Steubenville trial and rape culture

[Nyx]

If that girl went out and got drunk and drove a car and killed a family of 5, is she not at least partly responsible for that?

I don't get it, I'm sorry. Yes, she would be fully responsible for driving drunk. No, she would not be responsible for getting penetrated without consent.

Listen, I agree that it's bad for people to drink themselves unconscious and that it's good to use common sense, but I get extremely irritated when the focus is shifted from the rapists' behaviour to the victim's behaviour. We're making an issue of what she did, instead of what they did, why they did it and why they're getting support from their communities and sympathies from news anchors. What those boys did to her went WAY beyond "stupid drunken teen behaviour". To make this a lesson in "this is what happens when you drink, kids, especially you, girls" is to ignore problems much more harmful and much more relevant than binge drinking. "Females should be sober at parties" is not and should not be the moral of the story.

I don't believe there will ever be a time when teenagers don't get shitfaced, and I don't believe there will ever be a time when people don't rape each other. But what can be changed, I believe, is how communities react to rape, how the society treats the victims, how it treats the rapists and what it focuses on in the aftermath. And as usual, we choose to focus on what the victim did wrong.

[icklekitty]

Yeah, while there are a lot of problems with drinking, we're talking about a girl who got gangraped whilst unconscious. This isn't like getting your money stolen if you walk around with your purse open. If you get drunk and do bad things you are culpable. This girl did NOTHING WRONG. This incident isn't going to teach her to drink less (although that may well be a consequence). It's going to teach her to live the rest of her life in constant fear of males, intimacy, relationships, love. Add to that the fact that she knew these people so thought she was safe.

And I think rape problems are far more serious than drinking problems. Especially when this is the shit your politicians are openly advocating; being a drunk is generally frowned upon while being a sexual assualter is culturally accepted as "easy/frigid" women and jock humour. Don't just shrug off other people that say that their intake of alcohol has no influence on their MORALITY (even if we consider drunk driving, it's an accident).

You have a right to get drunk and pass out. You don't have a right to molest and abuse a child who has passed out.

[orestes]

As someone was apt to point out, if a guy passes out drunk, the worst thing that'll happened are a bunch of sharpie dicks on his body. If a woman does the same thing, the least of her worries are compromising photos of her unconscious.

[jessamineny]

Listen, I agree that it's bad for people to drink themselves unconscious and that it's good to use common sense, but I get extremely irritated when the focus is shifted from the rapists' behaviour to the victim's behaviour. We're making an issue of what she did, instead of what they did, why they did it and why they're getting support from their communities and sympathies from news anchors. What those boys did to her went WAY beyond "stupid drunken teen behaviour". To make this a lesson in "this is what happens when you drink, kids, especially you, girls" is to ignore problems much more harmful and much more relevant than binge drinking. "Females should be sober at parties" is not and should not be the moral of the story.

I don't believe there will ever be a time when teenagers don't get shitfaced, and I don't believe there will ever be a time when people don't rape each other. But what can be changed, I believe, is how communities react to rape, how the society treats the victims, how it treats the rapists and what it focuses on in the aftermath. And as usual, we choose to focus on what the victim did wrong.

See, I think you're reflexively reacting to the discussion. How is allegro bringing up teen drinking a shift in discussion "from the rapists' behaviour to the victim's behaviour." It's merely another (important) aspect of the case. There is no "shifting" going on here.

And this case is a lesson in what happens when kids drink. How can it not be?? If they were sober, do you really think any of this would have happened? When kids drink, they do stupid things. And in this case, it escalated to hideous criminal things. Don't forget that they're kids. With impulse control problems, ill-formed senses of self and particular proclivity to mob behavior. All of which is magnified by alcohol (which, to make matters worse, they usually haven't formed much experience with yet).

Talking about teen drinking will not somehow invalidate other important messages. We don't have to exclusively talk about solutions that involve educating boys and changing how society treats rape victims.

