Gun Talk - News, Laws, etc.

[Presideo]

The numbers aren't so hyperbolic, are they?
Gun control is good. I don't know anyone who will disagree with gun control with those numbers. Don't go spreading around insanely flawed data, it discredits you and everyone else trying to make the case.

Are you saying those homicide rates look any better than the yearly deaths by gunshot? Don't kid yourself.

The U.S. had 10,680 more deaths by gunshot last year than Japan.
The U.S has a 3.9% higher homicide rate than Japan.

Either way you say present these facts, they aren't good. But hey, we have a lower homicide rate than Honduras and El Salvador; I guess we should hold our heads high and proud about that fact.

[Sutekh]

Thirdly, that seems to be a pretty small list of countries. Why not any of the others? Hrmm...

Because the information on non-first world democracies wouldn't be pertinent to the point being made

The point is to show America has a problem with guns

By showing the amount of deaths in similar countries, you illustrate how much of an anomaly America is when it comes to this issue

They are all western (or western-style) liberal democracies & make for sensible comparisons... What would be the point of throwing in the numbers for the Democratic republic of Congo? That would be pointless because it would say more about how many people die in a brutal war

Those deaths wouldn't be from private gun ownership, they would be from war, and as such the data is not relevant

The trick is to think about things, and not just clutch at the first chance to dismiss them. If you'd thought about it a bit longer, I'm sure you'd have realised everything I just wrote.

But it is out of date... there's a clue in the name of one of the states

[Deepvoid]

I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sickened by the fact that people are taking advantage of this situation, and using it as an excuse to get riled up about gun control. It's the same routine. Some tragedy like this happens, people get riled up, and two, three weeks later, people forget, except those who actually lost people in the situation. If you think something should happen, please, go out and try to make it happen. Don't become a part of the fad.

Personally though, I really don't think there's much anyone can do to make us safer. I mean, if this guy didn't have a gun, he could have easily done like this guy and used a knife.
http://www.mb.com.ph/articles/385705...na-authorities
What then? Do we call for knife control? Some of you may disagree with me, but still, that doesn't change the fact that everyone should love their friends, family and people in general as much as possible.

Except that none of the kids in China died.

When is it a good time to talk about gun control? Is Tuesday afternoon fine with you?
People that don't wanna talk about control now, don't want to talk about it ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_...ita_by_country

[aggroculture]

"For one segment of American society, guns symbolize honor, human mastery over nature, and individual self-sufficiency. By opposing gun control, individuals affirm the value of these meanings and the vision of the good society that they construct. For another segment of American society, however, guns connote something else: the perpetuation of illicit social hierarchies, the elevation of force over reason, and the expression of collective indifference to the well-being of strangers. These individuals instinctively support gun control as a means of repudiating these significations and of promoting an alternative vision of the good society that features equality, social solidarity, and civilized nonagression.

These competing cultural visions, we will argue, are what drive the gun control debate. They are what dispose individuals to accept certain empirically grounded public-safety arguments and to reject others. Indeed, the meanings that guns and gun control express are sufficient to justify most individuals’ positions on gun control independently of their beliefs about guns and safety. It follows that the only meaningful gun control debate is one that explicitly addresses whether and how the underlying cultural visions at stake should be embodied in American law."

http://boingboing.net/2012/12/14/what-science-says-about-gun-co.html

[DigitalChaos]

Are you saying those homicide rates look any better than the yearly deaths by gunshot? Don't kid yourself.

The U.S. had 10,680 more deaths by gunshot last year than Japan.
The U.S has a 3.9% higher homicide rate than Japan.

Either way you say present these facts, they aren't good. But hey, we have a lower homicide rate than Honduras and El Salvador; I guess we should hold our heads high and proud about that fact.

Yup, I am. After you remove all other forms of death (that the graphic incorrectly calls "murder") and factor in population... the difference is nowhere as large as your image tries to indicate. It's clear you want to hold on to any reason possible to "prove me wrong." You are now venturing into fabrication of my words. At this rate, you will be disagreeing with gun control because I agree with it.

Give it up dude, you've sucked this one dry. Here, I'll give you a new reason to keep ranting your irrational and excessively emotional fallacy... I will even use images and stereotype to keep it on your playing field. have fun!

[Sutekh]

n/m (ten characters)

[DigitalChaos]

Wait what... are you saying the US doesn't have an anomalously high firearm murder rate compared to other first world democracies?

well fine, i will edit out my response too!

[DigitalChaos]

Here is the cliffnotes of the situation:



1- Presideo's numbers:



2- Much more honest interpretation:





3- Presideo: "omg I am so angry, you must like bibles"

[Presideo]

Yup, I am. After you remove all other forms of death (that the graphic incorrectly calls "murder") and factor in population... the difference is nowhere as large as your image tries to indicate. It's clear you want to hold on to any reason possible to "prove me wrong." You are now venturing into fabrication of my words. At this rate, you will be disagreeing with gun control because I agree with it.

