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Wes
02-10-2012, 01:34 AM
Anybody know where I might be able to hear these?

Thank you,
Wes

sheepdean
02-10-2012, 01:42 AM
Nope. I've never heard of them existing in any form, and I highly doubt they do. Bleedthrough probably had a few demo tracks fleshed out, but even if Trent kept them, they've never been made available.

Leviathant
02-10-2012, 02:13 AM
I'm not aware of any With Teeth demos. There was rampant speculation when "Getting Smaller" and "The Line Begins to Blur" were leaked, that they were 'unmastered' or 'unfinished' tracks. People swearing up and down that in no way could this possibly be a finished NIN track. I'm pretty sure at least one person left ETS after With Teeth came out in relation to the noise they made about how the final version wouldn't be nearly so stripped down.

The only hints that I recall we have about With Teeth demos come from the copyright office, where, for example, Love Is Not Enough is also referenced as "The Clamp" (http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=125&ti=101,125&Search_Arg=Reznor&Search_Code=NALL&CNT=25&PID=fElx4yydwFf519T1XCNKHWiKOsI&SEQ=20120210030840&SID=5).

BenAkenobi
02-10-2012, 02:15 AM
there are rehearsals (entire With Teeth), outtakes (Not so pretty now, Non-entity, probable but unconfirmed The warning), unused lyrics (PDF poster), what else to be expected honestly?

BRoswell
02-10-2012, 03:20 AM
...probable but unconfirmed The warning...

I think if anything from The Warning has its origins in With Teeth, it would be some of the lyrics (especially the part where he sings about "so much potential, or so they used to say", which is a theme you hear in Not So Pretty Now as well). I can't see that whole song being an outtake from With Teeth since it's very much a Year Zero-style song. In fact, aside from the Demos and Remixes/Purest Feeling bootleg and the demos on the Deluxe Edition of The Downward Spiral, I would say that they've done a pretty good job of keeping demos and outtakes under lock and key.

jmtd
02-10-2012, 05:02 AM
I think if anything from The Warning has its origins in With Teeth, it would be some of the lyrics (especially the part where he sings about "so much potential, or so they used to say", which is a theme you hear in Not So Pretty Now as well). I can't see that whole song being an outtake from With Teeth since it's very much a Year Zero-style song. In fact, aside from the Demos and Remixes/Purest Feeling bootleg and the demos on the Deluxe Edition of The Downward Spiral, I would say that they've done a pretty good job of keeping demos and outtakes under lock and key.

"The Warning" was listed on the WT lyrics PDF w/o lyrics - suggesting it was an instrumental. It may have nothing more in common with YZ's "The Warning" than the name. http://www.ninwiki.com/The_Warning_(With_Teeth_song)

BenAkenobi
02-10-2012, 06:34 AM
uh-oh, shouldn't have mentioned that Warning song :-[

theimage13
02-10-2012, 06:58 AM
uh-oh, shouldn't have mentioned that Warning song :-[


It's okay, you're not in trouble. We'll let you off with a warning this time.

Hazekiah
02-10-2012, 07:52 AM
The only hints that I recall we have about With Teeth demos come from the copyright office, where, for example, Love Is Not Enough is also referenced as "The Clamp" (http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=125&ti=101,125&Search_Arg=Reznor&Search_Code=NALL&CNT=25&PID=fElx4yydwFf519T1XCNKHWiKOsI&SEQ=20120210030840&SID=5).

Hell, yeah!

Thanks, I thought I was gonna know everything that was in this thread already but went ahead and clicked-in anyway and this was completely new to me.

Took a minute to figure out but I'd bet money that's a reference to a VEIN CLAMP:




http://www.europeanurology.com/uploads/eur_articles/S0302-2838%2806%2900154-0/assets/gr2.jpg

WELL, IT HIDES IN THE DARK
JUST LIKE THE WITHERING VEIN
WE DIDN'T GIVE IT A MOUTH, NO
SO IT COULD NOT COMPLAIN







Fucking BRILLIANT songwriting imagery there, goddamn.

