halo twenty eight. hesitation marks. 09.03.2013

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

Here we are coming up on 5 years later, and the Everything topic still simmers. Wow.



Aw, c’mon man. I love you to death and genuinely do get a skewed enjoyment out of your posts, but Trent is on record stating the track was more his take on Joy Division and New Order material. And that thematically it was his arrogant declaration of survival against the odds. The track almost seems more poignant as time rolls on and more and more of his contemporaries are sadly forever gone.



Is it one of the best nin tracks? No. But not every track can be Happiness in Slavery. There is nothing wrong with criticism, but the aftermath on Everything was over the top with the outrage and the alleged petition from fans to remove it from the album, just hilariously absurd. Simply push the skip button for the track. Or buying the tracks you like and not the ones you don’t is also an option.

Going for a range of sounds and moods is a good thing for an album, giving it emotional peaks and valleys. Treading new ground and trying different things is important to most artist. While on it’s own Everything isn’t a personal favorite of mine, it works (albeit a little jarring and weird) within the album. But are you gonna tell me that a track like Big Man With A Gun isn’t a little jarring and weird within TDS, or Starfuckers, Inc. isn’t a little jarring and weird within TF?



I’d like to think that when Trent goes to Arby’s, he orders the Meat Mountain.

I'm all for Trent trying new things and taking risks ("Burning Bright" is a perfect example)..I love when artists try new things in an effort to challenge their fans..I hate when artists try new things and do something commercial...Trent trying a new thing with 'Everything' seemed like catering to the lowest possible denominator...Its as poppy as NIN can get and seems like a play for radio exposure (specifically the vocal take. I dont even mind the music. But dear god, those high pitch pop vocals)

[BRoswell]

I'm all for Trent trying new things..

I hate when artists try new things...

Freudian slip?

Also, I think there's a difference between something being more accessible and something being made for the lowest common denominator. If Trent really wanted to appeal to those people, he wouldn't cite Fear, New Order, The Cure, and Joy Division as influences.

[Helpmeiaminhell (is now in hell)]

Freudian slip?

Also, I think there's a difference between something being more accessible and something being made for the lowest common denominator. If Trent really wanted to appeal to those people, he wouldn't cite Fear, New Order, The Cure, and Joy Division as influences.

My point being I dont see any similarities to those bands in that song...maybe the guitar line sounds a bit 80s postpunk-ish, but once the vocals come in, it takes the song into pop territory.....And the only Cure song it draws parallels to is "Friday I'm In Love' with the silly pop vocal..A song even Robert Smith has admitted is a "stupid song"...The vocals are what ruined that song for me...Musically, it actually had promise...

[sweeterthan]

I guess that post I made last month defending Hes Marks:



...where I championed it as a daring, creative outlier in his discography went completely over your head. Hell, I never even once claimed Everything was bad, per se. But offer anything close to a judgement in regards to a song you yourself enjoy and suddenly I'm a close-minded asshole who needs new headphones?

My headphones are just fine. So is thinking for myself. I am free...I can see...always here...finally..

I never said you’re an asshole. I said the song doesn’t sound like jimmy eat world and to listen to it again.

Reznor has written a ton of pop songs. Pretty hate machine is all pop songs. Fans acting like everything was a huge break from the norm and it’s somehow beneath them to listen it is weird to me. It ruined Everything, the single. The backlash was unwarranted. It’s a great, beautiful nin song that doesn’t sound like all the nin songs and that’s ok.



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[paul_guyet]

I love that this track is still tearing our lives apart.
Is this the most divisive NIN track since...I don't know..."Deep"? People really seemed to be of two minds when that came out. Nothing like "Everything", but I recall some major hate thrown its way as well.

[gorast]

Was the problem with Deep the song itself, or the music video? The song isn't a creative marvel, but it's not like it's horrendous.

