Faceplams Faceplams:  0
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 41

Thread: Obama Report Card

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Highland Park, IL
    Posts
    14,384
    Mentioned
    994 Post(s)

    Obama Report Card

    I don't know where else to put this, and it seems like potential hijack drift in the General Headlines thread, but there is a LOT of stuff going on right now and I think we need a thread, to discuss?

    The Biggest Obama Scandals Are Proven and Ignored


    Reuters
    Prompted by Peggy Noonan's claim in The Wall Street Journal that "we are in the midst of the worst Washington scandal since Watergate," Andrew Sullivan steps forward to defend Pres. Obama's honor. "Can she actually believe this?," he asks incredulously. "Has this president broken the law, lied under oath, or authorized war crimes? Has he traded arms for hostages with Iran? Has he knowingly sent his cabinet out to tell lies about his sex life? Has he sat by idly as an American city was destroyed by a hurricane? Has he started a war with no planning for an occupation? Has he started a war based on a lie, and destroyed the US' credibility and moral standing while he was at it, leaving nothing but a smoldering and now rekindled civil sectarian war?"

    An Obama critic, having overplayed her hand, gave Sullivan an opening to respond with what amounts to, "It isn't as bad as Watergate, nor as bad as George W. Bush." Let's concede those points. I don't much care what Obama's Republican critics say about him. The scandals they're presently touting, bad as two of them are, aren't even the worst of Team Obama's transgressions.

    I have a stronger critique. Sullivan hasn't internalized the worst of what Obama's done, because his notion of scandal is implicitly constrained by whatever a president's partisan opponents tout as scandalous. If they criticize Obama wrongly, he defends Obama proportionately.

    To see what he's forgotten as a result, let's run once more through the first questions in Sullivan's latest Obama apologia.

    Has this president broken the law, lied under oath, or authorized war crimes?

    Yes, President Obama has broken the law on multiple occasions. Despite clearly stating, in a 2008 questionnaire, that the commander-in-chief is not lawfully empowered to ignore treaties duly ratified by the Senate, Obama has willfully failed to enforce the torture treaty, signed by Ronald Reagan and duly ratified by the Senate, that compels him to investigate and prosecute torture. As Sullivan put it earlier this year, "what Obama and Holder have done (or rather not done) is illegal."

    Obama also violated the War Powers Resolution, a law he has specifically proclaimed to be Constitutionally valid, when committing U.S. troops to Libya without Congressional approval. Or as Sullivan put it in 2011, "I'm with Conor. The war in Libya becomes illegal from now on. And the imperial presidency grows even more powerful."

    On the subject of war crimes, Sullivan wrote that "Obama and attorney-general Eric Holder have decided to remain in breach of the Geneva Conventions and be complicit themselves in covering up the war crimes of their predecessors - which means, of course, that those of us who fought for Obama's election precisely because we wanted a return to the rule of law were conned." In a separate entry, he went so far as to say that Obama is "a clear and knowing accessory to war crimes, and should at some point face prosecution as well, if the Geneva Conventions mean anything any more." That seems rather farther than Noonan went in her column.

    Obama has not, as Sullivan points out, traded arms for hostages with Iran, or started a war with no planning for the inevitable occupation that would follow. But there are different questions that could be asked about Obama that would perhaps be more relevant to his behavior.

    Has he ordered the assassination of any American citizens in secret without due process? Did he kill any of their teenage kids without ever explaining how or why that happened?

    Has he refused to reveal even the legal reasoning he used to conclude his targeted killing program is lawful?

    Has he waged an unprecedented war on whistleblowers?

    Has he spied on millions of innocent Americans without a warrant or probable cause?

    Does he automatically count dead military-aged males killed by U.S. drones as "militants"?

    Did he "sign a bill that enshrines in law the previously merely alleged executive power of indefinite detention without trial of terror suspects"?

    There is more, as Sullivan knows, and it all amounts to a scandalous presidency, even if it happens that few Republicans care about the most scandalous behavior, and have instead spent years now obsessing about Benghazi. The IRS scandal and Department of Justice leak-investigation excesses are worrisome, but the biggest scandals definitely go all the way to the top, and are still largely ignored even by commentators who have acknowledged that they're happening. Sullivan has noted the stories as they broke, and seemed, for fleeting moments, to confront their gravity, noting the violation of very serious laws, and even once stating that Obama deserves to be prosecuted! Yet in response to Noonan, he writes, "So far as I can tell, this president has done nothing illegal, unethical or even wrong." How inexplicably they forget.

