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Thread: Random NIN Thoughts

  1. #11611
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheepdean View Post
    Whilst that would never happen (different labels!) why those albums? One more and you have the end of NIN being on label, one less and it's all pre-recovery
    I just thought of it as a greatest hits release, but with entire albums featuring Pretty Hate Machine to The Fragile, and just having With Teeth included since it was also a hit.

    To give you an example, it came to mind when I thought of these Radiohead and Korn releases I found on Amazon.com. (But yes, I see what you mean since those albums are on the same label, which is why it really was done out of sheer imagination and wishful thinking.) Anyway, I just thought of using those bands as an example since I recall you following both bands before if I remembered correctly.

    The Radiohead box set had Pablo Honey up to Hail to the Thief. (Which I also understand, since In Rainbows was their first album post-EMI.)



    As for Korn, they had a release with Korn up to Untouchables. That also came out after Take A Look in the Mirror, but I was surprised to see that it wasn't included, since it only came out the following year after Untouchables while also still being on Epic/Immortal.



    I have also considered those reasons before, but I was also playing around with that type of idea after seeing those types of releases by Radiohead and Korn. (In spite of it being unrealistic and impossible.) This also lead me to making up random imaginary box sets with other bands too.

    I'm sorry, it was hard for me to actually explain, but I hope that these examples were clear enough.

    @piggy - I hope that you can help me out too. We have actually brought up our sentiments of NIN before and after With Teeth too. I also think/hope that you'd easily get where I'm coming from here.

    @elevenism - Come to think of it, I also wondered what your take on this sort of thing would be as well.
    Last edited by Halo Infinity; 09-27-2017 at 10:16 PM.

  2. #11612
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    Well, it would make sense for one of those "album classics" sets, since they always have five and Broken could more or less count as an album (provided the label saw it that way, too.) But yeah, thinking of it as the "mainstream" years of NIN would also make sense. The last time NIN truly had a "hit" was 2005, so it could be a set that covers the years when NIN was still on the charts and more in the public consciousness.

  3. #11613
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheepdean View Post
    Whilst that would never happen (different labels!) why those albums?
    Actually, I've been thinking about this recently. I believe Trent will be able to regain all copyrights to Pretty Hate Machine in 7 years:

    https://futureofmusic.org/article/fa...ight-reversion

    In fact, he's already within the 10 year notification window, so he could have already informed the current rights holders that he intends to revert the copyright in 2024.

    After that, he's free to make that collection with Interscope. And, of course, in rolling succession, he'll be able to revert copyrights for Broken, TDS, etc.

  4. #11614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halo Infinity View Post
    I just thought of it as a greatest hits release, but with entire albums featuring Pretty Hate Machine to The Fragile, and just having With Teeth included since it was also a hit.

    To give you an example, it came to mind when I thought of these Radiohead and Korn releases I found on Amazon.com. (But yes, I see what you mean since those albums are on the same label, which is why it really was done out of sheer imagination and wishful thinking.) Anyway, I just thought of using those bands as an example since I recall you following both bands before if I remembered correctly.

    The Radiohead box set had Pablo Honey up to Hail to the Thief. (Which I also understand, since In Rainbows was their first album post-EMI.)



    As for Korn, they had a release with Korn up to Untouchables. That also came out after Take A Look in the Mirror, but I was surprised to see that it wasn't included, since it only came out the following year after Untouchables while also still being on Epic/Immortal.



    I have also considered those reasons before, but I was also playing around with that type of idea after seeing those types of releases by Radiohead and Korn. (In spite of it being unrealistic and impossible.) This also lead me to making up random imaginary box sets with other bands too.

    I'm sorry, it was hard for me to actually explain, but I hope that these examples were clear enough.

    @piggy - I hope that you can help me out too. We have actually brought up our sentiments of NIN before and after With Teeth too. I also think/hope that you'd easily get where I'm coming from here.

    @elevenism - Come to think of it, I also wondered what your take on this sort of thing would be as well.
    having been a hardcore fan since broken, I think it would be fucking great. I would definitely want it to be every halo like that expensive LZ box set though. Get the whole collection, remastered, for like $300. And I think it WILL happen eventually

  5. #11615
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    I would love to have a massive NIN box set for every halo plus a book with liner notes about each release written by fans of the band including musicians and composers. I would pay $500-$1K for that shit.