As someone was apt to point out, if a guy passes out drunk, the worst thing that'll happened are a bunch of sharpie dicks on his body. If a woman does the same thing, the least of her worries are compromising photos of her unconscious.

Absolutely. And if this is reality, which it unfortunately is, don't we have an obligation to teach young girls to be careful when drinking in social situations?

[icklekitty]

We have an obligation to teach young boys not to be sexist, entitled, cunts.

[jessamineny]

JFS. WHY does it have to be an either/or situation?

[kdrcraig]

http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs...opstories.html

Not sure if this has been brought up yet but now two girls have been arrested for threatening the rape victim online.

[icklekitty]

JFS. WHY does it have to be an either/or situation?

...because the perpetrators of crimes should be punished and not the victims?

[allegro]

Listen, I agree that it's bad for people to drink themselves unconscious

Teens - boys and girls - in this country should not be drinking because they don't seem to have a governor or moderation. That's not blaming the victim, that's not shifting the blame, it's an additional truth. Yes we need people to understand that this is wrong, that has always been the case. But since this stuff happens every week on college campuses, we need to expand the dialog and see what can be done and why drunk girls are apparently viewed as "fair game." Why is that? How do we change it?

This includes empowering girls and educating them, not telling them that they'll always be helpless victims so there's nothing they can do while we wait for boys to know how to do the right thing?

Some women are online discussing this topic and saying they're going to start carrying guns.

[jessamineny]

As someone was apt to point out, if a guy passes out drunk, the worst thing that'll happened are a bunch of sharpie dicks on his body. If a woman does the same thing, the least of her worries are compromising photos of her unconscious.

Absolutely. And if this is reality, which it unfortunately is, don't we have an obligation to teach young girls to be careful when drinking in social situations?

We have an obligation to teach young boys not to be sexist, entitled, cunts.

JFS. WHY does it have to be an either/or situation?

...because the perpetrators of crimes should be punished and not the victims?

Where in anything I said was that punishing a victim? It's about empowering girls to protect themselves.

Reality is fucking reality. Orestes laid it out very plainly. If we stubbornly cling to the belief that rape shouldn't happen, and women shouldn't have to change their behaviors because it's patently unjust, we only end up doing women a disservice. We have to give young girls and women tools to thrive in reality, not the reality we wish existed.

[allegro]

http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs...opstories.html

Not sure if this has been brought up yet but now two girls have been arrested for threatening the rape victim online.

Ugh jeez. This reminds me of those "Team Breezy" chicks who follow Chris Brown around and send out Twitter threats to anybody who mentions that he beat the shit out of Rihanna.

[Sutekh]

It's very simple!

We are loathe to exonerate rapists in any way, but nonetheless cannot neglect our duty to prepare young girls for the world.

The way of striking this balance is ;

You commit to educating young girls about drinking responsibly and keeping their wits about them.

If a rape happens, the emphasis shifts entirely to blaming the rapist. It is now too late to lecture the victim. Continue educating young girls about the dangers they face. But culturally, we NEED to start treating rape & rapists for what they are, as a society our disdain is simply not strong enough, culturally or in terms of legislation and punishment (I speak as a resident of the UK, but about the western world generally).

Culturally an awful lot of people don't think it is that big a deal. They know it's a big deal and they can sort of empathise, but in their heart of hearts they don't think it's that bad. These rape apologists reinforce the culture that enables the rapist & denies the victims proper justice.

Whether this sense of priority is correct all depends on whether you think young girls' tendency to cut loose and party is a more grave issue than a tacitly rape-permissive culture

[allegro]

^^ @Sutekh , thank you, good post. Yes, I guess even females evidently need to be taught that this is in fact a big deal and it's bad.

(This includes being physically and emotionally abused by boyfriends, which is reported to be a hidden and accepted epidemic among kids and teens.)

[orestes]

A must read
http://www.dailylife.com.au/all-abou...318-2gaxy.html

[jessamineny]

Why can't there be multiple lessons?

