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Faceplams: But the character was white in the comics.Originally Posted by eversonpoe
Behold the morning star
But the character was white in the comics.
Only By Night
This whole "They should have used an Asian-American actor" is ridiculous. Can we just leave race out of anything of anything these days? I bet you if they did go along with the initial actor who read for the part, you would have people with pitchforks complaining about some ridiculous nonsense about not sticking to the source material, or make it a white issue. *Sigh* just enjoy it for what it is and if you don't like it? Well that is cool as well.
she/her/hers
...did you guys read the article? it has very sound reasoning.
Behold the morning star
But it's not the character. Iron fist isn't a very popular character, but his name is Danny rand not Danny Wu.
I'm sick of this shit where being white is bad thing these days.before anyone jumps down my throat, I am Cuban and Spanish, not an ounce of white in me.
Only By Night
I read it for sure. I do see the dynamic of having someone that is an actual martial artist doing the part of Rand, and having an Asian-American finding his roots being more compelling... I get that. I just feel like it is always about race no matter what the valid reasoning may be. Say they cast a White-American woman for the role of Colleen Wing, or change Misty to a white character; I would find it very interesting to see how a white actress would portray any of those roles, but of course, people would lose their shit all over again. It's damned if you do, damned if you don't with this topic recently. Shit, I remember when they cast Johnny Storm with Michael B.Jordan and people just couldn't wrap their heads around with the idea of that being such a drastic change from the source material... Mind you that movie was shit along with the writing, but the writing in Iron Fist is atrocious, and I feel even adding Lewis Tan to the mix, the writers would still have no idea how to make it work and make the show much more compelling.
Edit: However, I feel adding Lewis Tan to the mix would have made the choreography a bit more edgy even though I still thought it was great. Hell, even seeing a somewhat Asian couple would be pretty cool.
Last edited by Self.Destructive.Pattern; 03-22-2017 at 11:39 PM.
she/her/hers
i think the big difference for me is if you put a person of color in a role and it makes it more interesting, that's awesome. if you take a role AWAY from a person of color, that's shitty, and it's what hollywood has been doing forever.
representation matters, and that's what i care about.
and yeah, i've heard that iron fist's issues extend far beyond the missed opportunity of changing the character up, so i know i'm kind of beating a dead horse here, i just think this stuff is important.
@Conan The Barbarian i don't think being white is inherently bad (i'm white, for the record), but i think that given all of the power structures that exist in the US especially, and the way media is presented to people, it'd be nice to have as much diversity as possible so that shitty situations don't continue to be perpetuated. i don't personally need a character to look like me to be inspired by them, but a lot of young, impressionable kids have an easier time relating to characters that look like them. wouldn't it be great for young asian kids out there to see someone who looks like them playing a badass, unique character instead of a stereotype?
Active Member
love the woman portraying Madame Gao. One of the few people that's actually having fun in this show.
Only By Night
Oh, it definitely important... I hear ya. I just find it a bit tiresome when females, or other races constantly complain about them never having a strong female lead, or not enough this or that. I can name about 10 different characters that are female leads that totally kick ass, as with other races. Look at Into The Badlands... strong Asian male lead in Daniel Wu, along with a number of white females that completely knock it out of the park. I haven't looked into the buzz about that show to see if there is any controversy on that end, but when people say that these roles are non-existent throughout other races is a bit much, while there are plenty of them out there.
Throbbing Member
I want to take this chance to educate people that come into this thread to discuss everything Marvel.
I'm not trying to call you out, it is not my intention and please don't take it the wrong way; but speaking about genetics, and the three established races that have been around for the longest time in the scientific community, says you are wrong.
There are only three races in the world: Caucasian, Negroid, and Mongoloid.
Scientifically speaking you are Caucasian and Negroid going by your statement.
Historically speaking Cuba is a melting pot of European and African races.
Furthermore, depending on what part of Spanish your heritage is from you may even have Middle-Eastern traits that descend from when the Moors conquered Spain.The majority of Cubans descend from Spaniards. Despite its multi-ethnic composition, the culture held in common by most Cubans is referred to as mainstreamCuban culture, a Western culture largely derived from the traditions of Western European migrants, beginning with the early Spanish settlers, along with other Europeans arriving later such as the Portuguese and French, along with West African culture which is somewhat influential despite the fact that most minority Afro-Cubans are of Caribbean origin.
I think no mater the opinion or viewpoint someone has about racial and gender equality I am glad that it is being discussed. In this day and age, movies, tv shows and other forms of entertainment that stems from Comics (or any medium for that mater) is closer to bridging the racial and gender divide.
