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Thread: Gun Talk - News, Laws, etc.

  1. #2161
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    Quote Originally Posted by botley View Post
    This is a semantics issue; when the Media calls something a “mass shooting,” they mean one singular incident that happens at one time by one person or an organized group of persons (terrorists). Decades of whites killing Native Americans and stealing their land isn’t included in “mass shooting” data because it was over the course of days and years, not minutes or hours; bombs aren’t included in mass “shooting” data, either.

    The point is correct: the NRA was totally for gun control when the Black Panthers openly carried arms to protect themselves from police brutality. The NRA didn’t give one shit about Philando Castile.

  2. #2162
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    twitter embedding fails a lot, so im adding a sublink within your post, just FYI.

    and yeah... ive been thinking about what age I should be giving my kids some form of phone. The school explicitly bans them but there are many reason I'd like to be able to contact them. Emergencies are one of them.
    Huh, I just thought it was my shitty browser (IE11).

  3. #2163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louie_Cypher View Post
    you want to see gun legislation get attention, have blacks and minorities, exercise their right to open carry
    -Louie
    No, we'd just have a lot more dead blacks and minorities.

  4. #2164
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    I learned quite a bit about guns... from fucking politifact! wtf is happening?!?!

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...d-las-vegas-s/

    That was a pretty solid read about suppressors. Lots I hadn't considered. Who and where a suppressor actually silences for, the difference between the gun's bang and the crack of the bullet, the fact that the room would have been able to do a superior job of any sort of acoustic stealth, etc.

    @allegro - this also addresses the potential for instant hearing damage.
    Last edited by DigitalChaos; 10-10-2017 at 03:52 PM.

  5. #2165
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    I learned quite a bit about guns... from fucking politifact! wtf is happening?!?!

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...d-las-vegas-s/

    That was a pretty solid read about suppressors. Lots I hadn't considered. Who and where a suppressor actually silences for, the difference between the gun's bang and the crack of the bullet, the fact that the room would have been able to do a superior job of any sort of acoustic stealth, etc.

    @allegro - this also addresses the potential for instant hearing damage.
    Whoa, interesting!!!

    A shooting weapon produces two sounds. One is the crack of the bullet, which can be heard on most video recordings of the shooting and is produced by the bullet traveling faster than the speed of sound. This is unaffected by suppressors.

  6. #2166
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    Georgia politician holds bump stock giveaway

    NBC News on MSN.com · 7 hours ago

    A GOP senator running for governor in Georgia is giving away a bump stock, the modification apparently used by the Las Vegas shooter.


    Well that's not tone deaf.

  7. #2167
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegate View Post
    Georgia politician holds bump stock giveaway

    NBC News on MSN.com · 7 hours ago

    A GOP senator running for governor in Georgia is giving away a bump stock, the modification apparently used by the Las Vegas shooter.


    Well that's not tone deaf.
    fuck that guy. this screams "i need attention."

  8. #2168
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    It's not tone deaf at all if he is trying to attract defiant gun owners. You will commonly see giveaways of a gun product that politicians are trying to ban.

  9. #2169
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    @allegro - yeah that was new to me too. But now it makes sense why subsonic ammo is a thing. It keeps the bullet from creating the sonic boom. It probably pairs well with a suppressor too. And before anyone decides to ban those, it just means the bullet has way less speed and effective distance.

  10. #2170
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    It's not tone deaf at all if he is trying to attract defiant gun owners. You will commonly see giveaways of a gun product that politicians are trying to ban.
    Yeah but it seems to happen a ton in my state and it's fucking disgusting.


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  11. #2171
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    Continued from HERE (wrong thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by eskimo View Post
    If your laws are unenforceable, then FIX THEM! If it takes a president getting shot for anyone to give a shit, that's just another example of your country not caring about anyone but the wealthiest in it.
    Again, you're not understanding American culture or American civics. The laws are enforceable, but there are problems with enforcement -- mostly caused by our own freedoms provided by our Constitution as well as logistical problems that are endless and difficult to fix.

    I'll give you an example:

    The City of Chicago is often touted on TV and by the Cheeto as having the "strictest" gun laws in the country. But that's a total load of bullshit. However, that being said, even with those strict gun bans that were in place for over 30 years, we still had a ton of shootings. Because criminals don't follow laws. They're criminals. Background checks etc. only work if people abide by the law. If the criminal sends a straw man to Indiana where you only need a driver's license and that gun buyer then sells the gun to a criminal with six felony gun convictions, the system can't stop that. Straw men purchases are illegal, but no straw man is gonna tell a gun dealer that he's a straw man. And each state has its own gun laws, because of states rights built into not only our Tenth Amendment to our national Constitution but also its Second Amendment. Also, criminals get stolen guns, and now it's really believed by many here that the guns are coming in WITH THE DRUGS. Like, TRAIN LOADS of drugs and guns.