O_O

Wes
02-10-2012, 12:22 PM
Whoa-- I'll have to look for those rehearsals.

I asked because I was watching this interview with Mr. R
and he mentioned getting positive feedback from DGrohl on the Demos.


Im new to the Internet

So I appreciate the feedback

Thank you

I believe it's this one or Part I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GycdWMa1eak&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Hazekiah
02-10-2012, 12:48 PM
^ Neat!

Back to the vein clamp thing for just a sec, it occurred to me after I logged out that the title-change from "The Clamp" probably went hand-in-hand with the title-change from bleedthrough.

Just made a LOT of sense all of a sudden and I thought I should add that, too.

:)

sheepdean
02-10-2012, 03:16 PM
Bleedthrough is a theme that still exists in With Teeth: he mentions a desire for the audio to bleed through different tracks, and so we have all the songs mentioning each other, sharing phrases and even mentioning PHM (in the case of Only). I keep forgetting to write up a master post for how all the songs link.

butter_hole
02-10-2012, 03:37 PM
He mentioned recording demos with just a piano and a drum machine, didn't he?

DigitalChaos
02-10-2012, 03:39 PM
I'm pretty sure at least one person left ETS after With Teeth came out in relation to the noise they made about how the final version wouldn't be nearly so stripped down.


haha wow
the internet is serious fucking business!

ancientlasers
02-10-2012, 06:28 PM
Bleedthrough is a theme that still exists in With Teeth: he mentions a desire for the audio to bleed through different tracks, and so we have all the songs mentioning each other, sharing phrases and even mentioning PHM (in the case of Only). I keep forgetting to write up a master post for how all the songs link.

That is such an amazing concept for an album.

BenAkenobi
02-11-2012, 01:28 AM
sheepdean:
...I keep forgetting to write up a master post for how all the songs link.

make it a chart on a chalkboard like they do it in detective movies!

Ryan
02-11-2012, 02:33 AM
Bleedthrough is a theme that still exists in With Teeth: he mentions a desire for the audio to bleed through different tracks, and so we have all the songs mentioning each other, sharing phrases and even mentioning PHM (in the case of Only). I keep forgetting to write up a master post for how all the songs link.

Trent was supposed to write just that, "a long essay," and supply it with the "changed" version of the With Teeth package that was supposed to happen over the course of the tour, but never happened.

goldenurle117
02-11-2012, 09:58 AM
Bleedthrough is a theme that still exists in With Teeth: he mentions a desire for the audio to bleed through different tracks, and so we have all the songs mentioning each other, sharing phrases and even mentioning PHM (in the case of Only). I keep forgetting to write up a master post for how all the songs link.

he also references TDS on Sunspots. and he says 'bleeding through' in EDIETS, and BYIT.

Wolfkiller
02-11-2012, 10:43 AM
I heard one of those "friend of a friend" tales from someone who supposedly worked with Trent and listened to the demos, saying they were nothing like the finished product. Trent did remark early on the album was going to be something like "13 hard punches to the face", which I think we all can agree, With Teeth was not. Can't say if there is any truth to the story though.

Highly Psychological
02-11-2012, 11:02 AM
I always wanted to hear the track MY DEAD FRIEND. When news he was making Bleedthrough came out in 2003 he said he had written a track with that that title. But with my dead friend Meathead created an image of a deeply ,deeply psychologically disturbed 5 year old Trenty Reznor in 1970 drawing that picture and handing it to his teacher, it was genius........Yeah....that wait for With Teeth seemed to go on for a long long time!!!

botley
02-11-2012, 04:12 PM
Trent was supposed to write just that, "a long essay," and supply it with the "changed" version of the With Teeth package that was supposed to happen over the course of the tour, but never happened.
Because they did all of that WAY better in the Year Zero ARG.

Wretchedest
02-11-2012, 08:39 PM
I think somewhere its been mentioned that "My Dead Friend" became "Beside you in Time" but I could be wrong...

