Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 120 of 187

Thread: Transformers: Age of Extinction

  1. #91
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,246
    Mentioned
    112 Post(s)
    So...does anyone else here watch movies with the "Descriptive Audio Track" enabled?

    The last two TF movies offered these and I've actually found them to be pretty interesting. Great for playing in the background when you can't really devote the time to actually WATCHING a movie, too!

    Seriously, though, I love-love-love these things. Kinda takes me back to my childhood and reminds me of listening to my old 7" vinyl, narrated adaptations of movies and cartoon shows that came with picture books where you could SEE the pictures! HEAR the story! READ the book! Turn the movie's subtitles on too and you're good to go, lol.

    But I mostly just get a kick out of catching all the little details and the frequent mistakes they make, lol.

    For instance, listening to the descriptive audio track for TF:DotM was pretty much the first time ANYONE actually realized Carly was wearing a white baseball cap as she ascended the staircase in her underwear while Michael Bay was practically giving her a proctological exam with a 3D camera, lololamirite?

    And then we have the goofs, too.

    The narrator clearly has NO IDEA wtf is going on when he describes Galvatron as taking "his Autobot form" as he transforms to fight Optimus on the highway, lolwtf.

    And, interestingly, the same narrator later describes the Seed as "a large metallic DNA pod."

    o_O

    Now, obviously, this guy doesn't always know what's what...but since the Seed converts organics into Transformium, which Joshua Joyce mapped the Transformers genome with, I'll give them that one!

    Plus, the handful of errors in the descriptive audio track for TF:AoE are NOTHING compared to all the errors in that of TF:DotM.

    For instance, when Ironhide taps Optimus and tells him to "Make something of yourself!" for their meeting with Mearing, Ironhide is incorrectly identified as Dino.

    They keep saying "Wheels" instead of Wheelie (his original name in the scripts, I know).

    They call the Matrix the "Matrix of Power" instead of the "Matrix of Leadership."

    The ship is called the Xantium instead of the Xanthium (yes, its original name, I know).

    At one point, the narrator slips up and says "Dye-No" instead of "Dee-No," lol.

    The CD player device (or w/e) which turns into Laserbeak at Dylan's penthouse as Sam holds him at gunpoint is instead described as being "wall art."

    Epps' pal is referred to as "Hardcore" Eddie despite never being identified as such elsewhere in the film (yes, his name in the script, I know).

    Soundwave is mistakenly identified as having shot Que both times when he's killed despite not even having shot him once let alone twice.

    When Ratchet approaches the military troops and orders them to "Mortar that bridge!" he's misidentified as being a Wrecker.

    Maaaaan.

    There are a LOT more but I was cleaning the house and didn't get to write all of them down.

    Anyway, it's still a pretty cool feature and an interesting way to experience a movie. I even caught a descriptive audio screening at a movie theater once by accident when they'd scheduled an early afternoon matinee screening for groups of visually impaired people who'd been driven there and I stuck around and watched the whole thing anyway just because I thought it was so cool.

    So, like I said...is anyone else here into these things?
    Last edited by Hazekiah; 08-28-2015 at 11:32 AM.

  2. #92
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,246
    Mentioned
    112 Post(s)
    So I wrote this pretty involved essay about how brilliantly the theme of knighthood is incorporated into TF:AoE.

    Thought maybe a few of you might be interested!


    EXPOSING
    THE KNIGHTHOOD THEME IN TRANSFORMERS: AGE OF EXTINCTION



    It's been almost AN ENTIRE YEAR since Transformers: Age of Extinction hit theaters and I have yet to see a FULL exploration of this movie's KNIGHTHOOD THEME and how thoroughly and ingeniously it's embedded within the film.

    In honor of tomorrow's anniversary of the movie's release, I've begun ramping up my efforts to finally get started with the MANY detailed threads I've been planning to share this past year. I've had to rush to get this out on time so it's still going to be an ever-expanding work-in-progress for awhile, but HEY it's off to a good start, at least. So bear with me, plz!

    Literally every single time I watch this film I can't help but catch SO many subtly interwoven thematic elements the whole way through and think to myself, "WTF IS WRONG WITH EVERYONE???"

    WHY ARE WE NOT
    TALKING ABOUT THIS?!?
    o_O


    And now here's a thread SPECIFICALLY for that!

    HUZZAH!!!

    \o/

    So here we go, HAIL TO THE KING and all that.

    First and foremost, obviously, is Optimus Prime's upgrade...

    OPTIMUS KNIGHT



    Of course, his newly-revealed status as a Knight would have been even more clear if the filmmakers had followed through more fully with the "Silver Knight" concept art for Optimus Prime's "Knight Upgrade," but almost ALL of the same knight's armor design elements are still quite apparent in the film. After all, he has his sword, his neck-guards, his skirting, etc. He even gets gauntlets and a shield eventually!

    Which raises the question of HOW exactly he got that sword, the gauntlets, and the shield, doesn't it...???

    HE PULLED A
    SWORD FROM A STONE




    That's right, Optimus Prime basically reenacted the Arthurian myth of the Sword in the Stone!

    And what did he do next?

    Oh, yeah...


    HE FOUGHT A
    FIRE-BREATHING DRAGON



    But, naturally, any self-respecting knight needs his stallion and the glory of combat.

    So what was Prime's NEXT order of business after taming the dragon?

    CHARGING INTO BATTLE
    ON HIS VALIANT STEED



    And that same "dragon/steed" is, obviously, based on the Tyrannosaurus Rex. The Latin for "Rex," of course, LITERALLY translating into "KING."

    I mean...I'm just sayin'!

    But I digress.

    Speaking of the Dinobots, the film sees them reconceptualized instead as "legendary warriors" and, presumably, Optimus Prime's fellow Knights, a notion reflected in both their character designs AND weaponry. We see them with helmets, faceplates, spiked boots, maces, flails, etc., all of distinctly medieval, "knightly" oIrigin.

    For instance...

    A DINOBOT
    IN KNIGHT'S ARMOR



    Speaking of which...
    THE KNIGHTSHIP

    IS A CROWN


    Also, as Lockdown told Optimus, The Knightship was "built for all you knights, you great crusaders," alluding to not only the fact that Lockdown's ship (traditionally his own, personal "Nightship") was actually instead built for the Knights before being commandeered by him, but also establishing that it was SPECIFICALLY built for their "crusades," a reference to the medieval expeditions and campaigns waged by Knights.

    For instance...
    CRUSADING KNIGHTS
    IN THEIR SHIPS
    Last edited by Hazekiah; 08-30-2015 at 01:05 AM.

  3. #93
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,246
    Mentioned
    112 Post(s)
    And, perhaps MOST interestingly, Lockdown mockingly welcomes a captive Optimus back to a VERY SPECIAL part of the Knightship...



    Easily the most obscure reference the film makes to the age of chivalry is its use of the word "TEMENOS," which, as mentioned in another thread[/URL], is an ancient term for what's essentially a temple or sanctuary, often meant for communing with divinity.

    In fact, the temenos of the Knightship seems to be where Optimus pulls the sword from the "stone" and beseeches an unseen force to "Recognize one of your knights," before being awarded his further Knight-upgrades and weaponry in response.

    Interestingly, a similar dynamic is afoot with regards to Cade's own adventures. He uses a VERY SUSPICIOUS choice of words to describe his rural Texan research lab/barn...



    In other words, it's a TEMENOS!

    XD

    Furthermore, it's ALSO the first of TWO temenos sites to which Optimus is dragged against his will, (not to mention repaired and/or upgraded) which serves as a "prime example," if you will, of the MANY recurring motifs echoing throughout the film.

    Reiterating and cleverly solidifying the film's motif of temenos sites, Cade even says a kind of prayer while he's in his makeshift lab/barn/temenos, much like Optimus himself does in his own Knightship's temenos later. After Cade extinguishes a fire in his lab, he rather poignantly exclaims as he approaches Optimus, "God! Something in here has to make this family some money. Come on, you old wreck. Judgment day."

    It's subtle and understated...but it's definitely a prayer inside a temenos!

    And, as if that prayer were answered, Cade soon discovers that the truck is in fact a Transformer, from which, one way or another, he intends to reap financial gains. Then, in the process, he revives Optimus and repairs his "spark," which Cade explains humans call a "soul."

    Keeping in mind that the fire within the barn/lab/temenos was sparked immediately following Cade's little moment to himself where he sees a shooting star and communes with his dearly departed one true love, and that the film ends with Optimus telling Cade to look to the stars and think of one of them as his "soul" while he's away, it's clearly not only another tidy little motif at work here but also yet another example of the Knighthood theme at work in the film.

    Now, I don't want to get into the religious connotations here too much in deference to the forum's rules about such things (goofy though they may be when the movie itself raises the issue), so I'll just leave it at that and point out that I'm simply carefully explaining the film's symbolism in its own language here, with as much neutrality as possible, and that the symbolism in question does indeed connect DIRECTLY to the theme of KNIGHTS and their general worldview.