    So, how do we "fix" that? I don't know if you've noticed, but Chicago is broke. Illinois is broke. I mean, like, so in debt, Chicago is been lowered to "junk bond" status. Mostly due to bad spending but a lot due to municipal pension debts. Which can't be changed due to our STATE Constitution. So we keep raising various taxes, etc., but more police presence means needing a lot more money. Which Chicago doesn't HAVE.

    So, the Cheeto and Sessions has indicated that maybe they'll send in the Feds to help Chicago fight this problem, which our Mayor and our Police Superintendent said would be AWESOME because now gun offenders -- who often make bail within HOURS because gang members are connected to a network of wealth that has no problem paying $10,000 or $20,000 bail -- either commit more gun crimes while out on bail, or they are in jail for a short time and then are let out due to OVERCROWDING in the jail. Can't build another jail because of NO MONEY. BUT, if the Feds take over gun charges, the offenders will be sentenced to FEDERAL prison, also known as "Siberia" because these prisons are far away and so controlled that gangs can't run things while in jail or prison.

    BUT ... the Cheeto and Sessions now won't help Chicago at all because it's a SANCTUARY CITY to undocumented immigrants and will not change that. Sessions claims that the gang shootings are all related to undocumented immigrants. Except the shootings are primarily black people. *shrug* Oh, wait, but Sessions says it's because the undocumented immigrants are bringing in ALL THE DRUGS. Which is a load of shit, but whatever, so we're stuck with trying to do the best we can to fight what are basically drug gangs selling drugs to people from the suburbs, and it's like the OK Corral. And it's WORSE per capita in many other cities, here. And it's not going to get fixed any time soon because every one of those cities is too busy managing debts and isn't gonna spend money in a ghetto.

    See: Chicago Needs a War on Poverty to Stop the Violence.

    And that's just ONE example of why this isn't an easy problem, why it's hard to enforce laws.

    Oh, SUUUUUURE, we can do what NYC did years ago, with random searches and seizures, and cops beating the shit out of people -- all people, innocent people -- in order to "enforce" gun laws and to "clean up the neighborhood." But, the Supreme Court of the United States determined that this was not only a bad idea, it was totally illegal. So, that ain't happening. We have civil liberties, here. We can't "enforce the law" by taking liberties from others.

    Regarding Congress enacting new laws after Reagan was shot: That is because many members of Congress, including Democrats, know that gun control is so powerful an issue that they risk not being re-elected if they vote in favor of gun control laws that are perceived as a "slippery slope" to voters. In 1994, after a President had recently been shot, and three Presidents endorsed a gun-control law, it garnered more support in Congress; but it DIDN'T have support among voters, which is why a lot of people lost in the next election.

    Gun owners see crime as ANOTHER REASON TO HAVE A GUN. So "giving a shit," to them, means owning a gun. Not the opposite. Now, gun owners are pointing to the fact that two gun-owning citizens in Texas shot at the shooter, shot him twice, and pursued him in a car.

    This actually happened in front of me, once, weird story: I was living in a suburb of Detroit that's pretty much surrounded by Detroit and has crime problems because criminals come in, commit crimes, then disappear over the city's border into Detroit. Anyway, I lived on the 2nd floor, was home one summer night and heard SCREAMING out front. I ran to my front balcony and saw a neighbor lady, Lotty, being held up at gunpoint by 3 teenagers. Suddenly, FRONT DOORS STARTED OPENING in other homes around where Lotty was standing, and people started coming out HOLDING RIFLES and shit.

    And the culprits jumped into a car and took off. And some of these neighbors JUMPED INTO CARS AND TOOK OFF AFTER THESE ROBBERS. Craziest shit I'd ever seen. The cops showed up (really small police force, no money, "jail" was them handcuffing you to the cigarette machine) and they said Lotty shouldn't have screamed, she coulda been shot. Yeah, fuck that shit, you didn't see what happened!

    Ends up the neighbors scared the shit out of these robbers, the robbers crashed the car and started running on foot, and I guess these neighbors CHASED AFTER THEM WITH RIFLES and shit.

    Like, yeah, this is another Day in America.
    Last edited by allegro; 11-07-2017 at 12:00 PM.

  12. #2172
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweeterthan View Post
    We are stupid. We keep electing people who do nothing. There are plenty of fixes proposed year after year. Biden tried to get sweeping gun control reform through congress after sandy hook but our paid by the NRA congress didn't do a damn thing.
    See, that's also a myth.