You say to factor in country population into the image about gunshot deaths? Ok.

(From Wikipedia)
314,936,000 is the U.S. population.
127,547,000 is the Japanese population.

If I were to double the Japanese population to fit the size of the U.S. population, and also double Japan's deaths by gunshot, that would equal up to 96 deaths. I could even add 1,000 more deaths just for the fuck of it and it still wouldn't come close to that 10,000+ total for the U.S.

The image said nothing about those stats being strictly homicides, and, to my knowledge, it isn't an optical illusion. I'd expect everybody to understand that suicides were a part of that stat. Did it need an asterisk stating that suicides were factored in? No, it should be common sense. If you assumed it was some kind of liberal trickery, that's your fault. Even if all of those gunshot deaths were suicides, it would still be a critical problem brought upon by lax gun laws. The point being made doesn't change.

Also, sorry to offend you by saying that you likely own a bible. I hit way below the belt with that comment. It was insensitive and tasteless for me to even begin to assume that you own both a gun and a bible. I'm sure there's no actual correlation between the two, and to even suggest such a think was a huge misstep on my part. I should stick to posting links for Willy Wonka meme's at an attempt at humor.

Go ahead and post more image macro's, though. They're surprisingly more effective than your words.

[xmd 5a]

Whether raw numbers or standardised rates, fact is the data shows something quite significant.

So the options are:
a) Do nothing, pretend tragedies like these are natural disasters.

b) Stop whinging about reds under the bed and socialist-commie-Nazis and do something, whether that be improving access to healthcare for everyone or instituting gun control (no one's saying outright prohibition is the immediate answer) legislation. Or, ideally, a combination of both

(Or we could keep posting unfunny image macros from the internet's most notorious hive of misogyny, rape apologism and thinly veiled pedophilia...)

[Sutekh]

well fine, i will edit out my response too!

If only you would take a bit more time to think things over & then edit your responses

[Presideo]

And for the record, I personally posted the stats to both those bar charts. I still don't see how the second chart disproves the stats of the first chart - both stats tell the same story.

I'm also not nearly as mad as you think I am. I've been apart of ETS since 2007, and am no stranger to civil, mature debate. But when the Reddit meme's and macro's start popping out, there's really nowhere to go but down.

[DigitalChaos]

suicides

Suicide rates have very little to do with the topic of this thread (Sandy Hook Elementary Shooting) and you didn't include suicide rates of any other countries.

Gun control is going to have very little impact on suicide rates, this makes your goal flawed. This is my entire point: don't use horrible statistics, it discredits you.

Brady campaign actually has a nearly identical image that tries to call suicides "murders" http://i.imgur.com/tbFcj.jpg

[DigitalChaos]

But when the Reddit meme's and macro's start popping out, there's really nowhere to go but down.

Interesting... cause i didnt post any until a few posts back and i posted them very facetiously. I'd say your posts went down hill way before that.

[jessamineny]

I am admittedly interpreting someone else's words, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't believe DigitalChaos is disagreeing that gun control has an effect on homicide rates -- he actually said gun control is good in this post.

It seems he is trying to point out that the "10,000 deaths" graphic that was posted is misleading. For two reasons:
-- It overstates the differences among the countries listed. He doesn't seem to be arguing that there isn't a striking statistical difference. Just that by using total deaths (and including suicides) instead of comparing homicide rates, it looks far more disparate. (That's why he posted those two bar graphs... to show the difference is not so striking, not to prove there isn't a difference or that gun control doesn't have an effect.)
-- That the countries in the graphic were chosen specifically because their gun deaths are so low, which also serves to make the differences seem so striking.

I can see both sides of the second point. I'm not really posting this because I feel like I have a stake in this debate. I just felt like DigitalChaos' points might be getting lost somehow. FWIW

[Presideo]

Suicide rates have very little to do with the topic of this thread (Sandy Hook Elementary Shooting) and you didn't include suicide rates of any other countries.

Nobody committed suicide in the Sandy Hook Elementary Shooting? This is news to me.

Gun control is going to have very little impact on suicide rates, this makes your goal flawed. This is my entire point: don't use horrible statistics, it discredits you.

From a study by the Journal of Trauma - http://bit.ly/UQZnCp (the NY Times also ran an article about the study)

US residents of all ages and both sexes are more likely to die from suicide when they live in areas where more households contain firearms. A positive and significant association exists between levels of household firearm ownership and rates of firearm and overall suicide; rates of nonfirearm suicide were not associated with levels of household firearm ownership.

Interesting... cause i didnt post any until a few posts back and i posted them very facetiously. I'd say your posts went down hill way before that.

