Sandbag Watch - NIN and Sandbag part. Livenation picks up the pieces.

[neorev]

You know, on the vinyl versions of those SP reissues, I'm not hearing any issues. Though I know the CD and digital versions were hot af thanks to Brickwall Bob Lugwig and his hot mastering goons.

But the Gish, SD and MCIS vinyl represses sound pretty good to my ears

Actually Bob Ludwig did an amazing job because he ONLY worked on the actual main album discs only and not the discs with additional material. The vinyl, CD, and digital main albums sound good to me. Unlike the bonus material that were done by different people and sadly pushed the volume on them.

I own the CDs and I have digital copies of all the reissues (Gish/Siamese/Pisces/Mellon Collie in 24 bit & Aeroplane/Adore sadly only have a 16 bit digital release)

From the booklets...
Gish & Siamese Dream: Disc 1 were remastered by Bod Ludwig - Disc 2 mastered by Evren Goknar.
Pisces Iscariot: Disc 1 remastered by Bob Ludwig Discs 2 mastered by Howie Weinberg.
Mellon Collie: Discs 1 & 2 by Bod Ludwig - Discs 3,4,& 5 by Howie Weinberg
Aeroplane Flies High: Discs 1-5 mastered by Bod Ludwig and Adam Ayan (guessing Bob did the regular Aeroplane tracks while Adam did the additional material on each disc) - Disc 6 mastered by Howie Weinberg and Dan Gerbarg
Adore: Disc 1 remastered by Bob Ludwig Discs 2-6 mastered by Howie Weinberg.

So it's actually Bob Ludwig who made these releases sound so good. The main albums are not brickwalled at all. I gotta crank them in the car. Sadly Howie Weinberg, Evren Goknar, etc. are the reasons the bonus material is brickwalled. The Adore bonus/demo material is especially cranked up.

I have the original album ripped and I have the 24 bit digital file, they are literally the EXACT same volume. But you can hear an increase in the bonus material, even in the 24 bit digital. Luckily, the album remasters on their own are perfect.

[minusthesnake]

Actually Bob Ludwig did an amazing job because he ONLY worked on the actual main album discs only and not the discs with additional material. The vinyl, CD, and digital main albums sound good to me. Unlike the bonus material that were done by different people and sadly pushed the volume on them.

I own the CDs and I have digital copies of all the reissues (Gish/Siamese/Pisces/Mellon Collie in 24 bit & Aeroplane/Adore sadly only have a 16 bit digital release)

From the booklets...
Gish & Siamese Dream: Disc 1 were remastered by Bod Ludwig - Disc 2 mastered by Evren Goknar.
Pisces Iscariot: Disc 1 remastered by Bob Ludwig Discs 2-6 mastered by Howie Weinberg.
Mellon Collie: Discs 1 & 2 by Bod Ludwig - Discs 3,4,& 5 by Howie Weinberg
Aeroplane Flies High: Discs 1-5 mastered by Bod Ludwig and Adam Ayan (guessing Bob did the regular Aeroplane tracks while Adam did the additional material on each disc) - Disc 6 mastered by Howie Weinberg and Dan Gerbarg
Adore: Disc 1 remastered by Bob Ludwig Discs 2-6 mastered by Howie Weinberg.

So it's actually Bob Ludwig who made these releases sound so good. The main albums are not brickwalled at all. I gotta crank them in the car. Sadly Howie Weinberg, Evren Goknar, etc. are the reasons the bonus material is brickwalled. The Adore bonus/demo material is especially cranked up.

I have the original album ripped and I have the 24 bit digital file, they are literally the EXACT same volume. But you can hear an increase in the bonus material, even in the 24 bit digital. Luckily, the album remasters are perfect.

Yep, all of the SP main album remasters sound glorious (except Pisces Iscariot which has digital noise artifacts on both "Pissant" and "Obscured"), but the bonus discs of Pisces and Adore sound god awful, brickwalled to high heaven. I believe the MCIS and TAFH bonus stuff was fine, but I could be wrong. I know the Gish and Siamese Dream bonus discs were perfect.