  6. #11616
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    Big Man With A Gun always makes my head pound, heart beat realy fast, and makes me want to do the most violent shit ever. Whenever I'm doing wind sprints to this song I start getting dizzy during "me and my fucking gun" at the end

  7. #11617
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    Quote Originally Posted by Final Destiny View Post
    There's only one example prior to that, which is 10/10v2 for the US/non-US versions of Further Down the Spiral. The other ones are either different releases entirely (like with And All That Could Have Been/Still) or were post-Fragile releases of pre-Fragile work (Pretty Hate Machine [02/02R] and TDS [8/8 DE etc.]).
    (Throwing this one in there):

    "The Hand That Feeds" is labeled as "HALO_18", while the Hot Topic picture disc is labeled as "HALO_18 V2"

  8. #11618
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachy View Post
    I wish Trent would bring “The Great Below” back to the live setlist.
    YES. Such a beautiful song. I have been listening to Deviations a lot and really marvel about how good it is.
    I remember seeing it live on Fragile 2.0 tour and the climax with the video of the person falling into the water made me lose control over my bladder.

  9. #11619
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    Howard Stern once again offhandedly insults Trent Reznor (at around the 39:10 mark): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QqnDZ4KfaY

  10. #11620
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    "REZZZZ-SNORE" is... Too bad they cut 'Trent' out. Hopefully a better video surfaces.

  11. #11621
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    ^ Trent isn't cut out. It's just how FB loops the clip.

  12. #11622
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    I wish Trent would bring "Deep" back into the live setlist.

  13. #11623
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    Another song Trent needs to start performing live again:


  14. #11624
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    I love Was It Worth It, but there is no way it's from the Fragile Era

  15. #11625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribbitman View Post
    I love Was It Worth It, but there is no way it's from the Fragile Era
    I found myself thinking that about most of the extra tracks from Deviations. I reckon what was left over was very patchy and TR/AR had to pretty much construct new pieces around tiny little bits of leftovers.

    There doesn't really seem to be any era of NIN that has very much unreleased stuff anyway. Aside from remixes, I mean. There are things like A Violet Fluid and Non Entity and all that, but they all turned up on official releases at some point. Or Now I'm Nothing, which probably doesn't have a studio version at all.

    If I take a look through some folders on my own laptop here, I probably have 200 little sketches of musical ideas which never got off the ground in any way. I'd imagine what didn't make it on to The Fragile in the first place was mostly just things like that. I would be surprised if there was even a single completed song which hasn't already made its way on to some release or another.

  16. #11626
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    ^^ You guys sure about that? They had a team of top-notch contributors (all working crazy hours for two full years) on The Fragile recording sessions, and by every account there was a LOT of disparate material left over.

  17. #11627
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    Quote Originally Posted by botley View Post
    ^^ You guys sure about that? They had a team of top-notch contributors (all working crazy hours for two full years) on The Fragile recording sessions, and by every account there was a LOT of disparate material left over.
    Yeah, I've heard a lot of that over the years and I've always hoped that would be the case, that there would be another 2 albums worth of unreleased gems knocking about somewhere. The point where I started to become skeptical was when I heard Claustrophobia Machine. It basically sounds like some old thing that I wouldn't even release had I made it myself, and that thing making the cut didn't bode well for the rest of the fabled unreleased stuff. So when I listened more closely to the rest of the extra tracks, I began to form the opinion I've expressed in my above post.

  18. #11628
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    Quote Originally Posted by astfgyl View Post
    I found myself thinking that about most of the extra tracks from Deviations. I reckon what was left over was very patchy and TR/AR had to pretty much construct new pieces around tiny little bits of leftovers.

    There doesn't really seem to be any era of NIN that has very much unreleased stuff anyway. Aside from remixes, I mean. There are things like A Violet Fluid and Non Entity and all that, but they all turned up on official releases at some point. Or Now I'm Nothing, which probably doesn't have a studio version at all.