Just because I disagree with you and tell you to come up with better ways to support your claim, instead of comparing gun control to Chinese law and '20s-era prohibition, doesn't mean I'm being malicious. I've been very clear and articulate in addressing my criticisms with you. If the bible jab struck a nerve then I honestly apologize. But when you bring meme's and macro's to a serious discussion you're just begging for a derailment.

[DigitalChaos]

I am admittedly interpreting someone else's words, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't believe DigitalChaos is disagreeing that gun control has an effect on homicide rates -- he actually said gun control is good in this post.

It seems he is trying to point out that the "10,000 deaths" graphic that was posted is misleading. For two reasons:
-- It overstates the differences among the countries listed. He doesn't seem to be arguing that there isn't a striking statistical difference. Just that by using total deaths (and including suicides) instead of comparing homicide rates, it looks far more disparate. (That's why he posted those two bar graphs... to show the difference is not so striking, not to prove there isn't a difference or that gun control doesn't have an effect.)
-- That the countries in the graphic were chosen specifically because their gun deaths are so low, which also serves to make the differences seem so striking.

I can see both sides of the second point. I'm not really posting this because I feel like I have a stake in this debate. I just felt like DigitalChaos' points might be getting lost somehow. FWIW

exactly
It's about using sound data to support your stance. Gun control can work when implemented properly. Don't discredit the rest of us by presenting horrible data that is easy to shoot down. We are plagued by shitty data that gets wrapped up into images and goes viral on the internet and even gets on the news. In times like this, people get extra emotional and much less strict about what data they are willing to stand behind. Hell, I saw Rob Sheridan post the exact same thing on twitter before Presideo did and I facepalmed. He is usually pretty good about posting solid statistics.

[Presideo]

Wall of quotes incoming...

(the "10,000 deaths" graphic) overstates the differences among the countries listed. He doesn't seem to be arguing that there isn't a striking statistical difference. Just that by using total deaths (and including suicides) instead of comparing homicide rates, it looks far more disparate. (That's why he posted those two bar graphs... to show the difference is not so striking, not to prove there isn't a difference or that gun control doesn't have an effect.)

Then I guess we differ greatly on what's considered 'striking'. Like I said before, I find a 10,680 difference between gunshot deaths in U.S and Japan to be just as shocking as a 3.9% difference in homicide rate. Even using the chart, the U.S. number is far greater than the others. Since one image seems to be the problem, lets throw it out of the discussion and use the statistics for homicide rate. The facts don't change at all.

That the countries in the graphic were chosen specifically because their gun deaths are so low, which also serves to make the differences seem so striking.

This has also been addressed by me and others...

Because the information on non-first world democracies wouldn't be pertinent to the point being made. The point is to show America has a problem with guns. By showing the amount of deaths in similar countries, you illustrate how much of an anomaly America is when it comes to this issue. They are all western (or western-style) liberal democracies & make for sensible comparisons... What would be the point of throwing in the numbers for the Democratic republic of Congo? That would be pointless because it would say more about how many people die in a brutal war. Those deaths wouldn't be from private gun ownership, they would be from war, and as such the data is not relevant.

I can understand where he's coming from, but the way he's making his points is a total convoluted clusterfuck. There was an equal problem when he compared Chinese law to U.S. law, then stated one post later that he wasn't making the comparison (although he was the only person to bring up China in the first place.)

Not sure if you noticed but, prohibition doesn't work very well in the USA. China also has banned drugs but the USA has LOTS more drug use than China. Unless you want to bring in tons of human rights violations to enforce gun prohibition... it won't be very effective.

Less than one hour later...

I'm not the one making the comparison. I am pointing out how bad it is to compare China and USA laws. and gun control does not equal gun prohibition... Talk about selectively creating a narrative.

[DF118]

And are you saying that hunters who are responsible and have enough sense to keep their guns locked up and unloaded in the house, and who have taught their own children gun safety and responsibility, are child-killers?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Bunch of rednecks teaching their redneck children to shoot things. What a waste of time.

[Sutekh]

Consider my hands thrown up. The point is... there's no point in making things illegal? I understand he's saying that it may be unwise to compare processes in China with those in the USA, as they are very different societies & I concur with that. But what human rights violations would you have to incur to restrict the sales of certain firearms? Specifically?

Also this middle sentence
"China also has banned drugs but the USA has LOTS more drug use than China."

???

The gist of this is ...what? Surely he is saying that prohibition doesn't work the same in every society.

Except he has insisted he's not making that comparison

[DigitalChaos]

Wall of quotes incoming...


Then I guess we differ greatly on what's considered 'striking'. Like I said before, I find a 10,680 difference between gunshot deaths in U.S and Japan to be just as shocking as a 3.9% difference in homicide rate. Even using the chart, the U.S. number is far greater than the others. Since one image seems to be the problem, lets throw it out of the discussion and use the statistics for homicide rate. The facts don't change at all.


