[I am] embarassed by this video/song. I find this music to be loathsome.

[Incendiary Lover]

I wouldn't post in a thread with this title, IF GIVEN A CHOICE. Any dissent will be oppressed cause that's how we roll bitch! Nevermind that a fan actually agrees with the majority of posters, A TRUE FAN will fall in line and throw rotten tomatoes at the first sign of disagreement! Even add a little manufactured hatred for outrage.

The gender differentiation was unnecessary. Who doesn't know that Paul Banks is a man and Mariqueen is a woman? Bringing up her genitalia, then, only served to belittle her related to her gender. Sure, it was more subtle than the "Trent's pet project for his wifey" cracks, but nevertheless it only adds to the pile of gender-specific belittling she gets.

You've just described sexism, not misogyny. While I respectfully disagree, I see how Presideos statement could be misinterpreted.

And just because there's worse shit on the board (that I, and others, don't see and call people out for) doesn't make this instance OK. C'mon.

My comment about examples of woman hating on this board was in no way meant as justification, rather it was intended as a frame of reference. While there are certainly instances of misogyny here, imo this isn't one of them.

This isn't meant as an attack whatsoever, I made the comment because it seems there is a bit of defensiveness when posters offer a different opinion. Not necessarily directed at you, jessamineny, but Presideo posted a thought out opinion adding to the dialog. Differing opinions don't need to be suppressed, and they shouldn't be taken personally.

[aggroculture]

Just to add on top of what @jessamineny said This just reeks of sexism, in one of Trent's first videos, he was half naked and spinning, and has used sexuality and appearance in pretty much all of his projects (does he have a neck anymore?). Then you act like she is not even in the band: "they" put her up front, as though TR/AR/RS are the band and Q is just guest vocals. If you treat a woman fronting a band differently to a man, you're sexist. Again, you're acting like this is Trent's band. Not liking her vocals is one thing (no one likes everything) but acting like your opinion is a fact, and that her vocals are not exactly what YOU want from whatever you think this band should be is being arrogant.
You are on a fucking HTDA board. Expect fans of HTDA to be here.

When I say "they" I mean the whole band and whoever else around them that makes the decisions, including "Q". You are reading into it that I only mean the dudes. I think it's pretty sexist they put the hot woman up front and the other guys barely appear in the video. Like when Evanescence put a big pic of Amy Lee's face on the cover of their first album. You say I'm the one acting like she's not in the band. Yet here it looks like it's the dudes who are the ones treating the woman differently, separating themselves from her in the video. And yes, Trent has also sold himself as sexual object too. I am not averse to that per se: sometimes it's more tastefully done than others. I would have to go back and watch to give you an updated opinion on that, and maybe I will.
I am not acting like my opinion is fact (it's just my opinion, worth nothing after all), but you are having a knee-jerk reaction. Also, why does this have to be "a fucking HTDA board"? Why can't it be just a plain old "HDTA board"? Or rather, a HTDA forum on a NIN board? Fans can discuss bands without getting bent out of shape and calling people bigots if they have certain criticisms to bring to the table.

[Presideo]

I have no problem with you criticizing her vocals, especially since you actually put some thought into it. I have no idea if I agree with you -- I haven't listened to 4/6 of the EP (I'm holding out for the LP). But there was no reason to add in the "and a vagina" cracks except to be vulgar and demean her as a woman. It wasn't funny. It was hateful.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't your avatar a shopped image of Reznor autographing the ass-cheeks of women lined up doggystyle? Maybe you shouldn't be the foremost authority when it comes to whats considered hateful rhetoric towards women...

The vagina comment was a quip I used to add levity to 280 words of straightforward criticism. I certainly didn't mean to imply that penis > vagina, and still don't understand how it could be misconstrued as misogynous. I even went out of my way to reaffirm that it was a joke one sentence later. If you didn't care for the joke, that's cool. But stating that a woman has a vagina isn't hateful. Unwarranted? Sure. Hateful? Nope

Also, sorry for spreading misinformation about Mariqueen's involvement (or lack thereof) in the Immigrant Song cover. I can't help but wonder, though…if Fincher personally chose Karen O to do the cover, doesn't that mean that he chose her over Mariqueen? He chose HTDA for the slow ballad, but decided to only get 2/3 of HTDA for the energetic rocker? I wonder why…maybe he wanted an Immigrant Song cover without a heaping pile of deadpan with a side of stagnant.