    If I take a look through some folders on my own laptop here, I probably have 200 little sketches of musical ideas which never got off the ground in any way. I'd imagine what didn't make it on to The Fragile in the first place was mostly just things like that. I would be surprised if there was even a single completed song which hasn't already made its way on to some release or another.
    Quote Originally Posted by botley View Post
    ^^ You guys sure about that? They had a team of top-notch contributors (all working crazy hours for two full years) on The Fragile recording sessions, and by every account there was a LOT of disparate material left over.
    I think NIN has a lot of unreleased stuff pre-YZ (up to With Teeth), actually. I recall Dave Grohl saying that what he thought was TR's best work is still yet to be heard in an interview a few years ago.

    When I look at other bands that have plenty of bootlegged studio materials, I can't help but think that Trent must be really good at keeping stuff unreleased.

    This man has created music for 30 years, and since Broken - look at what we've got. Remixes aside, 3 demos from TDS deluxe, Top Of The Hour and ZiggyTardust (aka Lost Fragile Tracks). I think that's it?

  19. #11629
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    No doubt that some of these songs were completed but unreleased, but the idea of taking something sketchy and making it complete may have happened on some Deviations tracks

  20. #11630
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    I was listening to Niggy Tardust today, and it seems amazing to me, that if he had all this wealth of unreleased stuff, that he had to resort to reusing a track he had already given to somebody to pad out the Deviations release. I just don't think any more exists tbh. Well nothing that ever got past the bare sketch stage anyway.

    And I'm as disappointed as anybody else with the realisation that the material simply isn't there. I had really hoped there was loads more from that era of NIN which happens to be my favourite.

    I would love to hear a With Teeth Deviations next all the same, even if it was old sketches brought to full fruition in the now.

  21. #11631
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    Quote Originally Posted by astfgyl View Post
    I reckon what was left over was very patchy and TR/AR had to pretty much construct new pieces around tiny little bits of leftovers.
    There's no evidence to support that, and I can't really see them spending the time to do that anyway. It's kind of pointless to make a musical sketch sound like an ever so slightly more detailed musical sketch.

  22. #11632
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRoswell View Post
    There's no evidence to support that, and I can't really see them spending the time to do that anyway. It's kind of pointless to make a musical sketch sound like an ever so slightly more detailed musical sketch.
    Yeah maybe and maybe not. There is no evidence to the contrary, either. They certainly spent time on the instrumental versions of all of the tunes as it is, so why not spend the extra hour or two completing these little pieces?

  23. #11633
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    The burden of proof lies on you in this case. The tracks have been presented as being musical sketches from that time period. I personally see no reason for them to do something like that and hide it.

  24. #11634
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    I remember Trent talking in an interview where 10 Miles High was discussed how there were some other songs with "equally embarrassing lyrics" left. Or something like that. Maybe he was talking about the vocal versions from those 'new' instrumentals that appeared on D1?

    Also, didn't Ezrin mention in his Essay for the 'definitive' version of TF how he had to sift through a lot of songs in oder to arrive on a final sequence? I'm sure that at the stage he got brought in he wasn't given any demos or just sketches to arrange a sequence for the album.

    I'm still keeping my hopes up for a D2: TF release containing those songs as well as Slipping Away, The Great Collapse, AATCHB. And I hope 'Deviations' is not just Trent's way to sell us instrumental versions of his songs as anything other than... well... just instrumentals.

  25. #11635
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    Random NIN Thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by Ribbitman View Post
    I love Was It Worth It, but there is no way it's from the Fragile Era
    The drums sound like they were pieced together from similar "sound creation" experiments as the other tracks, and the rhythm and feel aren't that different from the intro on The Big Come Down. The guitar breakdown with the squalling guitar drone sounds pretty similar in tone to TF (the song). Many of the outtakes, including this one, we have that aren't just segues seem to flirt with the same DnB/90s hip hop beats/electronica that Trent was in love with back then. Paranoia is fun, but make sure you actually analyze it.

    As for the other stuff, Bob Ezrin wrote in the TF vinyl booklet that there was four hours of music. On TFD1, we have instrumentals for 2 1/2 hours. We already know that there are vocal tracks (in whatever shape) for several of these unreleased songs; whichever ones are designated as "instrumental." I wouldn't have guessed that the original of 10 Miles High was a kind of cock-rock tune; maybe there are a lot of alternate arrangements like that. It's impossible to know if there were really four hours of music, but I don't think there's any reason to assume there was nothing else, or that it had to be finished 17 years later – and that they'd be dishonest about it. He worked on it for two years with several other people. (I do think it's possible he's used some of the tracks as a basis for later works, considering pretty much every band does that.)
    Last edited by Pbgut; 10-01-2017 at 07:01 PM.

