The Smashing Pumpkins

[Shadaloo]

But in general, I think writing and performing music has an athletic quality to it, and plenty of musicians and performers seem to fall off in their 30s. There's definitely survivors, but it seems a lot more rare to not experience a dip in your abilities similar to athletes.

I've never been on board with ascribing artistic capacity directly to age, strictly speaking. What I think happens is the artist loses touch with who his audience is, or their inspiration, or their work becomes rote, and they stumble because they're just tired of the routine. A lot of the time after a protracted break or a re-evaluation they can come back refocused and revitalized. I'm thinking of how AIC against all odds came back when nobody ever thought they could, how Soundgarden was back off to a promising return before we lost Chris, Bowie's entire rocky 80's period. Robert Smith now doing three-hour shows and talking about feeling refreshed. It's IMO just really common to see artists fall off in their 30s because a lot of them have been at it for a decade plus nonstop by that point. To keep consistent quality through a lifetime would be an Olympian feat. And that's what Bill tries to do because everything's a competition to him.

I think that's one of Billy's problems - never really took a break. SP-> Zwan->Solo->SP again. No break for about 28 years. He kept pushing and pushing and overwriting things to the point where nobody's sure what he's fucking singing about anymore. I mean:

"Fallen lovers and useless friends
Must you glare?
As life uncovers our unions pulled threadbare
Pleasure taps it's vein"

That's lovely, kinda. But it's also unintelligible without having to sit, stare at it, and offer an interpretation.

And all this with the conscious choice made of having nobody around to tell him no or to critique his work. Bill's problems are many - megalomania, narcissism, inability to take criticism and general - but for someone who once captured hearts with "I used to be a little boy, so old in my shoes" and "despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage" - the fact that he seems to have forgotten to how write universal lyrics that fucking speak to people is the worst kind of death for his ability to captivate audiences.

[Pbgut]

I've never been on board with ascribing artistic capacity directly to age, strictly speaking. What I think happens is the artist loses touch with who his audience is, or their inspiration, or their work becomes rote, and they stumble because they're just tired of the routine. A lot of the time after a protracted break or a re-evaluation they can come back refocused and revitalized. I'm thinking of how AIC against all odds came back when nobody ever thought they could, how Soundgarden was back off to a promising return before we lost Chris, Bowie's entire rocky 80's period. Robert Smith now doing three-hour shows and talking about feeling refreshed. It's IMO just really common to see artists fall off in their 30s because a lot of them have been at it for a decade plus nonstop by that point. To keep consistent quality through a lifetime would be an Olympian feat. And that's what Bill tries to do because everything's a competition to him.

I think that's one of Billy's problems - never really took a break. SP-> Zwan->Solo->SP again. No break for about 28 years. He kept pushing and pushing and overwriting things to the point where nobody's sure what he's fucking singing about anymore. I mean:

"Fallen lovers and useless friends
Must you glare?
As life uncovers our unions pulled threadbare
Pleasure taps it's vein"

That's lovely, kinda. But it's also unintelligible without having to sit, stare at it, and offer an interpretation.

And all this with the conscious choice made of having nobody around to tell him no or to critique his work. Bill's problems are many - megalomania, narcissism, inability to take criticism and general - but for someone who once captured hearts with "I used to be a little boy, so old in my shoes" and "despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage" - the fact that he seems to have forgotten to how write universal lyrics that fucking speak to people is the worst kind of death for his ability to captivate audiences.

Very good points. I am aware mostly of Bowie's rocky 80s period out of all the lifers (and Dylan's too - he had a rough time for awhile and never totally recovered, especially vocally) and my analysis of it was tied in with my ageist theories and figuring that it took some time to adapt with a different set of skills and evolved capabilities, but your theory makes more sense, especially in terms of exhaustion. I do feel like there are adaptations that have to be made for age - not everyone can do the incredible scream/singing throughout their entire career in our heavier genres, not everyone can play as hard without it coming off as being strained. I've also noticed so many cognitive changes in myself even just in my 30s that I assumed there was some credence to it. It's happens with so many people – including, for me, our beloved Trent, for awhile, who took so many breaks I generally just attributed to age and a need to change your approach. But your take is very valid I think.

[sonic_discord]

^^ Maynard was just saying something along those lines in a recent APC interview. (I'll update this if I remember which one.)