    You know who makes the NRA so powerful? VOTERS. Not Congress. Congress, contrary to popular beliefs, gets very little money from the NRA. Sure, the NRA contributes to PACs but that's not why so much of Congress is voting against gun laws.

    They're voting against gun laws because the voters who PUT THEM THERE expect them to vote against gun laws. And if they do the opposite, they'll be unemployed. DEMOCRATS have voted against gun laws for this reason. BERNIE SANDERS has voted against gun laws.

    So, the NRA is there -- and paid for -- by voters who have this idea that Congress is suddenly going to take all the guns. And these voters vote for people who vow to keep their 2nd Amendment rights.

    So, you wanna blame somebody? Blame American citizens who vote for this stuff, because they are afraid of slippery slopes or whatever other reason. But, the NRA doesn't control Congress; the VOTERS control Congress when it comes to gun issues.

    Edit: but also see my above post about how the root of a lot of shootings isn’t about the gun; it’s about the people who have the gun. Insanity, poverty, drugs, anger and misogyny, crime, etc.
    Last edited by allegro; 11-07-2017 at 05:31 PM.

  13. #2173
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    I absolutely blame the voters. That’s why I said we are stupid. The Republican Party can fire up their base anytime with guns and abortion. It works every time except when they lost to Obama. Then they convince them Obama’s would take their precious guns.

    The gun lobby, the nra and the gun manufacturers are the only ones who can help us. I’ll keep saying it because we need their help. We’re fucked until they do.


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  14. #2174
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweeterthan View Post
    The gun lobby, the nra and the gun manufacturers are the only ones who can help us. I’ll keep saying it because we need their help. We’re fucked until they do.
    I'm sorry, but the NRA and Gun manufacturers are just as likely to help this situation as Philip Morris vying to ban cigarettes or Exxon arguing for emission taxes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    I'm sorry, but the NRA and Gun manufacturers are just as likely to help this situation as Philip Morris vying to ban cigarettes or Exxon arguing for emission taxes.
    I agree with you but I think pushing ideas for public safety would make them look good. There would be no need for government regulation if they regulated themselves and maybe even saved lives. The safety of the general public should be their top concern. Instead, the entire 2a attitude is there’s nothing we can do. Until the gun industry fixes itself, I will support any and all calls for gun control.

  16. #2176
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    What a coincidence. ^^ That's the same reason I support putting gun dispensing machines in the hands of tens of thousands of people.

    Which of us is making more ground

  17. #2177
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweeterthan View Post
    I agree with you but I think pushing ideas for public safety would make them look good. There would be no need for government regulation if they regulated themselves and maybe even saved lives. The safety of the general public should be their top concern. Instead, the entire 2a attitude is there’s nothing we can do. Until the gun industry fixes itself, I will support any and all calls for gun control.
    David Cross had a really good (and dark as fuck) comedy bit about this on his last standup album... I can't find the clip, but apparently the video is now on Netflix?

  18. #2178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    David Cross had a really good (and dark as fuck) comedy bit about this on his last standup album... I can't find the clip, but apparently the video is now on Netflix?
    Was it from last year's tour? I saw him in february 2016 and i don't remember him talking about guns specifically but i remember him saying a bunch of funny stuff that i agreed with.

  19. #2179
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweeterthan View Post
    Was it from last year's tour? I saw him in february 2016 and i don't remember him talking about guns specifically but i remember him saying a bunch of funny stuff that i agreed with.
    Yeah... the audio standup was from right before the election... and the bit deals with something along the lines of "so, what if... just what if... whatever senator or whatever who's got a glowing review from the NRA... he's got like five smiling bullets or whatever... and it's 'Take Your Daughter to Work Day' and some crazy lunatic fuck comes in with a bullet proof vest and assault rifles, and he shoots his daughter... and she's bleeding out in his arms, saying 'Daddy, WHY, what's happening?! WHY!?' and that's what she's trying to say, but it's just coming out as a wet gargling whistle because her larynx is crushed... and as the light is fading from her eyes, he gets a call from Wayne LaPierre, and he says 'oh yes sir, I promise, it'll never happen again, she was my only child. Just send the check to the usual. Thanks.'"

    "Or maybe, just maybe, he'll say, 'wow, now that this problem has personally impacted me I can understand how it's something that we should do something about!' Y'know, just maybe... Who knows?"