[icklekitty]

Where in anything I said was that punishing a victim? It's about empowering girls to protect themselves.

Reality is fucking reality. Orestes laid it out very plainly. If we stubbornly cling to the belief that rape shouldn't happen, and women shouldn't have to change their behaviors because it's patently unjust, we only end up doing women a disservice. We have to give young girls and women tools to thrive in reality, not the reality we wish existed.

You're saying that we need to teach the victims to behave differently. That's punishing them. If you want to do something "in this reality", teach the perpetrators to be good, not the victims to fear.

Here are some other examples along the same line "in this reality"

- teach gay people not to be too affectionate in public, because it might offend someone and they could get attacked
- teach black people to watch where they go outside, because if they're found near the scene of a crime, they're going to be falsely accused.
- teach Muslim people not to "look too Arabic" at the airport, because people might think they're terrorists and they could get detained


I don't see that as empowering in the slightest. I see it as promoting fear. It supports the argument that if you do see a drunk girl she must be fair game, because if she didn't want it, she wouldn't have drunk so much.

Yes, in this reality, women have to be vigilant. But that's a shit reality and one we should fight to change. It's the same fight that set black people free of their (physical) chains, and the same fight that's trying to give gay people a safe and happy existence. A woman shouldn't have to stay sober to avoid rape. Why should people have to run around in fear just so a few fucktards don't get the opportunity. It's letting them win.


Empowering would be to give them the freedom to live their lives the way they choose without falling into harm. Orestes was pointing out that one group of people get a freedom/privilege that another doesn't.

Whether this sense of priority is correct all depends on whether you think young girls' tendency to cut loose and party is a more grave issue than a tacitly rape-permissive culture

THIS. YES.

Why can't there be multiple lessons?

None of us on this side of the argument are saying that there isn't a drinking problem - I certainly wasn't if you look back. But we were all discussing a rape trial and someone brought up a huge spiel on the evils of teen drinking. A sense of priority is in order.

[jessamineny]

And if you look back at everything I have said, I never said girls should stay sober. I said we should teach girls to be careful when drinking in social situations. Huge difference.

Here are some other examples along the same line "in this reality"

- teach gay people not to be too affectionate in public, because it might offend someone and they could get attacked
- teach black people to watch where they go outside, because if they're found near the scene of a crime, they're going to be falsely accused.
- teach Muslim people not to "look too Arabic" at the airport, because people might think they're terrorists and they could get detained

Do you really equate these with "Don't drink until you are mentally and/or physically unable to care for yourself?" For reals?

I don't see that as empowering in the slightest. I see it as promoting fear. It supports the argument that if you do see a drunk girl she must be fair game, because if she didn't want it, she wouldn't have drunk so much.

I guess I see the fearful response as the one that promotes men and boys as sexist, entitled cunts. Girls shouldn't be taught to be afraid of men and boys in general. I think it's completely rational, however, to teach them that it's dangerous to drink until they're unable to care for themselves.

Yes, in this reality, women have to be vigilant. But that's a shit reality and one we should fight to change.

I'm all for fighting to change the status quo. But in the meantime, we have to live within the shit reality that's dealt us.

[allegro]

A must read
http://www.dailylife.com.au/all-abou...318-2gaxy.html

Yes it is.

But the act of rape and its consequences isn’t a morality tale. We don’t trip over it in the street or accidentally spill it on someone’s clothes. Bystanders aren’t passive participants entitled to stand around wondering what’s going on, like walking into the wrong cinema halfway through a film and being slightly baffled by the drama unfolding before them. Rape is a deliberate act of violation and disregard that offers no silver lining lessons for anyone.

The Steubenville case has the potential to significantly influence how America (and perhaps the world) addresses rape culture and its attitudes towards offenders. The time for shrugged shoulders and platitudes about how boys behave when they get together is over. It’s perhaps unfortunate for Mays and Richmond that their particular crime became the poster case for a tougher approach to casual rapists, but it will hopefully set a precedent when dealing with similar violations of the law whose most tragic personal reflection is that they got caught. If you rape someone, you’re not making a mistake. You’re breaking the law. You don’t get to go home at the end of it and chalk it up to one of life’s quirky moments of truth.

