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Jinsai
10-14-2014, 10:40 PM
It's something I've thought a lot about... and in various ways it's obviously prevalent, and not just because a lot of the people contributing to the discussion are young men.

But this news story, where an outspoken feminist has had to cancel her speech after an online threat (http://kotaku.com/terror-threat-targets-anita-sarkeesian-for-speaking-at-1646371245?utm_campaign=Socialflow_Kotaku_Facebook&utm_source=Kotaku_Facebook&utm_medium=Socialflow) makes me realize it's a much more volatile issue than I understood it to be.

I don't agree with Anita Sarkeesian. I think Bayonetta is innocent jokey mockery of sexual objectification. I think she's too quick to freak out about things that are a non-issue. But now I wonder if maybe she's right, because the response to her opinion seems to entirely validate everything she says. It's horrifying.

liquidcalm
10-15-2014, 02:32 AM
The whole GamerGate saga just disgusts me, while many people claim that it is for 'ethics' in game journalism, the fact that it supports such actions against people making valid criticism means that it is entirely undermined.
I quite like the Anita videos, and do disagree with her on several things, often per video. It does sometimes come off as nit picky, however the claims she makes are not undermined, you can see the angle and at the very least accept that if you take a feminist viewpoint, then yes you can see an issue.

The main problem I have is the entitlement for being able to see and abuse women, the whole mens rights thing is just awful and you can see it in many many forms of media. For example the other day when it was announced that the new Ghostbusters film would feature a cast of women rather than men, the BBC allowed comments such as "Why? Women aren't funny!" and "Ghostbusters has always been about men bonding, not women trying to be funny" on their Facebook group to go unchecked and un-countered. Thats the wider issue. The celebrity 'nude pictures' is abuse of women and privacy. Sending death threats to someone because they are making a game with a female lead is abuse and a crime.

The thing is, even in Anita's videos the claim that a game, ie the gameplay, is bad is never made, it is most often the content of the stories or the way the game has been sold. While I hate the word 'trope', its an easy idea to explore that more often than not women are used as bait or goals for the purpose of the game, and while you can make exceptions, they are few and far between, and not the norm. The important thing to really bare in mind is the exploration of sexism in games is not going to take away Call of Duty, Assassins Creed, or Mario games, its there to make sure writers try harder to make characters relatable, to make them think about what stereotypes they are perpetuating and out of this, make better games. I see games like Uncharted, Last of Us, Bioshock Infinite (some arguments there, I'm sure), many Final Fantasy games, even Destiny (ie you can choose, and it doesn't matter to the story) as great examples of how to deal with gender in games. I too think Bayonetta is an innocent mockery, as well as when you play something like Outrun 2... Ehh anyway.. I could prattle on for ages... these arguments are not going to wind up pretty the majority of the time.

Khrz
10-15-2014, 03:32 AM
I find the Bayonetta example interesting, on that regard. Trying to encompass the whole world on that issue is sooo tricky. Although we are approaching an age of World Wide Culture, feminism has a very different history from one nation to an other. Some countries have made it a non-issue centuries ago, some are still awful when it comes to equality... Japan has such a weird place when it comes to this, and comparing this culture's products to the American ones, treating them like they're one and the same, is a huge mistake. When it comes to female characters, Japan has shown it's capable of the very worst and the very best, it's all over the map. The anime I watched as a kid had systematically strong female characters, or even female leads. On the other hand, I don't remember many cartoons where it was the case.
Trying to judge a product like Bayonetta from a western perspective / cultural history seems like an exercise in futility. It may seem relevant to the debate, but it's not. We're trying to drag them in a conversation that is ours, linked to our issues and history.

xmd 5a
10-15-2014, 07:59 AM
I stopped self-identifying as a "gamer" out of embarrassment during the initial misogynist backlash against Sarkeesian in 2012. The past two months have further solidified my distaste for the "culture". Music, film, literature and art have been subject to critical analysis, even feminist critical analysis, for decades (if not centuries). "Gamers" should be embracing this analysis as validation of the medium as an artform. But no, gotta preserve the gross 'boy's club' mentality and confirm literally every negative stereotype about people who play video games in the process. Jesus fuck I couldn't have less respect for these fuckers if I tried.

If it wasn't for the fact I spent hundreds of bucks on an XBONE and a bunch of games just before this GamerGate bullshit started I would have sworn off gaming for good. 20 solid years of playing games and misogynist pricks ruin my enjoyment and pride in the hobby in 2. And I'm male. I can only imagine how women in the culture and industry feel. Especially those unfortunate enough to be at the centre of the shitstorm. Anita Sarkeesian, Zoe Quinn and Brianna Wu (among so many others) must have nerves of adamantium to keep the resolve to push forward through this crap. I couldn't do it.

Khrz
10-15-2014, 08:31 AM
Music, film, literature and art have been subject to critical analysis, even feminist critical analysis, for decades (if not centuries). "Gamers" should be embracing this analysis as validation of the medium as an artform. But no, gotta preserve the gross 'boy's club' mentality and confirm literally every negative stereotype about people who play video games in the process.

Well, all those medias and arts have seen the same kind of evolution and resistance. Women masquerading as men to get published, "supporting" (actually creating, inspiring and inventing) their husband's art while the man gets all the credit, women fighting for their right to express their art, their knowledge, their skills, fighting so that women aren't represented as mere symbols and allegories (mostly nude, because, well, something something archetype + butts ?)...
So, what's happening here is a logical evolution... Wait until the technology makes it ridiculously easy and cheap to create a game, and you'll get the cubist, surrealistic or self-referencing meta/pop art games (although, given that those currents are pre-existing, it may come sooner than I imagine it will)...
I'm optimistic. I can't imagine this evolution to stall. The discussion is happening, and the subject is overwhelmingly bigger than the realm of gaming... I'm not saying there will be any revolution, evolution is excruciatingly slow as a general rule, but things evolve nonetheless.
And as a sidenote : I've always thought that when dickheads are way too proud to wave your flag, that should be the best incentive to raise it higher and show everyone what are the real values behind it...

On the subject of women having nerves of adamantium : it's everywhere. Under particular circumstances I had a taste of what they're enduring, and I snap and rage instantly. The fact that women are capable of brushing off the brunt of what they have to suffer on a daily basis just floors me. I'd kill someone.

Jinsai
10-15-2014, 01:03 PM
Well, all those medias and arts have seen the same kind of evolution and resistance. Women masquerading as men to get published, "supporting" (actually creating, inspiring and inventing) their husband's art while the man gets all the credit, women fighting for their right to express their art, their knowledge, their skills, fighting so that women aren't represented as mere symbols and allegories (mostly nude, because, well, something something archetype + butts ?)...
So, what's happening here is a logical evolution...

Sure, we can view it as an evolutionary step (we're still at an infancy stage where the medium is not considered an art form at all by many people), but it's shameful that we have to even arrive at such a basic fundamental level in 2014 with regards to human decency. I was wading through the comments section of an article about the cancelled Anita Sarkeesian lecture, and it was flooded with either outright childish misogyny, or people trying to be subtle about their disdain with some kind of weak MRA whimpering. All in all, it was pathetic, and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. This wasn't just some outlier pricks, this was about half of the commentary... on an article about a death threat!

I think a large part of this issue is that the nature of it is steeped inseparably in internet culture. Anonymous, trolling behavior is leaking out into "the real world" here in an alarming way. I've wondered for a while if the nature of that sort of bullshit is actually breeding a new kind of vicious, disconnected sociopath. It's possible that a lot of the people weighing in on the issue in such a shitty way don't even realize what a serious issue this is.

I have to admit this is the first time I've actually heard of Sarkeesian... and I have to admit that I disagree with a great deal of what she says. In fact, some of her opinions are a little irritating... but that's where I would come into a discussion and actually engage it, not respond like a complete psycho. I'm worried that this issue isn't so much of an evolutionary step, but evidence of a real problem that might not be going away anytime soon.

It's sad, but apparently video game "culture" is dominated by immature brat trolling and an incredibly hostile form of misogyny... and to a certain degree, I think those things are related, and we're not going to get rid of one of them without the other.

Space Suicide
10-15-2014, 02:03 PM
Misogyny or not, I've come to seriously notice there are A LOT of rude people online playing games on both consoles and even PC. It makes me really wonder why on Earth so many things need to be said? The words don't offend me in messages or words I get but there's no need to read or put up with some of the stuff I've gotten in my inboxes.