[Mataxia]

Never really understood the hate for Everything. NIN has plenty of "dark" songs that are cheesier than Everything. And I don't think it's any poppier than say, Only (among many other poppy NIN singles). Major key doesn't automatically equal trash pop. And as others have said, I think the people who think it's just a super happy song are misinterpreting it.

[BRoswell]

Was the problem with Deep the song itself, or the music video? The song isn't a creative marvel, but it's not like it's horrendous.

I think people saw that Trent didn't like how the video turned out and automatically assumed that he didn't like the song. I think the fact that he played it live during the With Teeth era shows that he at least liked it enough to perform it.

Personally, I love Deep. Definitely an underrated track. The video? Well, it is what it is.

[paul_guyet]

Was the problem with Deep the song itself, or the music video? The song isn't a creative marvel, but it's not like it's horrendous.

Definitely more the video, but I just remember a lot of division over the song as well.

[henryeatscereal]

I got no problem with "Everything" because it's "pop", i like "That's what i get " a lot (from PHM), so i don't think it has anything to do with the genre

[witte]

I got no problem with "Everything" because it's "pop", i like "That's what i get " a lot (from PHM), so i don't think it has anything to do with the genre

"That's what I get" has more soul. "Everything" sounds to me little bit 'spastic/forced'. That's what I find from all those poppy song from the last decennium. We know, it's just a matter of taste.

[HurtinMinorKey]

Worst song. But I do think the chorus is rad. I don't feel it fits well on the record, which doesn't help it. There is a entire thread dedicated to this topic. It seems like most (at least those speaking up) don't mind it.

At this point, it's the only memorable song on the album for me. I don't love it, but it sounded more genuine than just about everything else on the album.

[Amaro]

Running sounds like an outtake from Niggy Tardust tbh. Expect Saul's voice popping up anytime.

That’s fair to say, because in that same vein, for me, it has a strong sound of things a la The Fragile, which is probably why I really like it.

At this point, it's the only memorable song on the album for me. I don't love it, but it sounded more genuine than just about everything else on the album.

oh snap dude!!!

Just no!!

[sonic_discord]

At this point, it's the only memorable song on the album for me. I don't love it, but it sounded more genuine than just about everything else on the album.

You didn't find Various Methods of Escape or I Would for You to be genuine? I don't even know what to say...

[HWB]

You didn't find Various Methods of Escape or I Would for You to be genuine? I don't even know what to say...

Or While I'm Still Here
Or In Two
Or Find My Way
Or Running....
Fuck it, every track.

Hesitation Marks is raw as hell.

[Substance242]

Listened to Hesitation Marks (audiophile, btw what happened to this interesting experiment) yesterday evening, mp3 player and pillow over my face (yeah, I like the warmth and disconnect), after about week without listening to anything - and it worked so well, aaaaargh, orgasm. Even the more repetitive songs are OK, but what follows them is mind-blowing. And the last three songs are one of the best LP endings I know. Even the remixes are good ("Find my way" some strong sustained notes, and then when it becomes peaceful, shivers), and the four "Conversation" demos I can't remember if I cut myself from some iTunes-only file or from where. So, Hesitation Marks are still good, don't you forget that! :-)

Edit: The last three I mean For you - In two - While+Noise.
I just don't know anymore...
I just don't know anymore...
I just don't know anymore...

[gamecat235]

... And the last three songs are one of the best LP endings I know. Even the remixes are good ("Find my way" some strong sustained notes, and then when it becomes peaceful, shivers), and the four "Conversation" demos I can't remember if I cut myself from some iTunes-only file or from where. So, Hesitation Marks are still good, don't you forget that! :-)

Edit: The last three I mean For you - In two - While+Noise...

I’ve made the argument in several non-ETS spaces that While I’m Still Here / Black Noise is as perfect a song as I could have hoped for, and a great ending of an album to boot (it's easily T5 for best album closers). Hell, I wrote about just this pairing a few years ago over here. I'll go on record now, with many years of absorbing Hesitation Marks, that it is still my favorite NIN album, and that WISH/BN close the album perfectly. Perfectly.