[jessamineny]

I also let men beat me. I'm complicated.

[my voice just]

are you a feminist?

[sheepdean]

I think it's pretty sexist they put the hot woman up front and the other guys barely appear in the video.

The frontperson of the band and the lead singer is pretty much always the front of the band, regardless of their appearance. And of course, some people just prefer not being in the spotlight (Rob and Atticus appear far less than Trent).

Also, why does this have to be "a fucking HTDA board"? Why can't it be just a plain old "HDTA board"? Or rather, a HTDA forum on a NIN board? Fans can discuss bands without getting bent out of shape and calling people bigots if they have certain criticisms to bring to the table.

My usage of fucking was as a modifier, you're being intentionally facetious. And you still seem to think being called bigoted is because you had negative criticism, rather than, you know, the sexism.

Also, sorry for spreading misinformation about Mariqueen's involvement (or lack thereof) in the Immigrant Song cover. I can't help but wonder, though…if Fincher personally chose Karen O to do the cover, doesn't that mean that he chose her over Mariqueen? He chose HTDA for the slow ballad, but decided to only get 2/3 of HTDA for the energetic rocker? I wonder why…maybe he wanted an Immigrant Song cover without a heaping pile of deadpan with a side of stagnant.

I cba to find the quote (I will if you REALLY want), but basically Fincher was listening to his iPod, Led Zep came on and he decided about then that he wanted a female voiced cover, and decided he wanted someone who sounds like Karen O. Even if Mariqueen is Fincher's all time favourite singer, she doesn't sound like Karen O, so obviously he'd chose Karen over Q for the song if he wanted that sound - and don't forget both TR and AR are married to female singers, I don't see anyone saying Claudia Sarne got snubbed for it.

[aggroculture]

The frontperson of the band and the lead singer is pretty much always the front of the band, regardless of their appearance. And of course, some people just prefer not being in the spotlight (Rob and Atticus appear far less than Trent). My usage of fucking was as a modifier, you're being intentionally facetious. And you still seem to think being called bigoted is because you had negative criticism, rather than, you know, the sexism.

I'm sexist because I'm noting how a band puts their female singer's pretty face at the front, and asks you to focus on that? OK sure. It's done all the time, that must make it alright. Quite frankly I expect more from TR than such old hat moves. The guy is known for shaking things up, not going along with the Joneses.
You say it's my prejudice that sees "Q" as lacking in agency. I say nothing I've heard from or about HDTA has made me feel otherwise. I feel her presence within the music, and her vocals in general, are quite passive, submissive even. She seems here to add a pretty voice/face to these guys' music. I don't get the sense of her being an equal here, no. I wish I did.

[Leviathant]

I think you are being weird, dude.

I'm sexist because I'm noting how a band puts their female singer's pretty face at the front, and asks you to focus on that?

Bands feature lead singers, whether they are pretty or ugly.

OK sure. It's done all the time, that must make it alright.

I can't find any posts from you complaining about Josh Homme's face being featured in all the QOTSA videos and photos. Or the way Bono's always got his mug up front for U2. Quick - name all the members of The Cure.

I feel her presence within the music, and her vocals in general, are quite passive, submissive even.

See, this is where it starts getting weird. You think she's a submissive and passive pretty face, a lesser member of the band than the men. That's you. Maybe you'll be able to step outside your bubble at some point and see just how weird this all sounds, but the more you talk, the more it sounds like you're being really negative about the singer in a band primarily because she's not a dude. I know that's not how you think you see it. I don't know, maybe you do rant about dudes who sing in a band but aren't worthy of their band members because they're not dominant and rough enough for you.