    After all, medieval knights were VERY MUCH concerned with such matters. Souls, honor, love and all that. I'm sure you get the point.
    But back to the Knightship for a moment, when Cade almost literally stumbles into its armory, what does he find there?

    OH, HEY, IT'S A
    ROUNDTABLE!!!



    ANOTHER REFERENCE
    TO ARTHURIAN LEGEND



    And, speaking of Arthurian legend, when we're introduced to K.S.I.'s own robot lab and "temple of technology," where Joshua Joyce has cracked the code of the Transformium genome, they use a VERY intriguing term to refer to it...


    TWICE


    Yes, the Holy Grail, the prize of Arthurian legend!

    Additionally, he later refers to that "Holy Grail" as his company's "Salvation," not to mention calling his ex-girlfriend Darcy "Princess"...albeit sarcastically, lol.
    And then there's the matter of the movie's OTHER "princess"...Cade's daughter, Tessa.

    SPECIFICALLY,
    HER CHASTITY


    I've got a whole separate thread planned around that and, again, the board's rules make it a little tricky to discuss...but I'd say it's already MORE THAN CLEAR that a good bit of this movie dwells upon Cade's overbearing protectiveness of his daughter's chastity, which was similarly of great concern to knights in medieval times and, ultimately, plays directly into the theme of knighthood which everyone is hopefully beginning to see is TRULY pervasive throughout this film.

    But MORE on that LATER!

    ;)

    In the meantime, I think I've pretty much made my point here, lol.

    Last edited by Hazekiah; 08-30-2015 at 12:58 AM.

  4. #94
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,246
    Mentioned
    112 Post(s)
    Just to be thorough, however...

    Right off the bat, there's a particularly sly, subtle little allusion the the medieval theme which cleverly foreshadows the later revelation of Optimus Prime's Knighthood.



    And let's not forget the deck of "kill cards" Attinger uses to keep track of the Transformers he's hunting! Yep, it features an assortment of medieval symbolism itself...

    JACKS, QUEENS,
    KINGS, AND JOKERS




    On a similar note, there's the curious phrase Lockdown uses shortly after referencing Prime's knighthood...



    This AGAIN refers to a game positively STEEPED in medieval symbolism; kings, queens, bishops, pawns, rooks, castles.

    OH, AND YEAH...
    KNIGHTS



    One tiny bit that was REALLY difficult to finally catch however was THIS little detail. The ring that Savoy wears on his finger for his Cemetery Wind black ops missions (and likely in honor of his ill-fated sister as well) is a skull inscribed with the words "Memento Mori," meaning roughly, "Remember Death," or "Remember that you have to die," an ancient Latin phrase greatly in vogue during medieval times and a concept adopted by numerous orders of knights verbatim.



    And, perhaps the masterstroke here, we also have the movie's soundtrack, by a band which is actually called Imagine DRAGONS.

    But, furthermore, the song they contributed to the movie which is MOST FREQUENTLY interwoven throughout the score is THIS track...

    THE KING IS CROWNED
    IT'S DO OR DIE





    I absolutely LOVE how all these thematic elements relevant to knighthood are SO exceedingly entwined within every bit of the film, perhaps all the more because of how completely so much of it seems to have gone RIGHT over everyone's heads! A lot of it really IS pretty clever, interesting, and incredibly subtle...particularly considering how BLATANTLY the theme is presented elsewhere.

    Man, I love it and it really IS quite a feat!

    Personally, I think it's pretty cool stuff, too...most of which I've never seen mentioned anywhere.

    Especially keeping in mind what short shrift this movie often gets from critics, it seems increasingly important to bring these elements to light and to help raise the general audience's awareness that, indeed, there certainly IS a great deal more going on with this movie and its symbolism than is generally acknowledged.

    And what a shame that is!

    I honestly find the multifaceted applications of the motifs to be utterly fascinating filmmaking.

    I hope that YOU had some fun and found all this to be informative and interesting, too!

    :)

    Oh, and one last AWESOME reference to Knighthood!


    Last edited by Hazekiah; 08-30-2015 at 01:01 AM.

  5. #95
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    440
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    I'm largely surprised that anyone can manage to watch these movies let alone project or derive any sort of meaning from them.

    Have you considered maybe using some of the time you spend on this junk food and maybe watch something more culturally or artistically valid? Just throw on CHINATOWN or DOG DAY AFTERNOON or something, I beg you.
    Last edited by emptydesk; 08-29-2015 at 03:57 PM.

  6. #96
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,246
    Mentioned
    112 Post(s)
    While I actually happen to own and love BOTH of those movies, I also think it's incredibly short-sighted and dismissive of you to consider them "more culturally and artistically valid" than, say, the Transformers films. As I've pointed out at length, there's quite a bit more to these movies than people give them credit for...they're not only QUITE entertaining but there is likewise PLENTY of meaning to be derived from them, no "projection" necessary!

    But anyway, I've got a lot to say about various other films which you'd probably consider more highbrow, so fear not. I've just been travelling a LOT these last few years so it's been tricky to find the time to write everything out on an actual computer, sadly. I still take notes during most movies I watch and have several more detailed essays in the works. Hell, I just finished watching the restored, nearly 4-hour version of Lawrence of Arabia the other day! I just happen to enjoy the Transformers movies the most so I've gotten around to most of my Transformers essays first. One of which my Lawrence of Arabia viewing was actually research for, lol. All in good time!

    Perhaps you'd enjoy my recent post about the LITERAL toilet humor in Lincoln in the meantime?

    I think you'll find that even so-called "high art" has its "low art" elements, and hopefully my Transformers essays will begin to show you that the flipside can also be true.

    :)

  7. #97
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    9,204
    Mentioned
    551 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazekiah View Post
    While I actually happen to own and love BOTH of those movies, I also think it's incredibly short-sighted and dismissive of you to consider them "more culturally and artistically valid" than, say, the Transformers films.
    We could argue about cultural relevancy (which is a discussion that would put a great work of art on the same level of relative appreciation as any popular phenomenon like Honey Boo Boo or Pauly Shore), but no... Chinatown is more "artistically valid" than anything Michael Bay has ever been involved in. It's not dismissive to insist that's the case, and Michael Bay would probably (hopefully?) agree.

  8. #98
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Southern Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,129
    Mentioned
    34 Post(s)
    Even movies that are only meant to be popcorn entertainment can reflect their times, often better that "high art" movies. Sometimes these "mindless" blockbusters say quite a lot about the zeitgeist.

    I love it when people take pop culture seriously, so I really appreciated the break down of the knight theme in this movie.
    Keep up the good work!

  9. #99
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    1,826
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    This movie is marketed to people who grew up with the Transformers and kids. Could they be better? Yes. That said, I would never expect them to be anything more than they are.

  10. #100
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    4,022
    Mentioned
    141 Post(s)
    Transformers 5 and A new Animated film confirmed:

    http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/new...ers-5#/slide/1

    I'll give the Animated film a try, but I think I'm 100% officially done with live action TF movies after that last one... I know, I shouldn't have even given these films THAT many trys, but I really had some hope for them deep down inside. I enjoyed the first one a lot. But then they just got worse and worse. The 4th one was the final nail in the coffin.

  11. #101
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    A place both wonderful and strange
    Posts
    2,795
    Mentioned
    84 Post(s)
    That seems to be an animated origin story for the movie TFs, not a film related to the Animated series cartoon (which is what I'd say is something really geared for the people who grew up with the original series). Got hopeful for a second there.

    On the topic of which, it was exactly thirty-one years ago today the original animated series debuted.

  12. #102
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    4,022
    Mentioned
    141 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadaloo View Post

    On the topic of which, it was exactly thirty-one years ago today the original animated series debuted.
    Hold that film pretty close to my heart. Friend down the street who was a couple years older than me introduced me to the Transformers when we were kids (I was 1 when the film came out). I would probably include it in a "best of movies of all time" list of mine. That fight between Optimum and Megatron was always my favourite part of the film. I, probably like every other kid in the world, was shocked and appalled when they killed off Optimum Prime within the first half hour of the film. The writers had a lot of balls doing something like that, I'll tell ya that much. It worked though, great story telling. Always hated Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime as a kid though. Found him to just be to arrogant. I found Ultra Magnus to fit the leadership role better, even though he wasn't meant to open the Matrix, lol.

    Nothing beats how awesome Unicron was. I always wanted a Unicron toy as a kid, but they never had one in the original 80's line for reasons I'll never know. That toy would have sold like hot cakes. I know they came out with the one many years later (around 2008-2010?), but was too old to care anymore.

  13. #103
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    A place both wonderful and strange
    Posts
    2,795
    Mentioned
    84 Post(s)
    They tried for a prototype way back but were....not satisfied with the results:



    He indeed got a figure in about 2006 or so with the Armada toyline, which, in 2012, got remolded back into something approximating his G1 self.