It's especially sad because Adore has the best bonus material by far, but it's just so painful to listen to in headphones.

[neorev]

Yep, all of the SP main album remasters sound glorious (except Pisces Iscariot which has digital noise artifacts on both "Pissant" and "Obscured"), but the bonus discs of Pisces and Adore sound god awful, brickwalled to high heaven. I believe the MCIS and TAFH bonus stuff was fine, but I could be wrong. I know the Gish and Siamese Dream bonus discs were perfect.

I agree, the bonus material on Gish, SD, MC, and Aeroplane were just fine. Adore's bonus material is definitely the worst remaster-wise. But it's still nowhere near as terrible as Deftones' recent 24 bit digital remasters. Those are awful and grating.

[WorzelG]

my copy showed up 3 days early, and luckily undamaged. i am in love! listening now...

they actually look really lovely

[neorev]

Amon Tobin released this amazing boxset containing a live album, new tracks, unreleased material, and remixes on 7CDs, 6LP, 2 DVDs, and two art pieces...



For $125

[minusthesnake]

I'm finally actually listening to this thing, now that I know I don't have to send it back. I gotta say, this is one of the best sounding pieces of vinyl I own. Every LP is dead silent between tracks, the music is full and lush, they arrived perfectly flat and completely spotless.

Honestly my only complaint is that it's pressed a bit quietly, which is odd considering the remasters from last year are mastered a bit too loud.

[botley]

Who cares about what other artists are charging for their shitty box sets, this is the goddamn Lost fucking Fragile Tracks. It's going to quadruple in value.

[neorev]

Who cares about what other artists are charging for their shitty box sets, this is the goddamn Lost fucking Fragile Tracks. It's going to quadruple in value.

You mean this release in which most of the tracks were given away for free download with Apple Music's launch? Who cares if this set is gonna quadruple in value? Why the hell does that even matter? That doesn't mean anything. I'm sorry, but those other bands delivered BETTER releases with their "crappy" boxsets than this release. Fans stroke these way too much over The Fragile.

[heavymaskinen]

It's still insanely overpriced for what it is - as a package.

[Kyle]

If he charges the same for The Downward Spiral Deviations 2, I'll admit I'll gladly pay the same and offer a few limbs along with it.

[WorzelG]

Amon Tobin released this amazing boxset containing a live album, new tracks, unreleased material, and remixes on 7CDs, 6LP, 2 DVDs, and two art pieces...



For $125

did you buy Deviations? What happened with your package

[botley]

You mean this release in which most of the tracks were given away for free download with Apple Music's launch?

Yes, the one that this enormous worldwide rabid fan base had been clamouring for since 1999, yes.

Who cares if this set is gonna quadruple in value? Why the hell does that even matter?

Because money buys things?

I'm sorry, but those other bands delivered BETTER releases with their "crappy" boxsets than this release. Fans stroke these way too much over The Fragile.

I suppose whether or not that's true depends on what you're into and how much value you place on it. If only there was a way to index the baseline value of goods, like some kind of interchangable market value, pegged to a worldwide rate of exchange!

[neorev]

Well then I, and it seems many others, don't place an $80 value on this end product. Thankfully I canceled my order and not stuck with the disappointment. When you look at people's reactions and see that only a third out of those people seem satisfied with the end product that is very telling. Positive reactions are few and far in between. The general consensus is people were expecting a little bit more from the products itself and the delivery of that product is nearly a full on failure. The biggest issues that give folks the right to be a bit disappointed was the misleading PDF file and Trent's mission statement. And just as you said, this IS The Fragile. A release that we've been cockteased about for years. How Trent was developing some insane large reissue with tons of material. In the end, we got several unheard instrumentals and a bunch of tracks given away for free in your basic, bare bones vinyl set. I think many felt that this release was going to be a little more in depth and special. Especially how Trent went on about look at the album sleeve and artwork when listening to an album. Since this album is an instrumental, you don't have lyrics to look at and follow along with. So you'd at least expect some collection of artwork that you could look at while you listen to this instrumental album. There is a huge chunk of the "vinyl experience" missing here.

