Random NIN Thoughts

[Wolfkiller]

It can be two things at once... a song that fits into the story of the album AND a parody/commentary on gangsta rap. Sorry if I just blew anyone's mind with that.

[Microwave Jellyfish]

Sorry if I just blew anyone's mind with that.

So much blood for such a tiny little hole

[Dr Channard]

Well, as far as I'm concerned I would have been Running to get it, Find My Way to the last surviving record store, only to find out I already owned Everything on it except for the shoved In Two unreleased tracks, which I don't even really like.

All I'm saying is, I'm pretty happy with the way things panned out.

And with that one…
　

[Wolfkiller]

Everything's blu in this world. Except Closure and And All That Could Have Been.

[kattastrophic]

Everything's blu in this world. Except Closure and And All That Could Have Been.

And Tension 2013.

[Dr Channard]

Another exception, the smile is red, and its eyes are black.

[kattastrophic]

another exception, the smile is red, and its eyes are black.

(black black black black black black black black black)

[Wolfkiller]

(black black black black black black black black black)

NUMBER OOOONE!

I can't believe my two favorite bands toured togther. Fuck dinosaurs, I know my first stop when time travel gets figured out.

[Hazekiah]

you hadn't said that already. you made a little rant that sounded kind of homophobic and ridiculous, which is why i facepalmed it. also, people take facepalming WAY too seriously.
@GibbonBlack stated that the song seemed to be more about trent's celebrity status and i agreed with that...why is that confusing?

It was only confusing insofar as they were basically saying the same thing you facepalmed when I said it; the imagery of "limp dicks" conjured by the song "Getting Smaller" was a statement on his "inefficacy/uselessness" at the time of With Teeth, which he was deliberately alluding to as a form of impotency. The "rant" I went on surrounding that point was simply meant to illustrate the pattern of expression which is his m.o. for the sake of establishing his intent with respect to the "limp dicks" imagery.

And I don't take facepalming that seriously, fwiw...at least not as seriously as the people who actually pay money to enable the feature. I just thought it was worth asking about given the circumstances. Also, LOL at the idea of me sounding homophobic, ffs. I'd think being the guy in pigtails and make-up who's a massive fan of NIN and Marilyn Manson would go a LONG way towards establishing my lack of discomfort with the idea of non-hetero sexuality, lol. I mean, that's not exactly the kind of stuff most homophobes would gravitate towards, right?

Personally, I think "Fixed" was just chosen because it's a word associated with "Broken." I think the other meanings of fixed might have been intentional, but more in a humorous pun sort of way.

Well, yeah...obviously?

I was hardly suggesting that Reznor actually had himself castrated, lol.

Aside from the other points that were already mentioned, I have also wondered if it was also set up to look like an intentional reference or response to Me And A Gun by Tori Amos on her album Little Earthquakes. What you've said reminded me of their conspiracy, as it was called. I'm not sure if it's still going on, but it seemed to be very much alive from the early 1990s to the mid 2000s.

Yeah, I think it's fair to say that "Big Man with a Gun" is practically a companion piece to "Me and a Gun."

In fact, Reznor even went out of his way to mention in several interviews that he actually played the song for her in person to see how she felt about him possibly including it on the album. Oh, to be a fly on the wall for THAT conversation. Eek.

Needless to say, however, she agreed that it should be included.

Speaking of which, I can't say I recall ever having noticed any re-recorded, new performances on the 2004 remasterings of this song.

Could anyone be more specific about what exactly was re-recorded? I'd be curious to hear that.

[GulDukat]

Aside from the other points that were already mentioned, I have also wondered if it was also set up to look like an intentional reference or response to Me And A Gun by Tori Amos on her album Little Earthquakes. What you've said reminded me of their conspiracy, as it was called. I'm not sure if it's still going on, but it seemed to be very much alive from the early 1990s to the mid 2000s.

@Charmingly Miserable @RhettButler - I'd definitely be interested in what either of you might have to say about it as well.

On the other hand, I could also still see that as a satirical parody of hip hop, as well as a parody of people acting like tough guy rappers and gangsters, but that's just me. I'd even go out on a limb and venture to say that if it was intended to be a parody of such on any kind of level, it's probably somewhat akin to say, 50 Cent's Wanksta in some ways. Aside from that, I don't know what else to say, because I still found what Trent said about Big Man With A Gun to be very believable.


I could actually see that in some ways, even though that sort of thing was already visually accomplished on the Broken movie. I also thought that Big Man With A Gun could've also inspired the way the final version of Get Your Gunn (At least in a minor way.) came to be, even though most of the inspiration from The Downward Spiral ended up on Smells Like Children and Antichrist Superstar. But yes, in that era, I wouldn't put it past Nine Inch Nails and Marilyn Manson influencing and inspiring each other with ideas being bounced around from both camps as a result of their collaboration and friendship.