  14. #104
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    4,022
    Mentioned
    141 Post(s)
    Wow, I don't blame them for not releasing that Unicron prototype in the 80's. Looks like a complete abomination!

  15. #105
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,246
    Mentioned
    112 Post(s)
    ^ Yeah, that thing was definitely garbage.

    I actually had a pal in my 3rd Grade class back in '87 who claimed he had a Galvatron toy and we were always BEGGING to see it. Unfortunately, he wasn't allowed to have people over and wouldn't bring it to school, so we all kinda called bullshit on him amongst ourselves and just let it go. But years later I heard about the prototype molds of that horrible toy up there and wondered if he hadn't gotten his hands on one somehow.

    His family WAS kinda rich and lived in a pretty mansion-esque house, after all...so it's not outside the realm of possibility.

    Stranger things have happened!

    Regardless, once I finally saw the damned thing all former, hypothetical envy IMMEDIATELY flew out the door, lol.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    We could argue about cultural relevancy (which is a discussion that would put a great work of art on the same level of relative appreciation as any popular phenomenon like Honey Boo Boo or Pauly Shore), but no... Chinatown is more "artistically valid" than anything Michael Bay has ever been involved in. It's not dismissive to insist that's the case, and Michael Bay would probably (hopefully?) agree.
    And if he would I'd disagree heartily with HIM, as well.

    Chinatown isn't more "artistically valid" than "anything Michael Bay has ever been involved in." It's simply found itself winning the popularity contest of critical acclaim more than Bay's films have in general. Both Chinatown and, say, the Transformers films are EXQUISITELY crafted representations of EXACTLY the type of entertainment they sought to become. Plenty of merit and "artistic validity" to found in each. In either case, serious, career artists at the tops of their fields worked tirelessly to achieve their vision and convey their messages while telling their stories. Polanski came out on top with critics and Bay's come out of top with the profits.

    Neither of them is any more or less an artist than the other.

    Nor are the films of either any more or less "artistically valid" than the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellospaceboy View Post
    Even movies that are only meant to be popcorn entertainment can reflect their times, often better that "high art" movies. Sometimes these "mindless" blockbusters say quite a lot about the zeitgeist.

    I love it when people take pop culture seriously, so I really appreciated the break down of the knight theme in this movie.
    Keep up the good work!
    Also, THIS.

    And thanks for the kind words!

    I've got PLENTY more en route, I assure you. Scroll on down to the bottom of this post, for starters!

    :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Archive_Reports View Post
    This movie is marketed to people who grew up with the Transformers and kids. Could they be better? Yes. That said, I would never expect them to be anything more than they are.
    And THAT'S the beauty of the Transformers films!

    Sure, like any film, each has its issues and room for improvement.

    But, as I sincerely hope my essays have begun to prove, there actually IS more to these films than meets the eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadaloo View Post
    That seems to be an animated origin story for the movie TFs, not a film related to the Animated series cartoon (which is what I'd say is something really geared for the people who grew up with the original series). Got hopeful for a second there. :(

    On the topic of which, it was exactly thirty-one years ago today the original animated series debuted. :)
    Quote Originally Posted by ManBurning View Post
    Hold that film pretty close to my heart.
    Well, he was talking about the anniversary of the first episode of the TV series ("More than Meets the Eye Pt. 1," not the animated movie.

    I'd argue that any viewpoint which holds the '86 movie in higher regard than the live action films is SEVERELY distorted through the filter of nostalgia goggles, though.

    But, yes, "Transformers: Animated" is long dead. The new animated film will serve as a prequel to the live action series. Can't wait to see it! Likewise, several more live action Transformers sequels and spin-offs are confirmed by the CEO of Hasbro himself, who's committed to continuing the series for at least another decade from now.

    Exciting times!

    XD

    But, back on the subject of the original TV show's anniversary for a moment...

    So cool to see I wasn't the only one celebrating that day!

    Here's a little thread I made in honor of it.




    I'm just gonna bang out another quick little thread about the brilliance of the writing for Transformers: Age of Extinction today, mostly because I've been traveling for AGES and still can't get started just yet on the really in depth stuff I've been planning to write about it since its premiere over a year ago. Honestly, I've just been too busy traveling the whole time since then and right now is no exception. I was actually thinking I'd finally get around to those threads relatively soon but then I just found out I'll be postponing my return home by at least another month to do some work for a pal (on a totally legal pot farm, w00t!), so I figured I should at least chip away at all this a bit while I can.

    Plus, today happens to be the 31st anniversary of the debut of the cartoon that helped start it all!

    In celebration of the occasion, I actually watched the introductory "More than Meets the Eye" trilogy of episodes which laid the groundwork for the show since I finally bought the complete DVD collection of the entire series a few weeks ago while in the midst of my seemingly endless roadtrip. Then it occurred to me that although the primary purpose of my roadtrip was to chase Marilyn Manson concerts (176 and counting, w00t!), it kind of, well...transformed into something of a TRANSFORMERS roadtrip, too!

    After Manson's Vegas show I headed to Phoenix and on the way there I stopped by the Hoover Dam, finally making the pilgrimage to where Optimus Prime and Megatron first waged battle on Earth so many decades ago! Yeah, sure, it was technically "Sherman Dam" in the show, but it was obviously Hoover Dam, just like Mt. St. Hillary in the comics was obviously Mt. St. Helens. Plus, they fought atop "Boulder Dam" in the comics...which was the original name for Hoover Dam! So, needless to say, I was pretty excited about that, lol. Then it just so happened that along the way to the show at Red Rocks we actually passed through Monument Valley AND the Hole 'N the Rock gift shop! Like I said, I was pretty thrilled! Anyway, I didn't get to take many pix but here's a moment of glory a pal snapped for me, at least...


    But I digress!

    Anyway, the point is I've been roadtripping my ass off lately -- I'm currently visiting my girlfriend in New Hampshire and about to leave for Washington state, for instance -- so I haven't been able to keep up with all the threads I've been planning to post here lately...but I've CERTAINLY been keeping Transformers on my mind all the while! And I've also been trying to catch up on all the movies I missed while I was on the road since my gf has an HDTV and Netflix and lives near a Redbox, so knowing that TF:AoE won't be available on Netflix much longer, I also decided to watch THAT in observance of today's anniversary, lol.

    Which brings me to my point.

    FINALLY!

    This thread's extended preface notwithstanding, I'm actually pretty short on time and resources and can't really post as extensively as I'd like, so I hope you'll forgive me for leaning heavily on some subtitled Netflix screenpix from TF:AoE to make my point here somewhat more succinctly.

    And the point I'm making here, as I generally am, is that the Transformers films are FAR better written than is commonly acknowledged. Every time I watch these movies the genius of their craftsmanship practically leaps off the screen at me and I can't help but share their cleverness and fight the good fight to see them at long last granted the recognition they deserve.

    Today's lesson?

    THE MEANING
    OF LOCKDOWN


    Yeah, we ALL know who the character is by now.

    But I think it's mistakenly taken for granted that everyone knows what his name means.

    Unless you happen to watch tons of law enforcement television (dramas, procedurals, reality shows, etc.), it's unlikely you've ever REALLY encountered the TRUE meaning of the term "lockdown" in your daily life, with the exception of anyone who's unfortunately found themselves on the wrong side of the law, of course. Either way, neither case would exactly place you squarely in the target audience of the Transformers franchise, so I think it deserves an explanation.

    And that's where the subtle genius of the movie's writing comes in!

    The movie itself goes out of its way to casually, repeatedly hammer home the point of exactly what Lockdown's name implies, without ever even really seeming to do so. Once again, as in so many other cases, the movie is working its audience on an almost subliminal level.

    The first time we hear a reference to the meaning behind Lockdown's name (apart from Ratchet's dying words, that is) occurs within scene where Lockdown's human accomplice Attinger is told they've successful tracked their prey, thereby establishing the element of ensnarement inherent in his name...


    Which is soon afterward echoed by agents of Cemetery Wind as they begin to zero in on their prey and secure the premises...


    And again at K.S.I.'s Chicago headquarters once they've discovered the breach in their security and once more begin to ensnare Cade...


    In fact, even the wording of the A.T.M. display notifying a fugitive Cade of his finances having been frozen by the C.I.A. while he's on the run from the authorities furthers this concept...


    All of which establishes for even the most casual and unknowing audience members the context and definition of Lockdown's name and indeed his very function within the plot, regardless of whether or not they've ever before come across the term. Specifically, it's definition relating to incarceration:

    LOCKDOWN
    the confining of prisoners to their cells, typically after an escape or to regain control during a riot.


    Which, naturally, is EXACTLY what Lockdown is there to do, as he himself explains to a captive Optimus held prisoner aboard his Knightship...