EDIT: Here's the relevant part of the interview:

The years of experience have also given him more control over his voice. He compares it to the lessons of Brazilian jiu-jitsu and the martial arts grandmaster Hélio Gracie, who emphasized technical skill over speed and strength, which fade with age. "You're not going to be strong and fast anymore — you've got to be more clever," says Keenan, himself a jiu-jitsu devotee. Likewise, some of the greatest rock singers, from Jagger to Cornell, gained depth and ability that eclipsed the physical range they enjoyed as younger men. "This is a perishable item," Keenan says of his singing voice. "So you start realizing, 'OK, this is how I take care of this thing.' And then it presents you with all these options because now you're stronger in ways you weren't before — more control, more subtlety."

[GulDukat]

Frank Sinatra (although some of his early work is fantastic) didn't peak as an artist until he was around 39/40. He was probably at the top of his game when he was in his 40s and had some great albums and songs into his 50s and beyond.

[deadwinterskies]

Frank Sinatra (although some of his early work is fantastic) didn't peak as an artist until he was around 39/40. He was probably at the top of his game when he was in his 40s and had some great albums and songs into his 50s and beyond.

One could argue that the difference is that Sinatra wasn't writing/producing his own material.

[thevoid99]

One could argue that the difference is that Sinatra wasn't writing/producing his own material.

Yeah but he didn't need to. His voice alone and what he brought to those songs were the reason why he's an artist. Just like Elvis.

[Pbgut]

Yeah but he didn't need to. His voice alone and what he brought to those songs were the reason why he's an artist. Just like Elvis.

I don't really know Sinatra but I was speaking more in terms of people who write and perform, and particularly in the rock and pop realm where many people aren't trained musicians or composers, and thus may not have the skill set to adapt to various changes that come with age (being less emotional, which is a huge part of the foundation of making music, is another huge change I've noticed in myself and friends as we've gotten earlier that I forgot to mention). And just wondering and trying to figure out why there's often a huge dip in quality in rock or pop bands when people hit some part of their thirties. As Shadaloo pointed out, the sheer exhaustion that may come from being a performer and artist, may influence things or even be the main factor. It's often written off as rock and pop being a "young person's game" but this could make more sense. Or it could be other factors I just haven't thought about.

If Sinatra got better as he aged (which I'm sure he did, I just don't listen to him), I'd bet that an increased maturity and control over his instrument that can come with age and/or experience could have been a huge deal.

[Shunt]

I don't really know Sinatra but I was speaking more in terms of people who write and perform, and particularly in the rock and pop realm where many people aren't trained musicians or composers, and thus may not have the skill set to adapt to various changes that come with age (being less emotional, which is a huge part of the foundation of making music, is another huge change I've noticed in myself and friends as we've gotten earlier that I forgot to mention). And just wondering and trying to figure out why there's often a huge dip in quality in rock or pop bands when people hit some part of their thirties.

I always thought that's a good point, considering that classical composers tend to peak late in their careers.

[GulDukat]

If Sinatra got better as he aged (which I'm sure he did, I just don't listen to him), I'd bet that an increased maturity and control over his instrument that can come with age and/or experience could have been a huge deal.

Good point. Sinatra, in his early (Columbia) years sounds almost like a different singer--far smoother and there's a certain innocence, especially with a song like "Someone to watch over me." Later on, in his 40s, not only did he have more of his signature bravado, but you could tell he was a damaged man--no doubt his divorce from Ava Gardner really broke his heart. So not only did his voice improve during the beginning of middle age, but life experience, such as having his career crash (he lost his Columbia and movie contract) and two divorces, improved him as an artist. The mix of bravado while still wearing his heart on his sleeve in part made Frank so special. It also helped that he started working with the great Nelson Riddle and happened to possess the greatest voice in the history of recorded music, and also sang great songs--Porter, Gershwin, Berlin, etc.

Here is what Frank might have said to Billy: "Hey kid, lighten up, will ya. Ya got sometin kid, go wit it. Loosin' up, swing Billy-boy. No more woe-is-me. Woe-is-me is when no one comes to da joint to see ya except the cleanin' lady. You sir are an artist."

That's my rip-off on an actual letter Frank sent to George Michael.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...me-1990-959297

[tremolo]

Yeah but he didn't need to. His voice alone and what he brought to those songs were the reason why he's an artist. Just like Elvis.

That’s more like an craftsman as opposed to an artist.

[Shadaloo]

Solara will be the next single, music video will feature at least two mimes

[implanted_microchip]

Oh thank god, that’s the perfect amount of mimes!