This has also been addressed by me and others...



I can understand where he's coming from, but the way he's making his points is a total convoluted clusterfuck. There was an equal problem when he compared Chinese law to U.S. law, then stated one post later that he wasn't making the comparison (although he was the only person to bring up China in the first place.)


Less than one hour later...

I won't deny that the posts may be confusing. I am usually distracted by at least 3 other things when making most posts. Many times via phone.
You are now going back to a totally different topic. I figured most people would read it as "I'm not the one who started making the comparison"


PS - Your bible comment doesn't bother me. I found it hilarious that you continued to try and stereotype with references to loving religion and hating of "liberal" things. You couldn't be further from the truth.

[jessamineny]

Then I guess we differ greatly on what's considered 'striking'. Like I said before, I find a 10,680 difference between gunshot deaths in U.S and Japan to be just as shocking as a 3.9% difference in homicide rate. Even using the chart, the U.S. number is far greater than the others. Since one image seems to be the problem, lets throw it out of the discussion and use the statistics for homicide rate. The facts don't change at all.

He is not arguing the facts (at least when in reference to that graphic). He's arguing, as I said, that he difference is not as striking. He's not saying there isn't a difference. Or even that the difference isn't striking. Look at the two bar charts and see the visual representation of the of the immense proportional difference. That is his point.

[Sutekh]

Yeah he's saying it's bad - but not as bad as some people make out.

They're spreading misinformation to further their sinister agenda of reducing the number of weapons and spree killings in society - those motherfuckers

[DigitalChaos]

Consider my hands thrown up. The point is... there's no point in making things illegal? I understand he's saying that it may be unwise to compare processes in China with those in the USA, as they are very different societies & I concur with that. But what human rights violations would you have to incur to restrict the sales of certain firearms? Specifically?

Also this middle sentence
"China also has banned drugs but the USA has LOTS more drug use than China."

???

The gist of this is ...what? Surely he is saying that prohibition doesn't work the same in every society.

Except he has insisted he's not making that comparison

http://www.echoingthesound.org/commu...1171#post61171

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

[Sutekh]

And what qualities am I incorrectly attributing to you? Not understanding what point you're trying to make is not an Association Fallacy.

[pakkopaita]

The real problem with these shootings is the cops. You'd figure a mob composed of some of our heroic gun owners would be the first at the scene, diligently protecting our great nation and their fellow citizens from tragedy, utilizing all that vigorous training they had and stretching the whole of their mile-wide breadth of knowledge regarding firearms, but wh-whaattt? They're not the First at the scene? Why would they wait for the cops? If your home is broken into, there's no reason to expect you'd have time to call the fuckin' cops. No reason to expect that they would be any quicker to get to a school. The school should have been well stocked with AR-15s in the first place. Were the children not at target practice when the shooter came in with his two, tiny, cute little hand guns? I'm disappointed in you America. You think stuff like this would happen if we just took a little extra time to install firearm safety kits in our school halls? And if we relied a little less on the police and little more on our capable, level-headed, well-trained, background-checked, gun-owning citizens?

[PQHooligan]

^^^ Exactly. I want to read just ONE story of some asshole busting in to a hospital with a rifle and someone busting through a window and yelling 'NO SIR. MY RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS WILL SHOW YOU JUSTICE.'

Guess what?

http://news.yahoo.com/police-kill-gu...161945460.html

Also, this:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1221032

[DigitalChaos]

And what qualities am I incorrectly attributing to you? Not understanding what point you're trying to make is not an Association Fallacy.

none



http://www.echoingthesound.org/commu...1129#post61129
- China
- effective drug prohibition
- USA

[Sutekh]

I honestly don't think you're daft... and without being arrogant, I know I'm smart enough to remember to breathe, so I'm just going to assume there is some irreconcilable difference in the way we respectively communicate

[orestes]

The real problem with these shootings is the cops. You'd figure a mob composed of some of our heroic gun owners would be the first at the scene, diligently protecting our great nation and their fellow citizens from tragedy, utilizing all that vigorous training they had and stretching the whole of their mile-wide breadth of knowledge regarding firearms, but wh-whaattt? They're not the First at the scene? Why would they wait for the cops? If your home is broken into, there's no reason to expect you'd have time to call the fuckin' cops. No reason to expect that they would be any quicker to get to a school. The school should have been well stocked with AR-15s in the first place. Were the children not at target practice when the shooter came in with his two, tiny, cute little hand guns? I'm disappointed in you America. You think stuff like this would happen if we just took a little extra time to install firearm safety kits in our school halls? And if we relied a little less on the police and little more on our capable, level-headed, well-trained, background-checked, gun-owning citizens?

Me thinks you've seen one too many hyper masculine American action movies.