Take a look at this article: http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswit...tity-in-comics
And this: http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswit...tity-in-comics
Also this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic...ypes_in_comics
Like virtually every other form of entertainment, the world of comic books has been increasingly grappling with issues of diversity especially over the last several years as social media and Internet platforms have amplified the voices of minority creators and critics. And in many ways, there’s been a sea change. “Diversity of every sort—racial diversity, gender diversity, acknowledging minority sexualities—is experiencing an explosion of recognition and representation in comics,” says C. Spike Trotman, creator of the long-running webcomic Templar, Arizona.
What is striking about the upcoming slate is that it is finally bringing diversity to the big screen of comic book movies after a nearly decade long absence. Wonder Woman will finally receive a feature film in 2017, joined by The Black Panther that year, and Marvel’s female powerhouse, Captain Marvel, in 2018.
Previously, Shaquille O’Neal, of all people, had broken the race barrier in bringing the comic-book character Steel to movie life in 1997, followed, in short order, by Wesley Snipes’s Blade, the Vampire Hunter, triology. Helen Slater was the first female headliner with Supergirl in 1984, and it was another two decades until Halle Berry played the lead in 2004’s poorly-reviewed Catwoman. Yet almost none of the movies since then – including the two-dozen comic book films of the past two years – has had as a lead a woman or racial minority.
The struggle to portray the full diversity of America is nothing new for the source material for these adaptations, the great American comic book. The great comics innovator Will Eisner gave the heroic lead in The Spirit an African-American sidekick named Ebony White. With his pronounced lips and thick accent, Ebony embodied every offensive stereotype already thrust upon the African-American community in vaudeville, film, and radio. Eisner later expressed regret for playing into those stereotypes, and his peers largely decided to avoid depicting people of color. Of course, no representation may be as bad as misrepresentation. Although superheroes had arrived on the scene with Superman’s debut in 1938, it would be another quarter of a century before a hero of color would appear with the Black Panther’s premiere in 1966.
I think that this discussions is very important and pertinent to this thread, because no matter how anyone tries to spin it, there has always been many different cultural influences in the source material that has been used in almost all the comics that have been created.
Last edited by ziltoid; 03-23-2017 at 03:21 PM.
Only By Night
^^^ Thanks for posting that. People need to be informed and talking and learning is the most important aspect. Many people tend to look at this issue through a black and white telescope instead of trying to understand anything cohesive or constructive.
On Marvel news... Seem like Michael Shannon is in talks to play Cable in Deadpool 2! Love the idea so far.
Last edited by Self.Destructive.Pattern; 03-23-2017 at 11:50 AM.
Active Member
I'm not trying to call you out, it is not my intention and please don't take it the wrong way; but whiteness is a political, not a scientific, construct. It's interesting to me that he said he doesn't have a drop of 'whiteness' in him, and you associate that with the 'science' of 'races.' the concept of whiteness--and the political associations that accompany that--long predate (and were not extinguished by) the developments in biology that you are discussing. In fact, the concept of whiteness has shown an amazing ability to both shape and adapt to the prevailing scientific understanding of "races."
Throbbing Member
Yes, you are right but I think you were missing my point. If you look at all of the discussions about The Iron Fist being "white' and not "Asian" you can see that the context was about race. It is important to distinguish the social construct of whiteness (and others) and the differences of Race, Gender, Sexual Orientation, Religion etc. It's a tool used to cause unfounded conclusions that blurs the lines between race identity and actual race which may cause further social divide. I was trying to point out that there are only 3 races, and that the social constructs that are being used for discussion only hinder social growth and understanding of human race and is used for discrimination (not in the discussions here, but it applies to the global argument). Sorry if I didn't explain this properly.
Our picture of racial and ethnic disparities in the health of older Americans is strongly influenced by the methods of collecting data on race and ethnicity. At one level there is a good deal of consistency in data collection. Most Americans and most researchers have in mind a general categorical scheme that includes whites, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, and American Indians. Most Americans and nearly all researchers are also aware that these general categories disguise significant heterogeneity within each of these major groups. To the extent possible, recent research has attempted to identify and compare subgroups within each of the major racial and ethnic groups, making distinctions by country of origin, nativity, and generation within the United States. Most researchers generally agree that these categories are primarily social constructions that have changed and will continue to change over time.
