Death, Dying and Grief

[elevenism]

I think that this thread could be useful in a number of ways. We all lose people, and if people wish to talk about it, we can do so here.
But i must admit that my ulterior motive for making this thread is selfish.

I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder when i was pretty damn young. I take my meds, and i'm on the hottest new ones (that's literally what i asked my new doctor for when i moved here and she obliged ;) )

Lately, the most troublesome symptoms have come in the form of deep depression and crippling anxiety. And almost without exception, the unwanted thought processes and feelings involve death, aging, and mortality. For instance, my mother is 57 and i am TERRIFIED of losing her. My wife has hep c, and while we are actively trying to get her hooked up with the right assistance program for a cure, it could still kill her. And the bottom line is, they will both die no matter what happens.

For me, losing either of them would be the most godawful thing imaginable. I fear that i would start drinking again and drink till it killed me.

Does anyone else here have similar thought processes, like, more than you think should be appropriate?
Also, most everyone on this board seems to be an atheist. What do you guys believe about death?
I identify as christian because i am an altruist and i have always just SENSED the presence of a creative force, a life force, but i DAMN sure don't think that i'm "a goin' to heaven" when i die and that others will go to hell.
I don't have a fucking CLUE what happens when we die. I DEEPLY envy the faith of those who hold strong convictions regarding these issues and are able to get comfort from their ironclad beliefs.

In the past 15 months or so, i've lost 3 dear, dear friends. Another is "fighting" for his life against cancer, and still another is living on the streets as a junkie to deal with the suicide of his wife (who was one of the "dear friends.")

I can deal with the death of friends. It hurts bad, and i've lost a disproportionate number for my age due to previous lifestyle choices.
But pondering my own death, or more poignantly, the shortness and fragility of the amount of LIFE i have left, takes up an absurd amount of my thought life.
And pondering the inevitable deaths of the two women who are close to me sends me frantically looking for my xanax prescription, and it happens 2-3 times a day.

How do people do it, just go through life without constantly thinking about the death sentence hanging over all of our heads?

I'm asking you guys because you are most definitely collectively smarter and more insightful than my facebook friends ;)

[kel]

interesting thread. i lost my brother last year to an overdose and both of my mom's parents died the year before. her grief has been intense and hasn't even begun to let up. that's been the hardest part, watching it consume her. she's 69 and i worry that the heaviness on her heart will make her so sick that she'll accelerate her own mortality.

[allegro]

Don't dwell on the future because worrying about it won't change a damned thing and you might miss out on enjoying the NOW.

Buddha teaches that we are here to live and to die; dying teaches us to LIVE. If all you think about is dying, you are not living.

[Timinator]

My parents - and their parents - always had good attitudes about death. When elderly relatives were dying we'd go see them in a respectful, not fearful, way. My mom did hospice work. I was taught that death happens and it was just one of those things that happens in life. My grandparents all passed when I was in my early 20s and I was sad, but it did not destroy me. I was a pallbearer for one.

I was brought up Christian, and so didn't fear death because good stuff was meant to happen after.

But I've since become atheist. And I don't ever think about my own death, even though I'm 46 now. Mostly because I have a son who's under 2.

I've never been the kind of person to dwell. Not on death, not on anything. I process thoughts quickly, develop an attitude to things, and that's it. I revisit those attitudes if things change. But if there's no change to the premises I formed my views on I don't mull them over and worry about them. That just seems like a pointless waste of mental cycles to me.

I feel I'm very lucky to be so rational in my approach to life and death.

[allegro]

You're not "lucky" -- You CHOOSE to look at it that way, we can all CHOOSE to look at it that way. Dwelling on it or not dwelling on it is a conscious choice that we make.

I've been a pallbearer for two funerals, and I've done the eulogy for two (one for my own brother).

Somebody once told me that life is like a roll of toilet paper: The closer you get the end, the faster it goes.

[botley]

One of the closest friends I've ever had as an adult died three days ago. She fought several bouts with cancer, and only turned 40 years old a few weeks ago. The last night I saw her was at the birthday party, in fact, in her apartment. We did have a great time, but she was in and out of consciousness, and clearly in discomfort or pain while awake. So... not an unexpected passing.

Still, getting the news was... just... awful. It really hurt. It made me go a little crazy, especially because I'm currently working on a production of a play where about 2/3rds of the team were all really close friends of hers (she worked as a stage manager, and was probably the best one I've ever encountered in ten years of professional theatre experience). Tonight's our first show with an audience, and I dedicate my work on it to her memory.

I feel like there's no written expression that encapsulates the breadth of feelings of this week. What happened to her spirit, her light? It can't be gone. We had another party in her memory, on the beach last night. The wind off the lake was cold, but the bonfire was wonderfully warm. Rest well D.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v449/botley/12074869_10101211912930291_3677726092433516703_n_z psoi3fz5ah.jpg

[elevenism]

One of the closest friends I've ever had as an adult died three days ago.
i'm sorry to hear that, brother

[botley]

Thanks. This has been balm to my soul all week.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl0GjjxepnU
[And almost the whole Odetta Sings Dylan LP is as good]

[Big Fat Matt]

As a former junkie, I'm used to people dying around me. It kinda doesn't bug me anymore. I mean, when my old dog died a few years back I bawled my eyes out like a lil' kid. Dogs are different because they're dogs (flawless logic, I know). I'm at the point where literally all of my friends from high school are dead or in prison, and I've become jaded to the idea of death. I mean, I'm 26 and I have a Will. I know 40 year olds with wives and kids that don't have so much as a trust.

Being dead seems like fun. You don't have to deal with all the assholes you see when you're alive.[/sarcasm]

[Space Suicide]

I've been lucky for most of my life (25 years now) to never have to deal with any of these issues. That was until earlier this year when my grandfather (mother's father) died in May unexpectedly due to a freak illness that crept up out of nowhere. I have seen him and my grandmother almost every day for the past 20 years. We were so close. Anyways, I mostly kept composure during the entire ordeal, even when he was in the hospital after falling down in the driveway of my grandparents house. He was in a medically induced sleep so they could run more tests of what was ailing him (he had been suffering being sick from random things for nearly 3 months at that point). Things didn't look good. I never fully got upset or emotional until when I visited him one on one. Seeing him hooked up to all the machinery was heartbreaking and made me super uneasy. I lasted about 3 minutes before I had to leave. He died about a few days later when he was taken off life support. After all their tests the doctors NEVER did a cat scan until it was too late. He had pneumonia the entire time. Not a SINGLE doctor or medical professional could figure it out for 2 months. That was ridiculous...anyways off topic...