[BRoswell]

Jesus Christ...is this really a point of discussion right now? I'll just go ahead and say what I'm thinking instead of sugar coating it: Even though I'm a man, I find the insinuation that Trent put Mariqueen at the front of the band simply for "window dressing" disgusting. A few people act like the only possible reason Trent put together How To Destroy Angels was to appease the whims of his demanding wife who wanted to be a star, and that really annoys me. Are we really to believe that a guy like Trent would stoop so low? Please. If you don't like the music, fine, but those kind of accusations are really idiotic.

[allegro]

Edit: Never mind, this thread is full of the same old Reznor-inspired goofiness that's been around for 20 years.

[r_z]

Wow, how did you guys get here? This still is NOT and NEVER WAS about Mariqueen being a woman or marsian or whatever. It's about her vocal abilities as a lead singer, which are often (rightly?) critisized (here, as well as in various reviews I've read about the EP/band).

[aggroculture]

the more you talk, the more it sounds like you're being really negative about the singer in a band primarily because she's not a dude.

Well I love Garbage. I think Shirley Manson is great, very talented. I never feel she's playing second fiddle to the others. But she is quite dominant and rough, I guess.
I also like Snake River Conspiracy, where Tobey Torres was totally Jason Slater's window-dressing. But they made a great record together.
I was saying I think Mariqueen isn't a very good singer, and I question TR's motives for working with her: this extends to my opinions on the video. However I understand this isn't the right thing to be saying in this thread. There's really no point but here goes anyway: if Josh Homme had a boyfriend and started a band with him, and I thought this boyfriend wasn't very good, I would also question that choice. I hope that wouldn't make me a homophobe.

Are we really to believe that a guy like Trent would stoop so low?

I don't know what you mean by that. "A guy like Trent"? I feel I am up against some serious TR worship here. I feel out of my depth. Trent is fallible, and (to me) HDTA represents some kind of a lapse of judgment.

An aside: Mariqueen's NINwiki says "Reznor and Ross worked on the music while Maandig wrote lyrics and vocal melodies, with Reznor and Ross offering guidance on how to make them fit with the music." I don't know who wrote that...but it doesn't inspire much confidence in HDTA.

[sheepdean]

I think the photo of Atticus might actually from Ice Age, before it was heavily edited in post-production. Take a look at the video just past 5:45. There's a sequence of Atticus that looks like it could be from the same scene as the above photo -- just made nearly unrecognizable because of the special effects. (The photo also has walls and a beamed ceiling that look like the cabin.)

I see what you mean, but the angle of the camera and a few other things seem wrong. Maybe I'm being hopeful :P

An aside: Mariqueen's NINwiki says "Reznor and Ross worked on the music while Maandig wrote lyrics and vocal melodies, with Reznor and Ross offering guidance on how to make them fit with the music." I don't know who wrote that...but it doesn't inspire much confidence in HDTA.

Hm, I think that was reference to a Wired article about how one track was written. I'll try to reword that or something.

[BRoswell]

Wow, how did you guys get here? This still is NOT and NEVER WAS about Mariqueen being a woman or marsian or whatever. It's about her vocal abilities as a lead singer, which are often (rightly?) critisized (here, as well as in various reviews I've read about the EP/band).

If this were true, I'd have no problem with anything being said here. It's not though. I've seen more than enough people here and in other places imply that she's just a pretty face whose sole reason for being in the band is because she's Trent's wife. It's "Yoko Ono-ing" of the worst kind. Like I said, I have no issue with anyone who just doesn't care for the music on display here, but to single her out as the only issue, and not JUST for her singing ability, is flat out wrong.

Well I love Garbage. I think Shirley Manson is great, very talented. I never feel she's playing second fiddle to the others. But she is quite dominant and rough, I guess.
I also like Snake River Conspiracy, where Tobey Torres was totally Jason Slater's window-dressing. But they made a great record together.
I was saying I think Mariqueen isn't a very good singer, and I question TR's motives for working with her: this extends to my opinions on the video. However I understand this isn't the right thing to be saying in this thread. There's really no point but here goes anyway: if Josh Homme had a boyfriend and started a band with him, and I thought this boyfriend wasn't very good, I would also question that choice. I hope that wouldn't make me a homophobe.

