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Thread: Vinyl Rereleases December 2016 (Broken, TDS, TF)

  1. #451
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    It doesn't say limited anywhere. I bet they'll restock.

  2. #452
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    I didn't end up buying PHM on nin.com, but I wandered into a local record store today, and they had the Bicycle remaster for $30 Canadian for a new copy. Canadian dollar is crap right now, so that's a score in my books! no conversion or shipping to worry about.

  3. #453
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    Has anyone mentioned that the panning glitch at the beginning of Heresy's finally been fixed in this Definitive Version? Because it has, and I noticed.

  4. #454
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    I'd love to read a summary of all the little things. I hadn't seen that heresy thing mentioned yet.

  5. #455
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    by the way: the fragile is still available at the UK store. unfortunately more expensive. the same for several other vinyl(s).

  6. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post
    Has anyone mentioned that the panning glitch at the beginning of Heresy's finally been fixed in this Definitive Version? Because it has, and I noticed.
    Oh God Odin Buddha FINALLY.
    That glitch made me crazy in 94 and it was even more frustrating when the DE was released.

  7. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conan The Barbarian View Post
    Wow. Do people really have nothing better to do than audio-analyze every fucking piece of music they hear, and then run straight to the internet to bitch about it? FFS, overthinking things much?

    Are people's lives really that affected by this shit? I listen to the digital files of the new remasters (on excellent headphones) and I have no complaints whatsoever.

    Some people seriously just bitch to bitch. Go get a new set of ears then, if you're such a victim of this brickwall compression conspiracy.

    I can't imagine what kind of life that must be, where you're not happy with anything you're hearing..

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    Converting down to 44.1/16 seems to cause shitloads of clipping when I look at the waveform in Audacity but only for Broken and TDS. The Fragile and The Fragile Deviations 1 files only show the occasional bit of clipping. Is this normal when downconverting files or am I doing something horribly wrong.

    (Also for anyone curious, I'm doing this so I can put them on my phone - gonna use the source files on my computer still)

  9. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disassociative View Post
    Converting down to 44.1/16 seems to cause shitloads of clipping when I look at the waveform in Audacity but only for Broken and TDS. The Fragile and The Fragile Deviations 1 files only show the occasional bit of clipping. Is this normal when downconverting files or am I doing something horribly wrong.

    (Also for anyone curious, I'm doing this so I can put them on my phone - gonna use the source files on my computer still)
    What program are you using? You can pad the tracks down 1dB to add some headroom and give the converter a little leeway.

  10. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by botley View Post
    What program are you using? You can pad the tracks down 1dB to add some headroom and give the converter a little leeway.
    Happens with foobar2000, iTunes and dBpoweramp. But I'll do what you suggest and try lowering the volume a little with one of the DSPs. Also apparantly you're meant to perform dithering when downsampling a 24 bit file to a 16 bit one? Or that's what some people have been saying when I google that. Would you know anything about that at all?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYRexall View Post
    Wow. Do people really have nothing better to do than audio-analyze every fucking piece of music they hear, and then run straight to the internet to bitch about it? FFS, overthinking things much?

    Are people's lives really that affected by this shit? I listen to the digital files of the new remasters (on excellent headphones) and I have no complaints whatsoever.

    Some people seriously just bitch to bitch. Go get a new set of ears then, if you're such a victim of this brickwall compression conspiracy.

    I can't imagine what kind of life that must be, where you're not happy with anything you're hearing..
    Here's the most interesting comment in that thread:

    "Everything through the fragile was tracked to 2" and then dumped into the digital realm at 16 bit. "

    In other words, the poster is saying that all NIN albums up to and including The Fragile were recorded analog. I always assumed they were recorded digitally (since that was quite common by the late 80's/early 90's and Trent seems to have always been pretty tech-centric). That would explain how we just got 24 bit 96 kHz files. (If they were recorded digitally they probably would have been 16 bit 44.1-48 kHz based on the time period.)

    Anybody know more about this?
    Last edited by sleepless; 12-24-2016 at 07:56 AM.

  12. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disassociative View Post
    Happens with foobar2000, iTunes and dBpoweramp. But I'll do what you suggest and try lowering the volume a little with one of the DSPs. Also apparantly you're meant to perform dithering when downsampling a 24 bit file to a 16 bit one? Or that's what some people have been saying when I google that. Would you know anything about that at all?
    I'm no audio engineer, but the Wikipedia page on dithering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither#Digital_audio) helped me understand the concept. I assume (maybe someone more knowledgeable can confirm) that audio conversion software like dBpoweramp dithers as part of the downconversion from 24 bit to 16 bit.

  13. #463
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    @Disassociative You can add dithering as an option in dBpoweramp, yes. For best results use Triangular dither when going from 24-bit to 16-bit.

