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Thread: The Smashing Pumpkins

  1. #2191
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    There's a claim that a source close to D'Arcy says Billy and James tried to get her back for months and it didn't work out because she's just not in the head space for it anymore.

    I desperately need to believe this, because I can't compute them all shutting her out - especially not James - unless there was a goddamned good reason. It's behavior too shitty for three (mostly) functioning, professional adults.

    Any way you slice it I'm heartbroken. Today's the day I finally accept I'll never ever see the original 4 perform together as long as I live.

  2. #2192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadaloo View Post
    There's a claim that a source close to D'arcy says Billy and James tried to get her back for months and it didn't work out because she's just not in the head space for it anymore.

    I desperately need to believe this, because I can't compute them all shutting her out - especially not James - unless there was a goddamned good reason. It's behavior too shitty for three (mostly) functioning, professional adults.

    Any way you slice it I'm heartbroken. Today's the day I finally accept I'll never ever see the original 4 perform together as long as I live.
    Right...a "source". Probably Kerry Brown, who was once married to D'arcy in another lifetime ago. Close enough, I guess.

    And then there's D'arcy herself over on Facebook, interacting with fans and lamenting how bad she wanted to do this reunion for the longest time, and getting shafted by WPC.

    https://www.facebook.com/darcy.wretzkybrown

    Really? Why would she do this if she was "invited all the way" and has been singing the same tune for years about her eagerness to perform as the original lineup again?

    I'll tell you what makes perfect sense: William Patrick Corgan the Elitist Prick shitting on one of his collaborators yet again. Because we've never seen that before. Just ask Paz, or Pajo, or Sweeney, or James, or Trent, or Mike Byrne, or..

  3. #2193
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    If it was just Billy, or Billy and Jimmy, then yeah, I wouldn't put up any kind of argument. It's the kind of calculating behavior he has a history of, sure. I don't always buy into the Billy's an asshole argument - he deffo is a lot of the time - but having her in the band makes much too much sense in terms of profitability and marketability. Look at it that way. He stands to lose more than he gains by having her out.

    But I don't get why James would do this without her involved. It's the piece that makes no sense to me. Like, I don't see him doing this unless there was no other way.

    Plus he's right there going "she's out of her mind". We look at that and see an insult, sure, but what if that really is what he understands her to be? That #BeCarefulWhatYouWishFor hash tag makes a fuck ton of sense if you look at it that way.

    You can be unstable and perfectly capable of rational communication. I don't doubt she is bitterly disappointed.

  4. #2194
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    Honestly, as long as Billy and Jimmy is involved I have no problem with calling it a reunion.
    Billy's songwriting and Jimmy's drumming are what SP is to me.
    James is like Richard Barbieri to Porcupine Tree. With him it sounds much better, but not "essential".

    Yes, I like Zeitgeist, American Gothic and Oceania. Love Gossamer and residency songs.

  5. #2195
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    Clearly Billy, Jimmy, and James are all on the same page, but everyone piles the hate on Billy and only Billy. It's the word of 3 people against hers and yet everyone immediately takes her word for it without giving the other side any consideration. To be clear, I am not calling her a liar (I believe there is truth on both sides here), but why buy every word of her story and discredit everything else as bullshit? Maybe there's more to this story or something about D'arcy and her current state that we don't know about. Not to mention the apparent fact that she has barely played music since the '90s, which very likely has a great deal to do with their decision. Just trying to play devil's advocate...
    Last edited by sonic_discord; 02-12-2018 at 10:42 PM.

  6. #2196
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    Billy and James together is more important than Billy and Jimmy together. That's why Adore is amazing and sounds exactly like the Pumpkins and Zeitgeist is subpar and sounds like someone trying hard to sound like the Pumpkins.

    History has shown that Billy is a complete douche. He has had a falling out with pretty much everyone he has worked with. There's years and years of evidence showing Billy being an egomaniacal prick. I'm sorry but their statement does not make sense nor fit the timeline of events. Billy couldn't help himself from being an asshole in the album reissues. There's just too much history of his behavior. Billy gets especially pissed when a member of the band other than him gets praise and support. He has shit on James when this has been the case, D'arcy, Nicole, etc. Billy wants all the praise and attention.
    Last edited by neorev; 02-12-2018 at 10:46 PM.