I was fine at the viewing and seeing as he was cremated I had no issues picking up the urn. I also have no issues now with his absence or what happened during it all. The last time I seen him when it was alive was at their house on his 79th birthday 2 weeks prior. Was a good memory to leave on. :)

As for everything, it was a tornado of shit so it kinda blurred together from one event to the other. I know I don't have any issues now with him being gone but I know eventually it will hit me and it will hit me hard. I dread that day.

As for my own death one day, I am in no fear. it's part of the cycle of life. I just hope when that day comes I am fulfilled with my life and the people in it.

I assume I stayed on topic to what this thread's intentions were to be.

[Fragile Teeth]

Lost my mom a few years ago. It hurts most because even if someone couldn't fill the void no one gives a shit to even try.

To others it's like it didn't even happen.

[elevenism]

As a former junkie, I'm used to people dying around me.
Dude, i know the feeling. I'm 35.
And it's not just overdoses. There's been a sprinkling of suicides in there too, because most of us were doing all those drugs to hide pain, you know?

I am actually living the cliche where half my friends are in prison and half are dead.

For me though, it still hurts, although ostensibly, not as much as it does other people. I see people start tearing up when discussing a long dead friend and feel like there's something wrong with me.
But i think that it's just our lifestyles.
Fucking warzone...waging a war for serenity, you know?

[elevenism]

Lost my mom a few years ago. It hurts most because even if someone couldn't fill the void no one gives a shit to even try.

To others it's like it didn't even happen.
Sorry for double post, but i am so sorry Fragile Teeth .
I am terrified of losing my mom. She is the best friend i've ever had and i love her so fucking much.
I can't imagine.
She's like 58 and i am HOPING to have plenty more years with her, but you never know.

[allegro]

I am terrified of losing my mom. She is the best friend i've ever had and i love her so fucking much.
I can't imagine.
She's like 58 and i am HOPING to have plenty more years with her, but you never know.
My brother died at 35, when my mom was 60. Why are you so certain that you will outlive your mom? None of us knows when our ticket will be punched, not even you. My mom and I actually talk about when one of us dies; she swears she will give me "signs" that she is still around, but the mere thought of my going first sends her into tailspins. But I am a firm believer that trying to mentally prepare for it is better than sticking your head in the sand.

When I worked at the funeral home, there was this young Hispanic couple whose baby daughter was stillborn. The mother came in and met with our female funeral director, Sarah, and the mother brought the baby's intended Christening gown, and the mother helped bathe and dress the baby (after the baby had already been embalmed by Sarah) and then the immediate family came in (dad, grandparents) and they took turns holding the baby and taking photos with the baby in her Christening gown. And this may seem macabre, but it was healing for them, it was a way to love the baby and to say goodbye and to record these only moments with their baby.

A few times, young Mexican children from the community had died and the parents dressed them, each time, in the customary beautiful colorful long funeral gowns, both boys and girls. I had to unlock and open the funeral home each morning, turn on all the lights, and sometimes I would realize that it was just me and them (except for the owners who lived in the Victorian home, upstairs) and I would take a moment to note the peace of it all.

A few times, there were Buddhist services with monks and soft music and food for the deceased to take with them to the afterlife. And there was a crematory in the building next door and their custom required that they witness their loved one being put into the crematory (in the absence of a funeral pyre) so there was a musical procession from the service to the crematory.


Lost my mom a few years ago. It hurts most because even if someone couldn't fill the void no one gives a shit to even try.

To others it's like it didn't even happen.
That's sad, I hope you meet somebody someday who changes that. Because that can happen.

[elevenism]

@allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) , i'm NOT certain that i will outlive my mom-just terrified of it, even though that's insanely selfish of me. Parents shouldn't have to bury their children.
And i am so, so sorry that you lost your brother so young :(
You told me awhile back in this thread that "If all you think about is dying, you are not living." and believe it or not, that axiom/allegroism became a bit of a mantra for me and all but cured my morbid terror. So thank you :) hugs.
And while i'm not "sticking my head in the sand," mentally preparing myself spins me off into a depression too black for words.

I spent a lot of time around death, working as a CNA/PCT. Most of my 5 years of work was spent in nursing homes and included more than a little hospice care. I too was fascinated by the various cultural and personal responses to death.Of course, the gig had teeth. I remember learning that a woman who died on my day off had died crying out for me. It was emotionally draining work for the few of us who still cared deeply (many didn't.)
The dying gave me wisdom and knowledge. I learned about the afterlife from people who were nearing it and some who swore up and down that they were passing in and out of it, and i learned about life from those facing the end of it.
The hardest thing about that work is the fact that MOST of the patients did not receive visits. But i gave them as much of me as i could. It's all about compassion and dare i say, cosmic love?
I will stop talking about this now. I could go on forever-hell, i could write a fucking BOOK on the subject. I only brought it up because of your funeral home work-i thought it formed an interesting parallel.
You spent time with the families after the decedent had ascended. I spent time with them BEFORE, dealing with their anxieties and fears.
You spent time with the dead, i spent time with the dying. Then i quite literally handed them off to you guys-PHYSICALLY! :p
What i learned from this experience is that, above all, what really matters in the end is love.

[allegro]

elevenism, go back and read that old post: those weren't my words, they were the Buddha's (paraphrased). :)

Parents "should not have to" bury their children, but they do all the time; hospitals and hospices are filled with dying babies and children. Parents lose children all day, every single day. Children should not have to bury their parents, either, because that isn't exactly a pleasant experience. (Btw, the kids who were at the funeral home died in tragic accidents, not from illnesses, except for that stillborn; yeah, maybe some of the people in your hospice were passed off to the funeral home, but a lot of people at the funeral home came right from the hospital, the street, all over the place, it's a really rough business.)

