Boston Marathon

[elevenism]

i AM scared that this may have been a "false flag" attack.
I don't buy every little conspiracy theory, but GWB worked for my grandfather here in stratford tx and died mysteriously in an "accident", shortly thereafter...and was pretty much ERASED from history, even though he built one of the first and most successful high capacity cattle feed yards ever.
Local legend says that he was killed by the mafia, but after his death, presidency of his company went to a guy named Bob Gow. Gow has been implicated in everything from the kennedy assassination to fucking 9/11. And he was a member of Skull and Bones, along with W. So i don't think it was the mafia.

I got facepalmed a couple of times for expressing my fear that this may have been a false flag attack earlier in the thread.
Hence, i am writing this to let you guys know that if i come off like a conspiracy nut, it's just because i have a good, healthy fear of it cause it hit so close to home.

[Leviathant]

i AM scared that this may have been a "false flag" attack.

To what end? Is the government going to use this event to take away my right to use homemade bombs?

[elevenism]

Leviathant, i don't really want to say because i don't want to be digitally crucified on ETS, as i have been in the past. BUT, since it's YOU asking, who has been so involved in running this site...

I am PRO gun control. Well, background checks anyway. It's not that, and i'm not one of THOSE guys. Deep down, however, i have long feared a SERIES of false flag attacks, to justify, at worst, martial law.
I don't buy the official 9/11 story for DAMN sure.
And i'm not saying i'm CONVINCED that this attack was "false flag," i just tend to question all of these things.
I fear a Year Zero world.

EDIT: Furthermore, the government wants us scared. We are easier to control that way. And finally, i think that the government might use something like this to draw attention away from something ELSE they are doing, something unpopular at best and sinister at worst. On top of that, i've just had a funny feeling about all this from the get go. i am NOT a conspiracy nut, but i am vigilant and EXTREMELY distrustful of the government. As a yellow dog left wing liberal dem, i thought Obama was our savior. I read his books. Sadly, he has disappointed me and further reinforced my belief that we live in a plutocracy, not a democracy.

[Leviathant]

I appreciate that you've pushed past your fear of getting attacked for what you believe - I don't ask to ridicule you, but to understand where you're coming from.

Frankly, I think that your fears are misplaced. I think that if anyone wants to go down the 'false flag' route, you'd have a slightly (slightly) stronger case casting your eye toward Russia. That morning, when I read that the suspects were Chechen, I thought, why would Chechens attack the US? They've been dealing with centuries of Russian aggression, what good could possibly arise out of Chechens attack Americans? It's not as though we have a dog in that fight at all.

While to my knowledge the US hasn't interfered in how Russia deals with its neighbors, the general feeling towards how the former USSR deals with terrorists seems to be uncomfortable disdain. Man, for all those people who whinge about how awful the US government is, read up on modern Russian history. But now that Chechen Islamists have attacked civilians in the US, that word "Chechen" is now solidified in US public opinion with "terrorist" and actions taken by Russia towards Chechens will now always be seen with that footnote by Americans.

I haven't read the precise citation of where it's said that the brothers' uncle worked with the CIA, but if that were the case, his resounding fury at the situation would come from a bigger understanding of the world stage and how this plays into things. He's absolutely right about how horrible it is that this action ties in American minds the word "Chechen" to the word "bomber." Read up on the history of ethnic Chechens, if you haven't spent time doing that already.

I find it patently absurd that the US Government would have anything to do with assisting or promoting the actions of the bombers. However, despite what I've just said, I don't really know if the subtle nuances that arise out of these actions would be worthy enough of a coordinated Russian operation.

As far as justifying martial law goes - do you think this was even an effective use of martial law? That's essentially what you saw go into action in Watertown. A city told to stay in their houses, a town with more police that population, militarized, going house to house, searching for a suspect who broke the law. And it didn't even result in locating the suspect. Great case for martial law, right? False flag failure.

I also somewhat surprisingly find all the hubbub about mirandizing the suspect to be completely irrelevant in this case, specifically because there is so much evidence that's been collected prior to capturing the suspect. Anything he says before mirandization can happily be thrown out of court as inadmissible evidence, and the case is so strong against him that it doesn't matter. They're not asking him questions to be used when charging him with crimes. His rights would be violated if he said stuff after being arrested but before being mirandized and they used that as evidence against him. If that happens, I take it all back, but given the circumstance, I actually strangely understand why they didn't give him the whole "You have the right to remain silent" thing.