    A concept reinforced by Hound's likewise jargon-laden and potentially confounding choice of words in describing the cellblock from which he frees Optimus...


    SUPERMAX

    denoting or relating to an extremely high-security prison or part of a prison, intended for particularly dangerous prisoners.


    Anyway, it's just a little observation I can't help but make every time I watch the film. Just wanted to share!

    TL;DR

    I believe the film uses variations of the term "lockdown" FAR too many times to simply be handwaved aside as coincidence. In fact, I believe the excessive repetition is deliberately meant to directly supply the audience with context clues to understand exactly why exactly Lockdown IS Lockdown.

    Just another example of the discreetly brilliant writing technique and craftsmanship on display in the movies!

    :)

  16. #106
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    9,204
    Mentioned
    551 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hazekiah
    Just another example of the discreetly brilliant writing technique and craftsmanship on display in the movies!

    Last edited by Jinsai; 10-20-2015 at 07:41 AM.

  17. #107
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    France
    Posts
    2,190
    Mentioned
    153 Post(s)
    As much as I laud and respect your endless hyper enthusiasm @Hazekiah , nothing you can say can convince me that Transformers isn't a garbled mess from the get go.

    And as a general rule, it doesn't matter how much care, how much effort and craftsmanship you've deployed to create something, if you end up with a mess then a mess it is (I'm looking at you, Prometheus).

    And it isn't a high brow approach either : I've enjoyed Guardians of the Galaxy, I've even enjoyed Pacific Rim ffs... I'm more than ready to switch my brains off for the sheer pleasure of a good ride. But Transformers is just unwatchable and unenjoyable. It's a mess. The script's a mess, the action's a mess, the designs are messy, and the characters... Well, the decor has more personality and story arc than the actual beings on screen.

    If the final product is failed, it really doesn't matter how precise and thorough the whole process has been. To me, Transformers is just as enjoyable as a screensaver of 3D fractals randomly exploding. Sure it's colorful, but so is bashing your head against a concrete wall...

  18. #108
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    A place both wonderful and strange
    Posts
    2,795
    Mentioned
    84 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazekiah View Post
    I'd argue that any viewpoint which holds the '86 movie in higher regard than the live action films is SEVERELY distorted through the filter of nostalgia goggles, though.
    No. I'm sorry, between toilet humor like Devastator's testicles and focus on dogs fucking (WHY?), ugly robots with barely any personalities to speak of - except when they're based on ethnic stereotypes - and incredibly shitty performances by John cheeseball Turturro, Megan goddamned Fox, Shia fucking Laboeuf, continued focus on the US Military and the boring, milquetoast characters they stuff its ranks with that we're supposed to give a shit about as being the deciding factor in resolving each and every conflict, and Optimus Prime, pillar of nobility - ripping off someone's face - no, just no.

    I know that the 1986 animated movie is an hour-and-a-half long toy commercial which follows a very standard hero's journey. I'm well aware of that. It was made for kids, to make their parents buy them toys (which, of course, are all of these things, in the long run). I know it's full of animation errors. But I can still turn that movie on and smile from start to finish. You've got performances by one seriously remarkable cast (and Judd Nelson). It doesn't feel cynical the way Bay's movies do; it's got more heart than the four of them combined (lolz). And I'm going to reiterate that Bay completely and totally fails at establishing most of the Cybertronians as characters - you can scoff, but the TF series as a whole is so much more than the original cartoon - we had thirty years of comics and multiple TV series in which to get to know various robots. Four movies in and I couldn't really tell you what any of the Bayformers are like, barring Optimus, Bumblebee and Megatron, though I do admittedly remember Hound standing out a little in the last one.

    Starscream had what, five lines across three movies? That's not a character, that's an extra. Background fodder. Unforgivable when your given pilot episode of any TF show introduces a whole cast inside an hourand typically gives you a feel for each of them after a few episodes.

    I'm not one of those rabid "humans in transformers are bad" rabid fanboy types, but these movies place TFs as characters in the background as an afterthought to the main cast. It should be the other way around.

    So I don't just hold the G1 animated movie and cartoon above these films; I hold the Marvel US & UK, Dreamwave and IDW comic runs higher, not to mention the excellent Beast Wars series, TF Animated, and TF Prime. They're not just bad Transformers experiences to me, they're bad movies. ROTF had some of the shittiest pacing I've ever had the misfortune to witness.

    You want some good Transformers? Go out - right now - and read James' Roberts More Than Meets The Eye comic series. Do it. It took everything I ever knew about the franchise and turned it on its head.

    Decepticons starting out as idealists intending to topple a corrupt political system. Entire political movements outlined like the Functionists' caste system; what a TF turned into after being created dictated their function for the remainder of your existence, and it was something the population rebelled against. Well-developed characters. Notions of relationships amongst a mechanical race which dispels concepts of gender as mostly irrelevant. Providing reasons that characters like Shockwave have one eye and a gun for a hand - they were punished by the senate for acting out against them and forcibly reconfigured to mark them as criminals and seditionists.

    And hell, if you want gritty, it's got you covered too. There's the Decepticon Justice Division: Five sadistic zealots whose entire reason for existing is to hunt down and terminate rogue Decepticons. One of them has a melting chamber in his chest, another has a grinder, one of them turns into an electric chair, etc. Only time reading anything TF has actually disturbed me.



    I really, really can't speak highly enough of this series. It's the best TF fiction's ever been, period. And holy god is it ever hilarious at times:



    And I think that's the thing about the Bay movies that bothers me so very much - they miss the spirit of Transformers and take themselves too seriously, delving into self-parody as a result.

    But...to each their own.

  19. #109
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,246
    Mentioned
    112 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Khrz View Post
    As much as I laud and respect your endless hyper enthusiasm @Hazekiah , nothing you can say can convince me that Transformers isn't a garbled mess from the get go.

    And as a general rule, it doesn't matter how much care, how much effort and craftsmanship you've deployed to create something, if you end up with a mess then a mess it is (I'm looking at you, Prometheus).

    And it isn't a high brow approach either : I've enjoyed Guardians of the Galaxy, I've even enjoyed Pacific Rim ffs... I'm more than ready to switch my brains off for the sheer pleasure of a good ride. But Transformers is just unwatchable and unenjoyable. It's a mess. The script's a mess, the action's a mess, the designs are messy, and the characters... Well, the decor has more personality and story arc than the actual beings on screen.

    If the final product is failed, it really doesn't matter how precise and thorough the whole process has been. To me, Transformers is just as enjoyable as a screensaver of 3D fractals randomly exploding. Sure it's colorful, but so is bashing your head against a concrete wall...
    Well, firstly, thanks for the kind words about my "endless hyper enthusiasm," lol...much appreciated!

    However, with respect, I sincerely think that people just "switching off" their brains for these movies is part of the problem. If more people actually kept their brains "switched on" and paid attention, I think they'd generally appreciate the movies more and see that there's more than just colorful, random explosions going on, not to mention better understanding and making sense of the so-called "messy" script, action, and designs. Speaking of which...

    The designs are highly-detailed, granted. But they're also all fairly distinct and easy to tell apart as long as a modicum of focus is applied by the viewer, in addition to the fact that it's something which has been continually improved upon by the films. Autobots are individualized primary colors and Decepticons are metallic, bulky, jagged, borderline inhuman behemoths. How hard is THAT to tell apart? Same goes for the action. It gets pretty chaotic and fast-paced, no argument there! I can't imagine anyone glancing away or thinking about something else would follow it too well. But if you simply open your eyes and give it your full attention it's really quite simple to follow. And let's not forget that the third and fourth films being 3D have kept the camera FAR more static as well as the editing FAR less frenetic. And I honestly have no problem whatsoever with the scripts, either. What's so "messy" there? Naturally, there's a good bit of humor tossed-in and sprinkled throughout, I guess you could consider that a pacing or tone issue sometimes...but I tend to think of that as the sugar which helps the medicine go down. You know, the goofy stuff that helps keep the themes and motifs from coming across too heavy-handed or forced and which helps keep the proceedings fun for anyone not looking to get bogged down by the heavier stuff.

    Which I think I've gone to some considerable length establishing is QUITE present, btw.

    But people WILL need their brains turned-on to see it.

    As for the décor having more personality than the actual characters, the set design and wardrobe choices actually ARE intricately, expertly detailed and relevant to the story. Glad you've noticed! I've ALWAYS appreciated that and I've actually done a LOT of research and writing expanding on how well done it is. But that's maybe for another post someday! I was writing that thread extemporaneously and it really needs some polishing to be more presentable, sorry. For now, I think it's simply worth mentioning that the titular characters, the Transformers themselves, are actually massively expensive, CGI creations, so their limited screentime is kind of a given. That said each successive film in the series has consistently done better and better at allowing for more character building and screentime for the Transformers. The dynamic between Optimus and Sentinel in the third film and the arc granted Prime's character in the fourth are excellent examples of that improvement.