I just loved the way you put that, as this is exactly what I had in mind, not only with Big Man With A Gun, but the entire Broken movie as well. Depending on who you are, if your brain has ever functioned like that whenever you're very angry, it's actually very relatable and understandable. You've also summed it up so much better than I ever could have, which is great, because I had a very hard time trying to describe the Broken movie in that kind of way.

And not to mention, I can also still see how those types of songs also set the perfect mood for destroying instruments and equipment on stage with or without them messing up. It's also still one of my favorite reasons for watching Closure.

I also saw Big Man With A Gun as the final explosion before slowing down for A Warm Place and then facing further demise and lows afterwards. I have also read descriptions of The Downward Spiral having some of the songs are of the character trying to get higher and higher in songs like Closer and Ruiner only to go lower and lower in songs like A Warm Place and Eraser as the character gets more vulnerable and suicidal after those bursts of aggression and perceived invincibility and power, with Hurt being the bottom the downward spiral as well as the final blow.

Sorry for the late reply. I don't really think the songs are related. Tori's song is about being raped, while Trent's song is about machismo posturing. The titles are similar, but I don't think Trent's was in response to Tori, but who knows?

[m15a]

Well, yeah...obviously?

I was hardly suggesting that Reznor actually had himself castrated, lol.

What is obvious to you? And what were you suggesting?

[kattastrophic]

Sorry for the late reply. I don't really think the songs are related. Tori's song is about being raped, while Trent's song is about machismo posturing. The titles are similar, but I don't think Trent's was in response to Tori, but who knows?

Her song was about being raped. His can be interpreted to be about raping another.
So I personally believe it was, but to each their own.

[sheepdean]

Her song was about being raped. His can be interpreted to be about raping another.
So I personally believe it was, but to each their own.

I would heavily dislike Trent, or at least Trent of that era, if that were the case, as hers is about a true story and not something to have a "response" to.

[kattastrophic]

I would heavily dislike Trent, or at least Trent of that era, if that were the case, as hers is about a true story and not something to have a "response" to.

It may have been why he supposedly played it for her to check for her approval.
But...

[sheepdean]

It may have been why he supposedly played it for her to check for her approval.
But...

That also would remove it from the album's concept (unless she's part of it) and, youknow, I very much doubt she would have been OK with him doing that. Remember Just Do It was pulled for being too dark, a song about raping one of his close friends (or a visceral conceptual response to that) being left on is very unlikely.

[Hazekiah]

Well, he asked her for her okay and he got it. That's what he said at the time, at least.

And considering what he's also said about the album being based on his own life experiences with additional elements of fantasy, I don't really see how "Big Man with a Gun" being, in part, a rape-fantasy which was possibly inspired by the song a very close friend of his wrote about her own real life experience with the subject would in any way "remove it from the album's concept."

And it is UNQUESTIONABLY not just a parody of gangsta-rap, btw.

From the man himself:

SPIN: Let me ask you about Downward Spiral's "Big Man With A Gun." I'm sure you've heard the story of C. Delores Tucker going to the Time/Warner people and saying 'Could you read these lyrics out loud?" And they refused. They are crude lyrics.

TRENT REZNOR: Absolutely. The record was nearing completion. I had written those lyrics pretty quickly and I didn't know if I was going to use them or not. To me, Downward Spiral builds to a certain degree of madness, then it changes. That would be the last stage of delirium. So the original point of "Big Man With A Gun" was madness. But it was also making fun of the whole misogynistic gangsta-rap bulls**t.

It's about the peak of madness and delirium clearly described within the song itself.

And it's ALSO a satire of gangsta-rap.

Great interview, btw! Well worth reading in full:

http://www.theninhotline.net/archive...cle.php?id=625

What is obvious to you? And what were you suggesting?

I was suggesting what I'd been suggesting on this point all along, which is in agreement with your own post, that Fixed was chosen as a title due to its word association with Broken, and that it was intentionally meant as a pun regarding the meaning of the word "fixed," as in neutered, playing off of the implications of the use of the word "broken" in "Gave Up" in relation to its imagery of impotence.

[m15a]

I would heavily dislike Trent, or at least Trent of that era, if that were the case, as hers is about a true story and not something to have a "response" to.

I don't know exactly how people are interpreting the track as a response, but "response" can mean a lot of things. Response can be a synonym to reaction, and a lot of fictional narrative art works are reactions to real specific events. It seems like you're interpreting "response" more narrowly, and because of that, you might be arguing against something people aren't claiming.