[Max]

I was listening to Hesitation Marks today and a realization occurred to me that others may have noticed already noticed and commented on as well.

Musically, Hesitation Marks is a hip-hop/rap album. This is true of every song minus Everything, possibly In Two.

I'm not sure if this was his intention, I'm not sure it even matters, but that's totally what it is and this fascinates me. I think what is really surprising is none of the interviews or articles at the time seemed to touch on this at all, and he never really seemed conscious of it, or if he was he never said so.

Anyone else have any thoughts about this?

[StockAvuryah]

I was listening to Hesitation Marks today and a realization occurred to me that others may have noticed already noticed and commented on as well.

Musically, Hesitation Marks is a hip-hop/rap album. This is true of every song minus Everything, possibly In Two.

I'm not sure if this was his intention, I'm not sure it even matters, but that's totally what it is and this fascinates me. I think what is really surprising is none of the interviews or articles at the time seemed to touch on this at all, and he never really seemed conscious of it, or if he was he never said so.

Anyone else have any thoughts about this?

What elements of the music are hip-hop to you ?

[bobbie solo]

I was listening to Hesitation Marks today and a realization occurred to me that others may have noticed already noticed and commented on as well.

Musically, Hesitation Marks is a hip-hop/rap album. This is true of every song minus Everything, possibly In Two.

I'm not sure if this was his intention, I'm not sure it even matters, but that's totally what it is and this fascinates me. I think what is really surprising is none of the interviews or articles at the time seemed to touch on this at all, and he never really seemed conscious of it, or if he was he never said so.

Anyone else have any thoughts about this?

[henryeatscereal]

I was listening to Hesitation Marks today and a realization occurred to me that others may have noticed already noticed and commented on as well.

Musically, Hesitation Marks is a hip-hop/rap album. This is true of every song minus Everything, possibly In Two.

I'm not sure if this was his intention, I'm not sure it even matters, but that's totally what it is and this fascinates me. I think what is really surprising is none of the interviews or articles at the time seemed to touch on this at all, and he never really seemed conscious of it, or if he was he never said so.

Anyone else have any thoughts about this?

Some of the beats in songs like "Satellite", "Running" and "While I'm Still Here" do sound hip hop-ish, but i think the whole album has all kinds of influences and sounds, at moments it sounds a bit influenced by LCD Soundsystem.

Come at me!

[chuckrh]

Although I prefer the current line-up, I really liked the expanded band with Pino Pallidino & the back up singers (wish Adrian Belew hadn't backed out!). It was different for NIN & IMHO quite good. & the visuals on that tour were stunning.

[Max]

Some of the beats in songs like "Satellite", "Running" and "While I'm Still Here" do sound hip hop-ish, but i think the whole albums has all kinds of influences and sounds, at moments it sounds a bit influenced by LCD Soundsystem.

Come at me!

I would agree that there are other influences in there. But also consider that hip hop itself includes some of these influences these days too. Definitely blurry lines between genres.

Also consider that he did most of the first pass of composing on the Maschine from what I understand and that is very beat-oriented. Often used to compose hip-hop beats.

Finally, I would just propose that anyone interested just go give it a listen. Tune out the lyrics and listen to the music and consider the idea. Everything is more Joy Division and In Two is a bit of a stretch towards the end of it, but every other track would work on a hip hop record.

I think back to previous songs and there are very few that would work in the same way. Down in it of course. Closer. Maybe a couple off With Teeth and maybe Echoplex off The Slip? But not a lot.

I would be very interested to hear Trent’s thoughts. Perhaps he would totally disagree with me? I’m happy to hear other points of view. I really don’t have stake in it. I like Saul Williams, RTJ, and a few others, but in general it’s not my genre.

Hesitation Marks feels more and more like an anomaly in the catalogue these days. I really like it but it’s also very unique compared to what came before and after and somewhat puzzling to me now after the Trilogy.