Whenever I've been in games with girls, there's not so much hate and vile being spewed as there is endless fawning and people harassing her to play/talk to them. It's sad really. She just wants to blow your head off your neck with that .50 cal like you would and anybody else does, dude. She doesn't give a damn who you are or what you do. Leave 'em alone.

ambergris
10-15-2014, 05:30 PM
God, I really want to understand gamergate but everytime I start to read about it, I am repelled by its complexity and its banality.

Rabbit
10-15-2014, 06:58 PM
The gaming community is the worst group on the internet, period. They're just downright awful.

xmd 5a
10-15-2014, 09:47 PM
God, I really want to understand gamergate but everytime I start to read about it, I am repelled by its complexity and its banality.

A bunch of platitudes about "ethics in journalism" thinly veiling an abhorrent sea of misogyny, transphobia and highly unethical behaviour. The ethical problems are things like journalists having friends in the industry they cover, journalists talking to other journalists, women having sex, journalists reviewing things they bought with money, journalists having opinions anywhere to the left of the Tea Party, journalists saying maybe the stereotype of "basement-dwelling nerd" should be put out to pasture.

Nevermind the fact most of said "ethical issues" exist in music, film and sport journalism. Where's #ListenerGate? #ViewerGate? Where are all the people demanding Pitchfork writers shouldn't have friends in bands or review music they bought off Bandcamp? Where are all the people slamming Ebert for chumming it up with his favourite directors?
The "ethics in journalism" shield is transparently ridiculous to anyone who has any perspective.

GamerGate started as a harassment campaign against Zoe Quinn (literally the first thing Tweeted under the hashtag was a video attacking and defaming her) and has only succeeded in harassing tons of other prominent women in games since then.

Sorry for the rant. I've wasted far too much of my time over the past two months reading about this drama.


The gaming community is the worst group on the internet, period. They're just downright awful.

I dunno. The atheist community can give them a run for their money. Remember Elevatorgate? *shudder*

Rabbit
10-16-2014, 01:00 AM
I dunno. The atheist community can give them a run for their money. Remember Elevatorgate? *shudder*

Nah, that's not even close to this and that doesn't happen often within the atheist "community". The gaming community is nasty almost all the time. It can be something as silly as an analyst suggesting a change in sales... literally, an analyst by the name of Patcher speculated on something recently and is being pelted on twitter. They overreact to everything.

Plus, i think in the "elevatorgate" scenario the girl was being a bit ridiculous. She screwed up equating sexism with a guy simply asking her for coffee.

Jinsai
10-16-2014, 10:12 PM
I don't know, I'd say this surpasses the whole atheist debacle by a long shot. Still, and I'm a fan, but Richard Dawkins' letter in that case was insane.

Madmya
10-16-2014, 11:30 PM
Yeah, gamers are the worst. I've particularly noticed this in the last few years where they've become petulant little wankers. If one thing in a game is not how they expect it should be they'll bring it down, they won't even play the game but they'll bring it down anyway. It's not a friendly community where we're just happy to be able to play games anymore. The amount of hate for Destiny is a good example. Another thing that's particularly irked me is the shit Bioware copped for the original Mass Effect's elevator loading times. It was a loading scene for fucks sake. One that made the Citadel feel like one seamless big space. The criticism led to the sequel's citadels being chopped up into sections with loading scenes, for the worse imo.

I don't think sexism is rampant in the games industry, but gamers being a pack of shitcunts is. Also, I hate Polygon. I needed to say that.

Space Suicide
10-16-2014, 11:33 PM
Yeah, there's a real sense of entitlement and smug attitude when it comes to the gaming community. I dislike how DLC and multiplayer is given and handled sometimes but if there's pre-order DLC, an unnecessary multiplayer in a game (like Tomb Raider) they completely bash it immediately. I know people that actually cancelled their pre-orders and refused to buy Tomb Raider since it had multiplayer. I mean jesus christ, did it matter? You didn't have to play the shit.

I also don't consider or call myself a "gamer" as I find it silly. I might have my choice words when it comes to some practices, Sony/PS4 communities and policies but I honestly don't care that much like some of these fuckers.

Corvus T. Cosmonaut
10-17-2014, 01:23 AM
The atheist community can give them a run for their money.
The Venn diagram depicting #GamerGate and internet atheists would probably exhibit significant overlap.

xmd 5a
10-17-2014, 01:37 AM
The Venn diagram depicting #GamerGate and internet atheists would probably exhibit significant overlap.

Yep. That's kind of what I was getting at. Thunderf00t, Amazing Atheist and other similar smug obnoxious YouTube ranters have jumped on the GG bandwagon hard.

I totally agree about the toddlerlike sense of entitlement that pervades the gamer community. My 3 year old daughter takes not getting her own way better than many of these tantrum-throwers. Look at the user scores on Metacritic to see how over-the-top offended they get over the smallest perceived slights. I've lost count of the amount of games they've review-bombed with 0s over the smallest minutiae. Imagine if their despised "SJWs" kicked up as big a stink over representation as whiners do over DRM or DLC or Mass Effect 3's ending?

icecream
10-17-2014, 01:50 AM
The internet atheists/gamers/4chan people have got to be the most annoying bunch of people on the planet. The overlap in a Venn diagram of the three would somehow end up looking like a fedora. It's why I hardly game anymore, especially online. Every 12 year old past their bedtime calling me a fag got really old quickly.

As proven by the way the gaming community has reacted to the criticism, I think it's fair to say sexism and misogyny are prevalent in the gaming community. But, with most social issues, the longer it's being discussed will do a lot of good in changing people's opinions and the way they act to the criticism.

Entertainment isn't perfect. In movies and t.v there are plenty of sexist or racist things being portrayed. In regards to music, Jack White just gave an interview where he was asked why he uses so many female musicians. His answer was something along the lines as women have to work twice as hard as men to prove themselves and be taken seriously in the industry. But by far, the worst is gaming in terms of questionable content and fans.

Millionaire
10-17-2014, 02:38 AM
I'm not surprised by the gamer reaction. A lot of games, maybe most of them, are geared toward the angry young male and thats the audience they will usually attract. Games are at the stage where they are expanding on the definition of what a game can be, but the core of the industry is still the angry young male fantasy. I do like me the occasional explody shooter game, but I look forward to the day when there are a lot more different experiences to be had with games, and the audience reflects the diversity. I'm not an Anita Sarkeesian fan at all, but I think if it has gotten to the point where she has to cancel a speaking engagement due to a violence threat then it has gotten a bit out of hand.

sa_nick
10-17-2014, 04:07 AM
Wait wait wait, what's this atheist stuff got to do with anything? Aren't atheists generally pro-women?

IMO, the whole thing's stupid. The idiots sending threats were going to be sending them to SOMEONE, these chicks were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and their reaction just fed the nerds. It's a bunch of sad, angry dudes who attack people for fun. They're so desensitised to the words they use that to them they have no meaning. On the other end, the people reading these comments are idiots for over reacting about some shit a nerd twittered. These petty sentiments are jokes created to shock people and they're all falling for it. I wish everyone could just grow up.

Random internet douches shouldn't hold any power over these women.

littlemonkey613
10-17-2014, 04:23 AM
Wait wait wait, what's this atheist stuff got to do with anything? Aren't atheists generally pro-women?

IMO, the whole thing's stupid. The idiots sending threats were going to be sending them to SOMEONE, these chicks were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and their reaction just fed the nerds. It's a bunch of sad, angry dudes who attack people for fun. They're so desensitised to the words they use that to them they have no meaning. On the other end, the people reading these comments are idiots for over reacting about some shit a nerd twittered. These petty sentiments are jokes created to shock people and they're all falling for it. I wish everyone could just grow up.

Random internet douches shouldn't hold any power over these women.

I think you are just not admitting the fact that its so many people who think/feel that way and the fact that the industry is essentially catering to the exact demographic where most if not all of them exist. Shit isn't a joke. Every time a woman tries to engage intelligently and critically with the gaming community and analyze ways in which its sexist, racist or bullshit they get death threats and people organize to make them feel uncomfortable, harass and demean them. I don't think trying to change that aspect of culture is overreacting. I think society has a responsibility to try and correct it especially when the problems are so racist, transphobic and sexist. And honestly if you really look into whats going on with gamergate I don't think you'd come to the conclusion that they are all joking.. I think most of them seriously have these opinions.

We live in a world with MRA people and Elliot Rodgers are things and I would be scared to death if I were these women. Who knows how far these sociopathic "nerds" are willing to go with their oppressive bs.

tony.parente
10-17-2014, 04:37 AM
For every Bayonetta and GTA there are 1000 God of War, Metal Gear, NFL, WWE and Mortal Kombat games. Video games are meant to be an exaggerated version of self in both the positive and negative, and the vocal/terrible minority in no way represents the majority.