Maybe I'm wrong about that. It's weird, but I feel like it makes sense. Maybe a problem arises in charging his conspirators, if they're outed as a result of what he says in between being arrested and being made aware of his rights.

I suspect that no matter how liberal you may be, once you get into the office of President, you have to work within the framework of the state of the office as it exists today. For reasons I cannot fully comprehend, our country is leaning rightward, and the best you can do is push against that, but not so hard that you break. I don't know that you'll see another president as liberally-minded as Obama get elected in the next few decades... even the Clintons are conservative by worldly measures, and are/would be even moreso within the office of POTUS. If Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan were in office, I wouldn't be surprised if we'd be at war with North Korea right now.

[Dra508]

I was mildly amused while channel surfing on XM when I heard some talk radio guy go off on a conspiracy theorist who called into his show. His theory, and he proved it with the caller, was that usually a conspiracy theorist (this, 9-11, whatever) had issues with their Dad. Food for thought.

Anyway, personally back in New England after been gone for all the hub bub. Going out to take the collective temperature....

[elevenism]

I think you give the american mind too much credit. Most americans don't know the word Chechen.
The word bomber means A-rab. Not Arab mind you, but A-rab. (Forget the fact that the middle east is composed of Arabs, Berbers, Persians, as well as Christians, Muslims and Jews.)
I'm willing to bet that if Americans were polled right now, the overwhelming majority would tell you that the Boston bombers were Arabs...just like they thought Iraq attacked us on 9/11.

[DigitalChaos]

While to my knowledge the US hasn't interfered in how Russia deals with its neighbors, the general feeling towards how the former USSR deals with terrorists seems to be uncomfortable disdain. Man, for all those people who whinge about how awful the US government is, read up on modern Russian history. But now that Chechen Islamists have attacked civilians in the US, that word "Chechen" is now solidified in US public opinion with "terrorist" and actions taken by Russia towards Chechens will now always be seen with that footnote by Americans.

You realize that the USA aided Chechnya during the 80's, right? It's the same stuff as what we did with al-Qaeda.

[elevenism]

I was mildly amused while channel surfing on XM when I heard some talk radio guy go off on a conspiracy theorist who called into his show. His theory, and he proved it with the caller, was that usually a conspiracy theorist (this, 9-11, whatever) had issues with their Dad. Food for thought.

Anyway, personally back in New England after been gone for all the hub bub. Going out to take the collective temperature....

Some conspiracy theories are fact. See the start of the vietnam war, the creation of the federal reserve bank, the "WMD's" in iraq. As far as 9/11, i would urge you to watch the Loose Change movies. They don't come out with wild theories...they just present facts and leave you to make your own judgement. And don't you find it strange that 50% of New Yorkers believe that the gvmt lied about 9/11?

This is all i'm going to say on this subject, except for, again, i'm not SURE about the Boston thing. I've just smelled a rat from the get-go, and haven't made my mind up yet.

[DigitalChaos]

I know the conspiracy nuts have been all over this one for a week plus, but it's the first I've seen a legitimate source:
http://www.local15tv.com/mostpopular...8z6eSDJEA.cspx

1 - We had a big presence of law enforcement actively looking for bombs. They failed to stop this. Another instance of safety fail and making it hard to convince people to give up more rights.
2 - Who the fuck runs drills on the day of a major event. Were they running some sort of entrapment sting that resulted in them losing control of the bomb?

[skip niklas]

3. What happened to the other devices found? The Boston Globe tweeted about an impending controlled demolition on Boylston st, across from the library, minutes after the initial blasts. Some sources say as many as two to three other bombs were found and disposed of, so why have those reports been erased from the discourse of the events and who placed those devices?

[Leviathant]

3. What happened to the other devices found? The Boston Globe tweeted about an impending controlled demolition on Boylston st, across from the library, minutes after the initial blasts. Some sources say as many as two to three other bombs were found and disposed of, so why have those reports been erased from the discourse of the events and who placed those devices?

They haven't been erased from the discourse of the events, you just haven't been paying close enough attention. Drinking from the firehose, I saw the reports go by that the devices were not actually bombs. They were suspicious objects and collected as such. I think they detonated one such suspicious object, but it turned out that the object itself contained no explosives.

Re: Chechnya, the 80s, USA - the comparison to al-Qaeda is premature. I understand the comparison with respect to a cold-war proxy battle between the US and Russia, but I think that's as far as that goes. The Chechen beef with Russia is almost as old as the United States of America.