See, this is my problem right here. You don't think she's a very good singer. That's cool. I disagree, but that's cool. But then you have to go and fuck it all up by saying "I question TR's motives for working with her." So you really think Trent would make up a band, go through the whole hassle of writing, recording and self promoting their first set of songs, spend two years working on a new set of songs, go back to a record company and hire high profile directors to do their music videos just because he's afraid of sleeping on the couch? People do crazy things for love, sure, but let's be real here.

I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous notion, and that has nothing to do with "hero worship" either. Trent is not a flawless individual, but to imply...fuck it...to flat out state that How To Destroy Angels exists simply to please Trent's wife and that she's nothing but a pretty face to sell shitty music is rather insulting, not just to him, not just to Mariqueen, but to people who actually enjoy the music as well.

Also, saying that you like a band with a female singer doesn't make what you're saying any less ridiculous. Since you brought up homophobia, it's kind of like saying homophobic things, then going around and saying "But I have plenty of gay friends!". Whether or not you have those friends, or enjoy those bands, you're still saying something that, to a lot of people, sounds awful.

[Leviathant]

@aggroculture , when you give an example of a band that you like that is fronted by a woman that you consider "window dressing", you are not really helping to change the perception that your opinions have a sexist slant. Additionally, while we're talking about how you keep saying sexist things, you reply with "Geez guys lay off the TR worship" - you're continuing to miss the message here. Lord knows if Trent Reznor wanted to defend his wife from sexist posts on the internet, he'd just stop by and do exactly that. I don't believe that anyone here is retorting out of deference to the woman Trent Reznor married. I can't speak for anyone else, but where I come from in my replies is that you're showing a poor attitude towards women, full stop. And there was also that bit where you were like, "So I haven't listened to the EP and I didn't read the thread but here's my opinion" which was kind of a bad start.

P.S. without looking, tell me who's in the Cure. Who's in The Police? Or The Doors?

[Leviathant]

Whoops, didn't mean to lock this.

[Incendiary Lover]

Wow! Nice fucking split. Totally dig the title too.

Was this really the best way to deal with aggro's inappropriate comments? Fuck.

* edit Any other time this would be as despicable as a witch hunt. I would be screaming about censorship! Given that I actually agree with the majority opinion in the parent thread... its inexplicable.

[Leviathant]

Wow! Nice fucking split. Totally dig the title too.

Was this really the best way to deal with aggro's inappropriate comments? Fuck.

The thread was split where it started to go off-topic. You'll note that the original thread was about An Omen, and this discussion centers specifically on Ice Age, and that aggroculture began with "I don't own this EP" - which, really, in a thread about the EP, that's how to start? The title of the thread was taken from the text of the post. If you'd like to talk about how you think I should moderate the forum, there's a reports & suggestions subforum for that.

I'd be happy to split your post off into a new one there if you'd like. If I did, the title would be "Was this really the best way to deal with aggro's inappropriate comments?" and I would link back to this thread. That's how I do these things.

[Magtig]

Let's be honest, the most vile kinds of sexism have been oozing out of the nin community from both men and women ever since Yok... I mean MQ came and snatched Trent away from the person he truly belongs to: you. It's funny how few of these arguments seem to take MQ's point of view into account. I wonder what it's like to be hated/dismissed/etc just because you married someone who people think they know.

If this is really all about the music, then why did MQ's vagina and looks ever enter the conversation? If this is all about the music then how are Trent's motivations relevant? Shouldn't it still just be about the music in either case (positive or negative)?

[Incendiary Lover]

Hopefully, that isn't directed at me. Really trying not to be defensive in this instance, but I'm certainly not questioning anyone's judgement or dismissing the music. I'm a fan of the music and never once brought up anyone's appearance...

Well, Magtig is still a fucking Troll. Quite the imagination too

[Magtig]

It's not directed at anyone in particular. It's something that I've been noticing ever since people became aware of Trent and Mariqueen's relationship.

[Fixer808]

It's easier these days to send death threats to your favourite celebrity's spouse. "@TheRealLindaMcCartney bich I hate u ur gonna dye for takin are PAUL AWAY"

[JessicaSarahS]

Soo.... how bout that new video?