    And Sullivan is hardly alone. At the New York Times, Mother Jones, The New Yorker, and beyond, exceptional journalists take great care to document alarming abuses against the rule of law, the separation of powers, transparency, and human rights perpetrated by the Obama Administration. On a given subject, the coverage leaves me awed and proud to be part of the same profession. But when it comes time for synthesis, bad heuristics take over. Confronted with the opportunism and absurdity of the GOP, Obama's sins are forgiven, as if he should be graded on a curve. His sins are forgotten, as if "this president has done nothing illegal, unethical or even wrong."

    Yes. He. Has.
    Last edited by allegro; 05-17-2013 at 09:13 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    476
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Well, the stories that are supposed to be scandals either aren't true (Benghazi) or not the responsibility of the White House (IRS), and the stories that should be scandals aren't, because they either didn't break the law (AP - thanks to the Patriot Act) or noone is willing to turn them into stories (Bush torture program, drones).

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...falling-apart/

    Peggy Noonan would rather not talk about the Bush torture program. Andrew Sullivan would rather not talk about the legitimacy about certain wars and Conor Friedersdorf is preparing to make the inevitable argument for why libertarians should vote for Rand Paul, not Hillary Clinton in 2016.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,369
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Everybody thought Obama would be their savior. and he took advantage of that while he threw everybody under the bus while distracting you with stupid things that shouldnt have been an issue in the first place.

    Oh good now Gay People can get married. Thats fine. Doesnt affect me one bit. Doesnt affect you. Unless your gay, So good for you. But overall who cares. Never should have been an issue in the first place. Let people do what they want to do as long as it doesnt negatively affect another person. REGARDLESS of your own beliefs.

    But while everyone was up in arms about that, Monsanto got a bill passed that allows them to do whatever the hell they wanted, and cant be held legally responsible for the damage that they cause in the process.. to humans and the environment.

    Obama = Bush. Obama just tells your you're pretty when he's bending you over.
    Last edited by DVYDRNS; 05-17-2013 at 01:00 PM. Reason: horrible grammar.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    2,491
    Mentioned
    400 Post(s)
    Obama = Bush is as absurd as Gore = Bush. I get that your bottom line really is that US Presidents leave very nuanced legacies, no matter which party they're affiliated with. But they're not perfect substitutes for each other. And as disappointing as some of the decisions of this administration is, if Obama was Bush, and you had the choice between Bush and someone even more conservative (Remember, Rick Santorum was the runner up to Mitt Romney), would you vote Bush?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,369
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Maybe my point was misinterpreted somewhat...

    They're all different sides of the same coin. They all don't give a damn about the common people. They are going to do what they want. They are going to go along with the agenda of whoever put them in office.

    the difference is, some of them will tell you about what they're doing, and some will hide behind smoke and mirrors and use distraction to get their goals met.

    You do get my point tho.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia
    Posts
    917
    Mentioned
    10 Post(s)
    Sort of off topic, but same sex marriage IS an important issue. Homophobia can affect heterosexual people too. I am straight but was still relentlessly bullied in high school for my perceived homosexuality. If removing institutionalised homophobia by allowing marriage equality goes part of the way towards ending the ostracism and othering of LGBT identifying people (actual or perceived), then it is a major victory.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Highland Park, IL
    Posts
    14,384
    Mentioned
    994 Post(s)

    Obama Report Card

    Quote Originally Posted by ambergris View Post
    Conor Friedersdorf is preparing to make the inevitable argument for why libertarians should vote for Rand Paul, not Hillary Clinton in 2016.
    I don't think that's necessarily true; he wrote this last September. Just because you believe in civil liberty doesn't mean you're a Libertarian. (I speak from personal experience, as a former longtime member of the ACLU when I was also a card-carrying member of the Democratic Party.) I have friends who agree with him and voted Green Party last November.
    Last edited by allegro; 05-17-2013 at 10:38 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,369
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)