I didn't say that YOU have your head in the sand (in reading that sentence, I don't know how you could even get that unless you always pull yourself out of each sentence when I was talking about my mother), but a lot of people do when it comes to death. I worked at an office with a woman who cared for her adult son who had severe cerebral palsy and she was his primary caregiver but she worked full time and she was in her 60s. Her adult daughter, in her 40s, was her backup caregiver. And I'd ask this woman (who was also a friend), who would care for her son when she passed away? Had she made any arrangements? And her answer, in her southern drawl, was always: "Well, that's simple: I don't ever plan on dying." And then she died of emphysema without a will or any provisions for her son at all, and left her daughter holding the bag as far as EVERYTHING. And that was really fucking stupid and selfish. This woman had a house, and left that to her daughter, but a lot of these speciality homes for disabled adults have legacy waiting lists that are YEARS long. And her daughter now had this huge burden.

I did estate planning for many years and it's amazing how many people would come in, spend HOURS discussing the provisions of wills or trusts, then freak out and not come in to SIGN the will or trust because they thought that meant they were gonna die.

Um, yeah, we are ALL gonna die.

[elevenism]

I didn't say that YOU have your head in the sand (in reading that sentence, I don't know how you could even get that unless you always pull yourself out of each sentence when I was talking about my mother),

that i do, allegro ;) honestly it's just that you've given me a lot of good advice. so when you are talking about something you did or "a lot of people" do, i'm usually gonna try it on, you know what i mean? especially when we both have aging mothers, mine being a bit younger but in bad health.

[allegro]

that i do, allegro ;) honestly it's just that you've given me a lot of good advice. so when you are talking about something you did or "a lot of people" do, i'm usually gonna try it on, you know what i mean? especially when we both have aging mothers, mine being a bit younger but in bad health.

Mine is 77 so she's already approaching the average life expectancy for a female in 2015 (82), with two leaky heart valves and controlled high blood pressure, although she knows my biggest concern is her balance and falling (a big cause of death in aging people), and my mom is in pretty good shape for her age, trying to walk 10,000 steps per day and stuff. She's already fallen down a few times and hurt herself. I can only do the daily "wellness checks" and shuttle her around to various appointments and make sure she's taking her meds and eating properly and all that stuff.

A friend of ours had a mom who was 92 and still insisted on living alone out in the sticks, and they TRIED to get her to wear one of those "Life Alert" things but she refused. Sure enough, they went a few days without checking her and she'd had a stroke and was lying on the ground for two whole days, alive but extremely dehydrated, etc. She ended up in hospice and they pulled the plug. THAT'S what I'm trying to avoid at this point. You have 20 years until you get to that point, though.

[Camille]

Interesting thread. My mum died at 49 years old due to cancer.

I now work in a cancer hospice. People there are at the final stages of their lives. Most patients have between hours to weeks to live. Death happens there almost every day. The first week of my employment there, there were thirteen deaths in five days. Other times there can be whole weeks go past with no deaths.

I find it interesting that a lot of patients want visits from the in house chaplain when they are close to death. The amount of times I hear a person say "I've never been religious but......" when they are near to dying.

I get people saying to me that I must get used to people dying (a nurse, doctor or assistant has to be present at every death if possible) but I don't. Most of the time it's peaceful as the patient is unconscious, but sometimes it's not pleasant at all. I have been present at countless deaths, and it's something I'll never get used to.

[allegro]

Yeah, I don't know how anybody could quite "get used to" that, although it's a necessary thing.

There was this funeral director guy I worked with who was third generation, they used to call them "morticians" but now the term is funeral director. And you have to go to a special college for that, and I know I could never do that, embalm people and all that stuff, but it's beyond that, it's also counseling people during their biggest time of grief, and it's also like coordinating a wedding, but you have a few days to do it, and the person is dead:

Flowers and info re local florists, pictures to display in the room and on art easels, newspapers to contact, music, the military color guard if applicable, sometimes I had to contact bagpipers to show in up two days, restaurant reservations for after-funeral banquets (we had a giant binder full of local restaurant banquet menus), etc. We even produced the newfangled tribute DVDs, where the family gives you a bunch of photos of their loved one and you scan all of them (usually in the copy machine which sends digital files to the computer) and then you load the music the family told you was the loved one's favorite and you use this special software and VOILA, tribute DVD that does Ken Burns affect if you want, or all kinds of special affects, and you play the DVD on all of the TVs in the funeral home room, and then you can burn copies and send them home with the family. And this was in addition to casket or urn selection, cemetery arrangements, prayer card selection, prayer selection, coordination with churches, etc.

Anyway, this guy, Sean, had worked with his dad since he was FIFTEEN, working part time doing stuff like helping to disinter people at the cemetery and stuff, hardcore shit, and then working his way up and then going to mortuary school, etc. AND HE EMBALMED HIS OWN DAD. I asked him wtf possessed him that he'd do that, and he said he thought he would do it better than anybody else, although in hindsight he regretted the decision because, yeah, it was probably too hardcore, and he discovered his dad had lung cancer and had been hiding it from all of them. Sean, btw, was an example of how funeral directors are SOME OF THE FUNNIEST PEOPLE ON THE PLANET. I mean, I'm talking STAND UP COMEDIAN, HERE. I guess with a job like that, maybe you HAVE TO BE.

But when these little kids died, Sean had three little kids of his own at home, and I wondered how he could do it. Sean was one of the only guys in the area who would take people with AIDS back in the day, when everybody else would refuse; he was a real stand-up guy, really caring, in a business where you really have to bury your feelings and be professional. But he said he didn't handle the kids; he passed those off to one of the other funeral directors, and they understood.

[Camille]

^ A job for ​life.

[elevenism]

Interesting thread. My mum died at 49 years old due to cancer.

I now work in a cancer hospice. People there are at the final stages of their lives. Most patients have between hours to weeks to live. Death happens there almost every day. The first week of my employment there, there were thirteen deaths in five days. Other times there can be whole weeks go past with no deaths.

I find it interesting that a lot of patients want visits from the in house chaplain when they are close to death. The amount of times I hear a person say "I've never been religious but......" when they are near to dying.

I get people saying to me that I must get used to people dying (a nurse, doctor or assistant has to be present at every death if possible) but I don't. Most of the time it's peaceful as the patient is unconscious, but sometimes it's not pleasant at all. I have been present at countless deaths, and it's something I'll never get used to. Camille , i don't know about you, but i felt almost CALLED to taking care of dying people the way i assume people feel called to the ministry.
I'm about as sensitive as it gets, so even though i got "used to it" to a degree, it was still hard. I get attached to people.
I worked at various different types of facilities, but most of them had some hospice and some "residents."
The hospice people you EXPECTED to die. It was the "residents" who would shock you.
I was working on a locked alzheimer's unit where there was a dude who was pretty damn lucid, and we watched the dallas mavericks together in the evenings when most of the people were asleep. We had been watching it together for months.
One day the game was about to come on and i went to get him, and he was gone. GONE gone, you know? I'm not gonna lie, i cried a little. I expected that motherfucker to outlive ME.
They tell you not to get attached but i couldn't help it.

SO...i felt called to do that work. And 5 years in, i suddenly felt that i wasn't supposed to be there anymore.
So i went into sales. I guess what i'm saying is, maybe you are SUPPOSED to be there, but maybe you aren't supposed to be there forever you know?

One more little story...i was working at a long term sub acute care hospital called kindred. i always joked that it was for people who went on hospice and changed their minds. it was FUCKED up. It's the kind of hospital where nursing home patients go.
There was this new patient. His body was covered in terribly painful necrotic areas, the poor bastard. I don't know what else had happened to him, but apparently he hadn't talked or eaten in or even been conscious for like 2 weeks. Nobody had told ME that though.
I went in and started to do my thing, bathing him, shaving his face, changing the linens etc. About halfway through he opened his eyes and we started shooting the shit. He asked for peaches and rootbeer so i went and got him some.

When his family walked in, they looked as if they had seen a ghost. His wife was sobbing, the grown kids were choking up and everyone was declaring it a miracle. He said "Hey everyone, i want you to meet my new friend tyler!"
They called his extended family and everyone came to see him. Those people were truly in awe-it was crazy. The dude wasn't expected to regain consciousness. To this day i don't know why it happened, but the family thought it must have been some kind of metaphysical connection between he and i.
I don't doubt it.

He died a week later, but he died having said goodbye to EVERYONE.
And i think that THAT was the most important thing i've ever done in my life.

[allegro]

[MENTION=2030]One more little story...i was working at a long term sub acute care hospital called kindred. i always joked that it was for people who went on hospice and changed their minds. it was FUCKED up. It's the kind of hospital where nursing home patients go.
Ugh, G's dad was in a Kindred facility and the one he was in was pretty fucked up. He was on a respirator and couldn't talk, natch, and needed a buzzer to call anybody. A night nurse took his buzzer away and split. The night staff would just sit there at the counter eating snacks, didn't want to be bothered. My father-in-law wrote a note to me saying he was in terrible pain, he had been crying. He told me to go to Ace Hardware, buy a small hammer, and bring it to him, so when the night staff took his buzzer, HE'D HAVE A FUCKING HAMMER. Needless to say, we transferred him out of that Hell hole.

That's a cool story, though. You never know!

Did you ever read about Oscar the Cat (http://www.odditycentral.com/animals/oscar-the-nursing-home-cat-who-can-sense-death-coming.html)?

[Baphomette]

So, my friend and neighbor (wife of friend who recently died) refuses to get rid of his hospital bed. She sleeps in it every night. She's asked me to come over a couple of times but I've refused because I don't want to see that fucking bed. My brain has thankfully been able to blur out the horrible images of his final two days and I don't want to be reminded about them at all. I know what I'm feeling is NOWHERE near the vicinity of what she's feeling but I just can't... Am I a complete asshole for not trying to push past it?

[Khrz]

Am I a complete asshole for not trying to push past it?

If there's one thing I learned these last weeks, it's that everyone's coping as they can, and although you have to respect that, they have to understand that your own mechanisms may be different. Some people need to hold on the tiniest memorabilia, some need to get rid of it. Some need to fulfill and finish every ongoing plans they had with the person they lost, some need to start over from scratch.
There's no "right way" to deal with that, you do what works for you, what feels right, and need to let the others do it their own way, even if it feels preposterous.

[allegro]

So, my friend and neighbor (wife of friend who recently died) refuses to get rid of his hospital bed. She sleeps in it every night. She's asked me to come over a couple of times but I've refused because I don't want to see that fucking bed. My brain has thankfully been able to blur out the horrible images of his final two days and I don't want to be reminded about them at all. I know what I'm feeling is NOWHERE near the vicinity of what she's feeling but I just can't... Am I a complete asshole for not trying to push past it?
I know people who had the hospice hospital bed in their home, often right in the living room, and I know that for a long time it still smells like them. So she is probably sleeping in the bed because it smells like him and she wants to be "with" him and his scent for as long as it lingers. It won't forever, it will dissipate. And that hospital supply place will want the bed back. But she needs this time to continue to cling to what remains of her husband for as long as it's there.

[Khrz]

The thing is, as long as you're saying goodbye, it means that the person's still there, somehow.
The next harder step is to let go, accept that the person is gone, and stop doing all those tiny farewell rituals. I don't know if it's the hardest part, but it sure can be the longest...

[allegro]

She certainly isn't "ready," yet. It's way too soon for her, most likely.

[Dra508]

The thing is, as long as you're saying goodbye, it means that the person's still there, somehow.
The next harder step is to let go, accept that the person is gone, and stop doing all those tiny farewell rituals. I don't know if it's the hardest part, but it sure can be the longest...
And as you said, everyone has their own process. A friend of mine's Dad died a couple of years ago and her Mom is still mourning - like serious, painful loneliness even though she is surrounded by friends and family. She was married to this man for over 50 years and nursed him through his last years of Alzheimer's yet still she blogs gut wrenching prose about how much she misses her Herbie. On the other hand, my x father in law was practically dating after his wife died, again after 50 years of marriage and nursing her for the last couple years of her life.

I totally get the smell thing that @allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) mentioned. When I was on a long distance relationship, I would not wash a t-shirt he left for days after he visited just cause it still smelled like him.

[allegro]

My stepfather died 3 years ago this Christmas, and my Mom hasn't gotten over it at all. At all. She's trying really hard, all kinds of methods, but she's still in a lot of pain, misses him all day every day. The love of her life, over 40 years. It's a pain that doesn't really heal, it just dulls a little but the loneliness never goes away at all for her. I keep hoping we'll find her another guy to fill that void, but nobody will ever be as good as him.

[Camille]

@Camille (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=2030) , i don't know about you, but i felt almost CALLED to taking care of dying people the way i assume people feel called to the ministry.
I'm about as sensitive as it gets, so even though i got "used to it" to a degree, it was still hard. I get attached to people.

I get you with the being "called" as it were. I worked in offices for years. After my mum died I knew I wanted to work in care, specifically cancer care. A few years ago I did the necessary college course and exams for health care, and here I am, 3 years in and still enjoying it.

I'm with you with regards to getting attached to people too. Most of the time I can disconnect from the job, but there are times when I have thought of and worried about certain people back at home. Sometimes when I return to work...they are gone. It's tough...emotionally.

[Jinsai]

Just found out that an old friend of mine died today. Not sure what happened, and it seems like most of his family are just finding out about it now via social media, and it's naturally all very depressing. He just had a daughter a couple years ago.

[Khrz]

Woke up in the middle of the night after dreaming that we were all making preparations for his wedding.

I feared the nightmares, but dreams are so much fucking worse. "Hey look how everything's happy and you're all laughing and ahahhaa NOT"
Thank you brain, I'm doing my best to hold on and not linger on it for too long while avoiding the trap of trying to internalize everything, but yeah ruining my nights is probably way healthier.

And I should be thankful, I guess, it's all part of the acceptance process, piece by piece I realize the reality of it (which, we're all aware, will take at least a full cycle of family gatherings such as birthdays, christmas and such for us to eventually understand that he's just not there anymore). Still feels like shit though.

[Jinsai]

I'm sorry for your loss Khrz. I wish I had something else I could say, but I can't claim to know what you're going through. To some degree though I can understand, and I know you will find some peace with all this. In time everything makes more sense, but it takes time.

[Khrz]

Thanks man. Honestly this thread just feels like the perfect place to vent and articulate what I'm going through. The only one in fact. Facebook is filled with people sharing my grief, and although sharing our pain is part of the process, doing it there just doesn't feel right.
Having this thread to express all of this allows me to "act normal" in the rest of the board, and discuss the general subject with people who know what it's like, and need to know there are others out there going through the same pain and steps...

[allegro]

FWIW, for a long time after my brother died, I used to dream of my brother when he was really sick in hospice, or what he looked like just after he died, weighing only 75 pounds at 6 feet tall, and in the dream he was hot with a fever and rolled up in blankets and he'd never talk in these dreams because he couldn't talk in real life, and those dreams were HORRIBLE for me for a long time. I knew things were getting better for me when I would be going through a tough time and I'd dream of my brother and he wasn't sick, anymore, and he'd hug me or just kind of "hang out" or things would be "normal." I guess I'm always hoped maybe he was "visiting" me in my dream. Somehow, they were comforting because after a while I stopped dreaming about my brother at all and now I dream about him very rarely so when I do dream about him, I'm very glad.

My best friend's niece died in a tragic motorcycle accident this past summer, she was 22, was a passenger on the motorcycle. And my friend was here at my house on Thanksgiving and she said she had a dream about her niece, that in the dream her niece was dancing and dancing. And my friend remembered, in her dream, a DVD the family had of a compilation of videos they had all taken of her niece, dancing. And she thought, in her dream, "oh no, where is that DVD? we have to find that DVD." And that next day, her sister called her (niece's mom) and before my friend could even say anything about the dream, the sister said that she happened upon the DVD of the niece dancing. Which really freaked my friend out, but sometimes I wonder about these dreams and if they are messages from the other side. Don't know.

None of it makes any "sense" but you just go with it, I guess. I feel for you, Khrz, it's very hard.

[Dra508]

I once had a dream about my long dead grandmother. She was alive and happy in the dream. I remember waking up and feeling really good about getting another chance to interact with her. Maybe she was reaching out from the other side.

[Khrz]

I guess I'm always hoped maybe he was "visiting" me in my dream. Somehow, they were comforting because after a while I stopped dreaming about my brother at all and now I dream about him very rarely so when I do dream about him, I'm very glad.

I'm very careful with what I say about such things lately. Friends of his have seen shooting stars the day before the burial, some other have noted a sun ray going down on his casket at the cemetery. Lots of people saying things such as "he's proud of us", "we'll see him again"...
And for a long time, being an agnostic gave me the luxury to play with those ideas, to imagine reality as I saw fit. Signs and omens, why not, what do I know after all ? It was fun to imagine such things.
Except now it just isn't funny anymore. And I don't want to hurt anyone by denying such things, because everyone needs all the comfort they can get, I don't even want to show my doubts. But I just can't play along anymore. Had I been a believer, I think it would have killed my faith, at least for a while.
I really wish my heart and mind had remained open to those ideas, I do.
Because we are making preparations for his wedding. His girlfriend is pregnant with their son, she was in there with him when he died, although she didn't see him, so now she wants to wed him posthumously, since they were planning on it. So the whole family is actually making sure my brother and his significant other get married.
And I would have seen this dream as him being there with us, getting prepared and psyched and happy. Before. Now I just can't find in my heart the strength to believe in this.
It'll come back. I'm a dreamer, always have been. But right now I just can't. And when I hear about sun rays and shooting stars, all I can do is nod and smile. It's a nice thought, it is, and I wish I could find some comfort in that.

[allegro]

Khrz, I don't believe in sun rays and shooting stars and all that stuff, either. But I do think that our own psyche plays a role in our dreams because our dreaming life is just a continuation of our conscious life. And sometimes I just wondered if maybe our dreaming life is another "realm" where maybe it could be remotely possible for somebody living on another plane of existence (not in a religious sense but maybe a metaphysical Plato's forms sense) could kind of "cross over" or something. Again, not sure, because it could be just our own subconscious dealing with our own grief, our daily lives, our plans, etc. Which is exactly what is happening to your right now. You have these wedding plans and you're dealing with them and you're dreaming about them because you're trying to "process" it.

But things like the universe and shooting stars make zero sense to me because I just don't see how our loved ones have the ABILITY to manipulate things like THAT. It's one thing to perhaps be able to "cross over" in another realm, albeit temporarily and while we're unconscious, which is far-fetched enough as it is, but TO CAUSE A SHOOTING STAR? Yeah, I'm pretty skeptical of that, too, but I think people "look" for things in their own grief, so ...

I know what you mean by keeping it to yourself, though, because when my brother died, my mother grasped at every straw, every "Rainbow Bridge" that people sent her, every wind she felt "might be him," etc. She was one of those people who wanted to write to Theresa Caputo, the "Long Island Medium" (http://www.longislandpress.com/2014/12/21/my-not-so-psychic-experience-with-long-island-medium-theresa-caputo/) on TV, and pay big bucks to "talk to my brother" etc. Because in such desperate grief, people become desperate. And it isn't that this stuff isn't fascinating to watch when it's "entertainment" on TV but, you're right, when it's your family, it's just not entertaining anymore and more pain can come from it. Especially when people want to "say goodbye" when they couldn't, or make sure their loved one is "okay" wherever they are, or finish unfinished business or all that kind of stuff. Humans tend to need "closure" and seek it wherever they can get it?

My mom still swears that sometimes she thinks she feels my stepdad lying next to her in bed. And I'm sure the combo of her sleeping medication and her missing him so much makes her really FEEL this stuff. But I don't say anything; I just shut up. If she needs that, she needs that.

[allegro]

I once had a dream about my long dead grandmother. She was alive and happy in the dream. I remember waking up and feeling really good about getting another chance to interact with her. Maybe she was reaching out from the other side.

You know, it's funny that you say that, because I was REALLY close to my maternal grandmother but after she died in the early-80s, I never dreamed about her. Ever. And a few years ago, I was going through some really rough depression and stuff. And, out of nowhere, SO MANY YEARS AFTER SHE DIED, when I could barely picture my grandmother's face, anymore, I dreamed of my grandmother. And the weirdest thing was, in the dream, my grandmother HUGGED me. And in real life, my grandmother was this German woman, the least affectionate person on the planet. But, same thing, when I woke up, I felt GREAT, like I had really been hugged by my grandmother. It was the strangest thing. It didn't matter if it was "real" or not, but I felt great. And I wished I could dream about her again.

But I never did.

[Dra508]

You know, it's funny that you say that, because I was REALLY close to my maternal grandmother but after she died in the early-80s, I never dreamed about her. Ever. And a few years ago, I was going through some really rough depression and stuff. And, out of nowhere, SO MANY YEARS AFTER SHE DIED, when I could barely picture my grandmother's face, anymore, I dreamed of my grandmother. And the weirdest thing was, in the dream, my grandmother HUGGED me. And in real life, my grandmother was this German woman, the least affectionate person on the planet. But, same thing, when I woke up, I felt GREAT, like I had really been hugged by my grandmother. It was the strangest thing. It didn't matter if it was "real" or not, but I felt great. And I wished I could dream about her again.

But I never did.

That was exactly it, except mine was lace curtain Irish. Massive liberal too. Gosh I miss her.

-Sistah from another mother

[blackholesun]

Death is something I am constantly thinking about, especially since my mom passed way too young (late 40s) last year. There's no metaphor for how hard it hit me and I'd be lying if I haven't been spiraling since. My mindset since then has been "I'm only going to be here for so long, so fuck it, I'm just going to do the things I enjoy and get as much done." This has been both a blessing and a curse. On one hand, I've really let myself go. I've stopped working out, stopped eating right, drink too much, haven't cut my hair or shaved. On the other, I've gotten a lot done with my job and have never been more immersed in my hobbies than I am now. I'm really trying to turn this around though, because I realize that if I keep going down this path, I'll end up right where my mom did. I'm still lucky, because I still have most of my health and nothing wrong with my body that can't be fixed for the time being.

I'd be lying to say I'm not scared of dying. I'm terrified. I'm terrified of losing those I love. I recently found out a friend of mine has cancer, but luckily it's treatable. My girlfriend's grandmother recently passed away and it hit her hard. I'm learning that sometimes there just isn't anything you can say or do, just be there for those who are grieving. Sometimes I feel like I'm never done grieving. It comes in waves.

This is random mess of thoughts, but I just want to say that this thread has affected me deeply after reading through it.

[elevenism]

This is random mess of thoughts, but I just want to say that this thread has affected me deeply after reading through it.

no, your thoughts ARENT a mess and reading them affected ME.
This is what i was hoping this thread would become. We can express our fears, comfort one another, and if we're comfortable enough, have a reasonably safe place to talk when we lose loved ones. I'm SO fucking sorry about your mom.

[elevenism]

ANNND number three of 3 of the best friends i've ever had just died. these three beautiful girls, all with matching blue stars tattooed on the backs of their necks, all in the past like 1.5 or 2 years.
The first two killed themselves, but the third, the one who died tonight, was so full of life and had two little girls.
Just, fucking goddamnit. i have not integrated this shit into my consciousness yet. since i don't live in dallas anymore, she had promised to come up here before the end of the year.

i can't take much more of this. It hasn't hit me yet but it's gonna HURT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws5UUPUg7V0

[botley]

That sounds unutterably awful. I'm sorry for your loss.

It may seem like a kind of cheesy indulgence, but I think having a social media gathering place for friends and family to remenisce and console each other, specifically Facebook groups dedicated to the deceased, has been surprisingly effective for me in grieving the friends I've lost so far this year.

[r_z]

I had a friend who passed away at the age of 25. We grew up together when he moved here at the age of 6. We went to the same schools, had the same circle of friends, etc. Some of my childhood memories are attached to him... like my first time going to a game, it was with him and his dad. The first time playing a computer game was with him at his aunt's (The Secret of Monkey Island). Playing soccer after school, trading cards and so on. Later, when we were older and went to parties and had our first experiences with alcohol, drugs and girls, we'd leave those events together as we lived just a few blocks away from each other.
There were a few of us who, even after school was finished and we went our seperate ways to pursue whatever dreams we had, would meet from time to time, hang out, play poker or videogames together, watch sports, drink and have a good time. At early 20 you still feel like the world belongs to you, I guess. So when his brother comitted suicide it was the first time something "real" and tragic happened to one of us. I remember him sitting next to me at one of our class reunions talking about his brother. He broke into tears and I put my arm around him for comfort...
He died a few years after his brother - it was a hot summer day and he just collapsed during a soccergame.
I realize now, that this truly marked the end of our adolescence.
He, too, was about to marry his girlfriend. They played the tango from True Lies during his funeral, which they had chosen for their wedding dance. It was heartbreaking. There were so much people there. His parents lost two of their three sons. They buried them both at the same spot and moved near the cemetry to be closer to them.
I'll be 33 this year. It's crazy to think how it's been 8 years already. I visit him from time to time. I wonder why there's still no tombstone there but a wooden cross they usually only place there until a real tombstone is being made... but there are a lot of flowers and pictures of him, his brothers and his friends...

[blake]

My condolences to those who've posted about the deaths of friends and loved ones, particularly those who lost their mother. I can relate. My mother died when I was 12, from complications during her attempted long recovery after a horrible auto accident. We all thought the worst was over, but her brain injuries eventually proved too much to overcome and she died of a stroke, officially. i was devastated then, and to some degree, still am. Fortunately, I have a large, close-knit family that provided lots of support and caring, so I was able to move through the stages of grief and eventually accept something that I could not change. Not easy to do, though. Hopefully, others will be able to do the same and make the best of their lives without dwelling on the sad parts that we all experience at times.

[eversonpoe]

one of my best friends who is like my sister (stood up on my side at my wedding) just lost her boyfriend after a two year battle with colon cancer. he got diagnosed basically right after they started dating, so it was a day they always knew was going to come. i saw her today for the first time since october, somehow, because i wanted to see her and make sure she was doing ok. all things considered, she's doing very well, especially with how fucked up his family has been treating her (blaming her for things even though she's the one who has been here, taking care of him). i know death is awful, but how they could let this bring out the worst in them and take out all of that on the person who he loved the most is beyond me.

[fillow]

Just lost my grandpa who was 83 years old. Everyone's in the family is devastated, especially my mom and aunt.
Finally he's reuniting up there with grandma, who passed 6 years ago.

[Khrz]

Today's my brother's first birthday since he died.
I haven't cried in a while, not really, but I spent two hours on his grave doing just that, listening to the music we used to listen to in his room, having a beer or two with him.
I wondered, for a couple of seconds, if drinking, smoking and pouring alcohol on a grave was considered acceptable around here, then decided that anyone who would object might as well go fuck themselves.
I think I'm going to down that nice bottle of whisky now.


i know death is awful, but how they could let this bring out the worst in them and take out all of that on the person who he loved the most is beyond me.
Yeah death does that. It's unacceptable, so some people just don't accept it. I have it easy on that regard : I have a culprit, I have a whole lot of weapons and people and ideologies to blame.
Those people, they have nothing. You can't blame cancer, cancer is not a thing anymore when all is said and done. Blaming cancer is as relieving as blaming bad luck, cancer is the "shit happens" of death.
Some people can live with that, with the fact that sometimes the people you love are just lost for no reason, and some people need a scapegoat to carry their fear and grief for them. Looks like they weren't strong enough to avoid that trap.

There were a few death around me lately, some to come too. I'm fucking glad I am in this family, and really proud of them. They welcomed anyone who loved my brother with open arms, nobody said a word about anyone, nobody was unworthy, everyone was equal in love and grief. When I see how shit can come apart fast in such cases, I'm really proud of that bunch. We're sarcastic, stubborn sons of bitches and we can be real dicks, but fuck it, we're good.

[allegro]

My dad passed away the day before Easter. I'm mostly doing okay but sometimes it hits me at the weirdest times and I cry but then it passes. It's mostly when I forget that he's not here, anymore. Like when I need the answer to a question and think, "I'll call Dad" and then realize, wait a second ...

He told me that he wanted to be cremated and to have his ashes scattered on Lake Michigan up in Ludington, Michigan. It will be a while before my half-brother and I will be able to do the scattering part.

[Khrz]

I don't know if that what you mean, but it's those moments where I go "Oh shit I really have to tell him about that book / message him about that album / ask him about that movie", followed by a sudden "oh... Right..." that are the hardest.
That sudden tug into the correct tracks when your memory tells you "dude, that's not happening anymore".

Edit : I was still writing as you elaborated. Yeah, that's exactly it. When you spend a second in the illusion that you'll still share all those things with the ones you love, until it dawns on you, again, that you lost them.

[Ryan]

I don't know if that what you mean, but it's those moments where I go "Oh shit I really have to tell him about that book / message him about that album / ask him about that movie", followed by a sudden "oh... Right..." that are the hardest.
That sudden tug into the correct tracks when your memory tells you "dude, that's not happening anymore".

That would be incredibly hard to deal with when your mind reminds you like that.

[theruiner]

My dad passed away the day before Easter. I'm mostly doing okay but sometimes it hits me at the weirdest times and I cry but then it passes. It's mostly when I forget that he's not here, anymore. Like when I need the answer to a question and think, "I'll call Dad" and then realize, wait a second ...
I'm so sorry for your loss, allegro.

The day my dad passed my phone rang and my immediate thought was, "Oh, it's probably Dad." Then I realized it wasn't my dad. And then I realized it would never be my dad again. It was a horrible feeling.

[Khrz]

That would be incredibly hard to deal with when your mind reminds you like that.

Well it is kinda like that. I'm fucking giddy at the thought of our discussion, at the prospect of sharing something cool with him, see what he thinks about it, I'm excited to know what he'll make of it, what he has in mind, there's a split second of excitement and then a full stop.

It even goes into absurd lengths when my mind goes "Oh I really have to tell him about his kid", I mean WTF.
It's like there's a radar in the back of my mind constantly scanning for his presence, and going frantic because it can't catch a blip. And each time there's something worth sharing with him, it tries harder.
I know he's dead, but there are parts of me that still need to catch up on that. I still see him in the streets, I recognize him in random people, a vague similarity in the silhouette or the clothing and I feel myself getting excited for a millisecond. I even went to see his corpse to avoid that kind of stuff because I knew it would be a nightmare and it's not even enough.
It takes an amazingly long time to get used to the fact that people don't come back. You don't even understand or accept it, death is not a place nor a thing so it's not like they're "gone". Life is all we know, so when someone isn't part of that anymore it really feels like the mind is going crazy trying to make sense of it, of the "not-being" part.

[allegro]

Edit : I was still writing as you elaborated. Yeah, that's exactly it. When you spend a second in the illusion that you'll still share all those things with the ones you love, until it dawns on you, again, that you lost them.
Yup, exactly. It's still really new for me (a little over 2 months) so it hasn't really "sunk in," yet. I handled all of the cremation arrangements so I hardened myself against a lot of the emotional aspects and Dad had been in the ICU for 2.5 months so there was the "at least he isn't suffering, anymore" aspect, but then I was pretty much avoiding my own loss. And I'm still coming to grips with that part.


I'm so sorry for your loss, allegro.
Thank you.

[richardp]

A couple of weeks ago one of my friends had a heart attack and was without a pulse for 50 minutes before being resuscitated. Over the past couple of weeks he stayed on life support in a medically induced coma. He'd shown a few signs of brain activity but somehow took a turn for the worse and so tonight he was taken off life support and I couldn't bring myself to say goodbye. We all went up and everyone else went in the room but I just couldn't do it. I couldn't let that be my final image of him. And now I can't stop beating myself up over it.

This dude was only 28. This is bullshit.

[theruiner]

I couldn't let that be my final image of him.
That is perfectly legitimate.

Right after my dad died, I decided I wanted to see his body. The hospice hadn't done anything yet, hadn't even closed his eyes. All they did was pull his blanket up a tiny bit. It was the most horrific and awful thing I have ever seen in my entire life and I wish to God I hadn't seen him that way. I know better for next time, which is such a sad thing to say, but inevitably there will be a next time, and depending on who it is and what the circumstances are, I don't know that I would want to see the person that way, either.

There's nothing wrong with feeling that way. Nothing.

[Khrz]

Yeah, everyone's grief is different and everyone deals with it their own way. It's so personal and intimate, there's no "right". You do what you're comfortable with, and do your best to not have regrets afterwards, that's all. Nobody should judge you for that, not even yourself.
You just do what you can, that's all you can do really.

[richardp]

Woke up to the news that he passed this morning. I feel like I've been hit by a fucking truck today. His girlfriend who I'm also really close to, I feel so bad for her. She lost her boyfriend & best friend, and now she lost her apartment and job, since she was expecting to be by his side during recovery. So now she's homeless with endless bills piling up.

This whole situation is the fucking worst.

[elevenism]

I've been watching my dear friend fight cancer for like a year and even though the odds seemed insurmountable, he just kept beating them.

But tonight he is being moved to hospice. I've known him literally my whole life-he and his wife were like my parent's best friends growing up, so he is kind of an uncle to me.

He was really into bluegrass music and i'm just so happy that in october, we were at a bluegrass festival at a hotel just a few rooms apart. I played guitar while his wife sang to him, an old song called Me and Reno (that being his name.)

We talked about the soul and the afterlife and goddamnit, this is sad. He wouldn't give up but i guess he finally is.

[allegro]

We talked about the soul and the afterlife and goddamnit, this is sad. He wouldn't give up but i guess he finally is.
Sometimes it's not a choice, bub. Sometimes medicine does all it can but there's just nothing more to do except them suffering for naught to stay here. The good part is that he won't be suffering, anymore; he will be at peace.

I'm really sorry about your friend; may his final days be comfortable and happy, surrounded by love.

[elevenism]

Sometimes it's not a choice, bub. Sometimes medicine does all it can but there's just nothing more to do except them suffering for naught to stay here. The good part is that he won't be suffering, anymore; he will be at peace.

I'm really sorry about your friend; may his final days be comfortable and happy, surrounded by love.

he didn't make it through the night. Goddamnit.

[allegro]

he didn't make it through the night. Goddamnit.

Sorry for your loss. You know from experience that hospice can often go mercifully fast.

[Khrz]

As so to prevent further drifting in the Joyous Thread ;) :


i understand what you mean. however, i don't think that requires a burial, simply a funeral. i think the ceremony of a funeral can be a beautiful thing, and i've always wanted mine to be a celebration of my life, not a mourning of my passing. that's a bit cliche, i know, but it's true.




Right, except funerals are a very short affair.
Now, everyone reacts to loss differently, but many people aren't ready to see their loved ones literally turn to dust mere days after their passing.

I used to think like that, I loathe religion, couldn't stand the thought of a priest blabbering on about god after briefly mentioning how much of a pretty swell fellow I was right before that car hit my bike, didn't see the point of keeping my body underground serving no purpose. Burn me, throw me away, be joyful, drink and eat my friends !

Doesn't work like that. When my maternal grandmother passed, she wanted no ceremony, no burial. She just wanted to disappear. I didn't care much for her, poor woman was pretty much depressed her whole life and consequently never really acted like she was grateful to see us. In my childish mind, it just meant she was mean, and we never really connected afterward. But her burial was the saddest, most chilling I ever saw. It was like she was rejecting everyone's love, like she didn't care about her own children's feelings.

On the other end, the ceremony for my brother's funerals was filled with family and friends, his tomb is in a park surrounded by trees and flowers. I never go, but it's a comfort to know he's somewhere, that he hasn't been completely destroyed and nowhere to be found. When his birthday came in June, I had a place to go, somewhere to sit and have a few beers, listen to the music we loved. In a generation or two, that place will be meaningless, sure. But his friends, his family, his wife, we sure are glad we still have this. Losing him was hard enough, we still need that last thread.

Of course it's all cultural. If our culture was to let the corpse decay in the open and get dealt with by carrion-eaters, that's what would make sense, that's what would comfort us. But when considering funerals and burials, I think it's important to remember that, you're the one who's dead. You're the one who has the luxury to not give a lying fuck anymore. For those who remain, who loved you and already miss you terribly, things may not be so simple. And going the "fuck it, I'm dead, be merry my friends" route may be a lot more selfish and a lot less clever than you might think.

[allegro]

Here in the U.S., more and more people are opting for cremation. It's more economical, but it is also more portable. When / if you retire to Florida, you can take your late husband with you. And each family member can have a portion of cremains. I have a small marble urn in my living room containing some of my little brother's cremains. My Mom has a sterling silver "teardrop" pendant containing some of his cremains, and she takes my brother with her on vacations, to places he had never been.

[marodi]

Yesterday, I saw a documentary on 9/11 that addresses the subject of getting back loved ones remains after the tragedy. There are interviews with family members of both sides; those who got some remains back and those who did not. I found it to be very interesting and I think some of you would like it too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPx4y-3pQbc

Don't be throw off by the title; it's not about conspiracy theories.