ManBurning
02-16-2012, 02:19 AM
There are still a couple missing tracks according to that With_Teeth lyrics poster though.
Mainly "The Life you didn't lead".
"The Warning" was also a title there, but one could argue that become the warning on Year_Zero, but I highly doubt that. As Trent wasn't quite in that musical mindframe during the writing of With_Teeth that came from Year Zero.

Indefinite_Cure
02-16-2012, 05:22 AM
There are still a couple missing tracks according to that With_Teeth lyrics poster though.
Mainly "The Life you didn't lead".
"The Warning" was also a title there, but one could argue that become the warning on Year_Zero, but I highly doubt that. As Trent wasn't quite in that musical mindframe during the writing of With_Teeth that came from Year Zero.
If I remember correctly, he said he'd written Year Zero entirely on the road during the 2005-2006 tours and I don't think it's Trent's style to just recycle songs from one session for the next album

fillow
02-16-2012, 05:34 AM
I don't think it's Trent's style to just recycle songs from one session for the next album
Demon Seed

Indefinite_Cure
02-16-2012, 06:30 AM
Demon Seed

Does that really count? :rolleyes:

I mean, Ghosts I-IV and The Slip were written basically during the same session...more or less

Ok, I give you that one, argument withdrawn. :p

ItsJustDave
02-16-2012, 08:32 AM
There are still a couple missing tracks according to that With_Teeth lyrics poster though.
Mainly "The Life you didn't lead".
"The Warning" was also a title there
I still wonder if the With Teeth lyrics poster wasn't intended to be a gateway into an ARG that never took off (for any number of reasons).

Callahan
02-16-2012, 10:04 AM
Whoa-- I'll have to look for those rehearsals.

I asked because I was watching this interview with Mr. R
and he mentioned getting positive feedback from DGrohl on the Demos.


Im new to the Internet (at28)and don't really know my way around.

So I appreciate the feedback

Thank you

I believe it's this one or Part I
[/URL]

Here are the rehearsals if you're interested.

[url]http://www.mediafire.com/?84beru4eizoq91r (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GycdWMa1eak&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

botley
02-16-2012, 10:41 AM
I still wonder if the With Teeth lyrics poster wasn't intended to be a gateway into an ARG that never took off (for any number of reasons).
Absolutely. The text from those Bleedthrough-era nin.com pages suggests an embryonic version of the idea that fuelled the ARG was in progress as early as 2004. You could point to even-older versions of the website, too. It's something they were working on for a long, long time.

Ryan
02-16-2012, 03:52 PM
I still wonder if the With Teeth lyrics poster wasn't intended to be a gateway into an ARG that never took off (for any number of reasons).

Remember there was a question submitted to the /access section of NIN.com aeons ago asking about those three tracks and Trent's response was simply: "?"

Ryan
02-16-2012, 03:52 PM
Absolutely. The text from those Bleedthrough-era nin.com pages suggests an embryonic version of the idea that fuelled the ARG was in progress as early as 2004. You could point to even-older versions of the website, too. It's something they were working on for a long, long time.

Plus the Year Zero flag logo in The Slip album art. It all seems quite elaborate and intertwined. I love that shit.

fakdoo
02-16-2012, 07:49 PM
This (http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=112&ti=101,112&SEQ=20120216204711&Search_Arg=Reznor&Search_Code=NALL&CNT=25&PID=8jXmO5gPYTHd8vOWKdoxElQLauO4&SID=5) also says that the original title for EDIETS was 'Premonition'.

butter_hole
02-16-2012, 08:06 PM
I wanna hear this

http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=11&ti=1,11&SC=Author&SA=Reznor%2C%20Trent%2C%201965-&PID=wDLFrHJlQHdIVOly287k9xAwKrP_mJG&SEQ=20120216210629&SID=2

allegro
02-16-2012, 09:00 PM
Absolutely. The text from those Bleedthrough-era nin.com pages suggests an embryonic version of the idea that fuelled the ARG was in progress as early as 2004. You could point to even-older versions of the website, too. It's something they were working on for a long, long time.
Remember back when the original Bleedthrough concept was supposedly inspired by this book?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lathe_of_Heaven

http://www.ninwiki.com/images/b/b1/2004_05_07Questions9.gif

mfte
02-17-2012, 07:34 AM
Didnt With Teeth demos evolve into the final versions that we know?