  26. #11636
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    Quote Originally Posted by r_z View Post
    I remember Trent talking in an interview where 10 Miles High was discussed how there were some other songs with "equally embarrassing lyrics" left. Or something like that. Maybe he was talking about the vocal versions from those 'new' instrumentals that appeared on D1?

    Also, didn't Ezrin mention in his Essay for the 'definitive' version of TF how he had to sift through a lot of songs in oder to arrive on a final sequence? I'm sure that at the stage he got brought in he wasn't given any demos or just sketches to arrange a sequence for the album.

    I'm still keeping my hopes up for a D2: TF release containing those songs as well as Slipping Away, The Great Collapse, AATCHB. And I hope 'Deviations' is not just Trent's way to sell us instrumental versions of his songs as anything other than... well... just instrumentals.
    Yeah, BE said there was four hours of material! I feel like that must be a slight misremembering but we do have 2 1/2 hours of stuff from Deviations, plus maybe another 20 minutes of b-sides from the era, so who knows. I really hope we get a complete 20th anniversary edition with those b-sides and maybe the new outtakes with the original vocals on 'em, and some demos. The only problem with this is pretty much everyone who would want a collection of the b-sides 20 years later probably already has those halos. (I'm not a surround sound guy but if they don't put out the 5.1 mix too I'm worried several people on this board will die.)

  27. #11637
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    When I see The Fragile: Deviations 1, it makes me think there will be a Deviations 2 for it. It seems to dumb to call another album With Teeth: Deviations 2. The number at the end makes me think it's the first of however many parts. If a release has only 1 Deviation planned, it would just be called The Fragile: Deviations. The way Trent and co. have been talking about The Fragile, I honestly expected more than what we go so far. Called different album's Deviations with numbers would just be confusing and strange.

    Perhaps when we get the next set of Definitive Editions we'll get The Fragile: Deviations 2. Then Trent will focus on other releases like Still and etc.
    Last edited by neorev; 10-01-2017 at 08:01 PM.

  28. #11638
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    Agreed. There will most likely be a "Deviations 2" of TF and hopefully it will be the 5.1 mix.

    Now, speaking of that Bob Ezrin essay, does anyone have scans or photos of it? I've been wanting to transcribe it for the NIN wiki.
    Last edited by piggy; 10-01-2017 at 11:32 PM.

  29. #11639
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pbgut View Post
    I don't think there's any reason to assume there was nothing else, or that it had to be finished 17 years later – and that they'd be dishonest about it. He worked on it for two years with several other people. (I do think it's possible he's used some of the tracks as a basis for later works, considering pretty much every band does that.)
    I don't see what is so outlandish about the idea that TR/AR finished off some or all of those tracks during the process of making Deviations. And I'm pretty sure I haven't said they were being dishonest about it either.

    Here is the description from nin.com...

    "LIMITED EDITION 4 LP DECONSTRUCTION OF THE FRAGILE BY TRENT REZNOR AND ATTICUS ROSS CLOCKING IN AT 150 MINUTES! CONTAINS INSTRUMENTALS, ALTERNATE VERSIONS AND OVER AN HOUR OF NEVER BEFORE HEARD MATERIAL FROM THE ORIGINAL FRAGILE RECORDING SESSIONS. A COMPLETELY NEW EXPERIENCE FOR FANS OF THE ORIGINAL MASTERPIECE."

    Nowhere there does it say that none of the tracks were finished off in 2015/16/17. So this idea of saying they were dishonest about it didn't come from me. Besides, even the main original album tracks have extra things added where the vocals have been taken away, and I presumed all along that they were new additions, using the type of sounds found on the album, rather than just having all those little things which were left out of the original recordings and simply putting them back in.

    I also cannot understand why it is getting peoples' backs up at the mere idea that the extra stuff might have been lying around in an unfinished state.