[Madmya]

Her gender is not an irrelevance. To me part of Presideo's point was how How To Destroy Angels make cheap use of her femininity and good looks: they put her up front, visibly exploiting her appearance, and seem to be hoping it will all work out. I think TR's lack of objectivity regarding MM is a major point here: he didn't release Tapeworm because it wasn't "good enough." And this is good enough? Sounds like MM doesn't seem to have what it takes to front a band. TR has range - (listen to the massive diversity of vocals on TDS) - but beyond range he has had a lot of creativity with regards to his vocals and brought a whole new range of tricks to what it means to be a vocalist in a heavy rock/industrial band. His vocals have character, intensity, passion, wit. MM is a very mundane vocalist. There is nothing new or interesting to me here. When she sings "I feel the wind is growing colder every day" - for example, here we have not only a cliched lyric, but nothing done to it, in terms of performance, that would redeem the cliche. TR's lyrics are full of cliche, but his vocal delivery often transcends and transforms them into something convincing and compelling.
Also, I wish we could discuss HDTA here without some people feeling the need to aggressively defend the band. Why can't you argue your case without resorting to defending the artists? TR, or MM, do not need internet defenders.



Paul Banks is a great vocalist. I think he does wonders with his flat, monotone style. To me he's like a robot Frank Sinatra.

That's not how I saw it at all. I saw it as Trent not wanting this band to be about him, for it to be on its own merit. No idea why you'd bring her looks into it.

The music doesn't really cater for Mariqueen to really go nuts either. It's moody/atmospheric, screaming/wailing simply wouldn't fit. Her voice is beautiful though.

Having said all this, not a huge fan of the EP. I preferred the first one. Still, I look forward to the album.

[allegro]

@aggroculture - for what it's worth, I don't like HTDA. I tried, but it's not my kind of music. And I'm ok with that. And I ignore this part of the forum 99.9% of the time.

BUT, I also hated Year Zero and that Saul Williams album. And I didn't try to find somebody or something to "blame."

Oy, @Fixer808 , I accidentally facepalmed your post because I was trying to read via Tapatalk without my glasses.

[NotoriousTIMP]

Ah, this reminds me of the old ETS.

Say something out of line = everyone gets out their pitchforks and torches!

*turns off thread notifications*

[FernandoDante]

Why was this split into a separate thread? So we can point and laugh at a different opinion?

[snaapz]

If you are struggling with the video then try looking at it from a different perspective.

Watch it again and question everything you see, even in the shadows... Why are the side windows boarded up from the inside? Why are the bodies burning away and not the surrounding? Is there really an ocean? etc...

[jessamineny]

Why was this split into a separate thread? So we can point and laugh at a different opinion?

I know you're not genuinely asking, but I'll point you in the right direction anyway.

http://www.echoingthesound.org/commu...9101#post59101

[aggroculture]

What a mess.

Well, I'll try and explain my position one more time, for those who care. My post about the video was a follow-up to Presideo's remark "The video is even more obnoxious: M singing to a window sill while three middle-aged men dabble with cool-looking instruments." If I were to do a more detailed reading of the video, I would probably use Laura Mulvey's concept of the "male gaze": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaze#Th...eminist_theory in which she argues that cinema objectifies women for straight male viewing pleasure/power. Perhaps Mulvey's critique is dated, and ends up colluding with the very objectification it seeks to critique, in understating - or even erasing - female agency. This is pretty much the critique Sheepdean levelled at me: that with my words I was erasing Mariqueen from the band, and saying she has no agency. The way I see it, I was critiquing the video for doing that. MMR (does this acronym work better than "MM"?) is foregrounded, and - classic objectifying trope - "framed" by a window. The viewer is invited to gaze at her as an object of beauty. While the men get on with the "serious business" of playing the music in the background. Sheepdean said "If you treat a woman fronting a band differently to a man, you're sexist." My point is that the video is treating her differently to a man. Let's say HDTA was a project with Matt Bellamy: do you really think they would have made this video like this? Matt Bellamy in the front singing, with the dudes behind in the shadows? I don't think so. When you say "let's leave her looks and gender out of this, and only talk about the music" - I beg to differ. MMR is an attractive woman and the presentation of the band has “treated her differently.” If the band were really so interested in you taking them seriously as a band, maybe going about this video in the way they have wasn’t the best strategy.