    However, it's also worth mentioning the brilliance of, say, Sam's arc within and across the films along with, say, the themes and motifs interwoven between and expressed by the human cast as well as the Transformers in the fourth film. Which is to say, when the CGI characters are WAY too expensive to do much with onscreen, you highlight the fact that the HUMAN CHARACTERS go through changes and develop and are themselves "transformers," in a way, mirroring (at far less cost) the arcs of the CGI characters they serve as stand-ins for, generally. As Optimus himself said, "Like us, there is more to them than meets the eye."

    But, again, the audience would need to keep its brains turned-on to see that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadaloo View Post
    No. I'm sorry, between toilet humor like Devastator's testicles and focus on dogs fucking (WHY?), ugly robots with barely any personalities to speak of - except when they're based on ethnic stereotypes - and incredibly shitty performances by John cheeseball Turturro, Megan goddamned Fox, Shia fucking Laboeuf, continued focus on the US Military and the boring, milquetoast characters they stuff its ranks with that we're supposed to give a shit about as being the deciding factor in resolving each and every conflict, and Optimus Prime, pillar of nobility - ripping off someone's face - no, just no.

    I know that the 1986 animated movie is an hour-and-a-half long toy commercial which follows a very standard hero's journey. I'm well aware of that. It was made for kids, to make their parents buy them toys (which, of course, are all of these things, in the long run). I know it's full of animation errors. But I can still turn that movie on and smile from start to finish. You've got performances by one seriously remarkable cast (and Judd Nelson). It doesn't feel cynical the way Bay's movies do; it's got more heart than the four of them combined (lolz). And I'm going to reiterate that Bay completely and totally fails at establishing most of the Cybertronians as characters - you can scoff, but the TF series as a whole is so much more than the original cartoon - we had thirty years of comics and multiple TV series in which to get to know various robots. Four movies in and I couldn't really tell you what any of the Bayformers are like, barring Optimus, Bumblebee and Megatron, though I do admittedly remember Hound standing out a little in the last one.

    Starscream had what, five lines across three movies? That's not a character, that's an extra. Background fodder. Unforgivable when your given pilot episode of any TF show introduces a whole cast inside an hourand typically gives you a feel for each of them after a few episodes.

    I'm not one of those rabid "humans in transformers are bad" rabid fanboy types, but these movies place TFs as characters in the background as an afterthought to the main cast. It should be the other way around.

    So I don't just hold the G1 animated movie and cartoon above these films; I hold the Marvel US & UK, Dreamwave and IDW comic runs higher, not to mention the excellent Beast Wars series, TF Animated, and TF Prime. They're not just bad Transformers experiences to me, they're bad movies. ROTF had some of the shittiest pacing I've ever had the misfortune to witness.

    You want some good Transformers? Go out - right now - and read James' Roberts More Than Meets The Eye comic series. Do it. It took everything I ever knew about the franchise and turned it on its head.

    Decepticons starting out as idealists intending to topple a corrupt political system. Entire political movements outlined like the Functionists' caste system; what a TF turned into after being created dictated their function for the remainder of your existence, and it was something the population rebelled against. Well-developed characters. Notions of relationships amongst a mechanical race which dispels concepts of gender as mostly irrelevant. Providing reasons that characters like Shockwave have one eye and a gun for a hand - they were punished by the senate for acting out against them and forcibly reconfigured to mark them as criminals and seditionists.

    And hell, if you want gritty, it's got you covered too. There's the Decepticon Justice Division: Five sadistic zealots whose entire reason for existing is to hunt down and terminate rogue Decepticons. One of them has a melting chamber in his chest, another has a grinder, one of them turns into an electric chair, etc. Only time reading anything TF has actually disturbed me.

    [snip]

    And I think that's the thing about the Bay movies that bothers me so very much - they miss the spirit of Transformers and take themselves too seriously, delving into self-parody as a result.

    But...to each their own.
    Do they? Do they REALLY miss the spirit of the franchise?

    Because I remember Transformers as being the kids franchise that had balls. (More on that later, lol.) It had bad guys that turned into GUNS. Not just day-glo laser-pistols like Shockwave, but REALISTIC replicas of a Walther PP gun sold to kids. It killed off characters wholesale. Beloved characters! Brutally and graphically, no less! It had a rock & roll soundtrack when paranoid parents everywhere were burning rock records and boycotting MTV. It had an MTV video, ffs! It had some pretty "questionable" humor. Rumble covered in birdshit, Octane ogling mechaporn, Optimus "plugging into his" pink gf with a cable from his hip into her womb and moaning as they "interfaced," her "special power" radiating from her "special place," etc. all leap to mind.

    And the movies miss the spirit of G1 by delving into the realm of "ethnic stereotypes," you say? Perhaps you're forgetting that Iron Hide was almost LITERALLY a redneck. And Jazz spoke jive and was voiced by Scatman Crothers because JAZZ MUSIC = BLACK, lol. The list goes on and on. Hell, even the utter stupidity of the Dinobots was based on the thinking at the time that the "walnut-sized" brains of dinosaurs meant they must have been retarded. And OMG "Carbomya," ffs.

    But somehow The Twins aren't in the spirit of all that? Or Drift, the samurai-bot voiced by Ken Watanabe? Or John Goodman basically reprising his gung ho military man role from The Big Lebowski as a grizzled soldier who turns into a military vehicle?

    And overly-simplistic sketches of characters though they may be, the movieverse Autobots and (admittedly most of) the Decepticons all have clearly-defined characters, which they manage to achieve despite limited, expensive CGI screentime across only a handful of two-and-a-half-hour movies, rather than HUNDREDS of issues and episodes and 30+ years of opportunity. That's not even a fair comparison, yet the movies still come out on top there...or at the very least maintain the spirit of the overstuffed first two or three years of the show and comic, wherein basically every single character was a Johnny One-Note with almost ZERO personality beyond whatever their ONE identifiable trait or purpose was quickly established as being.

    And ONOES THE MILITARY!!1! Earth Defense Force and countless G.I. Joe crossovers, anyone? C'mon, now. It's not even an issue, we ALL know the military would IMMEDIATELY get involved in the case of a hostile, alien invasion. And Bay's great relationship with the military not only helped sell the global scale of the movies at ZERO cost for the production value, but they were generally portrayed realistically AND with a sizable emphasis on the faults in their command and implementation. Was it kinda gung ho? Sure, but still within the spirit of the franchise, for the sake of a worthy trade-off, and not without leveling some criticism towards the institution as a whole. I'd say that's a solid WIN/WIN/WIN.

    Optimus Prime ripping someone's face off? He's a goddamned field general in a war spanning THOUSANDS of years. Sorry, brutal violence is just part of the job. But, hey, don't take MY word for it! Sure, G1 Optimus is a "pillar of nobility." But he ALSO went on a MEGATRON MUST BE STOPPED, NO MATTER THE COST kill-crazy rampage, running down and blasting away the Decepticon ranks across the battlefield and outright MOCKING Megatron's helpless pleas for mercy as he leveled his ion rifle right at his face to EXECUTE him then and there. Oh, and what was the VERY FIRST THING Orion Pax did after being reformatted into Optimus Prime?

    Ohhh, that's right...


    Which isn't to say I find those actions inappropriate or ignoble, mind you! I'm just saying that we should NOT for ONE moment pretend that G1 Optimus himself WOULDN'T rip-off the face of The Fallen if he'd had half-a-chance to do so. He even kicked Megatron right in the dick, ffslol. G1 Optimus did what he had to do, just like live action Optimus does.

    Anyway, I'm sure you see my point by now.

    And I don't even know why we're talking about the comics, I never said anything bad about them. I'm a huge fan! The Marvel Comics "Transformers" series was actually the first comic book I ever subscribed to ("G.I. Joe" and "G.I. Joe: Special Missions" being the only others), because they were THAT good and THAT important to me. Sure, there were plenty of duds there and they certainly had their problems, but when they were good they were GREAT. I've followed a bit of the Dreamwave stuff since then (mostly decided it wasn't that great I didn't really care much about it), and I LOVE most of what IDW's done with their line of Transformers comics. I haven't had a chance to check out much of "TF: MtMtE" or "TF:RiD" yet, but I've seen enough to know they're great and to look forward to killing a few days at Barnes & Noble reading whatever I can until I have the chance to buy them for myself.

    No arguments there, it's great stuff! The world-building, character-building, and story-arcs of the format aren't really comparable to that of the movie format, though. Same goes for the cartoons. It's comparing YEARS of daily/weekly/monthly stories to two-and-a-half-hours worth every few years, man. It's RIDICULOUS to compare the two, and that's not even addressing the fact that comic artists are obviously FAR cheaper than ILM, lol.

    So let's compare the animated movie to the live action movies instead!

    Which, I hasten to add, was my original point to you in the first place.