Khrz
10-17-2014, 04:49 AM
We live in a world with MRA people and Elliot Rodgers are things and I would be scared to death if I were these women. Who knows how far these sociopathic "nerds" are willing to go with their oppressive bs.

Out of all the asshats riling each other in an immense circlejerk of hate and rejection, there's bound to be a handful who are actually more sociopaths than trolls. I don't think the women being targeted are overreacting in any way. That shit is too big and aggressive to not be fucking dangerous.

And it definitely goes beyond 4chan, trolls and nerds. The subject is way bigger than a discussion about gaming, that's why it got picked up by the news outlets. There's no "growing up", no "take a joke". It went far beyond immature trolling at this point.
Also, the fact that rape and death threats are still brushed off as "trolling" is a problem in itself that speaks volume about the situation, to me.

Edit : There is no reason why atheists would be "pro-women" (whatever that means). That's like saying muslims are bound to be pro-salad, you can't make a blanket statement about such a disparate group of people when each part of the equation have no fundamental connection whatsoever. And it wasn't about atheists as a whole, it was about atheists on the internet, just like that whole discussion is about gamers on the internet. I believe the nuance is important here.

thelastdisciple
10-17-2014, 08:27 AM
There's no doubt that things need to change on either side of the games whether it's the diversity of developers or the attitudes of the gaming community in general but regarding games and how things are depicted in them with physical features vs. reality... I've always just approached it as fantasy/parody caricatures like those warped portraits people do of celebrities or whoever.

Take the image below for instance..

http://www.johnkascht.com/users/johnkascht/images/johnkascht1362924.jpg

Everyone with half a brain knows that's not what he really looks like, it's an exaggeration like the big heads mode in Goldeneye 64 and to know the difference is very much like knowing the morallity of right/wrong between what you can do in a game vs. what's acceptable in reality.

Bit of innocent fun to me i mean how can you be offended over that? Sure it can be a bit excessive sometimes and certainly feel overboard but at the end of the day you play what you choose to play nobody makes this decision for you and if there's something you don't like, get a refund and look for something else.

I would say what would need much more of an improvement is not necessarily the cartoon depictions of our reality but the writing, story and roles we've come to experience from within this form of media.

Dra508
10-17-2014, 08:40 AM
that's why it got picked up by the news outlets..


True. I'm not a gamer and the first two tidbits of this story I got was the Utah State talk getting cancelled and story above I heard whilst driving last night. (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/videos/#117791)

aggroculture
10-17-2014, 08:56 AM
This makes me feel old. When I was young, videogames meant staying at home with the Sega Megadrive (Genesis) or Super Famicom (SNES) and playing El Viento or F-Zero. Now I see it means threatening to rape and kill women in real life. Progress, how does that work?

These people are completely revealing their own stupidity: with their actions they've made Anita Sarkeesian and her message far more famous and high-profile than it would have been, and have revealed themselves to be lowlife scum: totally self-defeating behavior. As Jinsai said, they've proved she was right. If feminist analysis of videogames is something so unacceptable to them that someone who does it must be banned or even killed, then it must hit a nerve, it must contain some truths. And they have revealed this to be the case.

For me the cherry on the cake has to be that Anita asked the police for protection for her lecture, to put a metal detector in the lecture hall: they said no because that would interfere with Utah "open carry" laws.
So: the law is on the side of those threatening to kill. Just wow.

Rabbit
10-17-2014, 10:37 AM
The internet atheists/gamers/4chan people have got to be the most annoying bunch of people on the planet..
Uh, i've been part of all three at one time or another and bundling atheists in there is pretty unjustified. Besides that stupid "elevator gate" thing there hasn't been anything remotely close to that

Millionaire
10-17-2014, 10:55 AM
These people are completely revealing their own stupidity: with their actions they've made Anita Sarkeesian and her message far more famous and high-profile than it would have been....
Thats another thing about this, that it has probably given Sarkeesian more of a soapbox than she deserves(just my opinion). I don't think there is as much misogyny in the games as she may think(I mean, Bayonetta? Really?), but there is probably more coming from some of the gaming audience than the actual games. Most of the sexuality in games are no different than what you would see in movies or a Carl's Jr. ad, yet because of the death/rape threats and the comments sections of some popular game sites(where sprinkled among the petty talk of console favoritism and 'this game is better' complaints is some actual misogynistic dialogue) she has more ammo. Many people who play games aren't what she paints them to be, but some of the internet tough guys are doing their darnedest to earn the validation.

Dra508
10-17-2014, 11:03 AM
I dunno, again I'm not a gamer so I can't give examples, but just that one in the news hour report while maybe historically accurate (pick a whore or whatever the comment was) is offensive in the 21st century and certainly shouldn't be perpetuated amongst even a segment of the population. This isn't about being politically correct, this is about respecting humans.

liquidcalm
10-17-2014, 06:25 PM
Thats another thing about this, that it has probably given Sarkeesian more of a soapbox than she deserves(just my opinion). I don't think there is as much misogyny in the games as she may think(I mean, Bayonetta? Really?), but there is probably more coming from some of the gaming audience than the actual games. Most of the sexuality in games are no different than what you would see in movies or a Carl's Jr. ad, yet because of the death/rape threats and the comments sections of some popular game sites(where sprinkled among the petty talk of console favoritism and 'this game is better' complaints is some actual misogynistic dialogue) she has more ammo. Many people who play games aren't what she paints them to be, but some of the internet tough guys are doing their darnedest to earn the validation.

...and this is the thing, what she is asking for isn't that much, its a critical analysis from a feminist perspective. Her whole mission is to highlight the ways in which games are perpetuating sexist themes. To ask people to consider maybe not just trying to save your girlfriend, or to not have women only in background roles, or why its always women there, and if that is right, which can be asked on an overall, or case by case basis, because it is criticism, it is critical of the subject matter. None of these things make a game *bad* from a fun/enjoyment perspective, nor will addressing it ruin a story. Some of Anita's first videos do address movies and other pop culture, and these did not cause such a stir, but now the focus is on games, all hell has broken loose, and like you say, the many people aren't what they are being painted as, but the 'you mess with our games, we'll threaten your life!' is not a valid response to, well, anything..

Then instead of talking about feminism the focus moves to journalistic ethics.. which is another bizzarre thing, because its linked to accusations and 'proof' that journalists are colluding with the indie devs, mostly women, to give them more exposure, bend to publishers wishes and are all in contact with each other. This is without the understanding that of course people who work in a public facing industry full of trade shows, conferences, press events, roadshows plus twitter/facebook/reddit etc, people from many different websites/outlets get brought together and may, you know, get to know each other. The same thing happens at science conferences, does that mean biologists are all together as part of a global flu conspiracy? Yes there are 'ethical' issues with bias across all journalism, particularly around opinion pieces or reviews, because you are asking one persons opinion and asking them to place an arbitrary number/grade to something... but that is no less 'ethical' than choosing Fox/Sky news then being surprised at the strong right leaning balance.

... and then I'm told its not about women, but about ethics... but if I look back at the first and only time I sent a Tweet with the unspeakable hashtag (which basically said "have people forgotten to be nice to each other?"), the first response was regarding Zoe Quinn apparently blowing five guys. Which apparently isn't true. Or is it? You know, what is harder to believe, a blog post written by an ex-boyfriend, or a woman saying that its not true. Who has more to loose? And even if it is true, does it make Depression Quest (which I believe was releasing on Steam that week.. hmm?) a bad game? I call bullshit on the whole thing.

Corvus T. Cosmonaut
10-17-2014, 11:29 PM
It's increasingly clear that the shroud is a filmsy neon facade they've only chosen to call "ETHICS" with big air-quotes — where "unethical" means covering the stories of Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn et al without "balancing" that story by explaining that GamerGate "is totally about ethics in journalism", that "it isn't about misogyny", that some anti-GG writer for a web site "also said bullying things", that "there are concerns about the veracity of the threats these women have received!", especially that "there are many women that support GamerGate!", and various other concerns pertaining mostly to harassment. The ethical take to them is the one that goes out of its way to make them look best.

Some good pieces:


It's Dangerous to Go Alone: Why Are Gamers So Angry?: The subset of entitled, belligerent gamers convinced that being ‘objectively’ right entitles them to defend their rightness by any means necessary is overwhelmingly male.