[Art Vandelay]

Deviations was never listed as a box set, but a 4 album release it doesn't even mention artwork or box set of any kind in its description. So let me break it down this way four albums of music from The Fragile sessions. If Trent or NIN sold them separately they would probably be about $20 a piece which is cheap for vinyl these days.

[implanted_microchip]

People who are happy with it don't have to be condescending holier-than-thou pricks and people who are disappointed don't have to act like it's total shit and there's zero reason for the absolutely weird fighting going on here for pages upon pages now where people try to tell other people that their opinions and feelings are somehow wrong.

If all you care about is having the music itself physically on vinyl then this is great. Otherwise, it leaves a bit to be desired. Depending on what you go for, you might be happy, or you might be let down. The fact that there has been so much issue with the actual shipping and damage of the item is its own issue and to act like anyone is somehow ungrateful, entitled, ignorant or being a child because they'd like to receive their $80 collector's item in new condition is ridiculous. There really doesn't have to be fighting over this, and nobody is better or worse than anybody else for whether or not they feel satisfied with a purchase they made or a product that was released.
@Art Vandelay that doesn't really hold true though -- the physical LPs do not run $20 each unless if an entire album is only one LP. The Fragile Deviations is a 4 record set but it's one main project. Ghosts I-IV was marketed as 4 EPs of sorts put together and even that on vinyl in its own standard release was anywhere from 35-45 USD as one single item.

[Art Vandelay]

@Art Vandelay that doesn't really hold true though -- the physical LPs do not run $20 each unless if an entire album is only one LP. The Fragile Deviations is a 4 record set but it's one main project. Ghosts I-IV was marketed as 4 EPs of sorts put together and even that on vinyl in its own standard release was anywhere from 35-45 USD as one single item.

and how much is NTAE is selling for in the store? and it is a one sided vinyl. I'm so sick of reading this shit if you don't like don't fucking buy it.

[neorev]

Deviations was never listed as a box set, but a 4 album release it doesn't even mention artwork or box set of any kind in its description. So let me break it down this way four albums of music from The Fragile sessions. If Trent or NIN sold them separately they would probably be about $20 a piece which is cheap for vinyl these days.

But if you go by pricing, you can see a pattern...

Not The Actual Events is $20 for a single record
Broken is $25 for a record plus a 7"
TDS is $35 for a double LP
The Fragile is $45 for a 3LP w/ lyric & art booklet
Deviations 1 is $80 for a 4LP w/ no booklet

$35 is just a huge leap from the extra $10 ($5 if 7") price per additional record when it comes to what you get with the end product.

[botley]

But it's not comparable on a discs-to-discs level. That was my point about other artists — they make for an irrelevant comparison. If you like another artist who has put out a cheaper/more lavish box, great. This is a different artist and a wholly different scenario.

Yes, it was given away (partially) on Apple, but this is the only commerical release. And it's likely to be very much in demand for years to come.

[rboggs]

Got it today. My thought on the bike ride home was I've been waiting for this album almost twenty years, and now that I've listened, I love it. Thanks Trent.

Feel like the first time. yum.

[neorev]

I think the huge price jump, misleading PDF art file, Trent's mission statement, Firebrand/Sandbag clusterfuck, the many years of Fragile reissue cockteasing, and seeing what other artists have delivered at an $80 set are all valid reasons for people to have some disappointment. That's all. If you love it, you love it. No one is knocking you for loving it. But people have justified reasons in their disappointment. That is all. I'm done.

[GentlemanLoser]

And it's likely to be very much in demand for years to come.

But let's be real. Even if it jumps in value to like $300 or something, I ain't going to part with it. Even though the packaging is a little disappointing, I am going to love and cherish this album nonetheless.

I may have been hoping for at least a few bells and whistles, but this record does look beautiful, even if it's a bit plain.

[Art Vandelay]

But if you go by pricing, you can see a pattern...

Not The Actual Events is $20 for a single record
Broken is $25 for a record plus a 7"
TDS is $35 for a double LP
The Fragile is $45 for a 3LP w/ lyric & art booklet
Deviations 1 is $80 for a 4LP w/ no booklet

$35 is just a huge leap from the extra $10 ($5 if 7") price per additional record when it comes to what you get with the end product.

