Marilyn Manson - Born Villain

[Jinsai]

Its just the crucifiction of people not on the beatles hype is something i see alllll the time

Harry is being slammed for saying incredibly stupid shit, not because "he doesn't like the Beatles." Plenty of other people in this thread have actually said "I don't like the Beatles," but in the process, they didn't say anything incredibly stupid, so nobody bashed them.

Anyway, let's keep this thread on topic. Born Villain fucking sucks.

[DF118]

This album is absolutely fucking horrible. What a shitty waste of time.

Also, Manson's really got fat these days, hasn't he?

[ManBurning]

I created a playlist that I consider the best of the last 3 albums combined together. It's no surprise to anyone that Born Villain isn't his top album, but better than his last 2 attempts, but that's still not saying much. However, I think we can all agree he has at least a few good tracks on his last 3 albums. So I decided to create an "album" based on picking the best songs from each album... this is what I came up with:

Devour (extended version)
Running To The Edge Of The World
Children Of Cain
Four Rusted Horses
Overneath The Path To Misery
Wight Spider
Blank And White
Slo-Mo-Tion
Mutiliation is the Most sincere form of flattery
The Red Carpet Grave
The Gardener
I have to look up just to see hell
You, me and the Devil makes 3
Breaking The Same Old Ground
Eat me, Drink Me

That's my list anyway. I bet everyone else's would differ, but those in my opinion are the best tracks from the last 3 albums, and listening to them in this order flows pretty well.

[Sutekh]

Harry is being slammed for saying incredibly stupid shit, not because "he doesn't like the Beatles." Plenty of other people in this thread have actually said "I don't like the Beatles," but in the process, they didn't say anything incredibly stupid, so nobody bashed them.

Anyway, let's keep this thread on topic. Born Villain fucking sucks.

Fair enough then!


listening to BV now, it's not too bad. Same problems as every album after holy wood, same persona as EMDM. More cryptic ramblings and less self pity, which is good. A couple of songs (overneath, murderers) are satisfying industrial rock. Or totally contrived, depending how much you like it. Not the old days anymore though! That seems carved in stone now

[imail724]

I see where you're going, and for the most part I can dig it, but The Red Carpet Grave and Mutilation are two of the worst songs Manson has ever released. Ever. As far as EMDM goes, I can only even tolerate the second half (Evidence forward, not including Mutilation obviously), and even those songs are only just tolerable.

[Magtig]

Dear Chris Vrenna, when you said that we'd never be able to tell that the drums on the new Manson record were made with BFD (a soft synth drum machine) I figured you knew your shit. I have since discovered the stiff as fuck drumming on the record. I can tell. Even if I wouldn't have known they were made with a drum machine specifically, I still would have thought they were as stiff and lifeless. They lack dynamics especially the unconvincing snare hits, toms, and hihats, and they're way, way too perfect in terms of timing and tempo. In short, they're incredibly fucking generic, and now it's all I can think about during most of the songs.

The drumming on this record is fucking terrible, except when it's actual electronic drum sounds. That stuff is hardly revolutionary, but it ain't nearly as bad as the stuff that's pretending to be a live drummer,

- Magtig

[Fixer808]

They played that Carly Simon cover on the radio today. I didn't mind it.

[justinthehomo]

Carly Simon's version is alot more enjoyable.

[Krogan Warlord]

I was initially disappointed in the full album, since pretty much all had been revealed in the samples and such. After getting used to 90 second versions of the songs the full versions seemed to meander forever and ever. Here, a couple of days later, it's climbing my list of favorite Manson albums and will probably settle in at number 3. Notice I said "favorite" and not "best." That sort of thing is subjective, which is clearly a term that people such as jinsai would do well to learn.

[Jinsai]

Notice I said "favorite" and not "best." That sort of thing is subjective, which is clearly a term that people such as jinsai would do well to learn.

Where the hell did I say opinions aren't subjective? When I said it "fucking sucked" that's my subjective opinion. In fact, even if you said that it was his best album, that's STILL a subjective opinion. It means that in your personal opinion, you like it better than his other albums, hence you think it's his best. This isn't a difficult concept.

[_incoma_]

Dear Chris Vrenna, when you said that we'd never be able to tell that the drums on the new Manson record were made with BFD (a soft synth drum machine) I figured you knew your shit. I have since discovered the stiff as fuck drumming on the record. I can tell. Even if I wouldn't have known they were made with a drum machine specifically, I still would have thought they were as stiff and lifeless. They lack dynamics especially the unconvincing snare hits, toms, and hihats, and they're way, way too perfect in terms of timing and tempo. In short, they're incredibly fucking generic, and now it's all I can think about during most of the songs.