    Obama Report Card

    Quote Originally Posted by xmd 5a View Post
    Sort of off topic, but same sex marriage IS an important issue. Homophobia can affect heterosexual people too. I am straight but was still relentlessly bullied in high school for my perceived homosexuality. If removing institutionalised homophobia by allowing marriage equality goes part of the way towards ending the ostracism and othering of LGBT identifying people (actual or perceived), then it is a major victory.
    I said it shouldn't have been an issue in the first place. As in everybody should be nice to each other and focus on things that are important.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    476
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    I don't think that's necessarily true; he wrote this last September. Just because you believe in civil liberty doesn't mean you're a Libertarian. (I speak from personal experience, as a former longtime member of the ACLU when I was also a card-carrying member of the Democratic Party.) I have friends who agree with him and voted Green Party last November.
    I will get back to you on this in two years....
    Conor Friedersdorf will never, ever vote green. Many 'official' libertarians are just republicans in different clothing who in the end always find a reason to support the republican party platform. Conor Friedersdorf, Megan McArdle, Peter Suderman, Nick Gillespie, Reason magazine.

    Conor Friedersdorf is definitely a Rand Paul fan:
    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...ranoid/273938/
    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...-words/273787/
    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...merica/274939/
    http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...-wrong/273880/

    And here you'll find Conor's priorities: It doesn't matter to him that Rand Paul opposes the Civil Rights Act of 1964, but it matters to him that Rand Paul took a principled stand against the Obama drone program, or in Rand Paul's words: "We're talking about (killing) people eating in a cafe, at home, in a restaurant." He's not opposed to the use of drones in war... he's just voicing a few paranoid concerns.
    Using Rush Limbaugh to support your position also doesn't strike me as civil rights-minded.

    The Republicans are scared of Hillary Clinton and since she is out of office at the moment, they can't criticize any present actions so they have to rely on Benghazi. I have no idea what they are trying to prove, but it's all they have. The present scandals are obviously a manufactured sequence of events.
    The supposedly manipulated White House emails on Benghazi: manufactured by Republicans
    The IRS story: planted by Republicans

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Highland Park, IL
    Posts
    14,384
    Mentioned
    994 Post(s)

    Obama Report Card

    Okay, I'll give you that: he may very well be a Libertarian. But I sincerely doubt that he'll convert people into Libertarians. Hell, his above-referenced 2012 article didn't stop me from voting for Obama in 2012, even though I agree with some of the article.

    But let's get back to the title of this thread (I didn't intend for this thread to focus solely on that author, his article and his views).

    Despite the real possibility that a few of these current controversies could have been manufactured by Republicans to kill a Hillary Clinton Presidency in 2016 (which I doubt they can use to sway voters 3 years from now), I still feel disappointed in Obama's performance so far.

    I voted for him because he taught Constitutional Law in law school; I really thought he'd uphold the Constitution during his term. But he hasn't attempted to do what he promised with GITMO, and he not only ignored the Patriot Act, he's been using the Patriot Act to do more unconstitutional stuff. Yes yes, McCain would have been worse, Romney would have been worse, but that doesn't make me feel any better about Obama.

    This AP stuff bothers me. I don't like it. At all.

    it's far too early to give Obama his final Report Card but he just got an F from me for that test.
    Last edited by allegro; 05-18-2013 at 07:21 AM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    476
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    I would also say that the AP story is the worst of the three. And if it turns out that the government acted completely legal, than this should be the real scandal... but it won't be.
    And I also agree that criticizing Obama from a civil liberties/good government perspective is the most justified way. It's what Glenn Grennwald occasionally does (when he's not writing ten paragraphs about some lofty ideal that no existing government can be expected to follow...see Bradley Manning).

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,210
    Mentioned
    174 Post(s)
    #1 = fucking THANK YOU @allegro for making this thread. I have been giving Obama the benefit of the doubt (he had to be better than Bush.. right?) but things are just horrible now. The Obama = Bush claims are becoming fairly accurate at a macro level.


    Quote Originally Posted by ambergris View Post
    to make the inevitable argument for why libertarians should vote for Rand Paul, not Hillary Clinton in 2016.
    As a libertarian, fuck Rand Paul. We were suspicious of his neocon tendencies but listened to him over the months. Last week he threw Libertarians under the bus. I know no remaining Libertarians who like him now.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,210
    Mentioned
    174 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post
    Obama = Bush is as absurd as Gore = Bush.
    It's just dishonest to pretend that the list of negatives that are shared between Obama and Bush dont VASTLY outnumber the positive differences. The only major difference is the rhetoric used to justify it.

    Obama is still playing world police

    Obama is still infringing on Civil Rights through both extending Bush's and creating new. Yea, that actually make him worse than Bush.