    Sorry for the double post. Pedantry incoming:
    Last edited by botley; 12-24-2016 at 08:10 AM.

  14. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepless View Post
    Here's the most interesting comment in that thread:

    "Everything through the fragile was tracked to 2" and then dumped into the digital realm at 16 bit. "

    In other words, the poster is saying that all NIN albums up to and including The Fragile were recorded analog. I always assumed they were recorded digitally (since that was quite common by the late 80's/early 90's and Trent seems to have always been pretty tech-centric). That would explain how we just got 24 bit 96 kHz files. (If they were recorded digitally they probably would have been 16 bit 44.1-48 kHz based on the time period.)

    Anybody know more about this?
    In the 90s they would track to analogue tape because that was the professional standard, but much of NIN's post-production was done in a computer. Starting with The Fragile computers began to replace the tape machine but much of the signal chain was still analogue (including mixing on an SSL 4000G+ console).

    Mastering is usually also done with analogue gear and they captured Tom Baker's remasters for the new Definitive Editions at 24/96 regardless of the source.
    Last edited by botley; 12-26-2016 at 08:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYRexall View Post
    Wow. Do people really have nothing better to do than audio-analyze every fucking piece of music they hear
    I have an honest question. Is it the fact that the people (I know I'm one) analyze every fucking piece of music, or is it the complaining? I personally try to post information and keep the bitching out of it.

    As far as overanalyzing, I think putting NIN through a DR meter is a bit silly (and of course inaccurate). But whatever, I was just curious because I know some people just roll their eyes when they see a DR table or spectrogram.

  16. #466
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    If anybody is feeling generous with their downloads, I'd love to be able to compare these, but I'm really not in a position right now to invest in or even listen to vinyl
    Last edited by MrSlfDstruct; 12-24-2016 at 09:55 AM.

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    Listened to The Fragile Definitive Edition last night and fell in love with this album all over again. I'm listening to Deviations right now and it's making me appreciate even more what is without a doubt NIN's magnum opus. It's such a dense, lush, emotional, and beautiful album.

  18. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepless View Post
    I'm no audio engineer, but the Wikipedia page on dithering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dither#Digital_audio) helped me understand the concept. I assume (maybe someone more knowledgeable can confirm) that audio conversion software like dBpoweramp dithers as part of the downconversion from 24 bit to 16 bit.
    Looks like I was not totally correct. The default batch convert settings in dBpoweramp do not include dithering. It seems the optimum way to down-convert 24 bit 96 kHz to 16 bit 44.1 kHz is to leave the Bit Depth and Sample Rate settings in the main window "as source" but then under DSP Effects add Resample first (and select 44100) and then add Bit Depth second (and select Fixed 16 bit and Apply Dither Triangular TPDF).

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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepless View Post
    Looks like I was not totally correct. The default batch convert settings in dBpoweramp do not include dithering. It seems the optimum way to down-convert 24 bit 96 kHz to 16 bit 44.1 kHz is to leave the Bit Depth and Sample Rate settings in the main window "as source" but then under DSP Effects add Resample first (and select 44100) and then add Bit Depth second (and select Fixed 16 bit and Apply Dither Triangular TPDF).
    Didn't see your first post, you got it correct here.

  20. #470
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    Just curious:

    Why not include +Appendage or (With Decay) on the "definitive edition" of the The Fragile. Confused...

    The "definitive" version should've removed Starfuckers, Inc.

  21. #471
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    ^Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think Trent was saying these are the absolute definitive versions of these albums, just that they are the "definitive" vinyl pressings of these albums, in terms of packaging, sound quality and presentation? So that makes sense that the songs and formatting would be identical to the previous vinyl pressings.

    The digital downloads included with vinyl purchases seem like just a bonus. If those were intended to be the definitive versions of the actual albums, then they would probably be all over digital stores/streaming media as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    I have an honest question. Is it the fact that the people (I know I'm one) analyze every fucking piece of music, or is it the complaining? I personally try to post information and keep the bitching out of it.
    Heh. That post I made last night was a little psychotic, perhaps. I'm laughing about it today though.

    Honestly, I think it has more to do with people on the internet just whining in general about TR's output in the last decade. I don't care either way if someone prefers one album but dislikes another, or doesn't believe something like Year Zero is as revelatory as I do.

    It's the constant bitching on the internet (not here) every time there's a new release: Trent went pussy on Hes. Marks...his film score stuff is too quiet...Year Zero was a mess...he sounds like Fall Out Boy on The Slip...this new EP sounds lazy and uninspired, and it's too loud...

    I'm sorry...which Trent Reznor are these people hoping for? The Purest Feeling TR? We've been screaming for years about hi-def album remasters and now we're going to bitch about those too?