[kattastrophic]

That also would remove it from the album's concept (unless she's part of it) and, youknow, I very much doubt she would have been OK with him doing that. Remember Just Do It was pulled for being too dark, a song about raping one of his close friends (or a visceral conceptual response to that) being left on is very unlikely.

To be fair, it was more than likely just a play on the title rather than about raping her, specifically.

[m15a]

I was suggesting what I'd been suggesting on this point all along, which is in agreement with your own post, that Fixed was chosen as a title due to its word association with Broken, and that it was intentionally meant as a pun regarding the meaning of the word "fixed," as in neutered, playing off of the implications of the use of the word "broken" in "Gave Up" in relation to its imagery of impotence.

Oh, okay. I wasn't responding to your post specifically anyway, instead responding to the discussion as a whole, but I don't think that the title was chosen to reference the "imagery of impotence" or any other metaphor - that was what I was saying in my post. I think either it was solely chosen because it's a word associated with Broken or it was chosen because of that and also because Trent thought the other meanings of fixed were humorous.

[botley]

imagery of impotence.

This is not a thing. There is no "imagery of impotence" to critique when impotence itself is already being used as a metaphor. If you take a metaphor, and combine it with other metaphorical imagery, you are mixing metaphors. Reznor is not a lazy writer, his metaphors can be crude but he does not as a rule combine layers of allusion in this obtuse way. Your inference is kind of like that photo of the guy with dollar bills strapped to his eyeglasses, but instead it's limp dicks.

[allegro]

And considering what he's also said about the album being based on his own life experiences with additional elements of fantasy, I don't really see how "Big Man with a Gun" being, in part, a rape-fantasy which was possibly inspired by the song a very close friend of his wrote about her own real life experience with the subject would in any way "remove it from the album's concept."

From the man himself:

"TRENT REZNOR: Absolutely. The record was nearing completion. I had written those lyrics pretty quickly and I didn't know if I was going to use them or not. To me, Downward Spiral builds to a certain degree of madness, then it changes. That would be the last stage of delirium. So the original point of "Big Man With A Gun" was madness. But it was also making fun of the whole misogynistic gangsta-rap bulls**t."

Reznor has said, in shitloads of interviews, that TDS is a concept album and an exploration of power. Sex and power and one fictitious character's goal in achieving ultimate (God-like) power. BMWAG is the male's ultimate use of power. His dick and his gun (both equal tools of power) are used in tandem to achieve control and power. Gansta rap exhibits this same misogynist power. Then the protagonist eventually meets the Reptile, then he tries to kill himself when he realizes he's a total asshole.

Here is a pretty good interpretation: http://www.4degreez.com/nailz/ninter...ownspiral.html

Re Broken: Reznor has said, in multiple interviews, that "Broken" was written after the breakup of a really shitty relationship, which is obvious in the lyrics of the album. It's the ultimate angry breakup album. "Fixed" means, obviously, that he's over it.

[Hazekiah]

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING POST
CONTAINS NSFW MATERIAL

But not till the very bottom!

Okay, moving on...

This is not a thing. There is no "imagery of impotence" to critique when impotence itself is already being used as a metaphor. If you take a metaphor, and combine it with other metaphorical imagery, you are mixing metaphors. Reznor is not a lazy writer, his metaphors can be crude but he does not as a rule combine layers of allusion in this obtuse way. Your inference is kind of like that photo of the guy with dollar bills strapped to his eyeglasses, but instead it's limp dicks.

Well, firstly, thanks for editing that for clarity because I didn't know wtf you were trying to say at first, lol.

Likewise, I'm unfamiliar with the photo you're describing but I think I get the point anyway. You're saying I just want to see limp dicks?

Haha, yeah...not really.

And it's the very metaphor of impotence which CONJURES the imagery of impotence in the first place! How exactly is that "taking a metaphor and combining it with OTHER metaphorical imagery" or a "mixed metaphor." The metaphor IS the imagery and the imagery IS the metaphor.

o_O

Reznor has said, in shitloads of interviews, that TDS is a concept album and an exploration of power. Sex and power and one fictitious character's goal in achieving ultimate (God-like) power. BMWAG is the male's ultimate use of power. His dick and his gun (both equal tools of power) are used in tandem to achieve control and power. Gansta rap exhibits this same misogynist power. Then the protagonist eventually meets the Reptile, then he tries to kill himself when he realizes he's a total asshole.

