?
    It seems like clutching at straws but its not legally binding to actually do it, the majority of parliament was for Remain, including the whole 'opposition'. The laws will need replacing which has to go through them. So. Talk to your MPs.
    A lot of people seem shocked by the fact that people have already lost jobs, our money has lost well over 10% of its value and no-one seems to know where the 'savings' are going to come from. I'd want to see another referendum in a months time, like the are you sure button when you accidently close Word. But what do I know, I'm a fucking bleeding heart liberal.

  14. #74
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    Looks like nobody in control of this thing actually thought it would end up this way.
    If they'd thought they'd actually lose...maybe they wouldn't have called the referendum to begin with, which would have been the better option.

    What baffles me is: why did the UK re-elect Cameron on a landslide victory last year only to crush him now?

    Also: I totally support Scotland seceding and staying in the EU, and Ireland FINALLY uniting. RIP the UK. I guess it was time.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rossva View Post
    You seem to be suggesting the rules of democracy should be re-written just to end up with the result you want? And if the 'out' vote had got 60% no doubt you'd be saying 'should have been 70%'

    Would it have been OK if the vote had been the other way, and 49% of the voting population wanted to leave?
    It just seems such a tiny mandate to do something so momentous. There's no going back from this. I wish they'd thought it through and put the 60% in to begin with

  16. #76
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    Democracy must be respected. There are videos and articles describing all the advantages of an EU-free Great Britain. Check 'em out.

  17. #77
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    Like being freed from the laws and trade constraints that they'll have to comply to anyway if they want to continue to trade with the EU, except that now they'll have none of the benefits coming from their former position?

  18. #78
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    Exactly. The idea that EU will give them better trade deals after being given the finger is delusional bullshit.

  19. #79
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    I don't think anyone thought that. The question is whether we'd be able to have freer trade and emigration agreements with nations outside the EU, now we're able to negotiate our own deals. Not sure whether there's any basis to that - my mum's under the impression that we had to cut ties in those aspects with Commonwealth countries when we joined the EU, but I haven't been able to find anything supporting that.

    I wonder if there's any possibility of a second referendum before any formal arrangements are made, if new systems in the EU emerge (which may happen given the high possibility of other countries moving to secede). Scotland are trying for another UK referendum already, afterall...

  20. #80
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    I feel like a large part of my identity has been ripped away from me. Politically I think we will end up with some kind of EEA agreement (which, basically, we may as well have remained) but it's so disheartening to know how many people think in this country (the vast majority of leavers were English).

    I live in a constituency that voted overwhelmingly for Remain; everyone in London looks so depressed today. I have to do the Pride parade in 12 hours but I'm losing my fucks.

    My mum only moved to the UK because she couldn't get a job in France. I'm currently grateful I at least have an African passport too.

    Quote Originally Posted by aggroculture View Post
    why did the UK re-elect Cameron on a landslide victory last year only to crush him now?
    Because the UK are 60% illiterate fucktards that believe anything Rupert Murdoch tell them and think the Empire still exist. We are America's Dad and our only redeeming feature was our European wife who we've now decided to divorce but still want to be friends with benefits and get blowjobs from every other day.




    Last edited by icklekitty; 06-24-2016 at 05:21 PM.

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggroculture View Post
    Also: I totally support Scotland seceding and staying in the EU, and Ireland FINALLY uniting. RIP the UK. I guess it was time.
    Scotland's definitely going, but NI will probably be still in the UK for some time. It's too hard to tell how public support is for a united Ireland is there, plus the DUP would raze the place to the ground before unification. There'd have to be two votes as well - Northern Ireland first, and if they approved unification then the Republic would have to vote to change the constitution.

    This is probably the groundwork for unification, though. It's just gonna take years.

  22. #82
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    Forgive my American-ness (and I remember when the EU didn't exist) but the EU is relatively "new" in history, wasn't it signed into force in 1993? Like, a little more than 20 years ago? Somehow I think, like, a year from now, people will forget this even happened.

    I mean, this isn't as big as, say, leaving NATO or something. I think it comes down to what it represents more than what it actually is?
    Last edited by allegro; 06-24-2016 at 06:16 PM.