    Almost all of the 35 Articles of Impeachment presented against Bush in 2008 apply to Obama. Hell, Obama has some that Bush didn't.


    And you know... I am just going to stop there. Comparing Obama and Bush is usually only done for two reasons. #1 - To make one side realize their own hypocrisy. This usually falls apart when one side just can't have the same visceral reaction to their own "team" as they did to the opposing team. I dislike them both but have judged them by their own actions. To me, they are equally bad in slightly different ways right now. #2 - To justify the actions of the current guy because the last guy did it too.

    Let's just judge Obama for what he has done. If we can't honestly do that, then we are fucked.
    Last edited by DigitalChaos; 05-18-2013 at 02:05 PM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    1,369
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)

    Obama Report Card

    They're both just as bad as the other in different ways.

    Measure all the Bush BS and then measure all the Obama BS. I'd be willing to bet you could fill two huge containers just about equally. Maybe even moreso with Obama.

    Bush was just an idiot not allowing people to have rights and starting wars for money. Obama gives you one right and takes ten away. And starts wars for money.
    Last edited by DVYDRNS; 05-18-2013 at 03:41 PM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,210
    Mentioned
    174 Post(s)
    The IRS is on a roll! Let's add a bunch of HIPPA violations to the list. They illegally seized 60 million medical records. The lawsuit requests $25k per violation.
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...dical-records/
    Any bets on the next thing our administration implodes on?

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,210
    Mentioned
    174 Post(s)
    Obama Officials finally get explicit on the War on Terror... Looks like we will be at it for "at least another decade"
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...n-terror-obama

    That's definitely one of the worst things from Bush that many thought would change™, right?

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    9,229
    Mentioned
    552 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    Obama Officials finally get explicit on the War on Terror... Looks like we will be at it for "at least another decade"
    Cool. If only the libertarians would save us.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,210
    Mentioned
    174 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    Cool. If only the libertarians would save us.
    By ending the world occupation world police game? That certainly would fix it... along with fixing the debt and tons of other stuff.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    9,229
    Mentioned
    552 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    By ending the world occupation world police game? That certainly would fix it... along with fixing the debt and tons of other stuff.
    Totally. Can't wait till it happens. I'm holding my breath.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,210
    Mentioned
    174 Post(s)
    Jesus. This IRS thing may end up going all the way to election tampering, which would be impeachable.



    Fun fact: Nixon used the IRS to conduct discriminatory audits against political opponents. Hillary helped draft a charge against Nixon for it in a very fucking shady way that got her fired.





  21. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Highland Park, IL
    Posts
    14,384
    Mentioned
    994 Post(s)

    Obama Report Card

    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    The IRS is on a roll! Let's add a bunch of HIPPA violations to the list. They illegally seized 60 million medical records. The lawsuit requests $25k per violation.
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...dical-records/
    Ugh wow. Although, this isn't really Obama's direct responsibility and I don't think it should be on his report card.

    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    By ending the world occupation world police game?
    Imperialism has been a part of this country's history since its inception. We just like to call it "preserving freedom."
    Last edited by allegro; 05-21-2013 at 09:08 AM.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Highland Park, IL
    Posts
    14,384
    Mentioned
    994 Post(s)

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    476
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    The IRS is on a roll! Let's add a bunch of HIPPA violations to the list. They illegally seized 60 million medical records. The lawsuit requests $25k per violation.
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...dical-records/
    Any bets on the next thing our administration implodes on?
    Just out of curiosity, I checked the sources. The Washington Times is a notoriously conservative paper. So the article basically says that an unknown healthcare provider has sued the IRS. And the "Courthouse News Service" says that it's about the Fourth Amendment etc... What's the Courthouse News Service? "Courthouse News Service has a website that publishes articles from the plaintiffs perspective, citing quotes out of the complaint that has been filed. What is missing from their online publication is the answer the the complaint. Also missing is the ability for members of the public, or the defendant to reply to the complaint. So, if the complaint was written with numerous falsehoods, their one-sided writings can trick the public into thinking that the complaint us factual."
    Also, their CEO was accused of fraud, theft and child molestation.
    http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/courth...ud-thef-951667
    Courthouse news service has their own wikipedia page that consists of two lines and which is copied entirely into the Washington Times.
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/topic...-news-service/
    Last edited by ambergris; 05-21-2013 at 08:59 AM.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Highland Park, IL
    Posts
    14,384
    Mentioned
    994 Post(s)