This is all I am going to say about this and I am done! any more entries to this thread will be either about my enjoyment of this or a possible complaint about packaging with regards to shipping (but that is Sandbag not NIN).

Neorev aren't you a musician? Don't you yourself release music? I am a musician, and support musicians locally and world wide. I support them famous or not famous, wealthy or poor. I would never presume to tell another artist the value of their own material. If I think something is over priced I won't buy it. If it is one of my favorite artists like NIN, it will eat at me if I don't buy it since I collect stuff by my favorite artists.

No offense, but I flat out disagree with you and what you are saying about this release.

[sheepdean]

Question: did you enjoy it as much as The Fragile? Did you find those gems and unreleased pieces magical? Could you afford the money you spent on it?
If yes, it was worth $80

[implanted_microchip]

All it would have taken to avoid most of the discontent people are feeling would have been actual detailed pictures on the product page and a digital-only option, along with some bubble-wrap. That's it.

[tony.parente]

Question: did you enjoy it as much as The Fragile? Did you find those gems and unreleased pieces magical? Could you afford the money you spent on it?
If yes, it was worth $80

It's the best $45 vinyl release that $80 could buy!

[neorev]

This is all I am going to say about this and I am done! any more entries to this thread will be either about my enjoyment of this or a possible complaint about packaging with regards to shipping (but that is Sandbag not NIN).

Neorev aren't you a musician? Don't you yourself release music? I am a musician, and support musicians locally and world wide. I support them famous or not famous, wealthy or poor. I would never presume to tell another artist the value of their own material. If I think something is over priced I won't buy it. If it is one of my favorite artists like NIN, it will eat at me if I don't buy it since I collect stuff by my favorite artists.

No offense, but I flat out disagree with you and what you are saying about this release.

Yes, I am a musician. Yes, I release music. I support music as well. I actually still buy music for the quality and not just stream it for cheap. I don't care it is an artist that I love or not. If something is not adding up or the end result is disappointing, a paying fan has the right to voice their opinion. That's the whole point of art. If an artist is fleecing their fans or choosing profits over getting the merch people pay for to them undamaged, the fans have a right to say something. Art is reactionary. There's a reason why certain people will pay loads of money for a painting and others will not. It's the fans (the buyers) that drive the price up, not the artists. If you pay to see an artist perform live and he shows up drunk and can't even complete a song without fucking it up, are you not allowed to say something about it? Or are you suppose to just be obedient and quiet and be like, "Well he's the artist. He can charge whatever wants for a ticket and decide what he wants to do during the performance. He could put on a show or take a shit on the stage. I can't say nothing because I'm just a fan."

Plus this is different. This is about what something that was built up to be compared to the actual final delivered product. People were expecting something more. Many things were said and done that I could see would make people feel misled and disappointed.

You want to come at me for being a musician myself. Well, if I was a successful musician I wouldn't be sitting there all evil villain style rubbing my hands together thinking how much money could I get from my fans. What's the maximum I can charge for this basic vinyl set? Let me find something my fans are desperate for, then I know they'll pay all kinds of money for it. Let me not release it right away. I'll wait ooooh let's say 5 or 10 years first before releasing anything. Let me take a stance on vinyl about how amazing it is and how you're not listening to music correctly. And you shall only be able to buy it on vinyl. CDs??? Pffft... for loooooseeerrrrs. Digital??? Ewww... I nearly threw up in my mouth. NOOO! Vinyl is it! You want to buy a digital copy? Well you can't! You have to buy this beautifully bare bones vinyl set instead. You will sit there for days with my record playing while you stare enamored at my magnificent plethora of art... just so in the end I'll actually put all of the amazing art only in a PDF file for the downloaders to get all excited and then barely use any of it for the actual record itself. But you better turn off your damn cell phones! Muwahahahahahaha.

This reminds me of that incident back when Trent was bitching about the label on stage and how they were overcharging his fans because they knew that they would pay the higher price.