I remember reading an interview where he said that he went to a real studio to record vocals but they were missing the raw vibe of when he was demoing them... and then ended up keeping the original takes.

screwdriver
11-24-2012, 02:03 PM
I heard one of those "friend of a friend" tales from someone who supposedly worked with Trent and listened to the demos, saying they were nothing like the finished product. Trent did remark early on the album was going to be something like "13 hard punches to the face", which I think we all can agree, With Teeth was not. Can't say if there is any truth to the story though.

I'm resurrecting this thread (as opposed to a new one) because I popped in With Teeth today and just wanted to opine that it is so criminally underrated. When this thing is loud, I think 13 hard punches to the face is spot on. I think its the last NIN album I liked unreservedly. it makes me long for TR to get back to writing pop songs.

Final Destiny
11-24-2012, 05:01 PM
With Teeth really is a good album. It's the one that started the formula of "drums first, build everything on top of that after eight bars", but the songs on it are still damn good. Back when I was really getting into NIN, With Teeth was the album that pulled me in all the way.

Highly Psychological
11-24-2012, 07:54 PM
At the time to me it all sounded rather NIN-Lite. It has its moments, but it lacked a certain force, it to me is never truly exhilarating.,all sounds a bit flat. Trent sounded for some reason like he was playing it safe, holding back, which is not why i got into NIN.
Its hard to believe its from the same guy who wrote The Becoming. However Sunspots in particular and, Collector and Getting Smaller are good and the track With Teeth sounded better live, so something was still there.
Think people had absurdly high expectations, it came after two groundbreaking masterpiece's.

But i understand and respect and think its just because Trent was in a very different place in his life. It was an album about Addiction. He was sober and i think it makes a bigger difference to an artist than people realize. People's music changes because in sobriety they change immensely. Before hand him being a functional addict i presume he translated a lot of his turmoil and confusion into his art. When he got Sober he would have found other more constructive ways of outleting his emotions, his way was not working. He probably dealt with things that had bugged him his whole life, so the desperate need to translate this negative force into his music probably was not as strong. Probably why it lacks a certain force other NIN records had. Its just a very different man in a different place. Before hand it was a tidal wave of manic intense emotion, it was powerful art because it sounded like it was capturing someone totally fucked up in the head on the verge but with immense prodigal musical and songwriting skills. With sobriety and vital help and support from people and working on himself which he needed the manic energy, desperate need for total perfectionism died down and was probably just not there so much. At least it didn't sound like he was trying to be the same person from The Downward Spiral. He was being honest as to where he was at. Its just a record capturing him in a different place. A place not as intense.
It in hindsight seems like an awkward transitional album, maybe he was adjusting to making music in a new head space, Year Zero sounded more confident and was way more fun and much better in my opinion.

neorev
11-24-2012, 09:03 PM
love With Teeth... last good NIN album throughout for me
i found Year Zero to be a bit boring and rarely ever listen to it
i listen to The Slip more so than Year Zero.

Conan The Barbarian
11-24-2012, 11:03 PM
^ says the guy with the survivalism avi :)

DigitalChaos
11-26-2012, 04:08 PM
Bleedthrough is a theme that still exists in With Teeth: he mentions a desire for the audio to bleed through different tracks, and so we have all the songs mentioning each other, sharing phrases and even mentioning PHM (in the case of Only). I keep forgetting to write up a master post for how all the songs link.
I went to click "like this post" only to realize I liked it many months ago. DO THIS!!!

screwdriver
11-26-2012, 07:06 PM
Remember back when the original Bleedthrough concept was supposedly inspired by this book?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lathe_of_Heaven

http://www.ninwiki.com/images/b/b1/2004_05_07Questions9.gif

Like Adam Willis there, I read the book inspired by the original postings. It was an interesting book. I'm glad that the album wasn't a conceptual telling of that story, though.