  20. #2180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    I'm sorry, but the NRA and Gun manufacturers are just as likely to help this situation as Philip Morris vying to ban cigarettes or Exxon arguing for emission taxes.
    The NRA **HAS** supported gun control regulations.

    http://time.com/4431356/nra-gun-control-history/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    The problem IS that voters are so adamantly grounded in their love for guns that the very notion of new legislation is immediately met with resistance, and moaning about slippery slopes. I had a few completely insane arguments following the Vegas shooting with people who resisted the idea of banning bumper stocks for that exact reason - it's a slippery slope and it'll accomplish nothing.

    No, it's not a slippery slope, it's a reinforcement of a law we passed banning fully automatic weapons; a law we all pretty much agreed was a-OK. So if there's something out there that circumvents the law, you outlaw it.

    But no, there's a deep love for high powered guns in this country. People want their AR-15s. OK.... you've got them. I get that we're going to have a hard time taking them from your cold dead hands. So let's just meet halfway and get rid of this bumper thing?
    It's called a "Bump Stock" and we had legislation pretty much IMMEDIATELY here in Illinois to ban them, but it failed in Illinois Congress. And you know WHY? For the same reason why most of these other pieces of gun legislation OR ANY OTHER PIECES OF LEGISLATION fail ... the bill wasn't JUST about bump stocks, the authors loaded other shit in there that was way beyond bump stocks.

    But opponents, including Rep. Jerry Costello, a Democrat from Downstate Smithton, called the bill too far-reaching because it would ban any modification that accelerates the rate of fire — such as changing a spring or replacing a trigger.

    “I don’t view this as a bump stock ban, I view this as a ban on 40 to 50 percent of the guns in the state,” Costello said. His district includes the World Shooting Recreational Complex in Sparta.

    Costello said the legislation would turn people who modify firearms to compete in shooting competitions into lawbreakers. Most lawmakers agreed with his side of the argument, rejecting the proposal by a 48-54 vote.
    Opponents of Moylan’s bill offered an alternative backed by Rep. Barbara Wheeler, R-Crystal Lake. It would ban only bump stocks, not other devices. That bill has the support of the Illinois State Rifle Association.

    “The language in the actual bill matters,” said Rep. Mark Batinick, R-Plainfield. “If you want to address the issue, let’s address the issue in a thoughtful, bipartisan manner.”

    Following the vote, Moylan said he was willing to consider narrowing his bill to win more support, but he said the bill pushed by Republicans did not go far enough.

    "We're not going to dilute it so it's not effective," he said.
    OKAY, SO NOTHING GETS DONE, YOU ASSHOLES.

    Federal Congress HAS gone in to pass ONE FUCKING THING so we know they CAN do it, that it's possible; but the vast majority of the time, both state and federal congressional politicians get so caught up in this "but what's in it for ME?!?!!" shit that nothing gets done.

    Note that the NRA did indicate support of additional regulations regarding bump stocks.

    The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations
    The talking heads I've seen on TV said this probably means regulations via the ATF, required licensing, etc., so that pretty much only licensed hunters can obtain them and there's a list of people who have them or whatever.

    See this.

    “In Las Vegas, reports indicate that certain devices were used to modify the firearms involved. Despite the fact that the Obama administration approved the sale of bump fire stocks on at least two occasions, the National Rifle Association is calling on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) to immediately review whether these devices comply with federal law.” -- NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION STATEMENT
    Last edited by allegro; 11-07-2017 at 04:37 PM.

  22. #2182
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    Quote Originally Posted by allegro View Post
    The NRA **HAS** supported gun control regulations.

    http://time.com/4431356/nra-gun-control-history/
    Yes, and they now lean towards banning bump stocks (thank you for the correction), but it's only because THIS CRAZY SHIT has happened. They fought it before when it was on the table four years ago. They capitulate strategically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinsai View Post
    Yes, and they now lean towards banning bump stocks (thank you for the correction), but it's only because THIS CRAZY SHIT has happened. They fought it before when it was on the table four years ago. They capitulate strategically.
    They don’t want to ban them, they’re calling on the ATF to investigate further regulations, should be subject to further ATF regulations. They’re blaming Obama’s ATF for approving them twice since 2010. Always both sides throwing blame back and forth. Nothing gets done.

    There IS a down side to banning vs. highly regulating, much like what we see now with drugs or what we had during prohibition: a banned item immediately becomes VERY VALUABLE, especially for collectors, so people can demand high prices and will reap rewards from that demand because of the limited supply in the black market; this doesn’t happen as much when something is legal yet highly regulated.
    Last edited by allegro; 11-07-2017 at 05:26 PM.

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    Gun Talk - News, Laws, etc.