[Conan The Barbarian]

Got a damaged package. Made a ticket for the replacement, all is fine. Since I don't have a record player right now, I'll play the digits versions.

And that's the end of it.

Like someone said, if Trent releases deviations 2: the downward spiral, I will happily spread my butt cheeks and hope that we get a little more artwork next time around.

Has anyone used the download code? Do they give you different versions like before?

[WorzelG]

Yes, I am a musician. Yes, I release music. I support music as well. I actually still buy music for the quality and not just stream it for cheap. I don't care it is an artist that I love or not. If something is not adding up or the end result is disappointing, a paying fan has the right to voice their opinion. That's the whole point of art. If an artist is fleecing their fans or choosing profits over getting the merch people pay for to them undamaged, the fans have a right to say something. Art is reactionary. There's a reason why certain people will pay loads of money for a painting and others will not. It's the fans (the buyers) that drive the price up, not the artists. If you pay to see an artist perform live and he shows up drunk and can't even complete a song without fucking it up, are you not allowed to say something about it? Or are you suppose to just be obedient and quiet and be like, "Well he's the artist. He can charge whatever wants for a ticket and decide what he wants to do during the performance. He could put on a show or take a shit on the stage. I can't say nothing because I'm just a fan."

Plus this is different. This is about what something that was built up to be compared to the actual final delivered product. People were expecting something more. Many things were said and done that I could see would make people feel misled and disappointed.

You want to come at me for being a musician myself. Well, if I was a successful musician I wouldn't be sitting there all evil villain style rubbing my hands together thinking how much money could I get from my fans. What's the maximum I can charge for this basic vinyl set? Let me find something my fans are desperate for, then I know they'll pay all kinds of money for it. Let me not release it right away. I'll wait ooooh let's say 5 or 10 years first before releasing anything. Let me take a stance on vinyl about how amazing it is and how you're not listening to music correctly. And you shall only be able to buy it on vinyl. CDs??? Pffft... for loooooseeerrrrs. Digital??? Ewww... I nearly threw up in my mouth. NOOO! Vinyl is it! You want to buy a digital copy? Well you can't! You have to buy this beautifully bare bones vinyl set instead. You will sit there for days with my record playing while you stare enamored at my magnificent plethora of art... just so in the end I'll actually put all of the amazing art only in a PDF file for the downloaders to get all excited and then barely use any of it for the actual record itself. But you better turn off your damn cell phones! Muwahahahahahaha.

This reminds me of that incident back when Trent was bitching about the label on stage and how they were overcharging his fans because they knew that they would pay the higher price.

You got the entire thing digitally and a refund for the entire price like me, what's your problem? You've spent fuck all

[neorev]

You got the entire thing digitally and a refund for the entire price like me, what's your problem? You've spent fuck all

Hey, I was done with the convo. This guy was coming at me because I'm a musician, acting like I don't support artists when I'm sadly one of the few that actually pays to download digital music and buys physical music and do my best to buy directly from the artist. It was a silly sarcastic response to someone attacking me as an artist/musician myself. Showing the difference between a situation where expectations were built up due to grand statements and misleading info causing folks to be disappointed with the end result versus a situation where you know exactly the item that you are buying. I'm sure there are quite a few folks that if they knew exactly what the Deviations set was gonna be and look like wouldn't have dropped the $80 on it. But again, this release has been built up over the years teasing its release, the huge difference in pricing from the other packages, Trent's grand statement on how he wants to present vinyl, and the PDF art files all contributed to people having higher expectations. But don't try to come at me for being a musician and act like I'm someone who doesn't support the artists they love.

[EndlessLoveless]

Just checked my porch, just in case, not thinking it would be there and fuck yes it is! It's a beautiful thing The artwork additions are really cool and very curious. This is gorgeous. Weve waited since 99 for real lost FRAGILE, another few months wasn't a big deal to me. To have this in my hands right now is truly something... So glad I ordered. No audio notes yet. Laying down the needle now...

And by the way, I could give a shit about a booklet. This is cool enough without one and without lyrics, who gives a fuck. I think I like it better without. It really doesn't need one, nothing needs to be written inside. It works. And we all know who's on it at this point.