buckaroo
11-26-2012, 09:13 PM
even though i have a strong connection to the pretty hatemachine through downward spiral era ,for nostalgic reasons, i would be the mostinterested in hearing unreleased material and demos from with teeth (secondonly to the fragile of course). with teethis a little odd. i feel like the middleof the album is sort of weak, but in the end it has some of trent's best work hands down (all the love in theworld, the line begins to blur, besides you in time, right where it belongs,home, non-entity). i think it suffersfrom being too safe at times. even tradinga couple tracks for the b-side would have done wonders in my opinion. considering how great the b-sides are for thatalbum i would love to hear more. i justfeel like it could have been so much more if it had leaned a little more on the"artsy" side and had a bit grittier sound. still love it though.

screwdriver
11-26-2012, 10:32 PM
out of curiousity, which b-sides are you thinking of? home is really strong, I agree, but non-entity is sort of eh and the less said about not so pretty now the better...

Final Destiny
11-26-2012, 11:33 PM
I think Home and Non-Entity would've worked well on the album, personally.

eversonpoe
11-27-2012, 12:02 AM
Like Adam Willis there, I read the book inspired by the original postings. It was an interesting book. I'm glad that the album wasn't a conceptual telling of that story, though.

there are two film versions of it, as well. the original (made in the 70s) was amazing, the remake was decent. if you enjoyed the book, check out the movie.

buckaroo
11-27-2012, 06:45 AM
out of curiousity, which b-sides are you thinking of? home is really strong, I agree, but non-entity is sort of eh and the less said about not so pretty now the better...

home and non-entity. i think those 2 songs are better than the majority of the actual album and really seemed to fit with the vibe of the better tracks on it. i agree that not so pretty now is pretty weak. i wonder if there are outtakes from those sessions in the same vein as home and non-entity.

screwdriver
11-27-2012, 02:35 PM
home and non-entity. i think those 2 songs are better than the majority of the actual album and really seemed to fit with the vibe of the better tracks on it. i agree that not so pretty now is pretty weak. i wonder if there are outtakes from those sessions in the same vein as home and non-entity. interesting. disagree about them being stronger than majority of album, except Home is damn fine... I think its an incredibly muscular, impressive sounding album, excepting the collector, which is a totally killer sounding song but the lyrics hurt my soul. Oddly enough, I think "Only" feels TOTALLY out of place, sonically speaking, even though I love the shit out of the song

neorev
11-29-2012, 02:34 PM
^ says the guy with the survivalism avi :)

ahahah touche

it was the best avatar! :P

i wish we could upload our own avatars instead

jessamineny
11-29-2012, 03:11 PM
Donate $5 to the site and you can. Go to Settings and then Paid Subscriptions. Settings is then where you can upload your own avatar.

screwdriver
12-09-2012, 01:34 PM
Out of curiosity, has anyone come up with where home and non-entity might fit into a with teeth hypothetical album? I guess Home went after Sunspots on vinyl, but I really like the Sunspots into The Line Begins to Blur. I could see Non-Entity going after THTF, maybe swapping out Only for Home.

_incoma_
12-10-2012, 11:24 AM
Non-Entity Makes sense Between With Teeth and Only to me at least.

screwdriver
12-10-2012, 02:21 PM
Non-Entity Makes sense Between With Teeth and Only to me at least.

interesting -- I tried putting it after You Know What You Are and it worked well. I'll give it a shot. The mixing on Non-Entity distracts me, as it sounds sort of unfinished compared to the rest of the album -- ninwiki says Alan Moulder mixed, does anyone know the source for that? curious as to when...

Home between Sunspots and TLBTB as on the vinyl surprised me by working pretty well.

joplinpicasso
12-11-2012, 03:16 PM
Love With Teeth.

Final Destiny
12-11-2012, 03:20 PM
interesting -- I tried putting it after You Know What You Are and it worked well. I'll give it a shot. The mixing on Non-Entity distracts me, as it sounds sort of unfinished compared to the rest of the album -- ninwiki says Alan Moulder mixed, does anyone know the source for that? curious as to when...

