Gun Talk - News, Laws, etc.

[DigitalChaos]

This guy has my overarching message distilled into a 2min video:

[Jinsai]

there is evidence of it everywhere
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/0...-Investigation
Try googling if you are actually interested.

It's just surprising, given that an "inside job" 9/11 conspiracy theory would seem to contradict many of the assertions made in Fahrenheit 9/11. It's also strange that it seems the only time he brought this up is that one instance while promoting Sicko. That one bizarre instance doesn't qualify him for comparison to Alex Jones, who is the biggest fountain of conspiracy theories out there.

Regardless, none of this has much bearing on Bowling for Columbine. He's a manipulative filmmaker, and he does intentionally mislead the audience at times, and he can wallow in melodrama that really doesn't do his stance much good, but there's still some good points made in the movie.

EDIT: That video is ridiculous. What the hell is up with these analogies? "It's like Jay Z and R. Kelly getting together to" what the fuck?! He can be as vaguely dismissive of the proposed bill as he wants to be, but he doesn't address the reason people are mad. The vast majority of the people surveyed were in support of universal background checks, and they were flatly ignored. You can't have a rant about this and not even address that.

[DigitalChaos]

I definitely agree. I think the Manson segment was the best of the entire thing.

[aggroculture]

http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/

[Satyr]

http://accidentalgunshots.tumblr.com/

I'm sure it made you feel much better about yourself to post about those tragedies. You've won 10 internets!

Would you like me to start threads where you can post about accidental drownings or accidental vehicle related deaths?

[aggroculture]

No. But I am always interested in how people bring up completely irrelevant things instead of facing this issue.

[DigitalChaos]

Quick, lets put together a site listing all the people who were victimized, injured, or killed in a situation where the victim didn't have a gun!



seriously, what value do those types of sites serve? It's too pointless to change anyone's mind. It's pure circlejerk.

[Elke]

I'm sorry, but how is listing accidental gun deaths not relevant to a gun control debate?

The auto industry does this all the time: compiling lists of acidental vehicular deaths and coming up with new ways to reduce the chance of someone dying in a car crash. It's why we've seen a decrease of vehicular deaths compared to the number of cars on the road: not because people drive more safely, but because cars have been made safer, there's more traffic control and higher fines, en people are forced to take more difficult driving tests in order to get a license.

A list of gun related accidents can reveal similar patterns, which in turn can inspire similar solutions to prevent these deaths. Because we can assume that people aren't suddenly going to become smarter about guns, we might as well see if there's nothing else that can be done.

[Satyr]

I'm sorry, but how is listing accidental gun deaths not relevant to a gun control debate?

The auto industry does this all the time: compiling lists of acidental vehicular deaths and coming up with new ways to reduce the chance of someone dying in a car crash. It's why we've seen a decrease of vehicular deaths compared to the number of cars on the road: not because people drive more safely, but because cars have been made safer, there's more traffic control and higher fines, en people are forced to take more difficult driving tests in order to get a license.

A list of gun related accidents can reveal similar patterns, which in turn can inspire similar solutions to prevent these deaths. Because we can assume that people aren't suddenly going to become smarter about guns, we might as well see if there's nothing else that can be done.

Well there we go. Lets be constructive. You have the list of gun related accidents. What are the patterns and how would you suggest preventing these tragedies. I'm genuinely interested.

[Elke]

If I was American, I'd spend time wading through that. It seems like a decent starting point.

[Minpin]

I haven't looked at this thread in the last couple of weeks, and there seemed to be a bit of politics that I don't understand, so I'm just going to weigh in a bit randomly.

As I've stated before I have no real conception of American culture, and the need for guns as a tool for self defence. The notion is completely foreign to me for which I'm very thankful. I know guns in terms of sporting and hunting.

I'm a little too drunk to read through aggrocultures link, but the number of times I hear of a situation where someone picks up a gun and accidentally shoots and injures/kills someone really disturbs me. Being raised around guns, the cardinal rules were never point a gun at a person, never leave a gun loaded, and never leave a gun unsecured (you'd put medicine in a cabinet out of a child's reach yet leave a fucking handgun on your bedside table?!)