A central tenet of whiteness studies is a reading of history and its effects on the present, inspired by postmodernism and historicism, in which the very concept of racial superiority is said to have been socially constructed in order to justify discrimination against non-whites. Since the 19th century, some writers have argued that the phenotypical characteristics associated with specific races are without biological significance, and that race is therefore not a valid biological concept.[1] Many scientists have demonstrated that racial theories are based upon an arbitrary clustering of phenotypical categories and customs, and can overlook the problem of gradations between categories.[2] Thomas K. Nakayama and Robert L. Krizek write about whiteness as a "strategic rhetoric," asserting that whiteness is a product of "discursive formation" and a "rhetorical construction" in the essay "Whiteness: A Strategic Rhetoric." Nakayama and Krizek write, "there is no 'true essence' to 'whiteness': there are only historically contingent constructions of that social location."[3] Nakayama and Krizek also suggest that by naming whiteness, one calls out its centrality and reveals its invisible, central position. Whiteness is considered normal and neutral, therefore, to name whiteness means that one identifies whiteness as a rhetorical construction which can be dissected to unearth its values and beliefs.
We can't continue these discussion until we acknowledge these beliefs and ideas are interwoven in every form of entertainment.
http://www.ucalgary.ca/cared/whiteness
Also check out this very informative link: https://qz.com/663624/hollywoods-sup...ith-whiteness/Understanding Whiteness
To understand the history of the ideology of ‘race,' and combating racism today, involves understanding (and challenging) ‘whiteness' as the foundation of racial categories and racism.
At first glance, it may seem that in common usage in Alberta, the word ‘white' is used to refer specifically to ‘skin colour' or ‘race.' Initially, this might seem like reverting back to, or reinforcing, the old (and racist) categories of European imperialism, and in some cases, it may in fact be meant that way! (We are profoundly concerned, for example, by the increase in neo-Nazi/white supremacist activity in our province.) In our experience, however, we have found that when people refer to ‘white people' (either in self-identifying, or identifying individuals/groups), it is in fact being used as a shorthand reference to whiteness, about which people may have varied understandings you will need to clarify. In other words, it is being used as a shorthand for the privileges/power that people who appear ‘white' receive, because they are not subjected to the racism faced by people of colour and Indigenous people.
As with the term ‘race,' it is important to clarify the differences between "white" (a category of ‘race' with no biological/scientific foundation) and "whiteness" as a powerful social construction with very real, tangible, violent effects. Here are some useful definitions of ‘whiteness,' followed by a list of its key features:Racism is based on the concept of whiteness--a powerful fiction enforced by power and violence. Whiteness is a constantly shifting boundary separating those who are entitled to have certain privileges from those whose exploitation and vulnerability to violence is justified by their not being white (Kivel, 1996, p. 19).‘Whiteness,' like ‘colour' and ‘Blackness,' are essentially social constructs applied to human beings rather than veritable truths that have universal validity. The power of Whiteness, however, is manifested by the ways in which racialized Whiteness becomes transformed into social, political, economic, and cultural behaviour. White culture, norms, and values in all these areas become normative natural. They become the standard against which all other cultures, groups, and individuals are measured and usually found to be inferior (Henry & Tator, 2006, pp. 46-67).Drawing on the important work of Ruth Frankenberg (1993), the authors of Teach Me to Thunder: A Manual for Anti-Racism Trainers, write that whiteness is a dominant cultural space with enormous political significance, with the purpose to keep others on the margin....white people are not required to explain to others how ‘white' culture works, because ‘white' culture is the dominant culture that sets the norms. Everybody else is then compared to that norm....In times of perceived threat, the normative group may well attempt to reassert its normativity by asserting elements of its cultural practice more explicitly and exclusively. (21)An example of this normative whiteness was the furor concerning Baltej Singh Dhillon's fight to wear a turban, for religious reasons, as part of his RCMP uniform. The argument that the Mountie uniform was a ‘tradition' that should not be changed belied white Canadians' perceptions of Sikh people and communities of colour as ‘threatening' their position of privilege in Canada.
Key Features of Whiteness
Whiteness is multidimensional, complex, systemic and systematic:
- It is socially and politically constructed, and therefore a learned behavior
- It does not just refer to skin colour but is ideology based on beliefs, values behaviors, habits and attitudes, which result in the unequal distribution of power and privilege based on skin colour (Frye, 1983; Kivel, 1996)
- It represents a position of power where the power holder defines the categories, which means that the power holder decides who is white and who is not (Frye, 1983)
- It is relational. "White" only exists in relation/opposition to other categories/locations in the racial hierarchy produced by whiteness. In defining ‘others,' whiteness defines itself.