    If you can look at that mess of a film uncritically while shitting all over the Bay films than, again, I say you are filtering your impression through the rose-tinted glasses of nostalgia goggles.

    Both have animation and continuity errors, so fair's fair, w/e.

    Both have some questionable acting choices and quality, so that's a draw again. And good on you for preemptively mentioning Judd Nelson, lol.

    Both have characters who just seem to appear out of nowhere and characters who disappear offscreen, but then both feature revolving casts and time-jumps so w/e.

    Not much "toilet humor" in the G1 movie, granted. But its companion TV show had plenty, Spike swears (and maybe Hot Rod, btw), and it was a different time for ratings and the franchise was basically just kid-fodder back then, with no real attention paid to teenage or adult markets, unlike the live action films.

    Now let's talk pacing. Jeezus, that G1 movie stops cold for some lame-ass '80s rock song action sequence every 15 minutes, lol. And don't even get me started on "Dare to be Stoopid!" Ugh. And wtf was the point of the Quintessons or that whole trial sequence? It just pretty much comes out of nowhere with no purpose.

    Same goes for logic and basic storytelling. WTF IS THE MATRIX? Why is it the only thing that can kill Unicron? WTF IS UNICRON? And Optimus can die because TOY SALEZ but Ultra Magnus is dead-but-fixable (albeit still useless) because PLOT ARMOR? Seriously, Optimus dies from a few gutshots but Magnus gets BLOWN TO PEICES and they basically GLUE HIM BACK TOGETHER without even THINKING to go get Optimus and do the same, lol. WTF IS THAT SHIT?!? If people want to talk about "messy scripts," than the G1 movie is the one that REALLY needs to be the focus of THAT discussion.

    Sorry!

    At least the live action movies explain the Matrix, who The Fallen is, why he has it out for the Autobots, and why he's scared of Primes. I mean, Optimus DID come back from the dead just to bitchslap his underlings, rip his face off, punch his spark out from behind, and crush it in front of his eyes, lolomg.

    Let's be clear, I enjoy the G1 movie as much as anyone! Probably WAY more than most, if fact.

    But it's basically a PoS with almost nothing going on under the hood.

    Again, as I've detailed at length in many essays (and many more to come!), the live action movies are an altogether different beast in that respect and OMFG I love them for that.

    Oh, and I'm sure you and @Jinsai will be pleased to know that I'm MORE than prepared to address the issue of Devastator's testicles and related "toilet humor" more thoroughly, but I'll save that for another post.

    :)
    Last edited by Hazekiah; 10-28-2015 at 01:56 PM.

  20. #110
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    A place both wonderful and strange
    Posts
    2,795
    Mentioned
    84 Post(s)
    I would argue that the difference between the examples you're giving in regards to stereotypes between G1 vs the Bay films is how overt they're being about it, and how much it pemeates the atmosphere of the Bay films.

    There's nothing wrong with characters having accents; it's what they do with them. G1 Ironhide's accent by itself doesn't imply anything negative about the character. He speaks in drawl, which is not specifically 'redneck'.

    Now I'm not going to sit here and pretend like G1 wasn't insensitive at times - Carbombya speaks for itself, and yes, G1 Jazz spoke in jive. That's fair. But across four seasons of the old cartoon, the presence of moments like that was comparably brief in comparison to the films. Consider the tech support guy from the first movie, speaking with the thickest of indian accents, working the stereotypical Indian tech support job. Or Jerry "Deep" Wang.

    You bring moments like that into a movie next to characters like Skids and Mudflap, and you can't tell me that their dialogue about 'not being able to read so good' doesn't play to the exact same type of stereotyping. Maybe it wouldn't if I learned a bit more about them as characters. Maybe if they featured in one damn scene which had them ferrying someone around while they talk about what they make of earth, or their life back home. Maybe if I got to know them. Leading me to:

    The military: sure, yes, they'd get involved. Yes, they were portrayed well. But who cares about Lt. Commander Jerry McFuckface? Not me. Yes, it makes sense to have them around, but I don't give two shits about the family this one guy's got at home; why should I? For that matter, why should I give a shit about him? The focus and time spent on them could have, and should have, be better spent building characters like Starscream or Ratchet. Or Barricade, who disappeared for ages with no explanation. Or, yes, Skids and Mudflap. I can't stress how badly the lack of characterization for the robots hurts these films and undermines their entire point.

    The presence of the military in this film should be limited to a background supporting role with maybe one liason side character. Nothing more, nothing less.

    We should have a cast of Autobots and Decepticons who are characters. Instead we have Optimus, a mute Bumblebee, and three or four replaceable background robots versus Megatron (now Galvatron, the differences between which and how the change has affected him have yet to even be portrayed, nor do I expect them to be) and a small army of equally replaceabale robots, all of them background characters who are ultimately there to shoot stuff and get blown up before we have a chance to learn about them the way we have about Mr. Fuckface. A major problem with these movies is that the Bayformers crew barely saw the robots as characters, and gave them personality quirks instead of character traits. That's why Bumblebee can't talk - he doesn't need to express an opinion; he's something for the human cast to react to. Bay even said something along those lines around the time of the first movie; he didn't believe robots could work as relatable characters. It took four films before he even started to treat them that way.

    Re: Optimus: Good lord man, It's not the fact that he executed someone, it's the way he did it. Couldn't he have just, what, chopped his head off with an axe, or shot him or something? You're missing the point of what I'm saying; yes, Optimus can and will kill people in a fight, but this is a guy who laments every life he has to take. It was an overtly brutal, nasty method of killing, a nasty image. He made him suffer. That's just not Optimus, it's too vicious. You'll note here that I'm not even bringing up the time he took off Bonecrusher's head or caved in Megs's skull or anything; again: yes, he's a soldier, and a good one, one who does his job, but never, ever someone who lingers on the kill, or makes his enemy suffer like that. It was a hateful kill, and your comparisons to the G1 movie scene don't hold up; Optimus and Megatron in that series had a history, and that moment was a long time coming. He wasn't savoring the moment or anything; he was calling out Megatron on his own bullshit before he finished him off. If you think, for a second, Optimus would ever make someone suffer, even his worst enemy, you're willfully blinding yourself to the piss-poor interpretation of the character in that scene, or you're willing to blindly accept any depiction of the character that's offered up to you. The one time it ever happened that I can remember, was in the IDW comics when Megatron, in captivity, pushed his buttons so badly that he gave him a near-fatal electric jolt in a moment of unthinking rage; which he instantly regretted and was a factor in his deciding to step down as Prime for a long time. Optimus doesn't do unnecessary brutality.

    As a reminder, I grant that Age Of Extinction was a bit better about making them into characters. I enjoyed Lockdown. But they should have started off that way! To say that the Bayformer films had clearly-defined characters?

    Define movie Starscream, Barricade, Frenzy or Bonecrusher to me, using no tie-in comics or toy specs. Please. Show me what characters the movie gave them.

    And it is really telling that you're focusing on on the G1 show and comic to zero in on characters you don't believe have much of a personality either when, as you've pointed out, we've had thirty years of content since. Let's go back to 2007, with Transformers Animated: in the space of the three-episode pilot - three isolated episodes which require no outside knowledge of the franchise to understand at all - you get a feel for each one of the Cybertronian characters, Autobot and Decepticon alike. The same holds true for the first parts of Beast Wars and Prime. I'm not comparing the movies directly to thirty years of storytelling or being remotely unfair; I'm pointing out that there's a lot to choose from, and if I have to specify; these films fail as Transformers stories when held up against any given series pilot. Pick a series. Hell, even the original five-part More Than meets The Eye G1 pilot managed to sketch out more bare-bones characters than the Bay films bothered to. In every case, three to five episodes; your average movie length. That's all you need, with no knowledge of any other series. That's all it takes to introduce a cast of Transformers. And Bay & Co. never bothered to do it properly for four movies.

    Now, we're talking about the comics because I'm using them to prove just how far Transformers has come from the simplistic stereotypes you're justifying as present in the movies because the G1 cartoon exhibited such behavior at times. That's the crux of your defense: "The series did it thirty years ago, this is nothing new." But we're in entirely different entertainment climates these days; kids' shows have evolved. There's no room for this shit anymore. And I can be forgiving when it comes to a Reagan-era toy commercial, it was a more naive time. But a series of blockbuster hollywood films designed to appeal to the mass moviegoing audience in the present day? No. Even less room for this shit. Far less.

    That's the funny thing here, actually. You've given me these examples to try and prove that the Bayformers films haven't done anything that the G1 series didn't do first; but it's not like that justifies their presence. The series is so much more than the old toy commerical you're using to compare these films to (but while we're at it, I'm also going to point out that half of Season 2 of the show was devoted to introducing and fleshing out new characters in almost every episode; half-hour spotlights for each character. Did they do it well? Arguable, but they at least TRIED. Also: the Dinobots were portrayed as articulated and intelligent in the Marvel comic, Grimlock especially towards the end of it).