"No, they say it’s about “corruption.” About “developers in bed with reviewers,” and the stain this leaves on the “integrity of games journalism.” At its most feverish, it becomes about the “conspiracy” of cliquish insiders that controls the industry, silences dissenting voices and ultimately harms all gamers by keeping their desires from being heard in favor of the “feminist agenda.”

"To which I can only respond, “ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?!”"

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/28/it-s-dangerous-to-go-alone-why-are-gamers-so-angry.html


Of Gamers, Gates, and Disco Demolition: The Roots of Reactionary Rage
How are YouTube videos criticizing sexist video games important enough to threaten a school shooting? Read the #GamerGate tag and realize that underneath the anger is fear.

"Does any of this ancient history of the bellbottom era sound familiar to you, fellow millennial geeks? Same song, different lyrics. Different battlefield, but the same “culture war,” the same sides."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/16/of-gamers-gates-and-disco-demolition-the-roots-of-reactionary-rage.html


How to attack a woman who works in video gaming: A culture of hate and suspicion has descended on the games industry, and at the centre of the vortex is a familiar foe: women. Ask Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn.

"When harassing brave women, be sure to maintain that your campaign isn’t about gender. And in a way, it isn’t. Sustained abuse knows no gender, race, religion or creed. It hurts everybody."

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/01/how-to-attack-a-woman-who-works-in-video-games


The Routine Harassment of Women in Male Dominated Spaces

"What this whole “#gamergate” thing is really about depends a lot on who you’re asking. If you ask someone who writes about games for a living, or someone who keeps in touch with what’s happening with indie game devs (lots of other indie game devs, for instance), they’ll all give you the same answer. It’s a massive, loosely organized campaign, spurred on by a pack of angry angry kids formerly from 4chan, now from 8chan, bent on utterly destroying the lives of an ever-growing list of women, starting with Zoë Quinn, and added to any time a woman publicly calls them out for it.

"If you ask the people who show up if you mention #gamergate in a tweet, or look at 8chan.co/gg/ or various youtube videos, you’ll get a different answer every week or two, as each answer they come up with is firmly debunked, and they scramble to find a new one. Even then though, if you pull the thread long enough, they’ll always toss out the name of SOME woman involved in gaming at some level who is the root of some perceived evil."

http://secretgamergirl.tumblr.com/post/100182276170/the-routine-harassment-of-women-in-male-dominated


The Future Of The Culture Wars Is Here, And It's Gamergate

"By design, Gamergate is nearly impossible to define. (...) This ambiguity is useful, because it turns any discussion of this subject into a debate over semantics. Really, though, Gamergate is exactly what it appears to be: a relatively small and very loud group of video game enthusiasts who claim that their goal is to audit ethics in the gaming-industrial complex and who are instead defined by the campaigns of criminal harassment that some of them have carried out against several women. (Whether the broader Gamergate movement is a willing or inadvertent semi-respectable front here is an interesting but ultimately irrelevant question.)"

http://deadspin.com/the-future-of-the-culture-wars-is-here-and-its-gamerga-1646145844

FernandoDante
10-20-2014, 09:11 PM
Eh, I think my point is better shown on those posts below.

Jinsai
10-20-2014, 09:17 PM
what the hell?

FernandoDante
10-20-2014, 09:25 PM
Honestly, I was a bit sick of seeing the broad, judgemental statements surrounding GG. First, all GG supporters were shoehorned in with the people making threats; now, they're just being called autistic. Autism as an insult is not cool - yet it's only a minority of anti-GG people using that argument.

GG became a situation where the worst things were the least said, yet most heard ones.

And around these parts, there's no better example of misrepresentation than billpulsipher. So the story wound up gigantic and ridiculous, but so is most of the shit written about this subject anyway.

EDIT: I'll just add that I don't even agree much with the "journalism ethics" side of GG. I'm sure there are issues, and gaming journalism is mostly fucked, but the complaints were unfocused. Especially the Zoe Quinn ones. The part that really bothered me was seeing "gamers" being called dead, or that people who play this and that are horrible misogynistic shitlords. Defining people through their hobbies - a concept I thought was long gone by now.

Sarah K
10-20-2014, 09:46 PM
I don't think that anyone believes ALL people who play video games are sexist shitbags. However, to pretend like this whole shitstorm is somehow about "ethics" is really, really dumb. Are the people making rape and death threats a minority? Absolutely. But it is still a HUGE problem that needs addressed. Along with the general under-representation of women in the field.

FernandoDante
10-20-2014, 10:00 PM
I don't think that anyone believes ALL people who play video games are sexist shitbags. However, to pretend like this whole shitstorm is somehow about "ethics" is really, really dumb. Are the people making rape and death threats a minority? Absolutely. But it is still a HUGE problem that needs addressed. Along with the general under-representation of women in the field.
A few more outspoken people did generalize and say "all people who play games". A very, very small number of course. A not so small number is the one now saying "I knew I was right to bully nerds in school". That's a huge step backward for anyone involved with gaming in any capacity.

And yes, it needs to be addressed because gaming can inadvertently perpetuate ignorance about sexism. Not that there's a conspiracy to turn everyone into woman-haters, but it's a lack of creativity in recreating commercially successful stories that didn't set the best example for female characters.

As for women who work in gaming, there's the whole GameJam / Fine Young Capitalists debate, which went on forever and got so little media coverage.

There's good people and valid statements on each side. There's piles of shit on each side. But the media was adamant in showing only one side, which was sad, and brings gaming coverage that much closer to political coverage, and to sucking in general.

Corvus T. Cosmonaut
10-21-2014, 02:46 AM
Honestly, I was a bit sick of seeing the broad, judgemental statements surrounding GG.
The whole origin of #GamerGate was based in sexist, hateful response to Zoe Quinn, and it immediately became a flag against an extension of culture war, where its targets were those seeking to shine the light of cultural criticism on the medium, particularly where that light involved questioning the way sex/gender issues were concerned. The literal origin of the tag was harassment of Zoe Quinn, and it has remained in use against Zoe Quinn (and Brianna Wu, and Anita Sarkeesian, and Leigh Alexander, and others), while only after the fact did the other justifications come out as attempts at legitimacy. Why would those not in support of this harassment not create their own hash tag to distance themselves from what was poisonous by design? Is it because they wanted to use the GamerGate momentum? Because if so, it isn't working out so well as more mainstream media looks into the story. Is it because they are hateful misogynists at heart? Clearly not, because the people making dummy accounts and issuing death threats are, we all agree, a minority. Is it because they buy the narrative of, Here are these people who aren't gamers criticizing games?

And if it is the latter, one wonders: 1) that action considered taboo, how are games ever to be respected as art; 2) that action considered taboo, how is the medium ever supposed to address actual ethical concerns?

FernandoDante
10-21-2014, 07:35 AM
The whole origin of #GamerGate was based in sexist, hateful response to Zoe Quinn


I know I can't even try to convince you that things were different because this is the very first point where people started arguing, and it hasn't changed since. The sexist response was there, as were people questioning the level of involvement between developers and journalists - which happened before the Zoe Quinn thing anyway, just on a much smaller scale. If GG had spurred from the GameJournoPros mailing list, where that one journalist said "let's be honest, who hasn't fucked a PR person here?", GG would've been fundamentally similar (if smaller), and there would be no accusations of sexism in its origin. Of course, eventually, other people would get involved in the fight, people bringing sexism into the discussion, which would bring out an anti-feminist response, and everything would go to hell anyway because those extremes exist, there's no denying them, and they will get into a conflict anyway. But then the excuse for every website to dismiss GG wouldn't be "it started as a hate campaign against Zoe Quinn", it would be "it devolved into a bunch of hateful tweets against Anita Sarkeesian". Which existed completely outside GG before and after that, but people watching CBS won't ever know or care about that.

And, as I've said before, I think the complaints about ethics in journalism were pretty unfocused. Yes, I'm sure that industry is fucked up in many ways, but there's little evidence to go about questioning it. The part of GG that got me really interested was the "gamers are dead" thing, as if every website out there was saying "long live the casuals - give us all your clicks!"

For what it's worth, I think the best thing written on GG by any non-indie website came from Penny Arcade. They miss the mark often, so I was surprised to see it so on the spot this time:


You can’t threaten people with death, and I resent very strongly being made to type that out. Not only can you not do that because you can’t fucking do it, it has the power to obliterate everything else you say. In fact, it obliterates everything the people around you are trying to say. That’s what has happened now. I know that this situation is more complex than anyone is willing to enunciate. I know that “Gaming Journalism” is a contradiction in terms. But they’ve broken your banner, now, and you helped them do it. I grieve for the ones who tried to do it right. When your media doesn’t represent you, or actively attacks you as it has here, it’s not your media. You’ll have to make your own, and it’s not impossible. It’s more possible now than it has ever been in human history, and you’re reading an example of it at this moment. Go your own way.