I'd like to state for the record that if you want to discuss theoretical false flag exercises or secret government conspiracies, I encourage you to begin a "Conspiracy Theories" thread, and discuss them there to your heart's content. I don't want underinformed speculation (such as "those reports been erased from the discourse of the events") polluting this thread.

[Magtig]

Some conspiracy theories are fact. See the start of the vietnam war, the creation of the federal reserve bank, the "WMD's" in iraq. As far as 9/11, i would urge you to watch the Loose Change movies. They don't come out with wild theories...they just present facts and leave you to make your own judgement. And don't you find it strange that 50% of New Yorkers believe that the gvmt lied about 9/11?

Loose Change is widely discredited. In fact, if I recall there's an entire film devoted to dismantling it point by point. I think it was called, 'Loose Change Sucks' or something like that.

At any rate, people spend so much time questioning authorities that they don't bother to question their own opinions and speculations. If the 90s was all about think for yourself, question authority, can we make now be all about, 'Think. Question yourself.'

[playwithfire]

And don't you find it strange that 50% of New Yorkers believe that the gvmt lied about 9/11?

I don't think you've met many New Yorkers.

[Sutekh]

I've just smelled a rat from the get-go, and haven't made my mind up yet.

If you "smelled a rat" from the "get go", that means you decided something was wrong even before you had an adequate basis on which to do so... you obviously have made your mind up to a certain extent

2 - Who the fuck runs drills on the day of a major event. Were they running some sort of entrapment sting that resulted in them losing control of the bomb?

Mate seriously, close to a major event is exactly when you hold a drill - the further away from the event the drill is held, the less useful it is.

You realize that the USA aided Chechnya during the 80's, right? It's the same stuff as what we did with al-Qaeda.

"Al-Qaeda" and the Afghan Mujahideen assembled to fight the Soviets are not the same thing, sorry! This is something I hear again and again, and it's just not true. Some of the key personnel from that time period went on to work within the loose affiliation often described as Al-Qaeda, but it's not the same thing - it's like conflating the Baader Meinhof with the Soviet Union

[DigitalChaos]

Mate seriously, close to a major event is exactly when you hold a drill - the further away from the event the drill is held, the less useful it is.

close to = the day before
close to != ontop of :P


I'm curious what the takeaways from the drill were. Think it was anywhere near "complete failure"?

[Sutekh]

Like I said, It's best for a drill to be as close to the event as is possible (in case conditions change, personnel become unavailable or your drills have been observed), so it's really not remarkable at all.

As for failures - to be honest they have my sympathy - how do you strategise against something like this? From a terrorist's point of view, If your plan is simple, you keep a low profile and have few people to betray you, you'll probably succeed.

The real strategy involves foreign policy planners deeming blowback unacceptable! But good luck with that

[DigitalChaos]

That's why there is nothing we can really do about terrorism right now. Anything more is purely security theatre. Hell, a bunch of what we already have is security theatre.

[Sutekh]

Effective strategy is going to differ from country to country, but in terms of the typical threat etc then I agree.

The trouble is policymakers are afraid of compromise somehow validating terrorist organisations by giving them what they want

[DF118]

Some conspiracy theories are fact. See the start of the vietnam war, the creation of the federal reserve bank, the "WMD's" in iraq. As far as 9/11, i would urge you to watch the Loose Change movies. They don't come out with wild theories...they just present facts and leave you to make your own judgement. And don't you find it strange that 50% of New Yorkers believe that the gvmt lied about 9/11?

This is all i'm going to say on this subject, except for, again, i'm not SURE about the Boston thing. I've just smelled a rat from the get-go, and haven't made my mind up yet.

I was involved in a conspiracy at work today. That's just the way the world turns- people are political, manipulative, and goal oriented. That doesn't mean that just because something scary happens, it's anything other than what it is.

smelled a rat

You're not basing this on fact then, you're basing it on your expectations based on your own experiences and beliefs- that's the number one thing you shouldn't do.

I always liked Alan Moore's thoughts on this:

Yes, there is a conspiracy, indeed there are a great number of conspiracies, all tripping each other up… the main thing that I learned about conspiracy theories is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is, that it is not the Jewish banking conspiracy, or the grey aliens, or the twelve-foot reptiliods from another dimension that are in control, the truth is far more frightening; no-one is in control, the world is rudderless.