Leviathant's point is that male and female singers are foregrounded alike. It's a fair point: pop music in general discriminates in favour of attractive people, of both genders. But to say that the music industry objectifies male and female singers in the same way is disingenuous. Female singers represent themselves and are represented in a far more sexualized light. I brought up Garbage as an example of a band in which the female singer doesn't play second fiddle to the others: yes, Shirley Manson is young and attractive, the other guys in the band not so much. But I feel from the very outset she was aware of the position she was in, and proved that she was not there as eye/ear candy. I feel MMR has yet to do this: maybe she will, but given what has come so far I doubt it.

Broswell made a point about "Yoko Ono-ing." This refers to another sexist narrative: a man is seduced from his correct path ("staying in the Beatles") by a bewitching woman who lures him away into sin and damnation ("breaking up the Beatles"). I don't think this is what I'm saying. What I think I'm saying is closer to the following. That since he loves her, maybe TR isn't particularly objective about MMR's talents. Maybe he thinks she's a better singer than she is because he loves her. This isn't so much an issue of sexism. More an issue of nepotism: when Eddie Van Halen hired his teenage son as Van Halen's new bassist - I don't give a shit about VH btw - my eyebrows went up. We're more indulgent towards the ones we love, and less forgiving of their shortcomings. That's what I see happening here. I never said anything about “sleeping on the couch” that was your straw man.

As to why the video made me queasy (beyond the framed woman issue I detailed above), this is trickier for me to articulate. TR is no stranger to putting his autobiography into his music. And HDTA is no different in that regard. Formerly he was miserable and angsty, now he's all about domestic bliss and babies. Happiness is a very difficult topic to put into art, and to me the Ice Age video illustrates this problem. Great art is not and has never been about expressions of happiness: it’s a cliché but it’s true. Domestic bliss has never been the catalyst for great art. TR adores his wife - and wants the world to share his feelings. But I may beg to differ. The video creates this cozy picture of a house in which the two of them (and friends) weather from the cold harsh outside world. I feel being asked to share in this kind of intimacy troubling. Why? Because TR is “mine” and he’s not allowed to be happy? Maybe there is a bit of that, sure. Since I’m trying to be honest about my feelings here, maybe this is in part about feeling possessive, as a fan, about “my Trent.” The critic in me – they are obviously inextricable – cringes at what HDTA is. I feel it’s hubristic in a way, a kind of showing off of TR’s good fortune. Aesthetically I find this song/video corny and twee. I’ve been listening to the EP – and it seems to me like a bunch of Ghosts-style tracks with Mariqueen’s vocals. So much for this being a band of equals.

As far as equality goes - from a career point of view TR and MMR are not equals. TR has been floating this type of project for a while now (I remember an interview, I’m sure at least a decade old, in which he talked about wanting to do a project with an “icy” female vocalist). I would have much rathered TR had hooked up with someone more his equal, career-wise: a Fiona Apple or Tori Amos. Somebody with more input, and more to say. Somebody less pliable perhaps. That would have interested me a lot more. Here I see an unequal relationship: TR is the older, more experienced artist, working with a young, beautiful muse. And holding her up for the world to see. If this isn’t a patriarchal-type set-up I’m not sure what it is. In saying this I don’t mean to rob MMR of her agency – her agency is in plain view: she’s there because she wants to be there. But none of us would know who she is, if she wasn’t Mrs. Reznor. In academia this is called a “spousal hire.” I guess what I would have liked here is some kind of recognition from the band of this situation by having them work around it in clever, witty, creative ways. Instead I feel they are the ones in a bubble, oblivious as to how HDTA may come across.

Anyway, these are some of my thoughts. If you still see sexist assumptions here, I’d be glad that you point them out, as I am genuinely interested in listening, and learning.

/TL DR