Jinsai
10-21-2014, 01:11 PM
Even if the person who threatened Brianna Wu and Anita Sarkeesian are actually the same person (which I actually think is somewhat likely), it's still alarming that people are still defending the gamergate "cause" in a way that practically ignores that development. For a while, I'd see those comments about Zoe Quinn popping up everywhere, almost like spam, and still really have no idea what they were talking about.

So I look into it, and I find a discussion where people are championing the guy (her ex boyfriend I guess) who started this by posting info about her infidelity online. These guys were calling him a victim of "sexual abuse" and "psychological torment." Even if everything he's saying is true, and everything he insinuates about her motivations turns out to be correct, this is the point where you jump ship. Sorry, cheating is not "abuse."

If the majority of your movement is not decrying the involvement of the men's rights activists, time to separate yourself from that movement.

FernandoDante
10-21-2014, 02:23 PM
These guys were calling him a victim of "sexual abuse" and "psychological torment." Even if everything he's saying is true, and everything he insinuates about her motivations turns out to be correct, this is the point where you jump ship. Sorry, cheating is not "abuse."


By Zoe Quinn's own definition of rape, if you cheat on a person you're in a relationship with, then have sex with that person without telling them about the cheating, you're raping them. And it's something I can kinda agree with, because you're having sex with them without consent. Hell, even Anthony Burch, noted "SJW" and anti-GG, said Zoe Quinn abused and molested her ex. Anthony Burch went back to videos he posted on YouTube years ago, just to add trigger warnings to them. And even he admitted that what Zoe Quinn's ex went through was rape.

"so you're saying it's right to" NO it's not right to make a novel out of your relationship like that.

Jinsai
10-21-2014, 04:01 PM
By Zoe Quinn's own definition of rape, if you cheat on a person you're in a relationship with, then have sex with that person without telling them about the cheating, you're raping them.

You've basically gone around the long way here to drag out an explanation of what cheating is (we all know what it is), and then implied that it's somehow rape. It's not.

Where did Zoe Quinn say that cheating on someone is tantamount to rape? Where did this Anthony Burch guy say that Quinn raped her ex?

This is all bullshit by the way. If people are actually making this comparison, they are seriously bastardizing the clear definition of rape. I have never, EVER heard someone accuse a man of raping his wife or girlfriend just because they found out he was cheating. This is the first time I've ever seen someone draw an accusation of rape against someone for cheating on their partner... is it because she's a woman?

Fucking ridiculous. Where is the quote from Quinn where she says this?

Rabbit
10-21-2014, 04:26 PM
Cheating is rape now? lmao what.

The internet.

Dra508
10-21-2014, 04:32 PM
By Zoe Quinn's own definition of rape, if you cheat on a person you're in a relationship with, then have sex with that person without telling them about the cheating, you're raping them. And it's something I can kinda agree with, because you're having sex with them without consent. Hell, even Anthony Burch, noted "SJW" and anti-GG, said Zoe Quinn abused and molested her ex. Anthony Burch went back to videos he posted on YouTube years ago, just to add trigger warnings to them. And even he admitted that what Zoe Quinn's ex went through was rape.

"so you're saying it's right to" NO it's not right to make a novel out of your relationship like that.
All this is subterfuge to the origins of as you call it GG. Seriously, what is it? Public shaming a women for cheating on a guy can't possibly be what folks are hanging their hat on. /smh

FernandoDante
10-21-2014, 07:34 PM
You've basically gone around the long way here to drag out an explanation of what cheating is (we all know what it is), and then implied that it's somehow rape. It's not.

Where did Zoe Quinn say that cheating on someone is tantamount to rape? Where did this Anthony Burch guy say that Quinn raped her ex?

This is all bullshit by the way. If people are actually making this comparison, they are seriously bastardizing the clear definition of rape. I have never, EVER heard someone accuse a man of raping his wife or girlfriend just because they found out he was cheating. This is the first time I've ever seen someone draw an accusation of rape against someone for cheating on their partner... is it because she's a woman?

Fucking ridiculous. Where is the quote from Quinn where she says this?
God, I don't know where to even look for it at this point. EDIT: it was from a chatlog between Zoe Quinn and her ex, she mentions she still agrees with her stance and admits to "fucking up". I know actual rape victims would rightfully feel angry at that concept, but then again, SJWs tend to question the term "actual rape victims". "You mean some people can be less raped than others?"

"is it because she's a woman?" Well, Zoe Quinn is a woman, and she was the first one I ever saw coming up with this shit, so I'd ask her.

Anthony Burch said it a few days in the middle of another argument on Twitter. Like, "for a movement that spurred from disgust after a woman sexually and mentally abused her ex, GG sure is..." something.

I can see the logic behind this idea. If a person would only have consensual sex with someone under certain conditions, and one of those conditions is no longer present, then sex occurs without consent. If you knew the other person was having sex with someone else, you wouldn't have unprotected sex with them; if the person willfully lies and says they're not sleeping with anyone, then you have sex with them, it's sex without consent. It wouldn't have occurred if not for the lie.

Dra508
10-22-2014, 11:21 AM
I can see the logic behind this idea. If a person would only have consensual sex with someone under certain conditions, and one of those conditions is no longer present, then sex occurs without consent. If you knew the other person was having sex with someone else, you wouldn't have unprotected sex with them; if the person willfully lies and says they're not sleeping with anyone, then you have sex with them, it's sex without consent. It wouldn't have occurred if not for the lie.Just stop please. You are proving the point that anyone can make Gamergate whatever they want it to be. Cheating = rape is one of the more inane concepts I've heard come out of this story. Seriously. Turn it around.

FernandoDante
10-22-2014, 03:03 PM
Just stop please. You are proving the point that anyone can make Gamergate whatever they want it to be. Cheating = rape is one of the more inane concepts I've heard come out of this story. Seriously. Turn it around.
That last post wasn't really about GG anymore (I didn't mention gaming once), and I've steered this way off-topic, but anyway. The first time I saw anyone mention the concept, it was Zoe Quinn. And I kinda agreed with her on it. And now I'm getting shit for it.

Wouldn't you agree that sex without consent is sex without consent? The word "rape" can mean different things in different parts of the world (sometimes it's just intercourse, sometimes it talks about other actions), but I think "sex without consent" is an ok term to use in this case. If it were Phil Fish cheating on his girlfriend it'd be gross and repulsive the same way. I'm generally anti-cheating to the point where friends who cheat on their wives consider me not cool to hang around.

playwithfire
10-22-2014, 03:10 PM
No, sorry. Cheating isn't sex without consent because the people cheating are consenting.

Does infidelity sometimes expose partners to risk of disease and shitty things like that? Does it ignore boundaries and disrespect someone? Yes.

But it isn't sex without consent.

FernandoDante
10-22-2014, 03:37 PM
No, sorry. Cheating isn't sex without consent because the people cheating are consenting.

Does infidelity sometimes expose partners to risk of disease and shitty things like that? Does it ignore boundaries and disrespect someone? Yes.

But it isn't sex without consent.
Well that's a good point. I still think that, if a person says "I won't have sex with you if you cheat on me", then it happens after the cheating/lying, it's without consent.

I don't think that's an offensive point of view, and I don't think I can explain it further than I already have. So I'll shut up before repeating myself again.

Dra508
10-22-2014, 03:46 PM
Drift

http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2014-10-22/women-and-online-harassmentI

I listened to part of this show today. It was bent towards the legality of cyber harassment relative to the issues reported within this Gamergate story. The comments section even has some trolls. Thank you ETS for managing that kind so so well.

Jinsai
10-22-2014, 03:54 PM
Well, now, thanks to this thread, I know what an SJW is... And I can't believe somebody is actually using that in a way that isn't intended to be ironic

elevenism
10-22-2014, 03:54 PM
i was with a girl who...well...ok, i told her i probably couldn't be with her if she couldn't go down on me. it might have been kind of dickheaded but it was true. well, we were together for 3 years and she did, in fact, go down on me.
and then some counselor convinced her that every time she did, it was RAPE! and that made me a RAPIST! a SERIAL RAPIST!

as far as misogyny in gaming...yeah, it's definitely there and awful and won't go away any time soon. it will lag behind tv and movies, and there is still plenty of it there.

but with gaming especially, well, they are selling a product, not trying to satisfy everyone, and correct me if i'm wrong, but i think most gamers are still "men of a certain age."

note that i said "most" before everyone jumps my ass.
@FernandoDante (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=264) i DO kinda get what you're saying, but still...i think calling those things "rape" belittles the horror of what rape really is.
That's "fucking someone after you cheated on them."
And what i did was "get sexual favors as part of an agreement in a relationship."