This obviously doesn't gel with the American self defence circumstance. Obviously having a gun in a safe with the ammo stored in a separate locked case isn't going to help you defend yourself.

While I still think the first reform should be a mandatory safety course, the notion of raising the price of ammunition is an interesting option.

It's pretty interesting to observe how naive the anti gun crowd is.

What is this moronic statement pertaining too? The idea that you are either 'pro gun' or 'anti gun' is completely retarded. It's a question of regulation. I think demonstrable competency with a gun should be a requirement, does that make me 'anti gun'?

[Satyr]

Well there we go. Lets be constructive. You have the list of gun related accidents. What are the patterns and how would you suggest preventing these tragedies. I'm genuinely interested.

Crickets....yet again. You ask the anti-gun crowd to be constructive and come up with a solution....

Not just crickets but some drunk guys calling people morons and their ideas retarded while contributing absolutely nothing tangible. Not surprised in the least.

[Elke]

I'm sorry, 'drunk guys'? Now that is... wow. Such a good, solid argument. Proof solid of your stance, if I ever I saw it.

[aggroculture]

There are 30,000 gun-deaths a year. 30,000 is a small town. Every year a small town is snuffed off the map.
If Muslim terrorists were bombing small towns of 30,000 adults and children off the map every year we'd be in WWIII: we'd be nuking the world. Remember only 3000 people died in 9/11. A tenth of the yearly gun deaths.
The USA has made peace with this amount of deaths every year, and it's sickening.
I think that part of the problem is that though massive, the number is too low for many of us to be affected by it: 30,000 is 1/10,000th or 0.001% of the population. You have a very small chance of actually knowing someone killed by a gun, even though they're dropping like flies around us.

[Satyr]

Made to order statistics and more emotional stuff from a drunk.

Still no solutions suggested? I'm surprised.

[Satyr]

There are 30,000 gun-deaths a year. 30,000 is a small town. Every year a small town is snuffed off the map.
If Muslim terrorists were bombing small towns of 30,000 adults and children off the map every year we'd be in WWIII: we'd be nuking the world. Remember only 3000 people died in 9/11. A tenth of the yearly gun deaths.
The USA has made peace with this amount of deaths every year, and it's sickening.
I think that part of the problem is that though massive, the number is too low for many of us to be affected by it: 30,000 is 1/10,000th or 0.001% of the population. You have a very small chance of actually knowing someone killed by a gun, even though they're dropping like flies around us.

There are 75+K Alcohol related deaths per year. You get on board with the full blown prohibition of alcohol. I'll get on board with prohibition of guns.

[DF118]

There are 75+K Alcohol related deaths per year. You get on board with the full blown prohibition of alcohol. I'll get on board with prohibition of guns.

How many of those 75,000 alcohol related deaths were murders?

[aggroculture]

What drunk? I barely drink. Somebody else posted about being drunk, get your re-read on.

Also, why are you talking about alcohol? We're talking about guns here, stop changing the subject.

[DigitalChaos]

Crickets....yet again. You ask the anti-gun crowd to be constructive and come up with a solution....

Not just crickets but some drunk guys calling people morons and their ideas retarded while contributing absolutely nothing tangible. Not surprised in the least.

yuuuup

Speaking of crickets.... some 5 year old kid shot his 2 year old sister with a Cricket Rifle (my first rifle). Fine, give your kid a 22 to teach him about guns but don't turn your back. Your eyes should be on the kid 100% of the time that they have the gun in their hands. I am guessing the parents are the type who say "a 22 can't kill you" like it's a BB gun or something.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/01/us/ken...html?hpt=hp_t2

[Satyr]

What drunk? I barely drink. Somebody else posted about being drunk, get your re-read on.

Also, why are you talking about alcohol? We're talking about guns here, stop changing the subject.