    It's fucking ridiculous. I think a lot of people just put way too much thought into this whole audio thing. If everything is being made so wrong, then go be a world class audio engineer and save us all, FFS. I'm willing to bet 3/4 of the dipshits complaining about the new EP/reissues didn't even put a dime toward them to begin with.

    None of this is a slight towards anyone here, either. Dudes like @botley and @neorev clearly have a grasp on this shit and always seem willing to explain it in a way those who don't can understand, without acting like elitist dicks about it.

    That guy in the reddit thread? I hope he loses sleep over it, keeps wasting his time on music he can't sit through, and loses his girlfriend due to his little schoolboy bitching. That's all I got out of that whole thing..

  23. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leviathant View Post
    Has anyone mentioned that the panning glitch at the beginning of Heresy's finally been fixed in this Definitive Version? Because it has, and I noticed.

    Is this something I'm going to have to listen to with headphones to notice? What exactly was the glitch?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrselfdestruct94 View Post
    Listened to The Fragile Definitive Edition last night and fell in love with this album all over again. I'm listening to Deviations right now and it's making me appreciate even more what is without a doubt NIN's magnum opus. It's such a dense, lush, emotional, and beautiful album.
    I feel the same way. Audio bliss from beginning to end, making me appreciate the Fragile experience so much more. It took me a long time to really appreciate that album for the masterpiece it's known as, but I'm finally there with everyone else on it. TF really is his opus.

    Never once was I sitting there thinking "Who the hell mastered this crap? I can't wait for this song to end so I can go on reddit and stress how this mastering job has ruined my life.."

  25. #475
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    It's interesting to me that the vinyl version of the fragile has been blessed as definitive, when the CD mix started out that way. How times change. For a long time I had the vinyl mix on my player but I switched back to the CD recently out of curiosity.

  26. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pbgut View Post
    Here's the original CD of The Wretched: (http://imgur.com/a/PRaog)
    And here's the remaster:
    (http://imgur.com/a/Vne3H)

    I definitely noticed it on this song. NIN's stuff has always been brickwalled (going back to Broken, before it was necessarily the norm to do a loudness war thing, so it was an artistic choice), but this seems to lose even the slightly quieter parts. Not sure what I was expecting given the 'audiophile master' problems with Hesitation Marks, but I was kinda hoping for a straight vinyl master (I read some bands have done that, though I realize the stereo image of the lower bass frequencies gets kind of screwed with for vinyl, so ...). Anyway, I bought it for the vinyl, not for this, so I'm not too upset.
    Actually, your screenshots only serve to illustrate why the Fragile remaster is better than the original. I listened to the Fragile CD version not long ago and I had noticed slight clipping and overcompression artifacts on its loud moments. Not to mention, its peaks are all over the fucking place. On the CD screenshot of The Wretched, do you see that there is a slight cutoff at the peaks? This doesn't happen on the 2016 version. I'm listening to it with pro-grade headphones and sound card and I cannot hear any clipping. Yes, it is slightly louder and more compressed than the original, but they didn't just boost the old master. They remastered it properly using the original elements. They managed to do in 2016 what they couldn't do in 1999. The noisy ending of No, You Don't is a terrific example of this. And the fact that it's 24/96 is just the very, very, very small tip of the iceberg. And some subtle details are better defined and brought up in the mix without cluttering the loud parts. Somehow, it feels like I'm listening to it for the very first time.

    Believe me, I'm always the first person to bitch about overcompression, the loudness war, lost dynamic range... I'm all over that audiophile shit. And yet, I'm having no issues with the 2016 remaster. I really, really LOVE how it sounds and how it does The Fragile's dense soundscapes justice. Don't just judge it by its waveform. Crank it up. Then, crank up the original CD. You'll see what I mean.

  27. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by wizfan View Post
    Actually, your screenshots only serve to illustrate why the Fragile remaster is better than the original. I listened to the Fragile CD version not long ago and I had noticed slight clipping and overcompression artifacts on its loud moments. Not to mention, its peaks are all over the fucking place. On the CD screenshot of The Wretched, do you see that there is a slight cutoff at the peaks? This doesn't happen on the 2016 version. I'm listening to it with pro-grade headphones and sound card and I cannot hear any clipping. Yes, it is slightly louder and more compressed than the original, but they didn't just boost the old master. They remastered it properly using the original elements. They managed to do in 2016 what they couldn't do in 1999. The noisy ending of No, You Don't is a terrific example of this. And the fact that it's 24/96 is just the very, very, very small tip of the iceberg. And some subtle details are better defined and brought up in the mix without cluttering the loud parts. Somehow, it feels like I'm listening to it for the very first time.