Nobody got raped.

And misogyny in gaming...i hate to say it but it's almost like violence in gaming.
it's kind of a moot point today, unfortunately.

allegro
10-22-2014, 03:57 PM
The legal system in the U.S. no longer uses the term "rape." It's called "sexual assault." For a reason.

My husband played WoW with lots of females, we know female gamers. There are PRO female gamers in South Korea (http://www.business2community.com/tech-gadgets/koreas-1-female-starcraft-gamer-tossgirl-retires-after-decade-of-gaming-0211070). My husband has androgynous and female game characters. I guess it just depends on what circles you're in?

Misogyny exists everywhere, and the Internet (where GG is happening) is certainly no exception. And the computer and/or gaming industry has always been a sausage fest.

elevenism
10-22-2014, 06:56 PM
My wife is an avid (read: kicks my ass at video games and watches me play and tells me where to go) gamer, so i am well aware that there are plenty of female gamers.
But like you said, @allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) , misogyny does exist everywhere, and with the computer industry being a "sausage fest," i suspect that it will take longer to get rid of it in gaming than in other mediums.

Of course, i may be wrong...god damn near everything started out as a sausage fest. maybe it's just because gaming is younger. (edit: a younger industry than say, film, not the age group)

Now, off to find out what "GG" and "SJW" mean.

Edit: wow. social justice warrior sounds like it should be a good thing, not used as a pejorative

FernandoDante
10-22-2014, 06:58 PM
I'm looking at the small stack of games I have in front of me here, and wondering how many women I know in real life who would play them. And the answer, I think, is zero. I know zero women who would touch Fallout 3, Portal 2, Mass Effect, Dark Souls, XCOM, Gran Turismo, Assassin's Creed, Little Big Planet... the fact that you can control women in them, or that those women are strong characters, or that there is no sexuality to the game, is irrelevant. Because they're "nerd shit" and these women have "better things to do" than wasting their time on it. They'd rather watch the soap opera or sports or something, because that's not a waste of time for them. So yeah, there's a cultural issue where one hobby is seen as less worthy than the other. I wouldn't touch soap operas or football, but I see them for what they are, just hobbies.

And you see trolls reacting to GG on twitter, and it's mostly "fucking feminists" or "fucking nerds". It sucks. Those are fake accounts, but real people who share those opinions.

elevenism
10-22-2014, 07:02 PM
FernandoDante , the woman asleep in my bed LOVES some of those games.
Female gamers are out there, i promise you.

allegro
10-22-2014, 07:05 PM
Yeah, that was pretty sexist but maybe it's because he's from a sexist country.

FernandoDante
10-22-2014, 07:35 PM
@FernandoDante (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=264) , the woman asleep in my bed LOVES some of those games.
Female gamers are out there, i promise you.
I said women I know in real life. How does that get translated into saying there are no female gamers? They're few, nonexistent in some corners or social circles of the planet - like the one I live in. One thing allegro was right about is that I live in a very different reality, but what I said wasn't sexist, it's just statement on the people I know. I'm certain you know plenty of people who share the opinion that gaming is "nerd shit", both men and women.

How that warrants another facepalm from Sarah K is beyond me.

allegro
10-22-2014, 08:14 PM
I said women I know in real life. How does that get translated into saying there are no female gamers? They're few, nonexistent in some corners or social circles of the planet - like the one I live in. One thing allegro was right about is that I live in a very different reality, but what I said wasn't sexist, it's just statement on the people I know. I'm certain you know plenty of people who share the opinion that gaming is "nerd shit", both men and women.

How that warrants another facepalm from Sarah K is beyond me.

Well, because we're not talking about people we know in real life, are we? We're talking about women within the demographics of the gaming community, not "women in general." Most of the GUYS I know (lawyers at work, for instance) think gaming is for weird guys with a lot of acne who can't find dates who eat potato chips all day and live with their mom in the basement.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090924024732/linglogic/images/7/7b/Cartman-wow-sunder.jpg

You're right, though, in that there are stereotypes about both males and females. I don't think the stereotype about female gamers is "fucking feminists," though. It's more like "she was playing WoW for so long, she FORGOT SHE HAD KIDS." Or Mother stabs kid for interrupting her Farmville Game (http://www.ranker.com/list/top-8-most-fatally-negligent-gamer-parents-of-all-time/michael-gibson?var=5&utm_expid=16418821-66.2vofEU_-TfqUYwzK_OeZiQ.4&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F).

I used to be totally addicted to Doom back in the day. So much so that I began to believe (still do) that our lives here on Earth are really just a giant game of Doom, and that we get to the very end and realize that we forgot to get the fucking Green Key on level 6 (oh, no, I forgot to have KIDS; oh, shit, I didn't help that old dude cross the street!) and we gotta come BACK and do the whole fucking thing all over again. (Unless we somehow figure out how to IDDQD it on the next level, but I do not think that is possible for us mortals.)

FernandoDante
10-22-2014, 08:34 PM
Well, because we're not talking about people we know in real life, are we? We're talking about women within the demographics of the gaming community, not "women in general." Most of the GUYS I know (lawyers at work, for instance) think gaming is for weird guys with a lot of acne who can't find dates who eat potato chips all day and live with their mom in the basement.



I wish there were a lot more women like that. I think it's awesome that elevenism's wife loves games. Last time I was going out with a girl and told her I played games, she sorta laughed at me and changed the subject. Another one said, "I guess I can forgive you for that".


Most guys I know, who are around my age, think gaming is ok. A bunch of them are lawyers who I used to study with. I don't care about how many people actively play games, but seeing game as the thing for "weird guys with a lot of acne..." is something that should end. It kinda felt like it would, some time in the last few years, but GG and the events around it have made everything go backwards in the public eye. Maybe I should care less about that, but from my background of having to deal with a lot of bullshit for liking games, I wish things would be different by now.

allegro
10-22-2014, 09:09 PM
My husband is back to playing WoW again, some new patch came out or something, I dunno, and I asked him if he heard of this GG thing, and he had NO idea. He said when they're raiding or whatever, those guys are mostly blathering about politics or some shit, but nobody has said shit about this GG thing. So it appears to be completely outside of THAT gaming community. HOWEVER, BlizzCon is coming up and they hired METALLICA to play. Wtf.

Dude, I know people who think that people who sit around on a computer talking to people on FORUMS are weird and don't have any "real friends." You can't worry about what others think. Fuck 'em.

Dra508
10-23-2014, 10:19 AM
http://www.salon.com/2014/10/21/chris_kluwe_i_hope_you_all_every_gamergater_picks_ up_a_debilitating_case_of_genital_warts/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Chris Kluwe has a way with words. I haven't hear 'fuck me sideways' in a really long long time. Regardless, he wraps Gamergate pretty well especially taking offense to the bad behaviors.

fillow
10-23-2014, 10:25 AM
http://explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Matt/I-could-go-on-and-on-about-this-subject,-but-what-it-all-boils-down-to-is-PEOPLE-ARE-STUPID.png

Jinsai
10-23-2014, 12:57 PM
The whole "fake geek girl" concept is central to this in some way that I'm having a hard time putting my finger on. There is the idea that video games (and nerdy hobbies in general) are the sole property of men, and when a woman shows interest in that hobby they are seeing it as an invader in the club house, with some kind of ulterior motive?

I actually used to believe that there was a small subset of this sort of person, based entirely upon one person I knew... and now that I've encountered this term, she actually did seem to fit the stereotype of the girl who wanted to string along nerdy guys who would worship the ground she walked on. She was really the only real world example I've encountered of that sort of thing though. Maybe it is more common than that, but to assume that any girl who has a nerdy hobby is feigning it is... I don't know if it's malicious, but it sounds paranoid at the very least.

allegro
10-23-2014, 02:35 PM
You can't "fake" that shit, though. No way. Sit down and play Halo with her, then it all falls apart.

It just sounds like a sausage fest that SOME boys don't want invaded.