Minpin. He replied to a post of mine where he admitted to being too drunk to read through a site then continued to call me a moron and my ideas retarded. All while offing up absolutely nothing constructive.

[Satyr]

yuuuup

Speaking of crickets.... some 5 year old kid shot his 2 year old sister with a Cricket Rifle (my first rifle). Fine, give your kid a 22 to teach him about guns but don't turn your back. Your eyes should be on the kid 100% of the time that they have the gun in their hands. I am guessing the parents are the type who say "a 22 can't kill you" like it's a BB gun or something.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/01/us/ken...html?hpt=hp_t2

I huge part of the problem is that our country has abandoned the concept of personal responsibility. In the case you sited. It would be the inanimate objects fault (the gun) and the parents have no responsibility.

Also likewise for all the negligent discharges...Also the firearms fault. Not the person that shot themself.

[aggroculture]

Minpin. He replied to a post of mine where he admitted to being too drunk to read through a site then continued to call me a moron and my ideas retarded. All while offing up absolutely nothing constructive.

Exactly what constructive advice have you offered to reduce that 30,000 gun death figure?
"Personal responsibility" just isn't cutting it, as we can see.

[Satyr]

Exactly what constructive advice have you offered to reduce that 30,000 gun death figure?
"Personal responsibility" just isn't cutting it, as we can see.

Placing more importance on personal responsibility than blaming inanimate objects for injuries and deaths. There. I suggested something that might actually impact the death toll.

[aggroculture]

And how would that work, if you refuse to mandate that people are at least required to be trained how to use these killing machines?
How do you get people to be more responsible?

[Satyr]

And how would that work, if you refuse to mandate that people are at least required to be trained how to use these killing machines?
How do you get people to be more responsible?

I seem to recall being subjected to a massive campaign against tobacco. Maybe do something similar but have commercials that advocate not leaving loaded firearms around children.

You have any better ideas? I'd love to hear them.

[allegro]

I huge part of the problem is that our country has abandoned the concept of personal responsibility.

Let me assure you that the legal system has NOT abandoned "the concept of personal responsibility."

I've already given my biggest suggestion: legalize drugs.

But this "War on Drugs" has been so damned successful, nobody's gonna give up that shit. <---- sarcasm

[Satyr]

Let me assure you that the legal system has NOT abandoned "the concept of personal responsibility."

I've already given my biggest suggestion: legalize drugs.

But this "War on Drugs" has been so damned successful, nobody's gonna give up that shit.

So people are able to responsibly do heroin, cocaine, LSD...but they cannot be trusted with firearms?

[Deepvoid]

Guns don't kill people. 5-year old kids do.

How many kids have shot dead other people in the last couple months? I remember at least 3 time easily.
Since ridicule doesn't kill either, it's unfortunate the kid did not know how to reload because he should have shot the not so responsible parent for not watching them. One right in the back of the head.

Jesus .. I don't know you gun fanatics can even look at yourself in the mirror and say "thank god we have so many guns available for us and basically little to no regulation."
Gotta be mentality ... you know .. I don't want to say ill but I'll go with unstable.

[DigitalChaos]

So people are able to responsibly do heroin, cocaine, LSD...but they cannot be trusted with firearms?

That's not what she said.

I'd say that legalizing drugs is a step TOWARD a culture of more responsibility.

[DigitalChaos]

And how would that work, if you refuse to mandate that people are at least required to be trained how to use these killing machines?
How do you get people to be more responsible?

Instead of coddling them and acting like they are the victim of not having enough laws to protect them... how about you ridicule the fuck out of them in the public spotlight. And I'm not talking about the politicized ridicule that happens only from the Dems or Repubs... I am talking about universal "you and anyone who does what you did are too fucking stupid to live" ridicule.



Spoiler: I'd settle for just stopping the portion we are doing now with the coddling and victimization of too few laws



Anyone remember the DEA agent who shot himself infront of a classroom of kids? Did anyone say "wow, we need to prevent police from having access to guns"?? No, they said "wtf, that guy is a goddamned idiot"