Here is a pretty good interpretation: http://www.4degreez.com/nailz/ninter...ownspiral.html

Re Broken: Reznor has said, in multiple interviews, that "Broken" was written after the breakup of a really shitty relationship, which is obvious in the lyrics of the album. It's the ultimate angry breakup album. "Fixed" means, obviously, that he's over it.

Oh, good...we've read lots of the same interviews!

Now perhaps you'll recall that there was also this OTHER important "breakup" surrounding the creation of Broken. You know, the whole Trent Reznor vs. TVT thing?

Also kind of a big deal and very much a focus of the e.p., lol.

Please tell me I'm NOT alone in interpreting Broken in general and "Happiness in Slavery" in particular as Reznor's critique of his treatment within the music industry.

As Reznor himself illustrated in the interview I linked to above, art can deal with multiple subjects on multiple levels at the same time.

That's pretty much what I'm getting at here.

Oh, okay. I wasn't responding to your post specifically anyway, instead responding to the discussion as a whole, but I don't think that the title was chosen to reference the "imagery of impotence" or any other metaphor - that was what I was saying in my post. I think either it was solely chosen because it's a word associated with Broken or it was chosen because of that and also because Trent thought the other meanings of fixed were humorous.

Well, that's fine. But I really don't see how anyone's missing my point about the title or disagreeing with it by now.

I'll try to be exceedingly clear.

Nine Inch Nails has featured near-constant phallic imagery throughout its career.

"Gave Up" makes it obvious that "broken" refers to a broken penis, if you will. Therefore, "fixed" would refer to a fixed penis, as in one which has been neutered.

Is it also simply a word association playing against the title of Broken? Sure.

But looking at the Broken e.p. more closely, one finds the only OTHER use of the word "broken" is in "Happiness in Slavery," which features perhaps the most penis shots of any major label music video. He even goes out of his way to OVEREMPHASISE the word "penis" in "happiness" at the end of the song.

Getting back to the start of all this, "Getting Smaller" later discussed his growing insecurities about his increasing obscurity and impotence within the music industry at the time in terms of, well...impotence. Hence, the title.

Which makes perfect sense in relation to the statement behind Broken, I'd add.

Broken was largely fueled by his disillusionment regarding the music industry, his unsatisfactory dealings with TVT, and the feeling of having been "slave-traded" to Interscope (his words, not mine) and the prospect of his being robbed of his self-expression as Nine Inch Nails, much the same way "Getting Smaller" deals with his impotence within the same industry years later.

And what was he feeling in the midst of Broken and Fixed?

HAP-PENIS

[allegro]

Firstly, Reznor has said that "Broken" was about the breakup with TVT but also about the breakup of a live-in relationship with a girlfriend. You can't interpret an entire album by one song (HiS). Secondly, I don't get how "Gave Up" is about a broken dick and I have a BA in English Lit.

HE is Broken. All of him. He has given up. His lips may promise but his heart his a whore. This isn't meant to last, this is for right now

Fresh blood through tired skin
new sweat to drown me in

[Hazekiah]

I'm not debating the part about the breakup of his personal relationship.

I'm saying that his statements dealing with that subject coexist alongside his statements about his breakup with TVT, insofar as Broken is concerned. "Wish," for instance, could just as easily be interpreted as a song about his girlfriend betraying his trust as it could be his record label doing the same.

Same goes for "Last." Same goes for "Gave Up." Same goes for "Physical (You're So)." Same goes for "Suck."

Hell, same goes for "Help Me I am in Hell" and "Pinion," ffs!

Sooo...what was that about interpreting "an entire album by ONE song" again???

And, no offense to your schooling (good for you!), but if you have a B.A. in English Literature and still can't see how lyrics like "all covered with hope and Vaseline, still cannot fix this broken machine, watching the hole, it used to mine" just MIGHT be an allusion to impotence, literally OR metaphorically, then, I mean, I don't know wtf to say, lol.

Really?!?

o_O

[allegro]

YOU said it was just about one thing, not me. Go re-read your own thesis.

And hope and Vaseline doesn't make the whole song and album about impotence for Christ sake.

Your thesis said that Broken is about (sexual) impotence and Fixed is about being neutered.

Or something.

Reznor has stated in interviews that HiS was about TVT, and that Broken was about both TVT and the shitty g/f thing. And he's just whiney. We didn't exactly expect a Barney record.

[Hazekiah]

Holy fuck's sake.

This whole thing started because someone confessed that "Getting Smaller" made them think of limp dicks, lol. A thesis which I've supported.