Females were ALWAYS involved in the nerdy hobbies.

edit: This is interesting (https://medium.com/@increment/the-first-female-gamers-c784fbe3ff37)

Dra508
10-23-2014, 06:09 PM
edit: This is interesting (https://medium.com/@increment/the-first-female-gamers-c784fbe3ff37)Wow, reminded me of a guy I dated when I was 15 who was into D&D. Now, that I think about it, I'm not sure I was ever offered an opportunity to play with him. Hmmmmmm. In other related news, I work in a field dominated by men. 99.9% of them don't treat me any different then their male colleagues. There was this one guy, who said straight to my face "you're pretty nerdy for a pretty woman." Wait wut?

Iran_Ed
10-23-2014, 11:51 PM
It just sounds like a sausage fest that SOME boys don't want invaded.

I had a conversation with a friend, and felt like i should put this here.

This entire situation is just bringing out all the toxic "gamers" who are the stereotype of what people who don't know anything about gaming think the community is. For years I've watched the fanboy wars and then the rise of Call of Duty and I've just been disgusted. Some of these guys treat gaming with an almost cult like mentality. When someone says something disparaging about gaming they go off. Now you have women shining a very bright light on the sexism in both games and in the journalistic aspect of the business. What you have are a bunch of guys who for probably the first time in their lives are being told their social views of the world, and the worlds portrayed in games aren't realistic. These attacks on women feel like guys trying to preserve what I'm sure they think is one of the last frontiers of their masculinity.The boundaries men will cross to not feel emasculated are amazing.

I'm no expert on any of this but, that's just how i feel.

Wretchedest
10-25-2014, 01:24 AM
Gamergate is just really sad to me. It's the sort of thing that just seems like some big bad made up boogie man, but holy shit, when you dig deeper there are really a lot of these guys and they all have this really bizarre similar retoric about hey we're misunderstood, if you would only listen. and then you listen and it's just as fucked up and weird and convoluted.

If they cared about journalism They'd be all over Gmae Informer and IGNs asses. Hell Game Informer literally has financial ties to the top game retailer in the United States. they don't give a fuck about that. They're a bunch of psycho assholes looking for attention about something that absolutely does not matter.

It's especially sad becaue i feel like gaming HAS been doing a better job letting women in. Surely my gaming group has an almost even blend, and I feel like I've seen less of it around in general. This nonsense has just gotten out of hand

Jinsai
10-27-2014, 08:30 PM
I ask this as a serious question about some of the complaints that Anita Sarkeesian brings up in her videos. The portrayal of women in hyper sexualized manners... I'm not sure if the complaint is upset particularly with a lack of sexualized male characters to balance the portrayal, but I started thinking about it...

Male characters in video games are almost always fit and stereotypically attractive. You rarely see a portrayal of a lead male character in a video game who is not, in some basic way, portrayed in a manner which would be appealing to straight females.

If you were to even try to hypersexualize a male character in a video game in a manner that would actually appeal to straight women, how would you do it?

orestes
10-27-2014, 08:32 PM
When Stormfront is one of your defenders, it's time to close up shop. (https://twitter.com/NotAllBhas/status/526853873949220865)

xmd 5a
10-28-2014, 06:18 AM
When Stormfront is one of your defenders, it's time to close up shop. (https://twitter.com/NotAllBhas/status/526853873949220865)

It was only a matter of time. Extreme right-wingers birthed the hashtag and have infested it from day one. When A Voice for Men (practically the male-supremacy version of Stormfront) signed on, I pretty much knew Stormfront wouldn't be far behind.

And look at the kind of people who are prominent voices in the "movement":
http://medium.com/@poopsockholmes/the-bad-apples-of-gamergate-ba39f8fd485

WorzelG
11-26-2014, 03:42 AM
As a woman who is 41 and considers myself a gamer, of a generation where it's not the done thing so I've had some flack from people, family whatever, the one thing I want to scream at people involved in the gamergate hashtag is 'they're just fucking games for gods sake'. Like who gives a fuck that Anita whatever her name is has a video complaining about sexism in games, don't fucking watch it. It makes me hate the human race how nasty people can get on the Internet

jmtd
12-08-2014, 10:03 AM
This thread is great. Thanks for all bring great people.

DigitalChaos
12-08-2014, 03:41 PM
The whole "fake geek girl" concept is central to this in some way that I'm having a hard time putting my finger on. There is the idea that video games (and nerdy hobbies in general) are the sole property of men, and when a woman shows interest in that hobby they are seeing it as an invader in the club house, with some kind of ulterior motive?

I actually used to believe that there was a small subset of this sort of person, based entirely upon one person I knew... and now that I've encountered this term, she actually did seem to fit the stereotype of the girl who wanted to string along nerdy guys who would worship the ground she walked on. She was really the only real world example I've encountered of that sort of thing though. Maybe it is more common than that, but to assume that any girl who has a nerdy hobby is feigning it is... I don't know if it's malicious, but it sounds paranoid at the very least.


You can't "fake" that shit, though. No way. Sit down and play Halo with her, then it all falls apart.

It just sounds like a sausage fest that SOME boys don't want invaded.

Females were ALWAYS involved in the nerdy hobbies.

edit: This is interesting (https://medium.com/@increment/the-first-female-gamers-c784fbe3ff37)

Eh, it goes back to like 15 years ago when it started to become cool to be a geek. You saw stores like Hot Topic carrying all those video game and random geek culture shirts. Any scene is going to get "posers" in it. The reasons differ for each person. I saw many girls AND guys do it. The ones who do it in an effort to be attractive to others is kinda weird and is what gets the most negative attention, especially when they have no desire to pick up the skills. But if someone demonstrates their geek cred... then stfu already. Proving your geek cred is also something that gets prompted no matter what sex you are.

That said, the majority of people who actively call out people for posing are posing themselves. The rest don't really give a shit unless they are the social failures that are only able to "interact" with someone via keyboard.

littlemonkey613
12-08-2014, 06:23 PM
If you were to even try to hypersexualize a male character in a video game in a manner that would actually appeal to straight women, how would you do it?

To me this conundrum is one of the biggest proofs of how deeply entrenched in patriarchy society is. There is no equivalent in terms of longstanding mythos or institutional power when it comes to straight female desire.

Like, when it comes to the lead male characters being stereotypically attractive, its likely when making their designs, what woman would think was very low on the list of priorities. Man culture defines what makes an attractive man as well. You can recognize this when girls like stuff like Twilight, or boy band boys and shit. There is so much rage and anger at the fact that its impossible to understand how a girl could like guys that "look like girls" or who "look gay" and shit. Look at any comments on any youtube video of a boy that teenage girls are crazy about and you will see the straight male anger.

Constant hypersexualization, being a common form of oppression for minority groups can only really exist within a dynamic that is already so fucked up and lopsided. What would it look like? Idk.

To me what is interesting to think about is the fact that there would still be a clear difference. If you successfully designed a male video game character like that, they wouldn't make up this like ridiculous percentage of all male video game characters like it is when it comes to female characters.

It's all pretty astounding to me. Like I play League of Legends and its just like wtf... like some of the female design characters are cool and I have no problem with a "hypersexualized" character if it is like innate to their personality, their lore or if there is a cool reason for it. The problem is obviously that it is a logic applied to a percentage of female characters that is like absolutely disgusting and warped to the point of practically defining female characters in gaming.

What really bothers me is that idk how or when society will stop automatically associating the female body with sex. I hate that paradox its like the worst. So many scantily clad female characters obviously has to be pointed out because the trend is steeped in this horrible misogyny, but then those arguments by virtue of their nature also enforce the idea that exposed female body parts are like synonymous with sex, which is half the problem to begin with. I've been trying to come up with a way to argue against the constant hypersexualization without falling into the trap of implying things I don't even agree with but its really hard and frustrating.

u.u

Idk if this all made any sense but this is a really hard topic

tony.parente
12-22-2014, 06:07 AM
what the fuck? the lengths people will go to in order to spread hate never fails to surprise me. @slave2thewage (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=89)
I'm very late to this party, but that is just trolls trolling trolls trolling trolls. I know it's a hateful place but that place is probably the most LGBTQ 'friendly' place I have ever been on in my entire life...at least sexually friendly. That place is splattered with 'trap' threads. Also fun fact, Moot also has a romantic connection with Ms. Anita Sarkeesian. If you hop onto /r9k/ the place is practically in ruins due to Moot flooding the place with 'sjw' mods, to the point to where Moot actually had a mini meltdown and went off on everyone there last week.