- It is fluid - who is considered white changes over time (Kivel, 1996)
- It is a state of unconsciousness: whiteness is often invisible to white people, and this perpetuates a lack of knowledge or understanding of difference which is a root cause of oppression (hooks, 1994)
- It shapes how white people view themselves and others, and places white people in a place of structural advantage where white cultural norms and practices go unnamed and unquestioned (Frankenberg, 1993). Cultural racism is founded in the belief that "whiteness is considered to be the universal . . . and allows one to think and speak as if Whiteness described and defined the world." (Henry & Tator, 2006, p. 327)
White versus Whiteness
- race is scientifically insignificant.
- race is a socially constructed category that powerfully attaches meaning to perceptions of skin colour; inequitable social/economic relations are structured and reproduced (including the meanings attached to skin colour...) through notions of race, class, gender, and nation.
- whiteness is a set of normative privileges granted to white-skinned individuals and groups; it is normalized in its production/maintenance for those of that group such that its operations are ‘invisible' to those privileged by it (but not to those oppressed/disadvantaged by it); it has a long history in European imperialism and epistemologies (for those who are of mixed ancestry and ‘pass' as white, this normativity, I would assume, would not occur).
- distinct but not separate from ideologies and material manifestations of ideologies of class, nation, gender, sexuality, and ability.
- the meaning of ‘whiteness' is historical and has shifted over time (ie Irish, southern European peoples-Italian, Spanish, Greek; have at times been ‘raced' as non-white).
Last edited by ziltoid; 03-23-2017 at 03:19 PM.
Active Member
The music in Legion has been wonderful. This week's episode was easily the best of the season so far.
Stubby Member
Legion is brilliant.
Active Member
This week's episode delivers all plot, tons of forward motion , and no filler. If you want things made clear, this is the one for you. Excellent climax to the action also. So cool.
Active Member
This sequence is beautiful
Can we also talk about how amazing Aubrey Plaza has been this season? She definitely should get Emmy consideration for her performance.
Saul Williams fan.
Jeff Russo has done some amazing work. Fargo (also by Noah Hawley, huh) made me an instant fan of his. Even the generic BRAAAAAMMM heard whenever The Eye makes an appearance was developed into a full theme in Chapter 7.
Active Member
Active Member
Looks Alex Ross-ish. Is it him?
Active Member
Something I saw on another forum: Given that the "A" is next to a large conference room that spans several stories...and given how big your average road sign is...how big is Spider-Man?
Active Member
Active Member
Am I the only person getting really sick of the 5 second pre-trailer they show at the start of action trailers now? Is there really a reason for you to show me 3 seconds of trailer footage and the title card at the very beginning and THEN start the actual trailer?
Anyway, all gripes aside, looks cool. This'll be a good place for some of that Marvel silliness to shine, and hopefully Michael Keaton kills it.
she/her/hers
Legion is amazing. every frame is gorgeous. only two episodes in and can't wait to keep watching.
Member
I'm totally with you on that. I don't like it either. This film looks really good and plus, Michael Keaton as the bad guy is a plus for me. I love Michael Keaton.
Only By Night
I have one more episode left, but this show is brilliant on all levels and deserves so much more attention than it is getting. One of the best series in the last 5 years for me on any outlet.
Active Member
Wait till you get to episode 7!!
Flaccid Member
Having watched the entirety of Iron Fist, I can confidently say that Jessica Henwick's Colleen Wing is a much stronger lead than the title character, and kicks all kinds of ass on the show.
Now, to catch back up with Legion.
Only By Night
I totally agree. She was a saving grace for the show for me after watching her kick ass in the cage matches. I really wanna see her and Misty team up somewhere down the road.
As for Legion.... Holy shit!! So psyched to see what happens tonight in the finale. I knew I was right when they showed the little Beagle in the last episode but had to be reassured. How much more clever can this show get?
she/her/hers
we watched up through episode 5 of Legion last night (and then had to watch a Voyager before bed so we didn't have nightmares). holy shit, this show, man...
also, Spoiler: that is the most terrifying rendition of rainbow connection i've ever heard, but props to dan for actually playing and singing it!
oh, and i had NO idea the dog wasn't real, but i had a feeling that there was something weird with Lenny for a little while...my wife suggested we go as David & Lenny for halloween, which i think would be awesome.
Active Member
Interesting literary connection here from my buddy Jeff in the Spidey trailer.
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