    And those ugly moments aren't what I'd call "in the spirit" of the various series. Far from. That, I'd hypothesize, is best encapsulated by the joy of seeing how the Transformers react to our world as much as we react to theirs.

    Those goofy moments, like where Optimus plays basketball, Ratchet marvelling at campers preparing a weenie roast, or Jazz telling Buster that Madonna's Material Girl is amazing music he wishes they had back on Cybertron. Or Animated Prime's eyes widening when Sari whispers to him about where babies come from. Really lighthearted moments that make you smile, you know? Which are impossible when you don't treat the robots as characters.

    Now as for the 1986 movie? Your exact quote was "I'd argue that any viewpoint which holds the '86 movie in higher regard than the live action films is SEVERELY distorted through the filter of nostalgia goggles".

    Like I said, "I know that the 1986 animated movie is an hour-and-a-half long toy commercial". I know the Matrix is a giant plot device. I know Unicron has no explanation, that he just shows up. But I can say "this is a movie about the Transformers." It's a basic hero's journey - Hot Rod's. The Quintessons and the trial do have a purpose; they exist as a narrative device for Hot Rod to witness the brutality of the universe and prepare him for becoming Prime. It does nothing but follow basic storytelling tropes and it still tells a better damn Transformers story than all four Bay films do. It explored the Transformers' universe, showed us teeming worlds of robot fish, planets made of junk, and sets kids' imaginations alight. Do we forget that it was a movie, and that this is a franchise, aimed at children?

    If TF 86 had a message, it was about finding hope in the darkest of times and living up to one's potential. It was, ultimately, an optimistic film despite all the horrible acts of war that occurred in it. I can watch it and smile, no matter how little sense it makes. I can at least enjoy the thing for all of its lunacy, and argue that a Weird Al-scored motorcycle chase scene - a moment of innocent fun meant to get the kids dancing - has way more damn justification to be in a Transformers film than a three-minute back-and-forth conversation with a cultural stereotype of a tech support guy from India.

    Yes, I can watch TF 86 to this day and hold it in very high regard indeed. because it was a really, really fucking entertaining kid's show that had no aspirations to be anything but, which didn't even realize the potential it had at the time.

    And can I point out, Haz, with all due respect, that you're trying to prove the inferiority of one single 29-year old kids' movie-slash-glorified-cartoon-commercial to a series of blockbuster films on a ridiculous budget staffed by supposedly, capable Hollywood screenwriters? How bad is that, that there is even a need to try?
    Last edited by Shadaloo; 10-28-2015 at 06:17 PM.

  21. #111
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Joined (old ETS): 01 Sep 2004 -- Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    7,357
    Mentioned
    282 Post(s)
    @Hazekiah - your dedication to this and Manson is as crazy as mine is to Danzig haha

  22. #112
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    1,246
    Mentioned
    112 Post(s)
    ^ Haha, I do try, lol...thanks!

    And I've been meaning to drop this post in here for awhile now but never got around to it till now.

    Sorry, @Shadaloo! My dance-card's been kinda full lately, I'll reply to your most recent post in full at a later date, I promise. In the meantime, I believe I left you and @Jinsai hanging (so to speak) on an earlier point...

    (Oh, and I'm guessing @hellospaceboy might get a kick out of this too, lol.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadaloo View Post
    No. I'm sorry, between toilet humor like Devastator's testicles and focus on dogs fucking (WHY?)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazekiah View Post
    Because I remember Transformers as being the kids franchise that had balls. (More on that later, lol.)
    As promised...


    DEVASTATOR'S WRECKING BALLS
    ARE THE CORE OF THE MOVIE!!!

    Firstly, it's worth noting that I find Devastator's wrecking ball scrotum absolutely HILARIOUS and in no way in need of ANY further justification beyond that alone.

    However, as with my similarly-titled thread analyzing the symbolism of a likewise commonly dismissed and VASTLY unappreciated scene from Transformers: Dark of the Moon, The Red Cup FREAKOUT Scene is THE CORE OF THE MOVIE!!!, I assure you that I am actually 1,000% SERIOUS about this and hope you'll all gird your loins long enough to hear me out and bear with me for the sake of better understanding the IMMENSE subtlety of such a BLATANTLY balls-out and IN-YOUR-FACE yet somehow still incredibly sneaky and clever scene such as THIS:


    As with my recent thread about English words hidden in Cybertronian dialogue, I'd been meaning to post about this for a LONG time but never really got around to it until the subject came up in another thread recently. Or, more accurately in this case, about a BILLION threads.

    Unfortunately, I've simply never quite had the time after joining this forum due to my exceedingly busy schedule traveling and because whenever I finally HAVE had the time I was also having LOTS of trouble finding the screencaps I wanted for this thread. Luckily, I was bored enough today to take another look around and LO AND BEHOLD! the screencaps I'd been looking for all this time were just a quick google search away!

    Also, I'd just like to further preface this by pointing out that I'd MUCH RATHER be working on the many, many threads regarding Transformers: Age of Extinction which I've been chipping away at in my notebooks over the past year, like my exploration of the knighthood theme in that film, but w/e...those are all pretty damned involved and I can bash this one out RIGHT now, so all in good time, right? Plus, I should've posted this about SIX years ago so I'm even further behind schedule on THIS one, lol.

    So here we go!

    As I'm sure you're all WELL aware, Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen is easily the most maligned film of the series to date, and no scene in the film is MORE reviled by its detractors than THIS scene. Often called "pointless," it is among the most blatant examples of the so-called "toilet humor" which is so commonly at the heart of the movie's criticisms, particularly because so many think it "has no place" in the movie or any value AT ALL beyond that of a cheap laugh.

    THIS THREAD SEEKS TO REMEDY
    THAT MISUNDERSTANDING.

    So what IS the "core" of the movie, and how exactly DOES this scene fit into that thematic statement???

    As the opening and closing monologues of this movie establish, one of the core plot points of the entire movie is the revelation that Earth and Cybertron share a FAR more ancient history together than was previously known. In fact, the film even goes so far as to establish that the core of the dispute between Autobots and Decepticons actually revolves around The Fallen's attempt to break the code of the Primes by eradicating all life on Earth with the Sun Harvester for his own selfish and evil motives.

    But, stepping back from those points for a moment, we must also acknowledge the baselessness of yet another common criticism of the film, regarding the so-called "toilet humor" prevalent throughout, such as the Witwicky family's pets humping away on the sofa, for instance.
    However, are they even really fornicating?

    Nope! In fact, Ron Witwicky's dialogue makes that explicitly clear:

    MOJO! STOP DOMINATING FRANKIE!


    Yes, as the scene above establishes, the "dog-humping" scenes DO NOT depict actual reproductive acts, but represent instead acts of DOMINANCE, behavior which even neutered males and the female of the species engage in socially to express their "alpha" status over others.

    Likewise, the scene of Wheelie "humping" Mikaela's leg later in the film is meant as a display of dominance for the film's audience as much as for the characters themselves, brilliantly set-up and foreshadowed by Mojo's OWN display of dominance over Frankie, illustrating not only that Mikaela is Wheelie's "goddess" and that he belongs to her, but also that SHE belongs to HIM, much to Sam's dismay.

    YEAH! YEAH! SAY MY NAME! SAY MY NAME!


    Which leads me to the point of this thread!

    How exactly do these so often derided and misunderstood scenes play into the movie's CORE themes of a shared history between Earth and Cybertron and the root of the schism between the Autobots and Decepticons?

    Wait for it...

    Ladies and gentlemen, I proudly submit to you...

    DECEPTICONS DOMINATING OUR PLANET

    All of which taken together, I hasten to add, demonstrates a FANTASTICALLY subtle and clever employment of The Screenwriter's Rule of Three, simultaneously establishing the underpinnings of the humor and, more importantly, the very meaning of the scene in question, wherein we see Devastator straddling an ancient monument from Earth's history and revealing it to be in actuality, the Sun Harvester, an instrument of Decepticon dominance over mankind.

    Pretty clever stuff for a film so many people constantly accuse of being so poorly written!

    Hell, this theme of domination which the film constructs over the course of three, evenly spaced acts even offers something in the way of a more intrinsically naturalistic explanation for the movie's similarly widely-criticized transformation of Devastator from his traditional, bipedal design to that of a lumbering, four-legged beast-like design, insofar as it makes more plainly recognizable the visual parallel between Mojo's dominance over Frankie and Devastator's dominance over us.

    And for anyone who thinks that the filmmakers underutilized and failed to take FULL advantage of their unprecedented access to the Great Pyramids of Giza, or that this scene was nothing more than a tasteless, throwaway gag with no place or purpose within the movie, I sincerely suggest turning your brain back on and PAYING ATTENTION to what's actually going on within the scene and the film as a whole.

    I mean, this stuff is PURE GOLD, man!