I then went on, laboriously, tediously, and I hope HILARIOUSLY clarifying the point that Reznor has employed phallic imagery at great length (so to speak, w00t) since the very beginning of his career as Nine Inch Nails and has likewise used the metaphor and imagery of impotence to convey his feelings about his place within the music industry.

I'm not saying that "hope and Vaseline," etc. makes "the whole song about impotence."

Nor am I claiming that Broken is about sexual impotence or that Fixed is about being neutered.

What you're misunderstanding there somehow (???) is my point that Reznor's lyrics alluding to impotence in "Gave Up" metaphorically reinforce and support his statement about his place in the music industry vis-à-vis his statement on precisely that subject in the song immediately preceding it. And, yeah, the whole album could be interpreted that way, which I think is appropriate. He went through two ENORMOUS "breakups" in his life simultaneously and BOTH bled into EACH song. That's not too hard to understand, right?

And, once again, entitling the companion remix e.p. as Fixed was most likely meant as a clever word association/pun which expanded upon the broken/impotence theme of Broken. I guess you could say that Fixed is "about being neutered" but you're losing a LOT of nuance from an already fairly straightforward message in doing so, and that's not what I was saying anyway.

Double-meanings, at the LEAST.

I'm just saying that the impotence/neutering vs. record-labels/the-music-industry thing is DEFINITELY the core of it.

Throw in a giant FUCK YOU to his ex-gf if you like, but I was HARDLY saying that "it was just about one thing," lol.

(Puns intended!)

[Ryan]

If only Trent read this page from top to bottom... I'd kill to see the expression on his face.

[BenAkenobi]

So, @Hazekiah , do you think "fixed" means "repaired and not broken anymore" or "remaining stationary and unchanged" (2 contrary meanings)?

[botley]

And it's the very metaphor of impotence which CONJURES the imagery of impotence in the first place! How exactly is that "taking a metaphor and combining it with OTHER metaphorical imagery" or a "mixed metaphor." The metaphor IS the imagery and the imagery IS the metaphor.

I get what you're saying here, but that's not the way Reznor employs those things. He will say "I've got a big gun" and it's surely a metaphor, as clear as the dick on my face. You see how I subtly mixed metaphors, there?

(By the way, while the line "got me a big old dick" is parodic, I don't think much of the rest of that song is.)

He will, in many separate cases, also use classic imagery like "ocean pulls me close and whispers in my ear" in his lyrics. But it's a big leap to say he will then develop that image of an ocean into a metaphorical relationship, one which has willful actors; it could just be a literal ocean that he wants to drown in. You're starting out with reading lyrical imagery, and then running with it to reinforce another, different metaphor, which is not necessarily implied by the author. Fine for you, read it how you want, but you must acknowledge that you think "covered in hope and vaseline" is an image of impotence when juxtaposed with the rest of the song, but that's not the way the rest of us will necessarily read it. Particularly not when you take the leap to saying the meaning is implied more strongly by the surrounding songs, when actually the song stands on its own. Do you also seriously think "fix this broken machine" is supposed to mean "get my (metaphorical, because this is a secondary metaphor subsiding within the primary metaphor of a broken machine) cock erect"? Fine for you. But this is a whole lot of post-hoc justification in order to say that anyone else, who doesn't necessarily see the metaphor you're trying to reach for, of course must be blindly ignorant for not seeing it all over the place.

Reznor has employed phallic imagery at great length (so to speak, w00t) since the very beginning of his career as Nine Inch Nails and has likewise used the metaphor and imagery of impotence to convey his feelings about his place within the music industry.

The metaphor of impotence is certainly something one can find in some of these songs, but this recurring "imagery of impotence" is where you're just confused. You can say "performance anxiety" is a great metaphor for his feelings about staying in the music industry, sure. But you then take a leap into wanky C-minus criticism when you make images that aren't really related to that into a vast web of metaphors underneath more songs than it exists in. Then you go ahead and assert that the author definitely meant it that way, it's blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain, etc. etc. etc. That's why I made the comment about you seeing limp dicks everywhere there weren't any; because sometimes (with apologies to Freud), an arm that flip-flops is just an arm that flip-flops.

[allegro]

It's probably no accident that the first album is called "Pretty Hate Machine."

Read his "machine" lyrics in "The Becoming" on TDS, which song is not intended to be viewed as one song but as a part of a whole narrative within a concept album. That broken machine (former man) narrator is now present in TDS. He is made of circuitry and wires. His humanity is gone.

The Ruiner (machine) seeks power and there is plenty of Lucifer imagery (he wants to be equal to God in terms of power) and we even have a serpent (Reptile), although the Ruiner is the one with the tainted touch that makes angels bleed. (Religious imagery being present in all releases through TDS.)