  7. #2197
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    Not disagreeing with any of that but:

    Quote Originally Posted by neorev View Post
    I'm sorry but their statement does not make sense nor fit the timeline of events.
    Over the last few months? If the story of them trying hard to get her back in and then giving up once they saw "the situation" is true, It fits perfectly. Months of rumor and reunion buzz until BAM! We get 3/4.

    "Billy is an asshole" is an easy answer for everything. And while it may be true, it doesn't explain why James is apparently okay with this, too. BC lives in his own little world, yeah, but he's not gonna turn down a chance to market a full-fledged reunion. He's egotistical but not a total idiot. He's an opportunist and a businessperson who treats his band like a brand and I can't believe he'd turn around and shoot himself in the foot like this, depriving himself of a full deck of original members, and potentially millions of dollars - just because some people like D"Arcy more.

    Her non-involvement might be the very reason James only committed to one song. We don't even know if he'll tour with them.

  8. #2198
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    Always sucks when something like this happens. Especially with the rumours going on for so long as well as Billy & D'Arcy saying they were on good terms again.

    Always sucks when things like this happen with original line ups.

  9. #2199
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    https://www.alternativenation.net/sm...reunion-offer/

    Looks like Billy's not an asshole anymore, people.

  10. #2200
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    Jesus Christ, was all the drama really worth it? Let them sort the things out by themselves, and then announce stuff. Whoever started the leaks, hacks and rumors can go fuck himself royally.

  11. #2201
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    So Billy seems pretty reasonable from those messages?

  12. #2202
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    Jesus, those texts gave me PTSD to text conversations with my ex girlfriend

  13. #2203
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    She's still posting this morning...

  14. #2204
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    Fuck this was close to happening for real. Even if she had a torn rotator cuff she could've visited them...

  15. #2205
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    Seems to me Billy was putting the cart before the horse on all of this reunion stuff...not making sure she could play with them before all of the plans were done etc. Doesn't seem like he should've been in such a rush.

  16. #2206
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    Wait so Billy says in those texts “you’re welcome to come play in any capacity you like that you feel up for, even if it’s just two songs a night, and we’ll even get you your own bus to accomodate you,” and then somehow they’re shutting her out? None of this makes sense and it’s a real shame because I was all aboard the OG SP hype train, being too young to have ever had the chance to see them together. Seeing Jimmy with the band in 2015 was mindblowing for me and the full lineup would have been insane. It’s one reunion I feel like everyone would have been game for.

  17. #2207
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    Quote Originally Posted by kleiner352 View Post
    Wait so Billy says in those texts “you’re welcome to come play in any capacity you like that you feel up for, even if it’s just two songs a night, and we’ll even get you your own bus to accomodate you,” and then somehow they’re shutting her out? None of this makes sense and it’s a real shame because I was all aboard the OG SP hype train, being too young to have ever had the chance to see them together. Seeing Jimmy with the band in 2015 was mindblowing for me and the full lineup would have been insane. It’s one reunion I feel like everyone would have been game for.
    Yeah, there's obviously a chunk missing there when they're talking about the new bassist.

  18. #2208
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    At least we know the shows will all be the same setlist in advance. The description of the show being a “Broadway” production feels ridiculous — I know they did that giant orb stuff for Oceania but SP has never felt like a band in need of heavy visuals.

    It’s like Billy Corgan calls a panel of experts before every decision he makes to ask for the best possible recommendations and then says “Okay, I will now do the opposite of everything you all just said” and he’s been doing this for about 15-20 years and in his times of doubt for this method he turns to Alex Jones and Alex insists that he’s “doing the right thing rejecting the globalist’s plans” and then he rents a bus and makes YouTube videos about old people for a month and we all just have to deal with it, all just have to accept that this is life in the pumpkin patch, kids.

  19. #2209
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    Quote Originally Posted by poro765 View Post
    https://www.alternativenation.net/sm...reunion-offer/

    Looks like Billy's not an asshole anymore, people.
    Actually no, Billy is part of the problem. He ruined this whole thing by rushing it and not even having the common decency of actually meeting D'arcy in person. I read a couple of things others have wrote on a certain Pumpkins forum about this that perfectly sum up my own thoughts, so I will quote them...