    Saying that there is over an hour of never before heard material from the original sessions does not mean or imply that it wasn't recently finished off, added to, or brought up to scratch in some way during the process. If everything was ready and done, why was AR credited in the description at all? What exactly did he do, then?

    I don't think the material is there, other folks think that it is. We will have to agree to disagree until something different happens. The idea of there being more Deviations from this album involving more new material doesn't seem realistic to me (because of the fact they chose to include Claustrophobia Machine, which to my ears does not fit in any way with the rest of the album sonically), and i think that if there is to be a Deviations 2 stemming from the same album, it would likely have to be the vocal version of the same thing.

  30. #11640
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    Quote Originally Posted by astfgyl View Post
    I don't see what is so outlandish about the idea that TR/AR finished off some or all of those tracks during the process of making Deviations. And I'm pretty sure I haven't said they were being dishonest about it either.

    Here is the description from nin.com...

    "LIMITED EDITION 4 LP DECONSTRUCTION OF THE FRAGILE BY TRENT REZNOR AND ATTICUS ROSS CLOCKING IN AT 150 MINUTES! CONTAINS INSTRUMENTALS, ALTERNATE VERSIONS AND OVER AN HOUR OF NEVER BEFORE HEARD MATERIAL FROM THE ORIGINAL FRAGILE RECORDING SESSIONS. A COMPLETELY NEW EXPERIENCE FOR FANS OF THE ORIGINAL MASTERPIECE."

    Nowhere there does it say that none of the tracks were finished off in 2015/16/17. So this idea of saying they were dishonest about it didn't come from me. Besides, even the main original album tracks have extra things added where the vocals have been taken away, and I presumed all along that they were new additions, using the type of sounds found on the album, rather than just having all those little things which were left out of the original recordings and simply putting them back in.

    I also cannot understand why it is getting peoples' backs up at the mere idea that the extra stuff might have been lying around in an unfinished state.
    If reason isn't enough for you, here are the online diaries. One of the first phrases is "endless revisions." http://nineinchnails.tumblr.com/post...blished-on-the In the same essay, the writer asks "I wonder what happens with all those parts they don't use."

    Again: paranoia is fun. But you have to analyze it. If it makes no sense, throw it out.

    With pretty much any album recording session, alternate mixes/takes/arrangements are tried out. With the advent of digital recording, it became incredibly easy to tweak things and create alternate versions. That's just standard. We know from the old studio diaries posted online that there were several different arrangements of SD and WITT made in a week or two, and that was just in the last couple months of recording. With TR's obsessive work ethic, and his initial difficulty writing new material, it doesn't surprise me that there were tracks like "Claustrophobia Machine" to get the juices flowing. Nothing new was added. He spent two years working on it, with various segues and intros being cut off and added on for flow. Were the instrumental mixes made more recently? Probably. But they're just the pre-existing alternate arrangements and mixes that are made for any Pro Tools-era album with the vocals muted. I guess your assumptions are coming from not understanding how he works and how many alternate arrangements he tried but - they're not gonna record an acoustic guitar part for The Wretched (which also shows up on The Wretched remix from 2000, so - it's from that era) 18 years later just for the hell of it. It makes no sense. It's a document of the alternate mixes from the original sessions, like any other boxset/reissue, with the vocals muted.

    And again, Bob Ezrin said there were four hours of music. TR said a couple of years ago that he found a large number of demos as well. Also it's pretty unusual to think or worry about the concept of many of these tracks as "finished" when they're all instrumental and several of the vinyl-exclusive tracks are little segue tracks like "Last Heard From." If that's "finished" enough to put out, why would you assume that any work was done on the rest. People are annoyed because the thinking is so irrational - like assuming that Instagram post of the Add Violence CD was fake because "you could just make your own CD with the vinyl artwork" or whatever.

    "Never before heard material from the original Fragile sessions" means that all that stuff existed, probably mixed down to DAT. (There was a bad DAT audio error of the alt. La Mer on Apple Music, and there isn't any reason to use DATs any more.) "Deconstructed" means that they put an entirely new sequence of the album together from outtakes and instrumental mixes of the pre-existing alternate arrangements we know exist.
    Last edited by Pbgut; 10-02-2017 at 06:47 AM.

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