[Magtig]

You know, jessamineny mentioned that this whole line about 'teach women not to drink' is practical although it can feel an awful lot like blaming the victim, and even though it makes sense to teach people to be vigilant and not put themselves in vulnerable situations and I better understand where allegro's coming from now, it still feels exactly like blaming the victim. I'm very pro women learning self defense and being aware of their surroundings, but I also understand that I'm not their dad.

This entire conversation started when I posted the CNN video where the anchors sympathized with the rapists. If I recall correctly, allegro immediately launched into this entire line of reasoning about teaching young women not to drink. As I've said before, I do agree with the points she's making about reforming our cultural problem with binge drinking, and I recognize that this issue puts women at an increased risk of rape. However, I haven't been able to track down information that rape in teens has increased as an overall statistical trend since the introduction of alcoholic beverages aimed at women. I have tracked down information that rape in general has been on a slow and steady decline in the US for a number of years, despite it still being a huge problem, and also despite the fact that the US has a higher statistical rape rate than most European countries. I just haven't seen a strong connection with hard evidence, even though I agree that it makes sense given the connection that rape has to alcohol.

The point I want to make is this: when a conversation starts about rape culture and feminists (or anyone else) immediately start saying that women should be taught to not drink (which is absolutely punitive in nature) it doesn't really matter how correct they are. The timing and introduction of these points about alcohol create a correlation that matters. In a similar fashion the Bush administration convinced the US that Iraq had a connection to Al Qaeda simply by mentioning two true talking points next to each other over and over until the totally false connection between the two formed in minds of the people; it created a false cause. The same principle is at work here no matter how well intentioned.

[allegro]

The point I want to make is this: when a conversation starts about rape culture and feminists (or anyone else) immediately start saying that women should be taught to not drink (which is absolutely punitive in nature) it doesn't really matter how correct they are.

I don't think I "immediately* jumped to a "girls shouldn't drink" conclusion in general; I actually said that *all teens* shouldn't drink. And of course, as Suketh said, this should only be discussed BEFORE a sexual assault or date assault happens and not after because after is too late and worthless to the victim (and/or to the perpetrators).

The thing that really really really bothers me about this particular case, maybe because I'm being motherly and feel some need to mother that girl, is from a general protective "health" standpoint, and how she was carted from party to party, completely unconscious and more and more naked as those boys removed more and more clothes without her knowledge, and NOBODY did ONE GOD DAMNED THING -- males or females -- to help her. POSSIBLY 50 TEENS, MALE AND FEMALE, AT DIFFERENT PARTIES SAW THIS GIRL COMPLETELY UNCONSCIOUS AND BEING CARTED AROUND FROM CAR TO PARTY TO CAR TO PARTY AND NOBODY TRIED TO HELP HER? Wasn't anybody concerned about her safety? That she may have alcohol poisoning? THAT SHE COULD DIE?? Didn't anybody wonder if somebody may have slipped her a Roofie? ALL those people seeing and posting pics of an unconscious girl and the best they can do is call her a "whore" and "raped" but none - girls or boys - could call authorities or a hospital or 911 or anything? Rape culture is one thing, and it's terrible, but she was UNCONSCIOUS. What if she DIED? Then we'd have a MURDER case, too, and those kids would be standing around scratching their heads, going "um, well, we were drunk." Didn't ANY of those kids have the compassion to help a girl who could have DIED? DON'T ANY OF THEM HAVE SISTERS OR MOTHERS??? WHERE WERE ANY GOD DAMNED PARENTS DURING THIS BULLSHIT? NO parents home at all while they're taking a half-or-increasingly-naked and UNCONSCIOUS 16-yr-old from party to party?