    "if you really plan to get 4 people together who indeed have not played together in 19 years, and you have the means and schedule to fly around the country all the fucking time (even to tape wrestling tv) -would you not maybe get your fucking ass to michigan and meet your former band mate at least ONCE face to face before you go ahead with your plans? and by ahead I mean get a full package going for the 30th anniversary?

    he never actually bothered to meet her in the past 2 years. but, planned the entire 30th anniversary shit. so what, thought from the get-go "if she agrees to do the steven adler thing, great, her involvement will be on my terms, doing the part I assign to her, if not, plan b anyway, kids gonna buy shirts without her on it, too?"


    "Because this isn't about making things work with the four of them in a low pressure environment, it's about Corgan doing whatever he can to leverage himself back into arenas

    Seriously, why would you not just meet up and jam, go out for dinner, have a good time, maybe book some small club shows or something to test the waters instead of the biggest venues possible?

    Insane way of thinking and I'm glad that D'arcy continues to be possibly the only person in the world who calls him out on this shit"


    "the fishy thing from corgan's part is the photoshoot that didn't inclu.de her.
    i get that they're in LA just working on demo's.... that they needed ONE song, and could get that done without her...
    but the photoshoot (which I bet we'll see final product thursday) is the only thing on corgan's part that irks me."


    What Billy tried to pass off as four old friends reuniting, healing, and playing music again has turned into Billy's rush to cash grab whatever he can no matter what whether they were involved or not. He didn't have to rush this and ruined what could have been something amazing by only seeing dollar signs instead of people. They can all be together as long as it is on his terms and timing. This contract makes this whole thing feel like one big cash grab rather than something natural. I don't get why Billy had to rush this so fast to be a huge event. I wish it was just four people coming together to jam and the rest could have developed later.
    Last edited by neorev; 02-13-2018 at 09:16 AM.

  20. #2210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jord View Post
    So Billy seems pretty reasonable from those messages?
    I have to agree that Billy came across sounding pretty reasonable and accommodating in those too. As far as "offering a GNR reunion deal" and suggesting that she only play for a handful of songs, he was right about this being a very big deal and a make it or break it moment for the band and she has barely played music for the past 18 or 19 years, let alone playing live onstage for 20,000 fans. If you ask me, it's pretty shitty of her to be talking to the media every other hour (seriously, I've lost count of the D'arcy news stories that have popped up in my news feed) and sharing screengrabs of her private conversations with Billy. If there was still a chance of this working out a few days ago, it's gotta be gone by now and she only has herself to blame.

  21. #2211
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  22. #2212
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    Yeah, what I'm getting out of those texts is that he assumed everyone was on board, was being very open and flexible in terms of how many songs she's play, suggested only a few songs a night, because of shit happening with her shoulder and he couldn't stop the machine. Her role was "getting smaller" to accommodate her injury.

  23. #2213
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    In all fairness if Billy is going to act like he never offered her the job then she has every right to show that he’s full of shit.

    I’ve got to admit, we don’t even have an official announcement and this reunion is already more entertaining than anything the guy has done in this past decade, even more than the Siddhartha boxsets. A true showman

  24. #2214
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    I love the Pumpkins, and I honestly do not care at this point who plays bass. I know that puts me in the minority of fans for some reason, but I really don't. I do not understand at all this need for it to be the same lineup from 20 years ago. It's not 20 years ago.
    Last edited by think i'm a fire engine; 02-13-2018 at 09:25 AM.

  25. #2215
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    It's apparently the same bassist he used from the Mason co-tour. I just wish Billy let this developed naturally and didn't go overboard too quick. They don't need to be this big, theatrical, Broadway show, arena band right now. He put too much pressure and tried to rush this whole thing. It sounds like Billy doing the usually Billy shit and he hasn't really grown or changed one bit. Playing the same exact setlist and everything times down to the exact minute is not what the original Pumpkins were ever about. He should have taken this year to simply jam amd rehearse with his "friends" and allowed them the time to just have fun and reconnect and become the unit they once were. But no, nothing can stop Billy's fight for relevance.
    Last edited by neorev; 02-13-2018 at 09:29 AM.

  26. #2216
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    If tickets aren’t $600 and there’s a FL date I’ll probably go to a show but if Billy is doing the whole thing out of a desperate bid to feel relevant enough by his own bizarre set of standards when he should be grateful he’s still a theatre band in an era where so many of his peers aren’t (down to Manson playing state fairs, for fuck’s sake), then it’s frustrating as hell when he wants to act like it’s some good vibes friendfest.