Here is a halfway decent rundown of what's been happening. Heads up: this write up is very much in the spirit of /b/ circa 2004-2010, so just understand it's factual info being put forth in that style of humor or whatever.

https://encyclopediadramatica.se/M00t's_GamerGate_Sellout

Aladdinsanity
03-11-2015, 12:30 AM
So... it's been what? 7 months since this thing set off? It apparently hasn't let up much at all and now it's even gotten to the point where congresswoman Katherine Clark of Massachusetts has openly stated that the FBI needs to it a priority.

http://jezebel.com/rep-katherine-clark-the-fbi-needs-to-make-gamergate-a-1690599361

WorzelG
03-11-2015, 02:31 AM
I think the actual online services need to step up and start policing their own sites properly. I think twitter really sucks for allowing this shit to happen. They always hide behind the 'free speech' mantra, but does that even apply to privately owned sites?

thelastdisciple
03-01-2016, 01:28 AM
So this Medium story has been going around about a guy who posed as a feminist critic for sites like The Mary Sue. It's quite an interesting read, it covers some article he submitted about sexism regarding FFVII and how he was bullshitting about all of it and lots of people ate it up.

Thoughts?

https://medium.com/listen-to-my-story/what-i-learned-as-feminist-critic-sandy-beaches-f1ee45a7e0aa#.zf93br5qi

Has the Sarkeesian bubble burst yet?

To quote American McGee:
"Those who critique games looking for sexism commit the same fallacy as those who trust headlines promoting the idea of sexist games (and gamers). You cannot know an issue by reading a headline - you cannot know a game by looking at its butts."

tony.parente
03-01-2016, 01:40 AM
I saw that and it's beautiful. Welcome to 3rd wave feminism.
http://i.imgur.com/cl2FkOEl.jpg

Jinsai
03-01-2016, 02:06 AM
Sarkeesian is a horrible flag carrier for feminism. I don't even want to get into addressing her "points," because it's ludicrously easy to tear them to pieces, but she does a disservice to anyone actually concerned with feminism by bolstering herself as a leading figure for a cause that she barely understands.

Sexism is a very big issue in video games (and every other form of popular culture that primarily sells itself to straight men), and it's only made worse by having clueless opportunists like Sarkeesian cash in on it.

But the stupid form of modern internet discourse has rendered anyone who is irritated by her bullshit some "reddit mens-rights-activist" sort... I hate our inability to call something what it is, especially when it's flagrantly stupid.

Sallos
03-01-2016, 04:45 AM
Thankfully this was lost battle from the start, the supposed sexism and misogyny in gaming never was a problem. Meanwhile competent women developers will continue to produce quality games, such as portal, and the misogynistic game community will continue to consume it. The biggest problem is the dumbing down of games, specially FPS and even RPGs, but thank god for indie games and kickstarter for giving the possibility for non casual gamers to enjoy a challenge.

Volband
03-01-2016, 05:54 AM
Thankfully this was lost battle from the start, the supposed sexism and misogyny in gaming never was a problem. Meanwhile competent women developers will continue to produce quality games, such as portal, and the misogynistic game community will continue to consume it. The biggest problem is the dumbing down of games, specially FPS and even RPGs, but thank god for indie games and kickstarter for giving the possibility for non casual gamers to enjoy a challenge.
There is literally a site, which evaluates every single female League of Legends champion skins whether it's sexist (=shows too much skin, big boobs, whatever bullshit) or not. Haha, some people take shit way too seriously. I mean, even my local town in the summer is filled with underage girls wearing those jean-skirt thingies which shows half of their bare ass, but hey, we can't have this: http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/9/91/Miss_Fortune_OriginalSkin.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150722103118 :D

The one thing girls actually really suffer for is voice comms, but it's mainly a console territory. However, you can't really do anything with a bunch of teenagers who are trying to win the e-peen contest. They WILL go nasty if they hear there's a girl in the game, and some of the girls (understandably) even like the attention.

Sallos
03-01-2016, 11:18 AM
There is literally a site, which evaluates every single female League of Legends champion skins whether it's sexist (=shows too much skin, big boobs, whatever bullshit) or not. Haha, some people take shit way too seriously. I mean, even my local town in the summer is filled with underage girls wearing those jean-skirt thingies which shows half of their bare ass, but hey, we can't have this: http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/9/91/Miss_Fortune_OriginalSkin.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150722103118 :D

The one thing girls actually really suffer for is voice comms, but it's mainly a console territory. However, you can't really do anything with a bunch of teenagers who are trying to win the e-peen contest. They WILL go nasty if they hear there's a girl in the game, and some of the girls (understandably) even like the attention.

I could be wrong but i think you can make your own LoL skins and sell them. Let them make "appropriate" female skins/models instead.
But then we'd be hearing how no one is buying the less appealing skins and that something should be done about it. With that being said, yes you can make kickass female characters without showing to much cleavage.

Volband
03-01-2016, 11:37 AM
I could be wrong but i think you can make your own LoL skins and sell them. Let them make "appropriate" female skins/models instead.
But then we'd be hearing how no one is buying the less appealing skins and that something should be done about it. With that being said, yes you can make kickass female characters without showing to much cleavage.
There are methods to use third party skins, but those are not official. I never really cared about those splash arts. I wouldn't want every single female character to be portrayed as a gracious goddess, so if the creators of the artworks want to slap a nice booty and titties onto them, go ahead. I don't even get how can anyone get offended by that.

But hey, this is how the latest female champ looks like: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vexxpvUBwc8/maxresdefault.jpg One of her quote is "How could I settle with only one man? They break too easily.", so now we have a strong, independent, curvy woman as well!

Sallos
03-01-2016, 12:03 PM
There are methods to use third party skins, but those are not official. I never really cared about those splash arts. I wouldn't want every single female character to be portrayed as a gracious goddess, so if the creators of the artworks want to slap a nice booty and titties onto them, go ahead. I don't even get how can anyone get offended by that.

But hey, this is how the latest female champ looks like: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vexxpvUBwc8/maxresdefault.jpg One of her quote is "How could I settle with only one man? They break too easily.", so now we have a strong, independent, curvy woman as well!

When i think of curvy i don't think of muscles...that one is more buffed than i am.
Even though third party skins are not official, there are some pretty cool ones, check this one out:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=572178011

Yes is from Dota, just realised that now.

Space Suicide
03-03-2016, 08:57 AM
Sarkeesian is a horrible flag carrier for feminism. I don't even want to get into addressing her "points," because it's ludicrously easy to tear them to pieces, but she does a disservice to anyone actually concerned with feminism by bolstering herself as a leading figure for a cause that she barely understands.

Sexism is a very big issue in video games (and every other form of popular culture that primarily sells itself to straight men), and it's only made worse by having clueless opportunists like Sarkeesian cash in on it.

But the stupid form of modern internet discourse has rendered anyone who is irritated by her bullshit some "reddit mens-rights-activist" sort... I hate our inability to call something what it is, especially when it's flagrantly stupid.

I've AlWAYS had an issue with her. What makes her even more of a nuisance is if you actually tried watching her videos and complaints. I forget what the topic was or the game (I tuned out her carrying on after a bit) but she was flat out clueless about the game she was talking about. Like she didn't even know shit, she hadn't even played it. I'll see if I can find it on YouTube. If I find it I'll post it.

KarenLeslie
03-03-2016, 09:47 AM
I've AlWAYS had an issue with her. What makes her even more of a nuisance is if you actually tried watching her videos and complaints. I forget what the topic was or the game (I tuned out her carrying on after a bit) but she was flat out clueless about the game she was talking about. Like she didn't even know shit, she hadn't even played it. I'll see if I can find it on YouTube. If I find it I'll post it.

My favorite example of her cluelessness is her complaining about a character wearing a revealing outfit on an E3 badge last year. The character was Rise Kujikawa...whose entire storyline in Persona4 is about coming to own her sexuality as a pop star. At first she hates feeling on display as a star and quits the entertainment industry, only to realize she misses singing and dancing and there is a part of her that likes wearing sexy outfits, because she knows that's not all she is. Her whole character is about making a choice to be sexy because she enjoys it, not because she's forced to.

So yeah, this "expert" at women's portrayal in videogames was obviously unfamiliar with one of the few characters whose entire storyline is about taking agency over her feminine sexuality. Nice job!

thelastdisciple
03-02-2020, 10:24 AM
Interesting points re: the disconnect between what female musicians are doing vs. what's deemed problematic in gaming surrounding the SAME subject matter.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FegvRZt89lA&feature=youtu.be

Wretchedest
03-02-2020, 12:58 PM
FF7 remake, big outdated tropes going on here lol