[eversonpoe]

Oh thank god, that’s the perfect amount of mimes!

NO MIMES!



(seriously, i fucking hate mimes)

[GulDukat]

I'm looking at the Boston show on ticketmastsr. Still a lot of empty seats, but not a complete embarrassment, i.e. the band Boston when they played the Garden last year. In general, how do things look now?

[implanted_microchip]

I looked on Ticketmaster out of curiosity and they still have a ton of tickets available for Tampa, even a few pairs in the front sections still left, and they want almost $300 each for those. I think regionally it’s going to be a very hit and miss tour with some markets doing surprisingly well and others being absolutely depressing to go to. I feel like if I went to the Tampa show I’d buy a cheaper seat and count on an upgrade because there is no way they’re selling enough to fill the lower bowl.

[GulDukat]

I looked on Ticketmaster out of curiosity and they still have a ton of tickets available for Tampa, even a few pairs in the front sections still left, and they want almost $300 each for those. I think regionally it’s going to be a very hit and miss tour with some markets doing surprisingly well and others being absolutely depressing to go to. I feel like if I went to the Tampa show I’d buy a cheaper seat and count on an upgrade because there is no way they’re selling enough to fill the lower bowl.

Dear Billy,

It's not 1996. Dial-up Internet, the walkman, video stores, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Friends, Seinfeld, Slobodan Milosevic, Benie Babbies, Tamagotchi, Circuit City, The Clinton Administration and The Smashing Pumpkins playing a packed arena tour are all things from that year that aren't coming back.

[allegro]

Dear Billy,

It's not 1996. Dial-up Internet, the walkman, video stores, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Friends, Seinfeld, Slobodan Milosevic, Benie Babbies, Tamagotchi, Circuit City, The Clinton Administration and The Smashing Pumpkins playing a packed arena tour are all things from that year that aren't coming back.

As a response to your Sinatra comment earlier in the thread: I love Frank, but he really should have retired WAY before he did; he got really sloppy, it was awful. Ugh.

Billy is just trying to reclaim his youth.

Ain't happening.

[GulDukat]

As a response to your Sinatra comment earlier in the thread: I love Frank, but he really should have retired WAY before he did; he got really sloppy, it was awful. My Mom was a lifelong Sinatra fan (she just turned 80) and she saw him in Vegas in his late years and she really wished she HADN'T, it took her a long time to erase that from her memory.

Yeah, I know someone who saw him in 1990 and said he forgot some of the words. I have some shows from the late 80's and he still sounds pretty great. He was probably more hit-or-miss in his last few years of touring. I did rather enjoy his Duets albums from the early/mid 90's.

[allegro]

Yeah, I know someone who saw him in 1990 and said he forgot some of the words. I have some shows from the late 80's and he still sounds pretty great. He was probably more hit-or-miss in his last few years of touring. I did rather enjoy his Duets albums from the early/mid 90's.

Even THAT was pretty heavily-processed, ham-fisted Phil Ramone production, and he was never in the room with the other people doing the duets.

I'm just saying that holding out Sinatra as an example of creativity in a Billy Corgan thread isn't really all that genuine; Sinatra contributed his own sense of timing and phrasing, but he never wrote a song, never wrote lyrics, and he was always very careful to credit all of people who did, including the arrangers and conductors and orchestras and all of those who made him look good.

Sinatra was more of an actor, taking a play and a script and giving it his own performance.

But he wasn't writing the plays. And he was careful to point that out, always.

[GulDukat]

Even THAT was pretty heavily-processed, ham-fisted Phil Ramone production, and he was never in the room with the other people doing the duets.

I'm just saying that holding out Sinatra as an example of creativity in a Billy Corgan thread isn't really all that genuine; Sinatra contributed his own sense of timing and phrasing, but he never wrote a song, never wrote lyrics, and he was always very careful to credit all of people who did, including the arrangers and conductors and orchestras and all of those who made him look good.

Sinatra was more of an actor, taking a play and a script and giving it his own performance.

But he wasn't writing the plays. And he was careful to point that out, always.

A poster said something about artists losing something in their 30's and I pointed out that Sinatra peaked, creativity, later on, in his 40's. And of course other people assisted Frank with his music, but he was still the chairman and he was an artist. As far as Duets goes, other people have made the same criticisms and those are fair points, but I still enjoyed them.

[allegro]

A poster said something about artists losing something in their 30's and I pointed out that Sinatra peaked, creativity, later on, in his 40's.