[Dra508]

I think you give the american mind too much credit. Most americans don't know the word Chechen.
The word bomber means A-rab. Not Arab mind you, but A-rab. (Forget the fact that the middle east is composed of Arabs, Berbers, Persians, as well as Christians, Muslims and Jews.)
I'm willing to bet that if Americans were polled right now, the overwhelming majority would tell you that the Boston bombers were Arabs...just like they thought Iraq attacked us on 9/11.

Nah, I wouldn't go THAT far. I did talk to a friend in Colorado back last Friday. I did have to explain Chechnya to her. She says "oh my, you know a lot." We'll, if you read paper or a book instead of turning your mind to mush with The Bachelor and American Idol......

Some conspiracy theories are fact. See the start of the vietnam war, the creation of the federal reserve bank, the "WMD's" in iraq. As far as 9/11, i would urge you to watch the Loose Change movies. They don't come out with wild theories...they just present facts and leave you to make your own judgement. And don't you find it strange that 50% of New Yorkers believe that the gvmt lied about 9/11?

This is all i'm going to say on this subject, except for, again, i'm not SURE about the Boston thing. I've just smelled a rat from the get-go, and haven't made my mind up yet.

Dude, can I test the theory. Tell us about your dad.

I'm a native New Yorker transplanted to New England. I call utter bullshit to your 50% and raise you, ah nevermind.

I'd like to state for the record that if you want to discuss theoretical false flag exercises or secret government conspiracies, I encourage you to begin a "Conspiracy Theories" thread, and discuss them there to your heart's content. I don't want underinformed speculation (such as "those reports been erased from the discourse of the events") polluting this thread.

and this is why you dah boss. I second this emotion.

[elevenism]

This is all i'm going to say on this subject.

so...how bout them cowboys?

[elevenism]

Zogby International

The polls that have received the most widespread media attention are those conducted by Zogby International.
The first one was conducted in late August 2004 on 808 randomly selected residents of New York State. It found that 49 percent ofNew York City residents believe individuals within the U.S. government "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act."

I'm just backing my shit up. No more conspiracy talk from me, per Leviathant.

[Leviathant]

The polls that have received the most widespread media attention are those conducted by Zogby International.
The first one was conducted in late August 2004 on 808 randomly selected residents of New York State. It found that 49 percent ofNew York City residents believe individuals within the U.S. government "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act."

I would be interested to see a link to the polls in question. Out of 808 residents of New York state, they were able to extrapolate that 49 percent of New York city residents believed the US Government new in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11 2001 and that they consciously failed to act? Never mind the extrapolation, I think if anything that's indicative that folks in NYC were paying attention to the 9/11 Commission, which in July 22, 2004 (about a month prior to this survey), unveiled a PDB entitled Bin Ladin Determined To Strike in US. So yes, I can see how people might think the government knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001 and that they consciously failed to act.

That has little bearing on any wider conspiracy. Let's get back to the topic at hand.

[Deepvoid]

Cenk Uygur on Alex Jones bombing conspiracy theory. Oh and there's a Free Jahar movement? Jesus ...

[Lutz]

There really is no conspiracy here.

Considering the huge public manhunt which graphically illustrated the over public surveillance and police/military force. That you either don't have or are cutting back on the cornerstones of democracy (that is social security, healthcare, education). That your government has moved into imposing austerity. The fact that the president has the right to detain individuals without charges and execute individuals without trial or conviction.

The US is already in the worse case scenario for any conspiracy theory you could offer up.

[elevenism]

yeah, i'm bowing out of this one. i come here when there are rumblings from mr trent reznor, to get the best info, rare recordings and such i have been for years (i used to be eleven11) NOT to argue about shit.

i want you guys to know i'm NOT a douchebag conspiracy nut...i JUST....DONT....KNOW.

So what do you guys think about the news that the suspects were headed to NY?

[Sutekh]

The amount of impartial social media coverage of all this kills pretty much any conspiracy theory dead.

But then, 9/11 is the single most documented event in the history of humankind and the universe, and yet you have people who say there were no planes.

[Fixer808]

9/11 is the single most documented event in the history of humankind and the universe, and yet you have people who say there were no planes.

Jesus, do some people actually think that? That's like saying that Kennedy's head "popped like a balloon because of MKULTRA, brah!"

[allegro]

Many people think the Holocaust didn't really happen. There are a lot of stupid people.

[october_midnight]

It would appear that today's idiotic youth internet culture has reached its zenith.