Home between Sunspots and TLBTB as on the vinyl surprised me by working pretty well.
Do we know if Non-Entity and Not So Pretty Now were mixed at the same time as the rest of the album? Trent might've shipped them off for a quick mix so they'd be ready for the NIN/JA sampler.

jmtd
12-11-2012, 03:51 PM
Do we know if Non-Entity and Not So Pretty Now were mixed at the same time as the rest of the album? Trent might've shipped them off for a quick mix so they'd be ready for the NIN/JA sampler.

I always assumed they were recorded and mixed at the NIN/JA tour time… but the studio pictures could just have been mixing sessions.

butter_hole
12-11-2012, 03:53 PM
I always assumed they were recorded and mixed at the NIN/JA tour time… but the studio pictures could just have been mixing sessions.the studio pictures were the recordings of the JA tracks.

fillow
12-12-2012, 04:52 AM
The songs were definitely recorded during WT sessions. Non-Entity even credits Dave Grohl on drums. Not sure about mixing though.

screwdriver
12-12-2012, 01:48 PM
The songs were definitely recorded during WT sessions. Non-Entity even credits Dave Grohl on drums. Not sure about mixing though.

yeah, ninwiki says moulder mixed but there is no source provided. curious!

millhouse
09-11-2013, 02:14 AM
Does anyone have any information regarding the initial release of the With Teeth-era rehearsals? There were a couple of sets of 3 tracks, a 15 track set, and a 14 track set, along with a few others IIRC.

Anyone remember?

wunderpanda
09-11-2013, 02:25 AM
Does anyone have any information regarding the initial release of the With Teeth-era rehearsals? There were a couple of sets of 3 tracks, a 15 track set, and a 14 track set, along with a few others IIRC.

Anyone remember?

http://www.reflectinginthechrome.com/shows/2005/2005rehearsals.html these?

millhouse
09-11-2013, 02:35 AM
http://www.reflectinginthechrome.com/shows/2005/2005rehearsals.html these?

Yup, those. I'm of the understanding (from a non-RITC released version of them) that there was a set of 3 tracks, a set of 6, a set of 14, and a set of 15.

I'm wondering the order of release, as the old thread on the old ETS is long gone...

wunderpanda
09-11-2013, 02:42 AM
i still have the original order, i can send a pm in a few minits

millhouse
09-11-2013, 02:47 AM
i still have the original order, i can send a pm in a few minits

Thanks! Much appreciated.

wunderpanda
09-11-2013, 02:55 AM
ok, the list on RITC is in order actually.

Gave Up to Sin was the first set of 15
Eraser to Big Come Down was set of 14
Only to Hurt was set of 6
and the last 3 are a set also

i see that there wasn't a track 8 in the set of 14 i have, but the tracks still line up with RITC, guess i labeled wrong

millhouse
09-11-2013, 03:14 AM
ok, the list on RITC is in order actually.

Gave Up to Sin was the first set of 15
Eraser to Big Come Down was set of 14
Only to Hurt was set of 6
and the last 3 are a set also

i see that there wasn't a track 8 in the set of 14 i have, but the tracks still line up with RITC, guess i labeled wrong

No track 8 for set 2 in my files either. Unless you distributed it, i'd say its a mixup from the original source, or whoever redid the id3 data.

Thanks for your help!

screwdriver
09-11-2013, 09:21 AM
I'm resurrecting this thread (as opposed to a new one) because I popped in With Teeth today and just wanted to opine that it is so criminally underrated. When this thing is loud, I think 13 hard punches to the face is spot on. I think its the last NIN album I liked unreservedly. it makes me long for TR to get back to writing pop songs.

hey, wow, my wish came true! Hestitation Marks is the first NIN album since With Teeth that I like unreservedly! Hooray!
(Thanks to whoever just clicked "like" on this post and reminded me of its existence.)

LeviSnuts
09-11-2013, 09:38 AM
No track 8 for set 2 in my files either. Unless you distributed it, i'd say its a mixup from the original source, or whoever redid the id3 data.

Thanks for your help!

IIRC there was one song that was never leaked from the rehearsals