That's the argument we are making, right there. The word "creativity." He wasn't doing anything creative. Other people were doing the creative part. Frank showed up and sang.


Rachmaninov wrote Prelude in G Minor and .

That doesn't make Evgeny Kissin "creative" in any sense of the word. It certainly makes him talented, but not creative.

We must not confuse "technique" for "creativity."

[implanted_microchip]

We’ve got almost 2 pages of Sinatra discussion and mime hate; so Pumpkinland is clearly going great

[GulDukat]

That's the argument we are making, right there. The word "creativity." He wasn't doing anything creative. Other people were doing the creative part. Frank showed up and sang.

I couldn't disagree more. It's like saying someone provided Leanardo da Vinci with a canvas and paint and told him to paint a broad with an awkward smile, and all he did was make the brush strokes. But maybe we should take this to the Sinatra thread.

[versusreality]

sorry, I know this is a Pumpkins thread but this talk about Sinatra made me remember this parody skit from the Howard Stern TV show in the early 90's when Frank started to become a bit forgetful on stage. Billy West is Frank in the clip.

[GulDukat]

sorry, I know this is a Pumpkins thread but this talk about Sinatra made me remember this parody skit from the Howard Stern TV show in the early 90's when Frank started to become a bit forgetful on stage. Billy West is Frank in the clip.

We all get old or die getting there.

[GulDukat]

We’ve got almost 2 pages of Sinatra discussion and mime hate; so Pumpkinland is clearly going great

Ten ways Sinatra changed the world.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...orld/76381754/

[allegro]

I couldn't disagree more. It's like saying someone provided Leanardo da Vinci with a canvas and paint and told him to paint a broad with an awkward smile, and all he did was make the brush strokes. But maybe we should take this to the Sinatra thread.

da Vinci was an actual artist who had to study fine art and who actually CREATED that art; it wasn’t paint-by-numbers and he filled in the colors.

Corgan writes the lyrics and the music, so he’s creating the music, not merely interpreting it.

[allegro]

Ten ways Sinatra changed the world.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/...orld/76381754/

None of that involved creating something; it involved personality, talent, Star appeal, technique, but not not ounce of creativity.

Hence, he never had to worry about running out of ideas, since he never needed any in the first place. He never played an instrument, never produced an album, never wrote a song’s melody or lyrics, never wrote a “concept” for an album, that was all the people behind him.

People like Corgan, meanwhile, CAN actually run out of creative ideas; creativity is not a bottomless well.

[GulDukat]

None of that involved creating something; it involved personality, talent, Star appeal, technique, but not not ounce of creativity.

Hence, he never had to worry about running out of ideas, since he never needed any in the first place. He never played an instrument, never produced an album, never wrote a song’s melody or lyrics, never wrote a “concept” for an album, that was all the people behind him.

People like Corgan, meanwhile, CAN actually run out of creative ideas; creativity is not a bottomless well.

Read the ones about interpreting the songs and creating the very idea of the concept album--and Frank did chose the songs, thus creating his concept albums. That's being creative, that's being an artist. And of course he played an instrument--his voice, he was "the voice."

[allegro]

Read the ones about interpreting the songs and creating the very idea of the concept album--and Frank did chose the songs, thus creating his concept albums. That's being creative, that's being an artist. And of course he played an instrument--his voice, he was "the voice."

You’re polluting this thread. I’ve been a Sinatra fan since before you were a zygote and I’m not going to argue this any more in this thread, it’s a stupid argument since we are primarily discussing songwriting, anyway.

Back to Billy Corgan and his inability to write songs after 40, especially since he’s become a douchebag Libertarian Alex Jones follower who thinks the world is just too damned P.C. and that millionaires pay too much taxes. Even though the state is struggling. Let them eat cake, Billy?

Such angst, ugh. His next album will be called “Fuck Taxing The Rich”. He’s said, here, that he’s worked hard and he’s sick and tired of paying for other people.

Oh, the anger.

Anger!!! Billy is uber angry that people didn’t buy $6 cups of tea at his vegan tea house in a residential neighborhood and discuss Hesse or artistic photography or Carl Sandburg or whatever even though there’s soccer practice and gymnastics and family time, Billy forgot he doesn’t live in a college town but instead lives in a family neighborhood with parents and kids.

https://m.chicagoreader.com/chicago/...t?oid=37051765

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-th...ative-crusader

Shanahan says you’re paying for your own cold pizza Billy