The drumming on this record is fucking terrible, except when it's actual electronic drum sounds. That stuff is hardly revolutionary, but it ain't nearly as bad as the stuff that's pretending to be a live drummer,

- Magtig

He also said the drumming on the two pervious records were programmed. Did it bother you then too?

[Collin]

someone pm a direct dl plz. thanks!

[ManBurning]

I would place Born Villain 5th in Manson's discography personally.

The first 3 are obviously POAAF, ACSS and Mechanical Animals (It's to hard to place these 3 in best-worst order, so I'll just leave them here as these are the best 3 before). Holywood would come next, and then Born Villain. Golden Age would be next, followed by THEOL and finally EMDM at the bottom of the food chain.

I bet alot of people here would argue placing BV above Golden Age, but for me... I just never liked that album, it was too tacky and bizarre for me. I can't stand the songs on there, they are just too fucking weird.

[Piko]

I could care less about the drums. I went into it knowing full well that they were likely to be programmed. The drum programming is the last thing this album should worry about. My beef is with the songwriting. Manson's been trying the whole "romantic " thing and it has yet to work. Give it a rest already. The songs that aren't whining about women are good, while the ones that are... yeah.

[Krogan Warlord]

Where the hell did I say opinions aren't subjective? When I said it "fucking sucked" that's my subjective opinion. In fact, even if you said that it was his best album, that's STILL a subjective opinion. It means that in your personal opinion, you like it better than his other albums, hence you think it's his best. This isn't a difficult concept.

You're right, it's NOT a difficult concept. Yet you spent 5 or 6 pages of this thread speaking of tastes in absolute terms of correct or incorrect. Are you SURE you get it, princess?

[Masta Mynd]

I wanna hear Manson cover "What if God was one of us" by Joan Osborn man that would be great.

[Jinsai]

You're right, it's NOT a difficult concept. Yet you spent 5 or 6 pages of this thread speaking of tastes in absolute terms of correct or incorrect. Are you SURE you get it, princess?

No, you don't get it.

here's some examples:

"Someone who has never listened to a Beatles album, but feels the need to bash them, is offering an uninformed opinion." - Fact
"That uninformed opinion is fucking stupid." - Opinion
"An informed opinion is more valuable than an uninformed opinion" - Opinion
"The moon is not made of Cheerios" - Fact
"The new Marilyn Manson album sucks" - Opinion

Yeah, I'm sure I get it.

[imail724]

I would place Born Villain 5th in Manson's discography personally.

The first 3 are obviously POAAF, ACSS and Mechanical Animals (It's to hard to place these 3 in best-worst order, so I'll just leave them here as these are the best 3 before). Holywood would come next, and then Born Villain. Golden Age would be next, followed by THEOL and finally EMDM at the bottom of the food chain.

I bet alot of people here would argue placing BV above Golden Age, but for me... I just never liked that album, it was too tacky and bizarre for me. I can't stand the songs on there, they are just too fucking weird.

That's my order almost exactly.
Antichrist Superstar
.
.
.
Mechanical Animals
Portrait
Holy Wood
Born Villain
TGAOG/THEOL
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
EMDM

[Magtig]

Someone asked a few pages back what we, the critical people, want from Manson. I want him to be the next Bowie. Not specifically the person Bowie, nor do I want him to be the sonic Bowie, I want him to have some of the qualities of Bowie: endless experimentation, fearlessness, intelligence and reinvention. I want him to completely change styles and alienate fans while gaining entirely new ones. In fact, I want most of the artists I like to have these qualities. I want them to fix what isn't broken. I want to see them moving forward as artists, but to move forward as an artist you must be moving forward as a person.

There are certainly some enjoyable songs on Born Villian, but there are certainly no surprises either. It's great to see that Manson still has some semblance of ambition, but I can't help but wonder where the energy and intelligence of a fit and sober Manson would have pushed this album. And that's the biggest problem, even though this record is much better than the last two or three, he doesn't seem to have grown at all. He's still chasing the person he used to be 15 years ago, but he's too old and fat to keep up with that guy. I don't mean that in a literal sense, lord knows we've heard enough fat jokes in here, I mean it in the sense that the young see the world in such black and white terms. Naive anger has a certain charm in rock music because it's so incinerating in its absoluteness. Age forces you to see the many shades of gray in life, even if you have a serious case of arrested development.

People said THEOL was a step in the right direction, I had to take their word for it because I could only get through about half the album before wanting to kill myself. I find myself thinking the same thing about Born Villian, but steps are just not enough anymore. He needs to run the fuck away from heavy metal, goth, and anger, and run as fast as possible towards the unknown. That's what he did on Mechanical Animals, and the apocalyptic triumph he achieved there was something truly rewarding to dig into. I consider that the last major step he took in the right direction, even though I enjoyed Holywood and parts of TGAOG.