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    but the EU is relatively "new" in history, wasn't it signed into force in 1993? Like, a little more than 20 years ago?
    It was founded in 1957. Britain joined in 1973.

    I mean, this isn't as big as, say, leaving NATO or something.
    Nah, this is bigger. Europeans don't give a flying fuck about NATO in general - a good part of the continent isn't in it. Methinks you're seeing this through American eyes.
    Last edited by slave2thewage; 06-24-2016 at 06:18 PM.

  24. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by slave2thewage View Post
    It was founded in 1957. Britain joined in 1973.

    Nah, this is bigger. Europeans don't give a flying fuck about NATO in general - a good part of the continent isn't in it. Methinks you're seeing this through American eyes.
    I guess I was talking about this.

    In 1973, it was known as the European Economic Community.

    Membership applications by the UK to join the EEC were refused in 1963 and 1967 because the French President of the time Charles de Gaulle doubted the UK's political will.

    It is understood, however, his real fear was that English would suddenly become the common language of the community.
    LOL

    So it's been a true benefit, overall, to Britain, since 1973?

    I know here in the U.S., voters are pushing to get OUT of a whole bunch of trade union agreements. I guess the same thing. This sort of "us vs. them" crap.

    Now this shit is kicking our stock market's ass (but of course every time somebody farts, it affects our stock market).

    Quote Originally Posted by slave2thewage View Post
    Nah, this is bigger. Europeans don't give a flying fuck about NATO in general - a good part of the continent isn't in it. Methinks you're seeing this through American eyes.
    Actually, heh, Americans don't like NATO, either, heh. We think we funnel way too much fucking money into it.

    You are quite certainly still in NATO, though.

    I'm not looking at this from a "voter's" view but from the "world" view, e.g. how to world leaders see it, or from an economic standpoint, or credit ratings and all that shit. Is this going to make things a lot worse?
    Last edited by allegro; 06-24-2016 at 06:36 PM.

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by slave2thewage View Post

    Nah, this is bigger.
    Wayyy bigger, the economic, political and diplomatic ramifications will be felt for the years to come on a global scale. EU will be forced to change, thee will either be a shift of powers or a consolidation of the players in place, Russia will use it as a major play, so will Turkey... Lots of EU nations will wonder "what if", which will cause a lot of political movement...
    What just happened is groundbreaking. Exiting NATO, in comparison, is a blip.

    Edit : From an European standpoint anyway. But Americans will feel it too, and Trump has already (mis)used it as an argument. UK leaving the EU can be twisted, after all, to fit any and all narrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    Is this going to make things a lot worse?
    Well it's a huge destabilization, and if there's one thing that investors and banks don't like, it's uncertainty. So so far, that's not good. On the long run it's impossible to say, maybe the EU will sort its shit out without losing too many members, maybe the UK will manage to work it and make it through intact, maybe Russia won't try to take advantage of EU's sudden political weakness...

    A lot of shit can go real south real fast, but maybe it just won't.
    Last edited by Khrz; 06-24-2016 at 06:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khrz View Post
    A lot of shit can go real south real fast, but maybe it just won't.
    Thanks. I found this interesting article about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    ... And that article only cites the UK-centric short-term consequences... It doesn't even touch the consequences for the EU itself.

    The part about companies using UK as a bridge to the EU is a very important point, and England has a lot to lose in that regard. Since they've been tiptoeing from the beginning, I doubt they'll get a great deal out, which my be a huge issue for international companies who enjoyed the benefits of UK business laws while being able to sell anywhere in the EU where laws are more restrictive. Now, this incentive may be gone.
    Last edited by Khrz; 06-24-2016 at 06:56 PM.

  29. #89
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    Here's some thoughts from a blogger friend of mine about what this means for the British film industry and it looks like it will be bad: https://flixchatter.net/2016/06/24/m...m-a-cinephile/

  30. #90
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    I'm so pissed off. The Leave campaigners are full of shit, apart from Boris Johnson saying 'err there's no rush to invoke article 50' (well Europe may disagree you floppy haired twat). There just seems to be radio silence when they should be reassuring people! Uurggh

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