THIS IS ALL JUST FUCKING NUTS.



^^^^ THEY'RE SAYING THAT SHE IS DEAD!!!!

I CAN'T IMAGINE BEING A TEEN AT A PARTY AND NOT SAYING, "WHOA, THAT GIRL IS REALLY DRUNK, GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM HER YOU MORONS" AND PICKING UP THE PHONE AND CALLING 911 FOR CHRIST SAKE!

As to the female CNN anchor "sympathizing with the rapist," I saw it more like her making a (failed) attempt to warn boys that if you do this, too, you will ruin your life (because you will be a registered sex offender for the rest of your life). I guess it can be viewed from different angles but I didn't get the same knee-jerk "she's feeling sorry for those boys" vibe as others. She's a dumb anchor, she fucked up. Maybe I'm old and naive and, well, I don't take journalists that seriously.

THIS IS EXCELLENT. The social media aspect of this, with ALL THOSE WITNESSES WHO WEREN'T EVEN THERE BUT SAW IT VIA TWITTER AND FACEBOOK, also did NOTHING.

[Magtig]

POSSIBLY 50 TEENS, MALE AND FEMALE, AT DIFFERENT PARTIES SAW THIS GIRL COMPLETELY UNCONSCIOUS AND BEING CARTED AROUND FROM CAR TO PARTY TO CAR TO PARTY AND NOBODY TRIED TO HELP HER? Wasn't anybody concerned about her safety? That she may have alcohol poisoning? THAT SHE COULD DIE?? Didn't anybody wonder if somebody may have slipped her a Roofie? ALL those people seeing and posting pics of an unconscious girl and the best they can do is call her a "whore" and "raped" but none - girls or boys - could call authorities or a hospital or 911 or anything?

Yeah, that's a problem that scientists have done alarming studies on for some time now (see: Milgram experiment). The only way out of it is to think (awareness) our way out, apparently. It's one of those awful and inescapable parts of human nature that we've inherited from millions of years of evolution.

---

Shifting gears back to rape culture, my friend said something recently that made me think, "Fuck yeah! Let's try putting the guys on the spot for a change."

• Jeff Frost Speaking of Hey!Zeus, isn't it interesting that a crowd that typically has a hardline stance on taking responsibility for your own actions always seems to find ways to blame rape victims instead of rapists?
• Friend: Yep...
  
  "What was she wearing?"
  
  "Where was her boyfriend?"
  
  "Has she 'cried rape' before?"
  
  "Is she a virgin?"
  
  "Was she drinking?"
  
  "Was she being flirtatious?"
  
  "Was she behaving provocatively?"
  
  ....
  
  WHAT THE GODDAMNED FUCK!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?
  
  How about this:
  
  "What makes you think you have the right to force yourself on another human being and shove your filthy cock into them?????!!!!????"
  
  Why the FUCK don't we ask THAT question for a change?????

[Jinsai]

The thing is... all teens drink. I can't speak for anyone else in here, but when I was a teenager, there was always drinking at parties. It's a social institution.

Maybe I went to different parties or hung out with different groups of people, but the events here are such a far cry from anything I've ever seen it's making me feel a little nuts that we're discussing it as an issue even vaguely related to irresponsible drinking.

[allegro]

Yeah, that's a problem that scientists have done alarming studies on for some time now

That's no excuse.

@Jinsai : I was totally serious about being a teen in the 70s: The drinking age in Michigan was 18 but we teens didn't drink much or none at all (I very rarely drank, maybe I had a glass of Reunite wine twice in my teens?) I didn't know anybody who drank, either, but we smoked a LOT of pot. But not booze, we knew kids who drank beer sometimes but they nursed one Miller GIQ for hours. This "all teens drink" stuff is completely foreign to me because I didn't drink and didn't see it happen, I've never seen a passed-out person EVER actually.

edit: note that I am not condoning pot usage, I'm just saying we didn't drink.