I read a review somewhere that summed it up pretty succinctly. It said that Manson could have become the next Bowie, but instead he became the next Alice Cooper. I mostly agree with that except that Alice Cooper actually has his shit together, and isn't busy thinking that being an addict is somehow cool. Additionally, Alice Cooper never really had the potential that Manson once had, and possibly still does.

[antiskum]

and that's the key factor that distinguishes how we respond to mansons new stuff - our expectations

i don't want manson to be the next bowie, i never really thought he could be. manson had his time and his place and that was the 90's. he's not relevant anymore, he's not making cutting edge controversial music. i listen to 'good' music and this is not it.

all i want when i put on a new manson album is some guilty pleasure goth rock. something trashy, fun and catchy. and based on that criteria, his past 2 albums have been a success (for me). i really don't know why you would want or expect anything more.

[Harry Seaward]

I want him to have some of the qualities of Bowie: endless experimentation, fearlessness, intelligence and reinvention. I want him to completely change styles and alienate fans while gaining entirely new ones. In fact, I want most of the artists I like to have these qualities. I want them to fix what isn't broken. I want to see them moving forward as artists, but to move forward as an artist you must be moving forward as a person.

Well... That's pretty much what Manson has done. POAAF doesn't sound like ACSS, ACSS doesn't sound like MA, MA doesn't sound like HW, HW doesn't sound like TGAOG, TGAOG doesn't sound like EMDM, EMDM doesn't sound like THEOL, and THEOL doesn't sound like BV. People can say what they'd like about the quality of the albums, that's fine, but there is a pretty clear progression of different styles there. Punk, glam, metal, pop, dark goth rock, and even a taste of rap. Either way, I don't think it's the styles you dislike about Manson, I think it's just the quality of the music, and I'd probably agree with you there. I enjoyed the new album in a vacuum, but relative to what Manson used to be, and what he could have been, it's nothing mind-blowing.

If you're expecting a total and complete change of the entire sound, I think that's totally unreasonable. Yes, it's nice when that does happen, but it's not fair to expect an artist to just drop their signature sound and start over with a new one. It's fine to not enjoy the music, but I don't think it's fair to criticize a musician for sounding like themselves.

[Krogan Warlord]

No, you don't get it. here's some examples:"Someone who has never listened to a Beatles album, but feels the need to bash them, is offering an uninformed opinion." - Fact"That uninformed opinion is fucking stupid." - Opinion"An informed opinion is more valuable than an uninformed opinion" - Opinion"The moon is not made of Cheerios" - Fact"The new Marilyn Manson album sucks" - OpinionYeah, I'm sure I get it.

Then why do at least two of your examples not demonstrate said concept?

[Jinsai]

Then why do at least two of your examples not demonstrate said concept?

Go back to grade school

Still, I'm fascinated. What exactly do you fail to understand? Please, be specific.

[The Gardener]

In my opinion Born Villain is without a doubt the best Marilyn Manson album of all time. It picks up right where Mechanical Animals left off. How any of you guys can complain about such a masterpiece is beyond me.

[Krogan Warlord]

Go back to grade school

Still, I'm fascinated. What exactly do you fail to understand? Please, be specific.

*Sigh.* I should know better than trying to argue rationally with an obvious troll.

[coolguy]

How any of you guys can complain about such a masterpiece is beyond me.

Obviously.

[Jinsai]

*Sigh.* I should know better than trying to argue rationally with an obvious troll.

Was it the part about the moon being made of Cheerios? I hate to break it to you, but the moon isn't made of Cheerios.

Also, if you want to pretend to be rational, answer my question dumbass. You said I failed on (at least) two of my points. I'm just asking you to clarify what those two points were.

[Krogan Warlord]

Was it the part about the moon being made of Cheerios? I hate to break it to you, but the moon isn't made of Cheerios.Also, if you want to pretend to be rational, answer my question dumbass. You said I failed on (at least) two of my points. I'm just asking you to clarify what those two points were.

If I seriously have to point out which two, then there is no hope for you. You should be able to find them yourself. You WROTE the list!You think that by being harsh and loud you can mask your inherent stupidity, but you don't fool me. I can tell that you're struggling. If you need someone to talk to, feel free to PM me. You don't have to go through this alone.

[Jinsai]

If I seriously have to point out which two, then there is no hope for you. You should be able to find them yourself. You WROTE the list!You think that by being harsh and loud you can mask your inherent stupidity, but you don't fool me. I can tell that you're struggling. If you need someone to talk to, feel free to PM me. You don't have to go through this alone.

Just do it. Totally show me what a fool I am, and make me look ridiculous. I don't get why you're stalling. Own me already.

[Krogan Warlord]

The first and third examples do not display subjectivity. I think what must have happened is that you confused the subjective vs. objective argument with some sort of fact vs. opinion argument, unaware of the difference. That happens, I guess.