    Obama Report Card

    Quote Originally Posted by ambergris View Post
    What is missing from their online publication is the answer the the complaint.
    Very good point.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,210
    Mentioned
    174 Post(s)
    @ambergris - You can read the full complaint here: http://global.nationalreview.com/pdf...int_051513.pdf Of course, it is an alleged wrongdoing until proven in court. I know nothing about Courthouse News Service but I see nothing that indicates fraud on their part with the complaint. The named lawyer is known for taking civil rights cases.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,210
    Mentioned
    174 Post(s)
    Let's see if Obama's campaign site is still up where he talks about whistle-blowers....
    ... yup!

    http://change.gov/agenda/ethics_agenda/
    Protect Whistleblowers: Often the best source of information about waste, fraud, and abuse in government is an existing government employee committed to public integrity and willing to speak out. Such acts of courage and patriotism, which can sometimes save lives and often save taxpayer dollars, should be encouraged rather than stifled. We need to empower federal employees as watchdogs of wrongdoing and partners in performance. Barack Obama will strengthen whistleblower laws to protect federal workers who expose waste, fraud, and abuse of authority in government. Obama will ensure that federal agencies expedite the process for reviewing whistleblower claims and whistleblowers have full access to courts and due process.



    Obama has change™ed

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    476
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    @ambergris - You can read the full complaint here: http://global.nationalreview.com/pdf...int_051513.pdf Of course, it is an alleged wrongdoing until proven in court. I know nothing about Courthouse News Service but I see nothing that indicates fraud on their part with the complaint. The named lawyer is known for taking civil rights cases.
    Maybe I am thinking that this is more sinister than it is, but why is "Courthouse News Service" written all over the document? Anyway, my suspicion is that the IRS case has unleashed the right-wing persecution complex and now certain publications see threats to conservatives all over the place (Well, that's no different from usual.). The National Review is, of course, another decidedly conservative magazine. So I wait for the story to break into the mainstream (that's what the story should do if it's real) until I begin to condemn.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Highland Park, IL
    Posts
    14,384
    Mentioned
    994 Post(s)

    Obama Report Card

    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    @ambergris - You can read the full complaint here: http://global.nationalreview.com/pdf...int_051513.pdf Of course, it is an alleged wrongdoing until proven in court. I know nothing about Courthouse News Service but I see nothing that indicates fraud on their part with the complaint. The named lawyer is known for taking civil rights cases.
    His point is that a Complaint without the Answer to Complaint is only one side of the story, it's slanted.

    There is no Case Number on that Complaint so that is not evidence that it has been filed.
    Last edited by allegro; 05-21-2013 at 01:49 PM.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,210
    Mentioned
    174 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by ambergris View Post
    Maybe I am thinking that this is more sinister than it is, but why is "Courthouse News Service" written all over the document? Anyway, my suspicion is that the IRS case has unleashed the right-wing persecution complex and now certain publications see threats to conservatives all over the place (Well, that's no different from usual.). The National Review is, of course, another decidedly conservative magazine. So I wait for the story to break into the mainstream (that's what the story should do if it's real) until I begin to condemn.
    that's fair
    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    His point is that a Complaint without the Answer to Complaint is only one side of the story, it's slanted.

    There is no Case Number on that Complaint so that is not evidence that it has been filed.
    Certainly. Except there is a case number: 37-2013-00038750-CU-CR-CTL (and the "electronically filed Superior Court of CA, San Diego. 3/11/2013") Having this come out 2 months after filing definitely points to it being dug up due to the political attention the IRS is getting right now. Still, if true... it's shitty and SHOULD get attention.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Highland Park, IL
    Posts
    14,384
    Mentioned
    994 Post(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    Except there is a case number: 37-2013-00038750-CU-CR-CTL (and the "electronically filed Superior Court of CA, San Diego. 3/11/2013") Having this come out 2 months after filing definitely points to it being dug up due to the political attention the IRS is getting right now. Still, if true... it's shitty and SHOULD get attention.
    ah, okay. I didn't see that on the Complaint. But, again, a Complaint without an Answer is too soon to tell. Wait to see if the Class Action even stands up in Court past the first hearing date, to see if it's allowed as a Class Action?

    I also don't see this as something that should go on Obama's Report Card, sorry.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions