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cynicmuse
06-18-2015, 04:13 AM
White dude shot up (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/19/us/charleston-church-shooting.html) a black church in South Carolina during Wednesday night prayer meeting and killed at least 9 people. I hope that they catch this person quickly.

orestes
06-18-2015, 06:29 AM
This was a racially motivated attack on a historic black church in the community, so in this context, it matters to emphasize the race of the perp.

tony.parente
06-18-2015, 06:43 AM
This was a racially motivated attack on a historic black church in the community.

That's really an assumption right now, though very likely...unless the dude came clean on why he shot it up.

Lt. Randazzo
06-18-2015, 07:29 AM
Fixed that for ya.

Except that the suspect is white per the wanted sheets. Your edit is invalid. Your point is questionable.

tony.parente
06-18-2015, 08:12 AM
Except that the suspect is white per the wanted sheets. Your edit is invalid. Your point is questionable.
Except race was only added for headlines.

allegro
06-18-2015, 09:28 AM
Except race was only added for headlines.

No, this appears to be a hate crime which is a Federal offense. Hence why the FBI is involved.

Lt. Randazzo
06-18-2015, 09:39 AM
Except race was only added for headlines.

Yes, because it's a fact. A white man went into a church and stayed for an hour, then shot 6 black women and 3 black men. That's a fact. The white man has an arrest record and a hate crime investigation has been officially opened. Again, your edit is invalid.

orestes
06-18-2015, 09:47 AM
The suspect has a name: Dylan Roof.
https://twitter.com/zellieimani/status/611539932549640192

tony.parente
06-18-2015, 09:48 AM
Yes, because it's a fact. A white man went into a church and stayed for an hour, then shot 6 black women and 3 black men. That's a fact. The white man has an arrest record and a hate crime investigation has been officially opened. Again, your edit is invalid.
Well then, I expect you state the race of everyone involved in any news story you talk about now.

-Tony, white person

Maximilian
06-18-2015, 10:23 AM
Edit: drunken words with buried feelings....

Sarah K
06-18-2015, 10:28 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/18/us/charleston-south-carolina-shooting/?sr=fb061815charlestonshooting12pStoryGalLink

They got him(alive) already.

rampface
06-18-2015, 10:31 AM
(http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/members/2107-tony-parente)tony.parente: get your head checked. idiot...

Khrz
06-18-2015, 10:31 AM
Ever since the Trayvon Martin case, the media has made it a priority to point out which criminals, policemen, whoever does anything as white. You have to recognize it, just look at the articles. It does not impact my personal life, but I wonder what is the point they are making?

To balance the fact that previously, race and origins were only emphasized when the criminal wasn't white, quite simply. Every white guy was just a criminal, every black guy was an african-american one, for instance.
@tony.parente (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=2107) : Seriously, the media has been too happy for years to point out when criminals were P.O.C. You can't start to nitpick now that they're pointing out when a white guy does shit, they've been doing it for every other race all this time...

telee.kom
06-18-2015, 10:33 AM
Media does this all the time whether person is white, black or muslim; although I gotta say "white man" is new to me. They should either drop this labeling altogether, or use it in every case. Everything in between is hypocrisy.


Also yeah, this guy doesn't look creepy at all

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHyu2F0UwAACEDz.jpg

allegro
06-18-2015, 10:39 AM
Media does this all the time whether person is white, black or muslim; although I gotta say "white man" is new to me. They should either drop this labeling altogether, or use it in every case. Everything in between is hypocrisy.
I said it on the other page and maybe your part of the world is getting late news reports but the FBI is saying this is a "hate crime (Police said the victims were gathered in the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, also known as “Mother Emanuel,” for a prayer meeting Wednesday when the shooting occurred. The congregation, established in 1816, is one of the oldest African American churches in the United States.)" which is a Federal offense (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes).


Police said the victims were gathered in the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, also known as “Mother Emanuel,” for a prayer meeting Wednesday when the shooting occurred. The congregation, established in 1816, is one of the oldest African American churches in the United States.

From the link that Sarah K posted:


Witnesses say the suspect stood up and said he was there "to shoot black people," a law enforcement official said.


Police were searching for information about Roof. A picture of him on social media showed him wearing a jacket with what appear to be the flags of apartheid-era South Africa and nearby Rhodesia, a former British colony that was ruled by a white minority until it became independent in 1980 and changed its name to Zimbabwe.

Sallos
06-18-2015, 10:47 AM
Hate crime? Isn't shooting unarmed innocent people a hate crime no matter what race/sex/creed they are? What's the basis of this hate crime law?

Khrz
06-18-2015, 10:50 AM
Hate crime? Isn't shooting unarmed innocent people a hate crime no matter what race/sex/creed they are? What's the basis of this hate crime law?

The definition is one click away :


In both crime and law, hate crime (also known as bias-motivated crime) is a usually violent, prejudice motivated crime that occurs when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group. Examples of such groups include but are not limited to: ethnicity, gender identity, disability, language, nationality, physical appearance, religion, or sexual orientation.

allegro
06-18-2015, 10:56 AM
The definition is one click away :

I linked a whole page from the FBI in my prior post (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes), too.

Sallos
06-18-2015, 10:58 AM
The definition is one click away :

Yes i know that, my question is why? Let's suposed the motivation was not racial or any of the above mentioned, then what? Instead of getting death penalty he'd get life in prison? What exactly is the need for a hate crime law?

Khrz
06-18-2015, 10:59 AM
I linked a whole page from the FBI in my prior post (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes), too.

That's right, my bad !


The definition is none click away :

telee.kom
06-18-2015, 11:00 AM
I said it on the other page and maybe your part of the world is getting late news reports but the FBI is saying this is a "hate crime (http://Police said the victims were gathered in the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, also known as “Mother Emanuel,” for a prayer meeting Wednesday when the shooting occurred. The congregation, established in 1816, is one of the oldest African American churches in the United States.)" which is a Federal offense (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/hate_crimes).

Putting aside that at this point it is just guessing, I'm not arguing that they shouldn't have told that the guy is white, but it reminded me all those news articles where race or religion were mentioned just so people could angrily share it with the "ah those damn blacks/gypsies/arabs/imigrants" notion with their peers. If news outlets will start using it also with whites and christians, I have no problem with it. I'm just arguing for the same terms for everyone, that's all. It's not really about this shooting in particular either.

allegro
06-18-2015, 11:01 AM
Yes i know that, my question is why? Let's suposed the motivation was not racial or any of the above mentioned, then what? Instead of getting death penalty he'd get life in prison? What exactly is the need for a hate crime law?
First of all, for the authorities to consider it a "hate crime," then they have already determined that the motivation was within the category listed under hate crime (which would be racial in this case and is obvious in the case since the guy said "I'M HERE TO SHOOT BLACK PEOPLE"). But, what is the need for ANY law? We have murder laws, robbery laws, larceny laws, assault laws, all kinds of laws, yet they all get broken and our prisons are full. But, we still need those laws, particularly civil rights laws. I just posted an in-depth FBI link about hate crimes ^^^ Up There ^^^ that you can read, so that we don't really drift this "General Headlines" thread with the finer nuances of the law and why we have so many of them. (there is a reason why it takes three years to get through law school, and we really don't have three years in here to discuss state law vs. US constitutional law)

Sarah K
06-18-2015, 11:50 AM
http://mic.com/articles/120917/twitter-reacts-to-south-carolina-church-shooting

orestes
06-18-2015, 12:19 PM
"She said that he had reloaded five different times… and he just said 'I have to do it. You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go.'"

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a35793/charleston-shooting-discussion/?src=spr_TWITTER&spr_id=1456_195657991

DigitalChaos
06-18-2015, 12:22 PM
Fucking... Kidding me?
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/18/6287760fcaa14afe42b7ddad40fcd106.jpg

telee.kom
06-18-2015, 12:26 PM
Lot of serial killers are described this way, what is wrong with that?

DigitalChaos
06-18-2015, 12:30 PM
Lot of serial killers are described this way, what is wrong with that?

Maybe it's just me, but I got a huge sense of "holy fucking white privilege" while reading that.

DigitalChaos
06-18-2015, 12:33 PM
Except that the suspect is white per the wanted sheets. Your edit is invalid. Your point is questionable.

I mean, maybe he is transracial?











I had to. Sorry.

elevenism
06-18-2015, 12:33 PM
in (much) more cheerful news, did you guys hear that we will be having a woman on the $10 bill in 2020?

I bet 10 to 1 it will be Susan B Anthony.

But yeah, i can't believe this terrible bastard shooting up a church, especially after sitting in fucking bible study at said church for an hour.

Is it just me, or have these straight up MASSACRE type crimes been steadily on the rise since 99/2000 or so?

Khrz
06-18-2015, 12:36 PM
That's the same ooooooooold statement every time... "He was a nice neighbor, we never heard anything from him, he was polite and smiling". As opposed to what, running naked with a chainsaw in hand while howling maniacally ? "We never would have thought", that's all these people are saying, and of course they wouldn't, psychopath/sociopath/potential maniac isn't usually the first impression you get when you see someone.
That's the bottom of the barrel when it comes to journalism... Fundamentally amounts to stating "When asked about the shooter, people who barely knew him went ¯\_(ツ)_/¯"

Presideo
06-18-2015, 12:45 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHyz_LyWwAETyvH.png

telee.kom
06-18-2015, 12:46 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I got a huge sense of "holy fucking white privilege" while reading that.

yeah, that's just you

also there is very little black mass murderers so in this sense it is "white privilege"

DigitalChaos
06-18-2015, 01:15 PM
....aaaand Obama with the calls for gun control on top of the undried blood of the victims. As usual, that means we will get a proposal that is completely unrelated to the crime at hand. We will probably also find out that the shooter was already legally barred from possessing his weapons.

The icing was the "this doesn't happen as much in other advanced countries" line... right.. terrorists kill people mostly in the USA, and it's all because of our gun laws!

marodi
06-18-2015, 01:18 PM
Also yeah, this guy doesn't look creepy at all

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHyu2F0UwAACEDz.jpg

Yeah, he does look creepy. If he wasn't a mass murderer (alleged) he would be the perfect candidate for the "I had fun once; it was awful" meme.

But my reason for quoting the picture: I heard on the news that the flags on his vest were a clue to him supporting racist ideas? Isn't one of them the Apartheid flag?

Lovely bloke for sure.

telee.kom
06-18-2015, 01:47 PM
As usual, that means we will get a proposal that is completely unrelated to the crime at hand.

I guess that the fact, that the only country with more deaths by firearm than USA, are countries like Mexico, Colombia, and Bangladesh, is also completely unrelated to how nuts you people are regarding guns.

Sarah K
06-18-2015, 02:02 PM
I wondered how long it would take for us to hear about Christians being under attack.

Seems as if Rick Santorum has taken care of that already.

Sarah K
06-18-2015, 02:35 PM
But my reason for quoting the picture: I heard on the news that the flags on his vest were a clue to him supporting racist ideas? Isn't one of them the Apartheid flag?

Lovely bloke for sure.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/18/dylann-roof-facebook-photo_n_7612708.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

DigitalChaos
06-18-2015, 02:54 PM
deaths by firearm
Yeah, cause death's by pressure cooker bomb aren't part of the terrorist problem... wait, is this guy a terrorist? Or does that hurt the anti-gun rhetoric too much? It's a lot harder to mix him in with the statistical deaths of police shootings and gang violence if he is a terrorist outlier... uh oh!

And your quote selection indicates a misunderstanding. Let me give you an example of "a proposal that is completely unrelated to the crime at hand" ... Someone shoots up a crowd with a handgun. Anti-gun crowd responds with legislation that limits magazine capacity on rifles. This kind of thing always happens and it's completely disrespectful to the dead bodies you stand on to elevate your message.

Sarah K
06-18-2015, 03:06 PM
You always use their deaths to push your pro-gun stuff too, though.

telee.kom
06-18-2015, 03:12 PM
And how many terrorist attacks per year is happening in USA with use of pressure cooker in comparison to killings with use of a gun? No offense here, but you have to be delusional not to see that the insanely high number of shootings is to some degree caused by insanely high number of people owning a gun and the fact, that buying a gun in USA is easier than buying a beer.

Just look at the same statistics in Great Britain or France or any other 1st world country. Why is USA so different if not because of their benevolent attitude towards guns?

DigitalChaos
06-18-2015, 03:29 PM
You always use their deaths to push your pro-gun stuff too, though.
Knocking self-promoting assholes off the bodies of victims is not a promotion of a view. It's the attack of someone's view.


And how many terrorist attacks per year is happening in USA with use of pressure cooker in comparison to killings with use of a gun? No offense here, but you have to be delusional not to see that the insanely high number of shootings is to some degree caused by insanely high number of people owning a gun and the fact, that buying a gun in USA is easier than buying a beer.

Just look at the same statistics in Great Britain or France or any other 1st world country. Why is USA so different if not because of their benevolent attitude towards guns?

Terrorist attacks, of all forms, are extremely fringe in the USA. But I see you've gone off the terrorism topic and back to the gun topic... thus standing on the bodies of the victims.


It's also looking like this guy had prior felony charges... sooo... he would have been banned from purchasing a gun... sooo.. i totally called it.

Sarah K
06-18-2015, 03:54 PM
Knocking self-promoting assholes off the bodies of victims is not a promotion of a view. It's the attack of someone's view.


It's also looking like this guy had prior felony charges... sooo... he would have been banned from purchasing a gun... sooo.. i totally called it.

Mmmhmmm...

DigitalChaos
06-18-2015, 03:59 PM
Mmmhmmm...
Yes, it's a reference back to the post I made about Obama pushing for unrelated gun control on top of this situation. Pointing out the ridiculous self-promoting unrelated stance is exactly what I am doing. He did the same shit after Sandy Hook.

DigitalChaos
06-18-2015, 04:25 PM
Sarah - If you are having trouble identifying what using this situation for pro-gun politics actually looks like, look up the idiots trying to point at gun-free zones, lack of carry rights, etc as the problem in this situation. THAT is another example of standing on dead bodies with irrelevant promotion, just like the anti-gun promotion. Knocking people's dumb ideas down is not the same thing as promoting an idea.

Lt. Randazzo
06-18-2015, 04:32 PM
Knocking self-promoting assholes off the bodies of victims is not a promotion of a view. It's the attack of someone's view.



Terrorist attacks, of all forms, are extremely fringe in the USA. But I see you've gone off the terrorism topic and back to the gun topic... thus standing on the bodies of the victims.


It's also looking like this guy had prior felony charges... sooo... he would have been banned from purchasing a gun... sooo.. i totally called it.

Well, the police conference had the tidbit that this kid's dad bought him a .45 caliber handgun for his 21st birthday. Solve that one, Dick Tracy.

Also, fuck guns. I'll own my anti-gun stance to the nth degree.

marodi
06-18-2015, 04:41 PM
This is what the President said about guns:


"We do know that once again, innocent people were killed in part because someone who wanted to inflict harm had no trouble getting their hands on a gun. At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this kind of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries. It doesn't happen in other places with this kind of frequency. It is in our power to do something about it. (...) I've had to make statements like this too many times (...)"

I fail to see where he's wrong.

DigitalChaos
06-18-2015, 04:42 PM
Well, the police conference had the tidbit that this kid's dad bought him a .45 caliber handgun for his 21st birthday. Solve that one, Dick Tracy.


That's the point! There is no gun control that would have prevented this situation. Every proposal that will follow this will have fuck-all to do with preventing this situation. It'll be more shit like assault weapon bans and other things COMPLETELY UNRELATED to this situation. It's not a lack of gun control that caused this situation.
It's just like the Santa Monica shooter. That shooter was also barred from having guns but completely circumvented those laws. He modified and built his guns. We had a bunch of stupid proposals from the CA politicians on the back of that.

Khrz
06-18-2015, 04:47 PM
That's the point! There is no gun control that would have prevented this situation.

Man does reading this sentence from a European perspective feels like I'm watching a surrealistic play.

I mean, I'm typing this from a country where having your dad buy you a gun is impossible. Period. Is that gun control ? Apparently not.

Lt. Randazzo
06-18-2015, 04:49 PM
That's the point! There is no gun control that would have prevented this situation. Every proposal that will follow this will have fuck-all to do with preventing this situation. It'll be more shit like assault weapon bans and other things COMPLETELY UNRELATED to this situation. It's not a lack of gun control that cause this situation.
It's just like the Santa Monica shooter. That shooter was also barred from having guns but completely circumvented those laws. He modified and built his guns. We had a bunch of stupid proposals from the CA politicians on the back of that.

Read this carefully and understand the point - THIS SHIT CAN NOT CONTINUE. Adam Lanza's mom bought him guns and he used those to shoot up his school. Now we have this kid whose dad may have bought the gun that he used to kill 9 people. Gun reform needs to happen and it needs to prevent stupid parents from buying guns for their kids. If this is true, the father is just as guilty as his son is for killing those 9 people and should be held accountable for what happened. This nation needs sweeping gun reform because it's just too damn easy for this to keep happening.

DigitalChaos
06-18-2015, 04:55 PM
Read this carefully and understand the point - THIS SHIT CAN NOT CONTINUE. Adam Lanza's mom bought him guns and he used those to shoot up his school. Now we have this kid whose dad may have bought the gun that he used to kill 9 people. Gun reform needs to happen and it needs to prevent stupid parents from buying guns for their kids. If this is true, the father is just as guilty as his son is for killing those 9 people and should be held accountable for what happened. This nation needs sweeping gun reform because it's just too damn easy for this to keep happening.

I agree that the farther is just as guilty. Shit, he broke the law in providing a felon a gun.

But again, there will be no proposed gun control that relates to this. Look at the shit that was proposed after Sandy Hook if you need evidence of this. Duuur WE MUST DO SOMETHING.... *proposes Assault Weapon Ban of 2013 that bans weapons with thumbhole stocks and bullet buttons, bans import of 30rd magazines* ... none of which were involved in Sandy Hook.

The shit that Obama (and others using the dead bodies for gun control) are doing is getting behind unrelated legislation... again.

telee.kom
06-18-2015, 05:13 PM
Well okay, I agree this won't do shit. Now what I think would help this situation is gun license needed for any kind gun purchase. And of course psychological tests would be part of the procedure that would lead to your eventual gun license. Testing every 5 or so years. Huge penalties and sentences for people who would own a gun without licence. I mean this shit is absolutely normal in every European country, how can you have states where you don't even need a license for buying a gun? That's just insane. You need driving licence for driving a car, how can you not need licence for shooting a gun?

Khrz
06-18-2015, 05:17 PM
Oh yeah, they tried proposing that, it was considered a dangerous power grab from the government and an intolerable attempt to stop citizens from freely shooting each other. So now all they're trying is to at least stop them from using artillery when they do it.
Of course, gun control advocates have to literally stand on the mangled corpses of the slaughtered victims to reiterate their point, otherwise it wouldn't be fun. Nice pro-gun defendants never ever do that, they tend to prefer their bodies cold.

DigitalChaos
06-18-2015, 05:34 PM
Now what I think would help this situation is gun license needed for any kind gun purchase.

How would this have stopped the Dad from buying a gun and giving it to his felon son?

orestes
06-18-2015, 06:23 PM
So Lindsey Graham continues to be a piece of shit. (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/06/18/3671525/wildly-different-ways-one-senator-responds-terrorism-boston-versus-charleston/)

DigitalChaos
06-18-2015, 11:17 PM
Just look at the same statistics in Great Britain or France or any other 1st world country. Why is USA so different if not because of their benevolent attitude towards guns?

Statistics for terrorist events are pointless because of how rare they are. Now... homicides on the other hand.... that's something you can look at.


http://i.imgur.com/HIG3BSp.png



But where the data becomes very clear, is when you start to be more specific with your scope.

http://i.imgur.com/11EUA4a.png




and THIS is an example of where your attention should be focused. source (http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/black-americans-are-killed-at-12-times-the-rate-of-people-in-other-developed-countries/)

telee.kom
06-19-2015, 02:55 AM
I'm not sure what exactly is your point with this statistic. That there are countries with worse homicide rate? Or that USA is average in this regard? Well yeah, but put it in the context of 1st world countries and you suddenly realize that USA have the worst homicide rate of them all. You really think that USA should compete with African and South American states where they have none of the infrastructure USA have?

And what do you think are the factors why black people have 9 times more homicide rate in comparison to white people? Black people also have 6 times more incarceration rate, this isn't simple issue and one graph really won't tell you the whole story.


How would this have stopped the Dad from buying a gun and giving it to his felon son?

It would make harder to obtain the gun in a first place and if penalties for illegally owning a gun would be harsh enough, maybe his father would think this through more. It's the combination of gun mentality that lot of Americans have and the ease of getting a gun that is the problem. Changing the mentality takes time, changing the law doesn't.

Sallos
06-19-2015, 03:57 AM
Unlike any other 1st world country, the USA has a tremendous gang problem, fueled mostly by the war on drugs. They're even exporting them, the Hell's Angels have chapters all over europe. So i wonder what the statistics would be if it wasn't for that problem, certainly a lot lot lower.

botley
06-19-2015, 10:59 AM
Enough. Enough. Enough. Enough. (http://www.vox.com/2015/6/19/8807851/mass-shootings-gun-control-charleston)

Khrz
06-19-2015, 11:13 AM
The very first sentence of that paragraph he quoted is one of the most chilling sentences I've read in a long time...

Deepvoid
06-19-2015, 11:20 AM
https://youtu.be/7be99BL2wuM

allegro
06-19-2015, 11:34 AM
https://youtu.be/7be99BL2wuM

Wow. There ya go. He speaks the truth.

I am not a gun apologist, I am not a huge gun advocate, but pointing at guns as a cause is side-stepping the real issue, here (he was using a normal and legal handgun, one that has been endorsed as legal and constitutional by the Supreme Court of the United States). That church has survived FIRES set by white supremacists; the real issue, here, is racism in this country; that guy went into that church intending to "start a race war."

edit: sorry, I didn't know he had a GLOCK, wtf.

Khrz
06-19-2015, 11:55 AM
I am not a gun apologist, I am not a huge gun advocate, but pointing at guns as a cause is side-stepping the real issue, here

As much as I can't even begin to comprehend the fact that guns can be so easily accessible to -mostly- anyone, I agree here. Focusing on gun laws only amounts to blaming TV, video games and rock music.
I'd argue, though, that this very accessibility and the refusal to question it is a societal problem in itself, but as I said, there is a cultural gap I can't bridge here, between North American culture and the European one.

DigitalChaos
06-19-2015, 12:34 PM
I'm not sure what exactly is your point with this statistic.

Read what allegro just posted. Then realize there is institutional racism reflected by the second chart. You have to dig much deeper to understand, but that's not about to happen if you are someone who looks at this situation and immediately blames it on guns.

aggroculture
06-19-2015, 01:04 PM
@allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) you ARE a gun apologist and a gun advocate. Your position is closer to DigitalChaos than you perhaps like to think, and every time you say "it's not about guns" (and you say this a lot) you distract from the fact that the US has more deaths-by-guns than anywhere else in the "developed world" because it has more guns than anywhere else.

Sometimes 2+2=4.

And yet Americans like you, who think they are on the side of reason and rationality and the law, are aiding and abetting this obscene situation where 30000 people are being killed for no reason every year.
And I'm addressing you in particular because you are on the whole a voice of reason. People like DigitalChaos uphold a dangerous, sociopathic position that ultimately causes people to die: it's the so-called Americans who think themselves "reasonable" about guns that are the real danger, because they allow this situation to continue.

The second amendment of the constitution can go rip itself to shreds.

And yes, of course it's about racism, and right wing racist white supremacy covertly endorsed by the state (take that fucking Confederate flag down South Carolina). But take those guns away and it's a lot harder to just walk into a church and kill nine people with no harm to yourself.

Deepvoid
06-19-2015, 01:37 PM
I'm looking at the different reactions from Conservatives and it's no wonder you can't find common ground on what to do next.

Fox News was spinning this as an attack on Christians and not against black people.
Rick Santorum called it an attack on religious liberty.
NRA board member blamed the pastor for the shooting. The pastor who's dead by the way. Why? Because he voted against concealed-carry in churches.
Lindsey Graham: "This guy's just whacked out," he said. "It's 2015—there are people who are looking for Christians to kill them." Graham also defended the Confederate Flag because "it's part of who we are".

Alex Jones didn't actually believe this was a false flag. That's got to be a first.

You got a long road ahead of you my friends. I mean, when giving a gun as a birthday present is considered normal...

howdidislipinto
06-19-2015, 01:38 PM
Lotta fucking idiots up in here.

New low btw, Tony.

DigitalChaos
06-19-2015, 01:54 PM
deaths-by-guns

voice of reason

Death by anything else is a nonissue in aggroculture's imaginary voice of reason.

allegro
06-19-2015, 02:28 PM
@allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) you ARE a gun apologist and a gun advocate. Your position is closer to DigitalChaos than you perhaps like to think, and every time you say "it's not about guns" (and you say this a lot) .
you forgot about all the times I have said that the SCOTUS refuses to hear cases about assault weapons and I agree with them. I don't care if this country passes a ban on assault weapons; there is no need for them, and the 2nd Amendment includes "well regulated." I am a constitutionalist. HOWEVER, blacks in this country have been lynched, beaten, sunk to the bottom of lakes with cement, unfairly incarcerated, held in jails for years without trial, tortured, etc. You are focusing on guns and this attack is about racism. South Carolina still flies the fucking CONFEDERATE FLAG, which is nothing more than a SYMBOL OF SLAVERY. Before handguns, blacks were killed every fucking day. Hung, beaten, shot with shotguns, set on fire .. you are ignoring the problem. And we are NEVER going to ban guns in this country, end of story. IT WILL NEVER FUCKING HAPPEN. The US Constitution has made sure of it, so focusing your argument on getting rid of guns (or the 2nd Amendment) is just showing your ignorance of our legal system. We might as well discuss unicorns.

Let me remind you that black people weren't granted the Constitutional ability to VOTE until fucking 1965.

Also, we recently marked the anniversary of this terrible event (http://www.history.com/topics/oklahoma-city-bombing).

DigitalChaos
06-19-2015, 02:40 PM
And how many terrorist attacks per year is happening in USA with use of pressure cooker in comparison to killings with use of a gun? No offense here, but you have to be delusional not to see that the insanely high number of shootings is to some degree caused by insanely high number of people owning a gun and the fact, that buying a gun in USA is easier than buying a beer.

Just look at the same statistics in Great Britain or France or any other 1st world country. Why is USA so different if not because of their benevolent attitude towards guns?

Actually, when you control for the fact that the USA is much bigger and has a shitload more people, it's not as clear as you claim it to be. It's completely dishonest NOT to account for this major difference when trying to compare rates. Things like terrorist attacks and rampage shootings get everyone all excited, but they are statistically small things. Still.... per capita, the USA is far from the top "first world country" when it comes to shooting rampage fatalities or shooting rampage incidents.


http://i.imgur.com/llnQJx6.jpg

DigitalChaos
06-19-2015, 02:53 PM
...
You are focusing on guns and this attack is about racism.
...
so focusing on your argument is just showing your ignorance of our legal system.

You are kinder than I.
People like @aggroculture (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=318) that continue to focus on guns even after being shown how blatantly race-oriented this is are demonstrating something pretty disgusting. When forced to choose between focusing on "guns are bad" and "racism is bad" they decided that first takes priority. They would rather ignore racism if it means they can push a false narrative that satisfies their hate of guns. It makes you wonder how masturbatory it is for them when they do decide to actually talk about racism (once someone takes all the guns out of the topic). FuckYeaDemocracy!

aggroculture
06-19-2015, 03:56 PM
Yeah both of you read my post again. Clearly this crime is motivated by racism and white supremacy and the legacy of slavery, which I said. So I'm not choosing or forced to choose between or ignoring anything. I'm responding to points being made about guns, by gun nuts (I know, I must be stupid).

But you know, they have racism and race riots and a colonial legacy in Britain and France too. But without the 30000 pointless gun deaths a year.

@allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) people said they would never abolish slavery either. And then it happened. So this idea that they will never abolish guns is a self-fulfilling prophecy, that's why I maintain that you are a gun advocate. "It will never happen." Instead of repeating this pointless mantra, let's try to make it happen.

@DigitalChaos (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=598) you on the other hand are not at all disgusting for making every fucking gun tragedy an opportunity to say that guns do not cause people to be killed so easily and in such massive numbers: "it's not guns, it's something else (racism, poverty, whatever)." You can have all of those things and without guns you cut out the 30000 dead people from guns every year. People are going to kill each other, because humans are shitty: why make it so easy for them? Why? Because of a sentence in a 200-year old document? Please.

DigitalChaos
06-19-2015, 04:00 PM
I didn't make this about guns. I made this NOT about guns after people like Obama decided to try and turn it into a gun topic (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/255-Random-General-Headlines?p=257471#post257471). But whatever makes you feel better about defending them.

edit: lol, you edited your post. I'm leaving this here though. It still stands that you are siding with the people who want to make this topic about guns. If you want to get angry about people talking about a statement from THE PRESIDENT, then you are ridiculous. You should be bitching about people like Obama making every incident a platform to cry about guns.

aggroculture
06-19-2015, 04:07 PM
Exactly. You tried to make it "not about guns."
But it IS about guns because the guy took a gun to a church and killed nine people.

Stop trying to say that I'm saying that the only reason this happened is because the guy had a gun. You know I'm not.

DigitalChaos
06-19-2015, 04:15 PM
Exactly. You tried to make it "not about guns."
But it IS about guns because the guy took a gun to a church and killed nine people.

Stop trying to say that I'm saying that the only reason this happened is because the guy had a gun. You know I'm not.
You came in here ranting about how guns are totally part of this (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/255-Random-General-Headlines?p=257648#post257648), like most of your additions to these threads are. Race was an afterthought thrown on to the ends of your thought... literally. And then you further capped it off with a "but still, GUNS!" before hitting submit.


Under your logic, this must be about churches too. Cause it totally happened in a church. Oh hey, that's a Fox News angle actually...

allegro
06-19-2015, 04:21 PM
aggroculture, there are currently over 30 million guns in this country. Unless we go all Gestapo and go door-to-door and bust down doors to confiscate guns, we can't undo something that has been legal for over 250 years. Not unless somebody akin to Joseph Stalin takes over power. We give up too many rights (search and seizure, right to privacy, etc.) to undo what our founding fathers deliberately wrote into the Constitution for a reason. This isn't pro-gun so much as logic; we don't have the manpower, we don't have the physical ability.

And please don't group me in with these Charleton Heston pro-gun morons who want all guns and zero regulations. I hate them all, the Constitution clearly says "well regulated." But people without guns (like Tim McVeigh) use bombs. The Internet teaches you how to build a bomb, cheaply and easily and efficiently.

Meanwhile, bail was just set for this guy at a million, which means for $100,000 he can get bonded out after killing 9 people.

aggroculture
06-19-2015, 04:44 PM
@DigitalChaos (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=598) stop putting words in my mouth or assigning ideas to me that I did not express. You suck at debating.
I came in here responding to your grand graphics, which irritated me because you're trying to pretend that having a gun did not help this man commit this murder. Which is bullshit, utter bullshit. You are in this thread, spreading malicious propaganda that ultimately contributes to facilitating the death of innocent people, and sorry I cannot keep silent (although clearly I should).

@allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) is doing more or less the same, in a more highbrow way. It's all good and legal, and only the Nazis or Stalin could take away our guns. Again, slavery also existed for 100s of years and it took a civil war to get rid of it. But I think we can all agree it was worth it. What I am trying to say is that your "we can't change this, it's all legal and in the constitution" position is the respectable face that allows the Charlton Hestonites to keep letting Americans kill each other in absurdly high numbers.

aggroculture
06-19-2015, 05:00 PM
edit: lol, you edited your post. I'm leaving this here though. It still stands that you are siding with the people who want to make this topic about guns. If you want to get angry about people talking about a statement from THE PRESIDENT, then you are ridiculous. You should be bitching about people like Obama making every incident a platform to cry about guns.

I edited for grammar, nothing more. What can I say, I am a grammarian.
There are no "people who want to make this topic about guns": it is already about guns, because a freely available gun was used in the massacre.
It is about racism, whiteness, supremacy, violence, masculinity, power...and many other things, including guns.
You can't pretend that aspect of the crime doesn't matter or is irrelevant (he could have done it with it a knife! a bomb! Yes, but he DIDN'T.)

aggroculture
06-19-2015, 05:07 PM
Under your logic, this must be about churches too. Cause it totally happened in a church. Oh hey, that's a Fox News angle actually...

Also, this is about churches: black churches: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/thugs-and-terrorists-have-plagued-black-churches-for-generations/396212/

DigitalChaos
06-19-2015, 05:10 PM
It's a good thing we are still talking about guns instead of focusing on race. Thanks aggroculture.

allegro
06-19-2015, 05:25 PM
@DigitalChaos (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=598) stop putting words in my mouth or assigning ideas to me that I did not express. You suck at debating.
I came in here responding to your grand graphics, which irritated me because you're trying to pretend that having a gun did not help this man commit this murder. Which is bullshit, utter bullshit. You are in this thread, spreading malicious propaganda that ultimately contributes to facilitating the death of innocent people, and sorry I cannot keep silent (although clearly I should).

@allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) is doing more or less the same, in a more highbrow way. It's all good and legal, and only the Nazis or Stalin could take away our guns. Again, slavery also existed for 100s of years and it took a civil war to get rid of it. But I think we can all agree it was worth it. What I am trying to say is that your "we can't change this, it's all legal and in the constitution" position is the respectable face that allows the Charlton Hestonites to keep letting Americans kill each other in absurdly high numbers.
Jesus fucking Christ, now I see why you're an English teacher. Freeing the slaves was LOGISTICALLY EASIER. "YOU ARE FREE." And they are free and they get up and leave.

Guns don't fucking get up and leave. 70,000 gang members who get their guns from drug cartels and use them to protect their drug business aren't going to have a gun emancipation parade. 30 million gun owners in this country are not going to voluntarily turn in their guns.

Do you know how much an average gun COSTS? At least $700. Nobody is gonna part with something that expensive very easily.

Handguns were illegal in the City of Chicago for over 40 years, yet gun deaths in Chicago were higher than in any other city during that time for decades.

Just like before Roe v Wade, when abortion was illegal in this country yet there were still millions of abortions.

Overturning slavery is a faulty comparison; a better comparison would be prohibition, a Constitutional amendment that was a total disaster that led to mob crime and Al Capone, and was eventually reversed.

Meanwhile, we better pray these racists don"t learn anything from those Boston Marathon dudes; pressure cooker bombs are really cheap and much more efficient, take out a LOT more people.

Speaking of which: when Tim McVeigh used homemade bombs to take out over 165 people (including children in a daycare center in the building), the focus back then was "HOW DID THIS GUY LEARN HOW TO BUILD A BOMB ON THE INTERNET? FUCK THE INTERNET! WE HAVE TO REGULATE THE INTERNET!!!!"

elevenism
06-19-2015, 05:46 PM
JESUS i knew you fuckers were gonna do this, but i didn't know it was gonna be THIS bad.

i'm leaving :)

telee.kom
06-19-2015, 07:50 PM
DigitalChaos look. I'm not anti-gun shill or whatever. I'm from different country and I'm telling you my "outside" opinion. I really don't give a shit if your laws regarding guns will be this or that. But they are fucking stupid in my opinion. And whenever I hear about another shooting in USA, first thing that comes to my mind is "oh, another shooting, I would never see that one coming". And if you want to pretend that your gun policy have nothing to do with it? Okay. Go on. Make up whatever excuses you need. But I'm telling that from the outside world this gun policy of yours just looks stupid. You are trying to find problems everywhere else but the most obvious place.

DigitalChaos
06-19-2015, 09:17 PM
DigitalChaos look. I'm not anti-gun shill or whatever. I'm from different country and I'm telling you my "outside" opinion. I really don't give a shit if your laws regarding guns will be this or that. But they are fucking stupid in my opinion. And whenever I hear about another shooting in USA, first thing that comes to my mind is "oh, another shooting, I would never see that one coming". And if you want to pretend that your gun policy have nothing to do with it? Okay. Go on. Make up whatever excuses you need. But I'm telling that from the outside world this gun policy of yours just looks stupid. You are trying to find problems everywhere else but the most obvious place.

I'm going to split the pure gun discussion over to the gun thread, but replying here for now (so that you know).


Your stance is equal to saying "the USA consumes 500% more meals than France every day. This should clearly stand out as a cause of obesity in the USA."

I have no doubt that this is your perception. It's clear that your view is based on initial perspective and not any sort of analysis. If your claims don't hold up in a per capital analysis... and your answer is "well whatever, I'm still going to think this way" instead of a thought out response... that's fine! Most people approach topics this way. It's the reason many problems exist today and will take generations to slowly correct. Just like the racism problem in this country.

telee.kom
06-20-2015, 11:09 AM
But you said it yourself earlier that comparing nations based on terrorist attacks/killing sprees is basically useless because of how sparse they are. Just look at Norway on top, that alone should tell you that this statistic is just stupid. That's why I was talking about gun violence in general where USA is leading among 1st world countries (per capita of course). And if you look closely at the nature of these attacks there is one big difference. Take Breivik in Norway for example, he planed this massacre for years, he amassed immense amount of guns and ammunition on black market and even in different countries, it was calculated mass murder that took a lot of effort from his part. Now if you compare it to killing sprees in America, this is almost exclusively not the case. People who got on a killing spree in USA usually just take what they have laying around at home, kid who wants to go about shoot up his school saves the trouble of buying a gun from black market, he can legally buy it without any trouble or use whatever gun his parents have at home. And I'm arguing that it just shouldn't be that easy. I'm not saying that it would stop all killing sprees, there is nothing that would manage to do that. But at least you can make it harder for people like Adam Lanza, James Holmes or Dylann Roof to get the gun in the first place, because there just wouldn't be that much guns in American society.

orestes
06-20-2015, 11:47 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CH8vnuEUkAAC-lQ.jpg

Jinsai
06-20-2015, 01:20 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CH8vnuEUkAAC-lQ.jpg

Here's the problem... someone out there took this picture... and never thought that maybe something really sucked about this person. Maybe share this picture with the authorities, and tell them that he's a fucking lunatic?

His former roommate goes to tell the news that he was "really into segregation" and that he wanted to do something "big" that would incite a race war. And he waits until after he kills a bunch of people to mention that to others.

People knew this guy was fucked up, yet his family is buying him guns and then later saying "oops, sorry."

How much of a crazy shitbag violent racist do you have to be before people will notice that you suck and maybe legitimately worry? Do we need people to spell it out before we stop arming them with lethal weapons? Does he have to wear a t-shirt that says "I'm going to kill people" for people to get it?

I don't know... the last time mom was cutting his hair in the bowl and listening to him rant about how he wanted to go on a murder spree, maybe she shouldn't have just said "that's nice honey."

Presideo
06-20-2015, 01:35 PM
SC politicians will never get rid of it because they rely on bigots for votes, and bigots love that flag more than their cousins (and you know how much we love our cousins in the South.) I'm pretty sure SC also has an official license plate you can purchase with the Confederate flag on it; it's more than symbolism, our state government literally profits from it.

Having been born and raised in SC, I find the fact that many covet that flag to be sickening. However, I also don't think getting rid of it would solve anything. It'd be akin to putting a bandage over a gaping gunshot wound; you covered up the problem, but you did nothing to actually solve it.

allegro
06-20-2015, 01:45 PM
People knew this guy was fucked up, yet his family is buying him guns and then later saying "oops, sorry."
Ends up that his family gave him birthday money and he put the money together and bought a .45 caliber pistol, himself (it wasn't purchased for him by his family, as previously reported). Reportedly, his parents took the gun away from him at least once. Also, friends are saying this guy actually has black friends so they didn't take him seriously, they thought he was joking or just trying to get attention, he kept mentioning Trayvon Martin*. Also, reports are saying he told the cops that he felt kinda bad after it was all over because those people he shot were "really nice."

*From Roof's "manifesto" (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/21/us/dylann-storm-roof-photos-website-charleston-church-shooting.html?_r=0):

“The event that truly awakened me was the Trayvon Martin case,” the essay says. “I kept hearing and seeing his name, and eventually I decided to look him up. I read the Wikipedia article and right away I was unable to understand what the big deal was. It was obvious that Zimmerman was in the right. But more importantly this prompted me to type in the words ‘black on White crime’ into Google, and I have never been the same since that day.’’


SC politicians will never get rid of it because they rely on bigots for votes, and bigots love that flag more than their cousins (and you know how much we love our cousins in the South.) I'm pretty sure SC also has an official license plate you can purchase with the Confederate flag on it; it's more than symbolism, our state government literally profits from it.
I know some people from the south and they don't seem to acknowledge what the flag really MEANS, they just think it means "THE SOUTH" like "The South Will Rise Again" and when I say "Yeah, but the history of that means slavery," they say "aw, you Yankees are too fucking hung up on that slavery shit." Umm ...

50 Volt Phantom
06-20-2015, 03:15 PM
Drove by the church today, people of all kinds were there paying respects, peacefully, without incident. People can rag on the south or South Carolina, but between this and the quick, decisive handling of the police shooting several weeks ago I think South Carolina, specifically Charleston, is showing the country that these incidents don't have to result in communities burning everything down, rioting and violence, that they can be handled appropriately and can unite people rather than divide them.

RhettButler
06-20-2015, 03:42 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3132670/Dylann-Roof-manifesto-Killer-unveils-Charleston-target-church-massacre-calls-black-people-stupid-violent-complains-s-no-real-KKK-help-him.html

Very disturbing.

allegro
06-20-2015, 03:48 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3132670/Dylann-Roof-manifesto-Killer-unveils-Charleston-target-church-massacre-calls-black-people-stupid-violent-complains-s-no-real-KKK-help-him.html

Very disturbing.

Linked ^^ 2 posts up ^^^ (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/3810-Emanuel-AME-Church-Attack?p=257787#post257787)

Jinsai
06-20-2015, 04:25 PM
maybe another problem worth addressing is that young people are apparently unbelievably fucking stupid (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33209654?SThisFB&fb_ref=Default)

There's two kids here... both of them friends (or at least acquaintances) of Dylann Roof... and they both admit that Dylann flat out told them he was planning on shooting a bunch of people... that he said things like "these people have seven days to live."

And their excuse for not notifying the authorities? "How many people do you know who have actually gone out and killed a bunch of people? It's hard to take seriously."

FUCK YOU. Send these fucking morons to jail too.

RhettButler
06-20-2015, 04:44 PM
maybe another problem worth addressing is that young people are apparently unbelievably fucking stupid (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-33209654?SThisFB&fb_ref=Default)

There's two kids here... both of them friends (or at least acquaintances) of Dylann Roof... and they both admit that Dylann flat out told them he was planning on shooting a bunch of people... that he said things like "these people have seven days to live."

And their excuse for not notifying the authorities? "How many people do you know who have actually gone out and killed a bunch of people? It's hard to take seriously."

FUCK YOU. Send these fucking morons to jail too.
Yes, they should have gone to the police. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm not sure if they technically broke the law by not doing so, especially if they thought he was just posturing and wasn't actually going to hurt anyone.

Jinsai
06-20-2015, 04:51 PM
I'm sure there's no legal grounds to actually try them as accessories, I'm just stunned. I do not understand how multiple people can be this stupid. This is why I could never be a journalist. I would not have been able to restrain myself from slapping the living shit out of both of them.

RhettButler
06-20-2015, 04:55 PM
I'm sure there's no legal grounds to actually try them as accessories, I'm just stunned. I do not understand how multiple people can be this stupid. This is why I could never be a journalist. I would not have been able to restrain myself from slapping the living shit out of both of them.
Kind of reminds me of the Columbine shooters. How could their parents let them build up a collection of so many guns and not notice or care?

orestes
06-20-2015, 05:58 PM
SC Supreme Court orders new judge in case.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/charleston-church-shooting/state-supreme-court-orders-new-judge-charleston-shooter-case-n379066

RhettButler
06-20-2015, 06:08 PM
http://i.lvme.me/26sx0g1.jpg

Some good articles from today's NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/20/opinion/the-nation-needs-more-than-mourning-after-charleston.html?_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/19/opinion/an-apology-for-slavery.html

You can sign a card of condolence, to be sent to the victim's families, here:
https://act.everytown.org/act/Charleston-Condolences?source=fbns_share&utm_source=fb_n_&utm_medium=_s&utm_campaign=share

DigitalChaos
06-20-2015, 06:31 PM
But you said it yourself earlier that comparing nations based on terrorist attacks/killing sprees is basically useless because of how sparse they are.

Then stop using that angle :P


And if you look closely at the nature of these attacks there is one big difference. Take Breivik in Norway for example, he planed this massacre for years, he amassed immense amount of guns and ammunition on black market and even in different countries, it was calculated mass murder that took a lot of effort from his part. Now if you compare it to killing sprees in America, this is almost exclusively not the case. People who got on a killing spree in USA usually just take what they have laying around at home, kid who wants to go about shoot up his school saves the trouble of buying a gun from black market, he can legally buy it without any trouble or use whatever gun his parents have at home.
ummm
I really don't think that's the case but would have to verify. This church attack was clearly planned for a while. The UCSB shooter had to actually **make** his guns. I mean, even the Boston Bombers spent a shitload of time planning and their resources were incredibly easy to come by.

DigitalChaos
06-20-2015, 06:34 PM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CH8vnuEUkAAC-lQ.jpg

Here's the problem... someone out there took this picture... and never thought that maybe something really sucked about this person. Maybe share this picture with the authorities, and tell them that he's a fucking lunatic?




cause it looks like a fucking parody picture. this kid is a clown along the lines of: (edit: not kid, but fuck does that ridiculous haircut make him look like a child)

http://i.imgur.com/8k5iwil.jpg

allegro
06-20-2015, 10:14 PM
Some good articles from today's NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/19/opinion/an-apology-for-slavery.html

He's totally right, here.

DigitalChaos
06-21-2015, 12:02 AM
I always look forward to Killer Mike's commentary on race related topics.

http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/the-juice/6605105/killer-mike-charleston-shooting-gun-control



What happened in Charleston is an act of terror committed by a terrorist. Simple & plain. I wish those folks in that church had been armed
-- Killer Mike (@KillerMikeGTO) June 18, 2015


@tranqy yet it Wud have lessened that body count. For that reason I strongly disagree with you.
-- Killer Mike (@KillerMikeGTO) June 18, 2015


@tranqy I know no one attacks NRA meetings. Wonder why?
-- Killer Mike (@KillerMikeGTO) June 18, 2015


@voiceofrazin not Now. We too far into the race now
-- Killer Mike (@KillerMikeGTO) June 18, 2015


@liam96murphy I will NEVER be pro gun control. long as blacks can be killed by the state and terrorist. Nah umma be pro save yo own life
-- Killer Mike (@KillerMikeGTO) June 18, 2015

Deepvoid
06-21-2015, 10:55 AM
NRA pundits have been saying that people in that church should have been armed. How fucking unsafe is your country when the solution you're advocating is that every citizen should be armed... just in case.

Is this Iraq or the United States of America?

allegro
06-21-2015, 12:04 PM
NRA pundits have been saying that people in that church should have been armed. How fucking unsafe is your country when the solution you're advocating is that every citizen should be armed... just in case.

Is this Iraq or the United States of America?

I agree, that's just stupid. They were in a prayer meeting in CHURCH, that's no place for that behavior. Their religious beliefs probably wouldn't allow it, anyway.

Here is a NY Times photo essay about attacks on African American churches (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/06/17/us/100000003749568.mobile.html)

List of burned African American churches in 1996, alone (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/churches/list.htm)

telee.kom
06-22-2015, 01:58 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/south-carolina-confederate-flag-debate-state-rep-doug-brannon-bill-to-remove-flag/

Hmm this is very interesting to me and I would almost say groundbreaking, since so many Americans I talked to take freedom of speech as this absolute concept gliding above everything and take it almost personally, when I say that I'm okay with my country having a ban on Nazi symbolism. I doubt this bill will pass though. Still interesting that something like this is even being discussed in USA.

allegro
06-22-2015, 02:21 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/south-carolina-confederate-flag-debate-state-rep-doug-brannon-bill-to-remove-flag/

Hmm this is very interesting to me and I would almost say groundbreaking, since so many Americans I talked to take freedom of speech as this absolute concept gliding above everything and take it almost personally, when I say that I'm okay with my country having a ban on Nazi symbolism. I doubt this bill will pass though. Still interesting that something like this is even being discussed in USA.

I'm pretty sure that is that only state that still flies the Confederate flag, which many Americans consider treason since that was a symbol of secession of the South during the Civil War. It's not considered free speech, it's considered inflammatory. We do have limits on free speech (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions).

See this (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/19/us/supreme-court-says-texas-can-reject-confederate-flag-license-plates.html?_r=0).

Dra508
06-22-2015, 05:31 PM
^^^^ it all depends on where in the US you are from, how you view the confederate flag. My BF has been in Texas so long, he doesn't have an opinion on that flag, but he doesn't think it represents racism. I hate arguing with him about it. :(

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/8-things-didnt-know-confederate-flag/

DigitalChaos
06-22-2015, 05:40 PM
I'm pretty sure that is that only state that still flies the Confederate flag, which many Americans consider treason since that was a symbol of secession of the South during the Civil War. It's not considered free speech, it's considered inflammatory. We do have limits on free speech (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions).

See this (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/19/us/supreme-court-says-texas-can-reject-confederate-flag-license-plates.html?_r=0).


Further... This is for taking it down from a public resource. Nobody is saying that people are unable to display this flag on their own property. They just don't want it to be state operated.

We have seen similar things like this pertaining to displays of religious views within govt property too.

allegro
06-22-2015, 06:00 PM
^^^^ it all depends on where in the US you are from, how you view the confederate flag. My BF has been in Texas so long, he doesn't have an opinion on that flag, but he doesn't think it represents racism.
Yeah, that's the excuse all white Southerners who want to brush it all under the rug give. Like "that Nazi flag was just a symbol of Germany." Tell the nearest black dude that the Confederate flag is just a "symbol of freedom." Uh-huh. I'm sure they love that as much as hearing a bunch of white dudes yell "YEEEEEEE-HAWWWWWWWWWWWW."

Meanwhile, all of my relatives came here from somewhere else well after slavery was abolished so I got nothing except ... that's a stupid flag. And I don't GET this "north vs. south" CRAP 200+ years later, from either side. Move on.

Hey, speaking of Nazis ... last night, I was watching a whole bunch of Nazi stuff on the NatGeo channel, including a thing about Anne Frank and how she and her sister, Margot, were transferred from Auschwitz to Bergen-Belsen which, unfortunately, was bad for them because it led to their demise and they may have survived Auschwitz; anyway, once Bergen-Belsen was finally liberated by the British, a British photojournalist -- George Rodger (https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=George_Rodger) -- documented it all in graphic photographs that exposed the horrors to the world.

The show indicated that George's GRANDSON was that weirdo guy who killed all those people at Isla Vista CA in 2014 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Isla_Vista_killings) because chicks wouldn't date him.

Wtf.

DigitalChaos
06-22-2015, 06:09 PM
the "Southern Avenger" defended the shit out of that flag, but read what he has to say now: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/22/the-southern-avenger-repents-i-was-wrong-about-the-confederate-flag.html

allegro
06-22-2015, 06:19 PM
the "Southern Avenger" defended the shit out of that flag, but read what he has to say now: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/22/the-southern-avenger-repents-i-was-wrong-about-the-confederate-flag.html

Wow, that is a GREAT essay.

DigitalChaos
06-22-2015, 08:37 PM
Wow, that is a GREAT essay.
It's the best I've seen, even if you factor out his history. His history adds a pretty heavy impact though. It will certainly make many of the confederate flag fans much more likely to hear the message.

I actually feel bad for the guy getting kicked out of the Paul campaign a while back. I really thought he deserved it. But now I'm seeing that he was basically blocked from committing his efforts into the very movement that changed his line of thinking here. Yet... maybe it was being kicked out that further lead him to being so public about his new views?

I don't care what your politics are or what causes you to think this way, but it would be incredible if the country had a "mass enlightenment" that caused everyone to shift how they see others in a similar way as this:

"My attraction to libertarianism a number of years ago began a journey of rejecting groupthink and placing primacy on the individual. Once you start down the path of putting individual human beings above whatever group they belong to, it puts politics—and everything else—in a new light."

"Ideologues ridicule and dehumanize people at the expense of their personhood. ... It’s crude collectivist thinking. It’s an intentional lack of sympathy. It’s dehumanization. It’s at the heart of everything that’s wrong with our politics and culture."

DigitalChaos
06-23-2015, 02:41 PM
the "Southern Avenger" defended the shit out of that flag, but read what he has to say now: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/22/the-southern-avenger-repents-i-was-wrong-about-the-confederate-flag.html

In short video form for sharing with your less literate friends and family:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_uwjSiNJlU

allegro
06-23-2015, 07:31 PM
It's the best I've seen, even if you factor out his history.
You went off on too much of a libertarian crap deep end for me, wherein HE didn't.

RhettButler
06-23-2015, 09:27 PM
Paul Thurmond calls for Confederate flag to come down:
http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150623/PC16/150629748/1177/paul-thurmond-calls-for-flag-to-come-down

DigitalChaos
06-23-2015, 09:31 PM
You went off on too much of a libertarian crap deep end for me, wherein HE didn't.

It's what I'm good for! :D

allegro
06-23-2015, 09:55 PM
Paul Thurmond calls for Confederate flag to come down:
http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150623/PC16/150629748/1177/paul-thurmond-calls-for-flag-to-come-down

“For the life of me, I will never understand how anyone could fight a civil war based in part on the desire to continue the practice of slavery,” Thurmond said.

Amen to that.

Signed,
a Dutch-American girl.



The thing that I don't get is that it's Federally illegal for any flag to fly higher than the American flag in this country, so when the American flag was at half-mast in South Carolina but the Confederate flag was permanently at full mast, that seems to be against Federal law.

orestes
06-24-2015, 07:12 PM
Fucking hell.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQedcxi2u7A