    Believe me, I'm always the first person to bitch about overcompression, the loudness war, lost dynamic range... I'm all over that audiophile shit. And yet, I'm having no issues with the 2016 remaster. I really, really LOVE how it sounds and how it does The Fragile's dense soundscapes justice. Don't just judge it by its waveform. Crank it up. Then, crank up the original CD. You'll see what I mean.
    I looked at the waveform after I felt like it was missing "something" ... the original recordings must be pretty compressed. That's just how it sounds. So when you add the loudness maximizer/brickwalling sound to it, it just sounds a little bit too much to me on a couple of songs. I have the WITT singles and I think the new 10 Miles High sounds a bit like it was recorded from FM radio, where they run already limited CDs through another limiter ... mostly when the drums kick in big time. The only thing the waveforms confirm is that by verifiably having the quieter parts limited more (less of those tasty transients, which may be what you mean by having the peaks 'all over the place'?), that means the loud parts are really limited, as they were already like a solid brick on the original. So the loud parts sound less punchy to me, particularly on the drums, because they're definitely constantly hitting the limiter during those sections.

    I also make my own music, so while not an audiophile per se, I am aware of what different types of limiters/maximizers applied to what effect on top of already possibly dynamically compressed music can do to the sound ... so I may be worse than an audiophile, hehe However! I agree, it does definitely emphasize other details and overall I'm glad to have the vinyl version as a digital file after so long. I was obsessed with this album when I was young after hearing TDS when I was 9 or 10.

  28. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pbgut View Post
    Here's the original CD of The Wretched:
    (http://imgur.com/a/PRaog)
    And here's the remaster:
    (http://imgur.com/a/Vne3H)
    Zoom in. All the way in. I've seen people do comparisons like this where they show the waveform of a five minute audio file in an 800px display. I haven't looked at this latest copy of The Fragile yet, but when I looked at the details of the deluxe edition of The Downward Spiral in 2004, there were a lot of nuances you could see when zoomed in that weren't apparent when zoomed out. While the overall statistical analysis showed that the remaster was louder, detailed analysis showed that there were bits that were quieter overall in the remaster than the original, and different bits that were louder in the remaster than the original.

    The real test is to A/B the old vs the new, and go with which version you prefer coming out of your speakers.

  29. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribbitman View Post
    fuck me the fragile sold out? did anyone email and see when they will have them back?
    no it isn't. for sale again!

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    Quote Originally Posted by NYRexall View Post
    Heh. That post I made last night was a little psychotic, perhaps. I'm laughing about it today though.

    Honestly, I think it has more to do with people on the internet just whining in general about TR's output in the last decade. I don't care either way if someone prefers one album but dislikes another, or doesn't believe something like Year Zero is as revelatory as I do.

    It's the constant bitching on the internet (not here) every time there's a new release: Trent went pussy on Hes. Marks...his film score stuff is too quiet...Year Zero was a mess...he sounds like Fall Out Boy on The Slip...this new EP sounds lazy and uninspired, and it's too loud...

    I'm sorry...which Trent Reznor are these people hoping for? The Purest Feeling TR? We've been screaming for years about hi-def album remasters and now we're going to bitch about those too?

    It's fucking ridiculous. I think a lot of people just put way too much thought into this whole audio thing. If everything is being made so wrong, then go be a world class audio engineer and save us all, FFS. I'm willing to bet 3/4 of the dipshits complaining about the new EP/reissues didn't even put a dime toward them to begin with.

    None of this is a slight towards anyone here, either. Dudes like @botley and @neorev clearly have a grasp on this shit and always seem willing to explain it in a way those who don't can understand, without acting like elitist dicks about it.

    That guy in the reddit thread? I hope he loses sleep over it, keeps wasting his time on music he can't sit through, and loses his girlfriend due to his little schoolboy bitching. That's all I got out of that whole thing..
    I'm never going to knock someone for liking something that I do not. Because in the end, it's all personal preference. I can only explain the reasons why I feel a certain a way and hope that perhaps the other person can understand. Those are just my feelings and doesn't negate anyone else's. If something connects in a way with someone that does not connect in the same way with me, I wish I could have or find that connection than rather belittle what someone else feels. But hell, I probably love plenty of music someone else doesn't and vice versa. It's nothing to get bent out of shape about. But everyone wants something different usually. I'm not the authority of Nine Inch Nails or whatever topic it may be. I can only explain how it feels for me personally and no one else. I can only hope those reading can show mutual respect. Sadly the internet has created an outlet for bitchers and complainers, these are the overboard folks who can't imagine anyone disagreeing with something they said or like something that they do not. The real over the top ones just seem like they have miserable lives and can't some enjoyment spreading their misery onto others. Sadly, you can never win with these people and simply just ignore them.

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