[Jinsai]

Oh come on now. There was drinking, you can't fool me. I've seen Dazed and Confused, I know what's up.

Still, I don't think responding to this story by addressing the issue of teen drinking (especially not with the suggestion that we fix the issue by legalizing pot) is going to accomplish much. Teens will still drink, and they'll drink even more if adults tell them not to drink so much. And yes, teens today are fucking stupid. They've apparently invented something called butt-chuggging.

Stupidity isn't the issue for me here though, it's morality, and when some jocks rape a passed out girl, the only response to that should be "fuck you, we're trying you as an adult you sack of shit, rot in jail." Not "oh, they had such promising futures, but now they have to go to juvie for a whole year." We've somehow become so addicted to drama that our news anchors project automatic sympathy for some crying rapist. Meanwhile, twitter blows up and some truly disgusting people have been provoked to harass the rape victim?

[allegro]

Oh come on now. There was drinking, you can't fool me. I've seen Dazed and Confused, I know what's up.

That was in Texas. And they're drinking beer. NOT vodka.

Stupidity isn't the issue for me here though, it's morality

My stupidity comments were aimed only at all those kids who did absolutely nothing to help. Those who did nothing should be charged with criminal charges, as well.

Still, I don't think responding to this story by addressing the issue of teen drinking

I was not and am not "responding to this story" alone. I'm talking about two distinctly different topics. I think I've made that clear about 900 times but it appears that nobody wants to discuss that in the GENERAL HEADLINES thread. Sorry.

[Leviathant]

The thing is... all teens drink. I can't speak for anyone else in here, but when I was a teenager, there was always drinking at parties. It's a social institution.

I'm here to point out that actually, not all teens drink. I actually don't think I was properly drunk until I was 23. And that has nothing to do with religion, my dad's a fan of beer but not an alcoholic. I just... chose not to drink. I'd still hang out at parties where people drank, I'd meet up with friends at the bar, but I'd just have water.

That's not to say there isn't an insanely pervasive alcoholic culture in this country (and many others). It's seriously insane how fucking fired up people get about their booze, and how tolerant everyone is of all the really terrible side effects, both physical and cultural... but that's another discussion.

Maybe I went to different parties or hung out with different groups of people, but the events here are such a far cry from anything I've ever seen it's making me feel a little nuts that we're discussing it as an issue even vaguely related to irresponsible drinking.

Agreed - you not might infer if from my previous paragraph, but I actually would happily embrace alcohol prohibition. I don't know that I've ever typed that out on the internet because it is a position that, in this country, is easily less acceptable than something as totally nutball as young earth kookiness. But for as much as I think we'd be better off sober, that has no bearing on what's going on here. That's a small sliver in a greater, rotten cultural pie.

[DigitalChaos]

Does anyone really think these guys weren't massive douchebags when sober too?

Also, add another vote for "didn't drink until early 20's." Granted, my reasoning was probably related to my heavy contempt for tribalism. I knew only one other person in my school that didn't drink.

[jessamineny]

You know, jessamineny mentioned that this whole line about 'teach women not to drink' is practical although it can feel an awful lot like blaming the victim...

I went back and re-read my posts, just to make sure, but I never ever said this.

[Magtig]

This is part of what I was reacting to:

It's just so difficult because continually women aren't believed, are blamed, are shamed, are attacked for "ruining lives"... so any suggestion that we acknowledge the existence of personal responsibility can reflexively feel like just more of the same.

Maybe the language was slightly hyperbolic and should have been worded "drink responsibly" instead of "not drink." I don't think it changes much though.

[Deepvoid]

If you drink too much and you consent to a sexual relation and then you regret it afterwards, you should be educated on how to drink responsibly. Yes you can blame the alcohol in that case.

With that being said, if you're too drunk and someone rape you, you should not be lectured in regard to you drinking in any way, shape or form.

The dudes are lucky to be minors because they will only spend time in juve.
They should've been treated as adults, sentenced as adults.