    Pentagon released a report

    "Failure to report the outcome of criminal cases was 79 % in the Army and 50 % in the Air Force, the report said. In the Navy, it was 94 %"


    https://apnews.com/8d1635542436469a95831460bdcf8343


    But guys, we need to pass more gun control on the citizens because *feelings* and my feelings only include *more government power*

  25. #2185
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    New Yorker article from last year, “Terror Begins at Home” -

    http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-...begins-at-home

    In fact, though, there is a connection between domestic violence and mass shootings, and in acknowledging that connection there is some hope for helping to prevent both. A recent analysis of mass shootings, conducted by the research-and-advocacy group Everytown for Gun Safety, found the link to domestic violence “noteworthy.” Using the F.B.I.’s definition of mass shootings as incidents in which four or more people are murdered by guns, the Everytown researchers were able to document a hundred and thirty-three such shootings between January, 2009, and July, 2015. They found that “in at least 76 of the cases (57%), the shooter killed a current or former spouse or intimate partner or other family member, and in at least 21 incidents the shooter had a prior domestic violence charge.”

    The lethal intersection of firearms and intimate-partner violence is actually one of the few gun-safety matters that Congress has acted on. In 1996, it adopted the Lautenberg Amendment, which bans people who have been convicted of domestic-violence misdemeanors, or who are subject to restraining orders, from owning firearms. This was sound and compassionate legislation. Guns are the most common method, by far, for killing intimate partners. Not surprisingly, the presence of a firearm in the home makes it much more likely that a woman in an abusive relationship will end up dead. And there is evidence that restrictions of the kind the Lautenberg Amendment and some state legislatures have enacted truly help. According to researchers at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, “laws restricting firearm access for batterers subject to restraining orders are associated with a 19% reduction in rates of intimate homicide.”

    Unfortunately, the federal law and similar state laws are spottily enforced. These regulations are only effective if states put in place a screening process for potential gun buyers, to see if they have restraining orders against them—and many states have not. In those cases, there is nothing to stop domestic abusers from buying, say, semiautomatic assault rifles, other than their willingness to self-report. The same applies to turning in guns they already own. Some states have laws that allow police to seize firearms when responding to domestic-violence incidents, but most do not.

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    Whatever dude. Are you trying to be condescending? There needs to be consequences for not reporting this information because people are dying not because fucking feelings are hurt. Massive fucking eyeroll.


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    Gun Talk - News, Laws, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweeterthan View Post
    Whatever dude. Are you trying to be condescending? There needs to be consequences for not reporting this information because people are dying not because fucking feelings are hurt. Massive fucking eyeroll.


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    Wait wait. So we DONT need to respond to the situation with more gun control now? What changed?

    Enforcing existing laws sounds familiar. I wonder who was suggesting that.

  28. #2188
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
    Wait wait. So we DONT need to respond to the situation with more gun control now? What changed?
    Nothing changed except you being a troll. We absolutely do need gun control. What part of my post led you to believe that’s changed for me? This is a multi faceted problem. Enforcing the current laws and standards is part of it. Creating new guidelines for background checks is another part. There’s a ton of things that could be done right now that would help. I also said I’d support the industry instead of regulation if they lead the way on the matter but you’ve ignored that and reduced it to “because feelings”.

    What you said is dismissive and condescending. Keep pretending it’s about my feelings not about public safety and the lack of control we have over completely preventable deaths that are happening daily.

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    Gun Talk - News, Laws, etc.

    What possible additional gun control can provably have prevented this situation? Why does this situation justify more?

    The only thing that provably would have stopped him from getting this gun is the military actually reporting the crime that would have blocked the NICS background check.



    And yeah I'm being obnoxious with my approach, but I think we've all lobbed shit back and forth enough over the years that nobody is taking offense by anyone else being a shithead (though it's only me at the moment ).
    Last edited by DigitalChaos; 11-07-2017 at 08:09 PM.

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    you know, i'm a leftist and a liberal.
    but i'm of the mind that gun control measures are NOT going to stop gun violence.
    if i'm not mistaken, the majority of gun crimes are committed with guns that were illegally obtained.

    however, the various agencies involved in information relevant to background checks need to do a better job of communicating with one another.
    why was the Texas church shooter able to buy an assault rifle while having a fucking ridiculous number of red flags?
    He was court martialed for sneaking guns onto the air force base where he was stationed and threatening officers there, he was convicted of some pretty rough domestic violence, he had ESCAPED from a goddamn MENTAL HOSPITAL.
    Shouldn't both the court martial and the domestic violence charges prevent him from buying a gun?

    Of course, he could have just bought weapons illegally, but if the background check had worked right, it would have at least made things a little harder for him.

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