[chuckrh]

I would agree that there are other influences in there. But also consider that hip hop itself includes some of these influences these days too. Definitely blurry lines between genres.

Also consider that he did most of the first pass of composing on the Maschine from what I understand and that is very beat-oriented. Often used to compose hip-hop beats.

Finally, I would just propose that anyone interested just go give it a listen. Tune out the lyrics and listen to the music and consider the idea. Everything is more Joy Division and In Two is a bit of a stretch towards the end of it, but every other track would work on a hip hop record.

I think back to previous songs and there are very few that would work in the same way. Down in it of course. Closer. Maybe a couple off With Teeth and maybe Echoplex off The Slip? But not a lot.

I would be very interested to hear Trent’s thoughts. Perhaps he would totally disagree with me? I’m happy to hear other points of view. I really don’t have stake in it. I like Saul Williams, RTJ, and a few others, but in general it’s not my genre.

Hesitation Marks feels more and more like an anomaly in the catalogue these days. I really like it but it’s also very unique compared to what came before and after and somewhat puzzling to me now after the Trilogy.

some great songs on the record. "find my way" is 1 of my favorite NIN songs & to my ears "copy of a" was sounding great this year. as good as anything in the catalog & that's saying a lot!

[StockAvuryah]

...
Finally, I would just propose that anyone interested just go give it a listen. Tune out the lyrics and listen to the music and consider the idea. Everything is more Joy Division and In Two is a bit of a stretch towards the end of it, but every other track would work on a hip hop record.

Isn't that just Trip Hop then

[r_z]

It's an interesting idea, but ultimately too far-fetched, imo. Genres of any kind aren't limited to the use of certain equipment, for one.

The record was probably influenced by many different artists or genres. There certainly is a Hip Hop element to it in SOME of the beats, but there are many examples, where there are clearly cues from other genres.

See, for example: "Copy Of A" vs. " "

[katara]

Trent's been into Hip Hop from the beginning with Down In It. The Fragile was supposed slated to be "a funk hip-hop record", which obviously changed a bit, but he still worked with Dr Dre. Later, with Saul Williams, interestingly on some of the unreleased songs from that same album.

To say the whole of Hesitation Marks is supposed to be rap album is maybe stretching it a little. However, the influence is undeniable.

[Max]

I just want to make the distinction- a rap/ hip hop album *musically*. That he is not rapping or speaking over the music makes a big difference in terms of the final genre. But I would encourage everyone to go and listen to the actual music itself and tune out the lyrics and tell me I’m wrong about it.

And again it’s way different from every other NIN album in this regard. You could not turn off The Slip or The Fragile and have Mos Def or Killer Mike rhyme over it. But almost all of Hesitation Marks could easily serve that purpose.

It is probably because it is more beat-based than the other records, and it’s beat based because that’s how he started composing it.

Again this is just how it strikes me. Style and genre are subjective and overlap a lot.

[Krazy]

I personally don’t hear it at all on HM. Closest thing to a NIN rap/hip hop record is probably Year Zero- and I think Trent mentioned it a bit back in the day. Not all of the songs but some with the more “electronica “ production.

And Down In It is definitely a rap rock tune. Not sure if he meant do that back in the day on purpose. Regardless, do yourself a favor and play DII on someone’s car stereo that has a subwoofer. It’s pretty damn cool with the hard hits and bass drops even to this day.

[SM Rollinger]

I personally don’t hear it at all on HM. Closest thing to a NIN rap/hip hop record is probably Year Zero- and I think Trent mentioned it a bit back in the day. Not all of the songs but some with the more “electronica “ production.

And Down In It is definitely a rap rock tune. Not sure if he meant do that back in the day on purpose. Regardless, do yourself a favor and play DII on someone’s car stereo that has a subwoofer. It’s pretty damn cool with the hard hits and bass drops even to this day.

Vessel hammers too, but what really shreds cones is the first Puscifer record.