    Seeing him say it doesn’t matter that there’ll always be fans wanting to see them says a lot about his attitude — the guy has some weird myth in his head about his band and believes they should be able to do stadium shows in an era where almost no one can do those, and honestly, who wants to go to one? It’s ridiculous. Their music has always been at its best when it’s been raw, confrontational and intimate and the guy seemed to be embracing that with those In Plainsong tours, and now it’s back to the dream of being some 70s-era arena band. He hates the constant focus on older material so he does an extensive reissue campaign. He hates being held to the image of the old band so he gets a female bassist and Jimmy on drums. He encourages the nostalgic image of the band, then gets pissed at it.

    The guy seems incapable of being happy with what is overall an amazing legacy, even if the last fifteen years have been less kind (and a big part of why is due to his insistence on doing shit as difficulty as possible). He was responsible for a band that inexplicably was the biggest thing in the world, released two instant classics still well-remembered and got away with some of the most indulgent, weirdo shit in the mainstream at the time because of it. A cult debut, two iconic records and niche releases like Adore and Machina being given massive label support is a career anyone should be proud of. People across several generations still listen to and remember his work when most bands get forgotten within a year of being relevant. He’s able to run a hippie tea shop and drive around the desert and never work a day in his life if he doesn’t want to because of it and yet he still has this impossible standard for the band.

    He seems less interested in being some artistically respected musician and more in leaving behind a Kiss-style legacy, which most would regard as an insult and yet he’s openly said as much in recent years. He’s got some of the most raw talent of his generation at what he does but seems totally uninterested in it. He seems less disappointed by the sellout culture of arena rock and more jealous of it, and it’s just lame. If this reunion had been planned out right it could be an amazing moment and instead it’s a dramafest of weird instagram posts and back and forth text messages and internet countdowns. I don’t think he has any idea what he really wants out of any of this, let alone artistically, and that’s why every project is some weird half-formed mess. It felt like he knew what he wanted with Oceania and it’s the only developed thing with its own identity since Machina. It’s baffling and hard to root for and feels like endless amounts of good will getting cashed in on, railed against and squandered project after project.
    Last edited by kleiner352; 02-13-2018 at 09:48 AM.

  27. #2217
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    I don't think it's so much that he's not happy with his legacy, but that he wants to eclipse it, which he does not understand is just not fucking possible, and would be a fool's errand even if sell-out arena tours were still a thing that worked in rock and roll land to any but three bands of his generation. He doesn't want to feel trapped by the past - he's not the first artist to dislike kowtowing to fan demand and playing the hits - the fact that he's even doing this at all is amazing - but he's never had good perspective or a clear view on what 'being a respected artist' constitutes. He's tried to cultivate respect as an artist, but because he's so goddamned neurotic and sensitive, all it took was some asshole on the internet going "pick up an electric guitar" to make him shelve a heartfelt project about his hometown. So he conflates respect with fame because he just does not understand that a world where everyone respects everything he does is nothing but fantasy. He can't take criticism and never could.

  28. #2218
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    Alternative Nation apparently conducted a 4-hour interview with D'Arcy which should go up tonight. And her Facebook has again gone missing.

    I'm getting alcohol on the way home.

    And I'm starting my own Smashing Pumpkins. With hookers and blackjack.

  29. #2219
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    MCIS is still my favorite record ever...and it's not even close.

    The talent, writing, emotion, and atmopshere is almost impossible to beat for me. Especially during my teenage years.

    It also helped that the production team was close to perfect, and it was all four of them at their very peak.

  30. #2220
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    Oh BTW, I found the quote from Flood.

    https://tapeop.com/interviews/115/sm...tudio-history/

    Flood: When you watched them live, at that time, during Mellon Collie..., I don't think I've recorded a better band. They were so amazing, but it had to be all four of them there. They all needed each other in different ways. The groove and the feel of the combination of all of them; when they were really on it, nailed it, and knew what they were doing, it was amazing.

    AND

    Billy Corgan: Most producers usually get out of the way with me with guitars. They know that I'm a charging bull there. They don't have a whole lot to work to do with me on the guitar, so one could argue I've rarely been produced on the guitar. Vocally, however, I think I've benefited from working with great producers like Flood, who've gotten the best out of me as a vocalist. I probably haven't done as good a job when I've produced myself.

    (sounds about right)

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