    Even the so-called "lowbrow" humor of Simmons' dialogue perfectly encapsulates the visual metaphor of Decepticon domination over not only Earth's history but, indeed, MANKIND ITSELF.

    To wit...

    I AM DIRECTLY BELOW ENEMY SCROTUM!


    And there we have it!

    Naturally, I have A LOT more to say on this subject, but I'll save that for a later date since I can already feel the nerdrage, hatred, and blind rejection coming my way after explaining all this, lol.

    In the meantime, I hope you've found this as enjoyable as it is enlightening!

    :)

  23. #113
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Somerset, UK
    Posts
    1,008
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Dude. They're just balls, and they're there because some people laugh at balls...and that's ok. There's no need to go to such lengths to try and justify it.


    That being said though, kudos for all your hard work in finding connections between things that don't exist. It is interesting to read.

  24. #114
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    A place both wonderful and strange
    Posts
    2,795
    Mentioned
    84 Post(s)
    Apophenia







    Edit: But for real now Haz, I admire your passion and fervor for the things you love but...your post has caused Pink Floyd's seminal classic "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" to leap into my head unbidden. I salute you.
    Last edited by Shadaloo; 11-12-2015 at 12:38 AM.

  25. #115
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    9,204
    Mentioned
    551 Post(s)
    what the fuck...

  26. #116
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Joined (old ETS): 01 Sep 2004 -- Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    7,357
    Mentioned
    282 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazekiah View Post
    ^ Haha, I do try, lol...thanks!

    And I've been meaning to drop this post in here for awhile now but never got around to it till now.

    Sorry, @Shadaloo! My dance-card's been kinda full lately, I'll reply to your most recent post in full at a later date, I promise. In the meantime, I believe I left you and @Jinsai hanging (so to speak) on an earlier point...

    (Oh, and I'm guessing @hellospaceboy might get a kick out of this too, lol.)





    As promised...


    DEVASTATOR'S WRECKING BALLS
    ARE THE CORE OF THE MOVIE!!!

    Firstly, it's worth noting that I find Devastator's wrecking ball scrotum absolutely HILARIOUS and in no way in need of ANY further justification beyond that alone.

    However, as with my similarly-titled thread analyzing the symbolism of a likewise commonly dismissed and VASTLY unappreciated scene from Transformers: Dark of the Moon, The Red Cup FREAKOUT Scene is THE CORE OF THE MOVIE!!!, I assure you that I am actually 1,000% SERIOUS about this and hope you'll all gird your loins long enough to hear me out and bear with me for the sake of better understanding the IMMENSE subtlety of such a BLATANTLY balls-out and IN-YOUR-FACE yet somehow still incredibly sneaky and clever scene such as THIS:


    As with my recent thread about English words hidden in Cybertronian dialogue, I'd been meaning to post about this for a LONG time but never really got around to it until the subject came up in another thread recently. Or, more accurately in this case, about a BILLION threads.

    Unfortunately, I've simply never quite had the time after joining this forum due to my exceedingly busy schedule traveling and because whenever I finally HAVE had the time I was also having LOTS of trouble finding the screencaps I wanted for this thread. Luckily, I was bored enough today to take another look around and LO AND BEHOLD! the screencaps I'd been looking for all this time were just a quick google search away!

    Also, I'd just like to further preface this by pointing out that I'd MUCH RATHER be working on the many, many threads regarding Transformers: Age of Extinction which I've been chipping away at in my notebooks over the past year, like my exploration of the knighthood theme in that film, but w/e...those are all pretty damned involved and I can bash this one out RIGHT now, so all in good time, right? Plus, I should've posted this about SIX years ago so I'm even further behind schedule on THIS one, lol.

    So here we go!

    As I'm sure you're all WELL aware, Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen is easily the most maligned film of the series to date, and no scene in the film is MORE reviled by its detractors than THIS scene. Often called "pointless," it is among the most blatant examples of the so-called "toilet humor" which is so commonly at the heart of the movie's criticisms, particularly because so many think it "has no place" in the movie or any value AT ALL beyond that of a cheap laugh.

    THIS THREAD SEEKS TO REMEDY
    THAT MISUNDERSTANDING.

    So what IS the "core" of the movie, and how exactly DOES this scene fit into that thematic statement???

    As the opening and closing monologues of this movie establish, one of the core plot points of the entire movie is the revelation that Earth and Cybertron share a FAR more ancient history together than was previously known. In fact, the film even goes so far as to establish that the core of the dispute between Autobots and Decepticons actually revolves around The Fallen's attempt to break the code of the Primes by eradicating all life on Earth with the Sun Harvester for his own selfish and evil motives.

    But, stepping back from those points for a moment, we must also acknowledge the baselessness of yet another common criticism of the film, regarding the so-called "toilet humor" prevalent throughout, such as the Witwicky family's pets humping away on the sofa, for instance.
    However, are they even really fornicating?

    Nope! In fact, Ron Witwicky's dialogue makes that explicitly clear:

    MOJO! STOP DOMINATING FRANKIE!


    Yes, as the scene above establishes, the "dog-humping" scenes DO NOT depict actual reproductive acts, but represent instead acts of DOMINANCE, behavior which even neutered males and the female of the species engage in socially to express their "alpha" status over others.

    Likewise, the scene of Wheelie "humping" Mikaela's leg later in the film is meant as a display of dominance for the film's audience as much as for the characters themselves, brilliantly set-up and foreshadowed by Mojo's OWN display of dominance over Frankie, illustrating not only that Mikaela is Wheelie's "goddess" and that he belongs to her, but also that SHE belongs to HIM, much to Sam's dismay.

    YEAH! YEAH! SAY MY NAME! SAY MY NAME!


    Which leads me to the point of this thread!

    How exactly do these so often derided and misunderstood scenes play into the movie's CORE themes of a shared history between Earth and Cybertron and the root of the schism between the Autobots and Decepticons?

    Wait for it...

    Ladies and gentlemen, I proudly submit to you...

    DECEPTICONS DOMINATING OUR PLANET

    All of which taken together, I hasten to add, demonstrates a FANTASTICALLY subtle and clever employment of The Screenwriter's Rule of Three, simultaneously establishing the underpinnings of the humor and, more importantly, the very meaning of the scene in question, wherein we see Devastator straddling an ancient monument from Earth's history and revealing it to be in actuality, the Sun Harvester, an instrument of Decepticon dominance over mankind.

    Pretty clever stuff for a film so many people constantly accuse of being so poorly written!

    Hell, this theme of domination which the film constructs over the course of three, evenly spaced acts even offers something in the way of a more intrinsically naturalistic explanation for the movie's similarly widely-criticized transformation of Devastator from his traditional, bipedal design to that of a lumbering, four-legged beast-like design, insofar as it makes more plainly recognizable the visual parallel between Mojo's dominance over Frankie and Devastator's dominance over us.

    And for anyone who thinks that the filmmakers underutilized and failed to take FULL advantage of their unprecedented access to the Great Pyramids of Giza, or that this scene was nothing more than a tasteless, throwaway gag with no place or purpose within the movie, I sincerely suggest turning your brain back on and PAYING ATTENTION to what's actually going on within the scene and the film as a whole.

    I mean, this stuff is PURE GOLD, man!

    Even the so-called "lowbrow" humor of Simmons' dialogue perfectly encapsulates the visual metaphor of Decepticon domination over not only Earth's history but, indeed, MANKIND ITSELF.

    To wit...

    I AM DIRECTLY BELOW ENEMY SCROTUM!


    And there we have it!

    Naturally, I have A LOT more to say on this subject, but I'll save that for a later date since I can already feel the nerdrage, hatred, and blind rejection coming my way after explaining all this, lol.

    In the meantime, I hope you've found this as enjoyable as it is enlightening!

    lmfao.
    @tony.parente @Kris

  27. #117
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Monterey Bay, Ca
    Posts
    3,123
    Mentioned
    61 Post(s)
    Over a year later, how is this the most thorough thread on this forum?

  28. #118
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Joined (old ETS): 01 Sep 2004 -- Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    7,357
    Mentioned
    282 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Wretchedest View Post
    Over a year later, how is this the most thorough thread on this forum?
    Ah, the great mysteries of ETS.

  29. #119
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Vancouver BC
    Posts
    8,873
    Mentioned
    96 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by GibbonBlack View Post
    Dude. They're just balls, and they're there because some people laugh at balls...and that's ok. There's no need to go to such lengths to try and justify it.


    That being said though, kudos for all your hard work in finding connections between things that don't exist. It is interesting to read.
    Careful, pretty sure that counts as 'nerdrage'. Not the type of rage that occurs after wasting one's life talking about robot balls in a movie, but it's up there.

  30. #120
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    St. Louis
    Posts
    4,970
    Mentioned
    280 Post(s)
    Man I had no idea this thread existed and I've never seen anything related to transformers ever. I think I have some catching up to do.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions