Daʿish/ISIS/ISIL

[elevenism]

So a third beheading has been reported today. I'm a pacifist and our previous two wars in the middle east were huge mistakes, but it's time to get these fuckers. I hope we can do it with covert ops and special forces. Apparently we have support from ten middle eastern states this time, including Iran, which ought to be helpful.whatever the case, it's time to shut their shit down.

[aggroculture]

You sound...a bit confused.
Also I find it a bit ironic that a truther such as yourself cannot see that these movements are a response to US and Western imperialism in the region over the course of the years. We created these enemies just like we created Bin Laden.

[elevenism]

You sound...a bit confused.
Also I find it a bit ironic that a truther such as yourself cannot see that these movements are a response to US and Western imperialism in the region over the course of the years. We created these enemies just like we created Bin Laden.

oh, so much to say here.
for one thing, it doesn't take being a truther to see that, yes, we most definitely created these enemies, as far back as when Israel was created.
We have interfered with affairs in the middle east time and time again. I am pro-palestine, and yes, i definitely think it's insane that we ARMED and TRAINED Bin Laden.

And i am generally a pacifist. Furthermore, i believe that 9/11 was used as a pretext for a war with Iraq....it doesn't take a truther to see that either.

ISIS/ISIL is our fault.

It's also crazy that we have played both sides of the internal Islamic conflict, backing both Shia and Sunni whenever it seems to best suit our interests.

There comes a time where diplomacy is not an effective tool, and there are people with whom diplomacy will NEVER work.

I see that we created this threat, absolutely. We laid waste to Iraq, fought on three sides of a civil war, and act surprised when the region becomes unstable.

But for the sake of stability in the middle east, and the world, i say that taking this group on is overdue.

After 9/11, i had hoped that we would strike Al Queda and the Taliban surgically...instead we bombed the shit out of two countries and killed countless innocent people. I pray that this isn't how we approach things now.

I am hoping that Obama's administration will go after this group the same way they went after Bin Laden (if they ever did...i'm a truther, after all ;) )

This group, for some reason, scares me in a way that no other terrorist organization has before.

edit: i just read the news, and it now appears that we have to either choose between Shiite Iran or Sunni Saudi Arabia as our major regional ally here.
Such a shame...i had hoped that working with Iran might produce an uneasy alliance, however fragile, that could contribute to future peace.

[Sutekh]

After 9/11, i had hoped that we would strike Al Queda and the Taliban surgically...instead we bombed the shit out of two countries and killed countless innocent people. I pray that this isn't how we approach things now.

what makes you think it will be any different

[icecream]

Half of ISIS seems to be Vice reporters

[elevenism]

what makes you think it will be any different


i don't. i HOPE it will be though.

i'm a card carrying democrat and would like to think that this administration's response will be more appropriate.
but the cynic in me firmly believes that all of our politicians are in the same gang and have the same ulterior motives.

It's POSSIBLE, however, that Obama will try to avoid Bush's mistakes. Remember that part of his campaign platform was getting us OUT of Iraq.

but notice i said that "i PRAY that this isn't how we approach things now."

[Sutekh]

Sure but being an advocate of intervention seems to show that you have a glimmer of hope it could work out OK? Or do you not think that at all and simply hope

I hate IS but... I hated Saddam, and hate what resulted from our invasion. I just can't remember when intervention worked and given the myriad forces at play (arms manufacturers, oil companies, private security, reconstruction firms) I'm beginning to suspect the hijacking of our foreign policy is a systemic problem large free mark orientated societies such as ours seem to possess. No matter how honourable your intentions, the various voices, lobbies and agendas pulling in different directions means that the good thing won't get done if anyone can make some money out of neglecting it

[elevenism]

Sutekh , i don't think the last invasion should have happened. i think it was fucking TERRIBLE. and i think that the rise of IS (who have been around since 99, right?) is due to a void that was left from how bad WE fucked up.

I feel like i'm talking to my wife here..she shares your ideas on this situation.

But i do have a glimmer of hope.

What we should do is run small, surgical covert ops and kill or imprison the leadership of this group.
They are a fucking disgrace to Islam and religion in general. I know that another extremist group will rise and take their place, but i feel that we have a duty to at least TRY to shut down IS.

And i hope that we don't do it with "shock and awe" this time. I can't stand it when the us and england bomb the shit out of third world countries, killing innocent people who don't even know why they are being attacked.

And just so you know, the last invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with Saadam, IMO.
The Bush administration bet on the ignorance of the american people...the fact that they would think that an invasion of Iraq would be retribution against "those folks who flew the planes into them there towers."
They won that bet.
We KNEW that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and that there were no Iraqis among the 9/11 skyjackers.
We invaded Iraq to gain more control over oil supplies and build permanent american bases in the region.
This might piss a lot of people off, but the us makes me sick sometimes. This country is about MONEY. PERIOD.
If we really were concerned about national security, why didn't we attack North Korea? Why not Iran? Those countries boldly and blatantly have nuclear weapons programs and are constantly threatening us verbally...it never seems to make the news though.
Iraq posed NO threat to us when we invaded. and later, people said "but al queda is in iraq." They weren't fucking there until we invaded and created such a massive instability.


But yes, i think that there's a ghost of a chance that we can improve things in the region. I think that Obama will be quite a bit more reserved going about this.

[fillow]

Not to sound like an ass, but can someone change the tread title or at least expand it? Every time I see it I think of the band.

[elevenism]

I will ask Leviathant to change it or you can
Change it to whatever you like

[botley]

I don't see why a new thread was necessary. We were talking about the conflict already in the '3rd Iraq War?' thread — although that title was misleading, too, since now we know the combatants are scattered across an entire subcontinent.

Canada has committed troops to the effort, as well; basically, our Prime Minister does things that affect national sovereignty and international issues without asking or consulting anyone anymore. I don't know why people accept 'advisory role' as an acceptable level for military intervention when it still ends up with the Iraqi army (who ALLOWED ISIS TO GET THIS BIG AND POWERFUL ON THEIR WATCH) doing the dirty work.

The conflict between Sunni & Shi'ite extremists is a civil war. We cannot expect to influence its outcome and somehow not drag it out into yet another quagmire. Read this fantastic article (http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2014/09/16/avoid-a-classic-blunder-stay-out-of-religious-wars-in-the-middle-east/) for some level-headed context.

[elevenism]

perhaps i'm not the best threadmaker, y'all. Leviathant , please change the name or merge it or whatever you think we should do with it.

[elevenism]

Well hot damn.

Anyone interested in this shit ought to watch the fantastic FRONTLINE from October 28, entitled "The Rise of ISIS."

If you are interested at all, watch this. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/rise-of-isis/) I was edge-of-my-seat rivited.

I thought i understood the situation, but i knew nothing. And as AWFUL as ISIS' methods are, i can now understand the appeal of the group to the average Iraqi Sunni.

So this thing all started in the form that we know it now after Pres Malaki accused a senior Sunni member of parliment of treason...he and his bodyguards.
He ordered his arrest and started rounding up Sunnis like Jews in Nazi Germany, arresting them for nothing and holding them for years without even charging them. This was right after the last us troops left iraq.

Malaki had promised to give the Sunni minority a place in the government, but instead he purged them.
It seemed to me that a tipping point was when Iraq's army, which seems to be little more than a Shiite millitia at this point, murdered HUNDREDS of peaceful Sunni protesters. I didn't know about all that.

Also, this group is SERIOUS about creating a state. Their leader gives sermons in Arab cities in broad daylight. They are organized. They are bold. Former members of Saddam's republican guard are their generals.

I learned SO much. I have a much, much deeper level of understanding now.

There are several things worrying me about this situation. For one thing, when a Caliphate is established, many fundamentalist Muslims feel obligated to recognize it. The documentary said that if even 1% of the devout worldwide support the Caliphate, it would mean tens of thousands of supporters.
Also, in that same vein, young, angsty people from literally every country in the world are joining ISIS.
And they are nothing like Al-Queda. They have a plan. They aren't just terrorists...they want to create a fucking state and are on their way to doing so.
They are bad-asses...the hardest of the hardcore. The people who started it were what was left of Al Queda in Iraq...the people we couldn't manage to kill in the last war. Then they freed thousands of prisoners, hardened criminals, who joined their ranks.

They are unlike any group that has come before them.
And yes, we, and Malaki and the Shia created them. They wanted rid of the Sunnis because they feared and mistrusted them, and ISIS is what they got in return...ironic.

Oh, and another thing...we agreed to those airstrikes PRECISELY at the moment that our oil interests were at risk.

ISIS does deserve its own thread. This is bigger than the possibility of a third iraq war, which i predicted over a year ago and no one believed me.

The more we sit by and do nothing...and don't get me wrong, i'm not sure WHAT we should do...the stronger and bigger this threat grows.

I think things will get very, very serious, and that these fuckers will spread into Jordan, into Lebanon, etc.

Europe will be at risk soon.

[Ryan]

This bastard who held a siege here in Sydney yesterday killed two hostages and the police killed
him.


http://m.bbc.com/news/world-australia-30485355


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_Haron_Monis

[Sutekh]

I'm willing to bet the attacks in Paris today will be in the name of ISIS.

Some serious soul searching going on in Europe at the moment no doubt... the dismal thing about this is whichever political approach prevails during the coming changes, people are going to die

I think the attacks since we began strikes against ISIS almost legitimise ISIS, they are seriously starting to become a state with international reach... the paper attacked today posted a cartoon of abu bakr al baghdadi/caliph omar (isis leader) last night - so, assuming today is retribution for that (or more generally the NATO member strikes on ISIS), is it now the case that we should endeavour not to provoke ISIS on the international stage - in other words, do we have to seek diplomacy with them? In other words have they forced their way to statehood etc etc

It is a strange thought that they may be here to stay - having a cold war dynamic again.

[scotty79]

They seem to think the attack was well planned and could have been from a previous picture (Mohammed as a teddy bear?) also reports that they know who the 3 suspects are, just a case of trying to find them now, pretty graphic video of a policeman being gunned down doing the rounds as well

[Jinsai]

is it now the case that we should endeavour not to provoke ISIS on the international stage - in other words, do we have to seek diplomacy with them? In other words have they forced their way to statehood etc etc

When we reach the point where ISIS is actually considered a true governing power, they will be nuked.

[Khrz]

I'm willing to bet the attacks in Paris today will be in the name of ISIS.

Nope, they claimed to be Al Qaeda in Yemen, according to witnesses. Which is consistent with our recent military operations in Africa, notably in Mali since this branch of Al Qaeda has called for a jihad against France after that. I doubt the motivation for the attack was all about cartoons to be honest. The operation is highly symbolic on a lot of levels.

[botley]

Is this a catch-all "terrorism by brown dudes" thread now?

[Khrz]

I was merely correcting Sutekh's assumption, ISIS has apparently nothing to do with today's events in France.

[botley]

I know — people come in here to start making associations before all the facts are in. ISIS probably had very little to do with the "seige" in Sydney either.

[Jinsai]

I know — people come in here to start making associations before all the facts are in. ISIS probably had very little to do with the "seige" in Sydney either.

Then consider the thread a general discussion of terrorism perpetrated by Islamic extremists. The way you're putting it almost seems as if to conflate Al Quada with ISIS is in some way racist, which I don't understand. Not all Islamic terrorists are "brown people."

Fuck it. Make the thread about general terrorism related to any form of religious extremism.

[Sutekh]

I know — people come in here to start making associations before all the facts are in. ISIS probably had very little to do with the "seige" in Sydney either.


Yeah, ISIS had nothing to do with the siege in Australia. I was just speculating as to what the motivation might be - I don't think that really warrants such a critical tone, as I disclaimed it as speculation, and as speculation goes it's not that wild.

I also have to protest the implication that I'm lumping all "brown dude" terrorism in the same category - France is currently helping the fight against ISIS & in speeches Abu Bakr has called for people who can't travel to fight in Syria or Iraq to do whatever they can wherever they can, and to carry out attacks swiftly after any strikes are made against ISIS - or any perceived slights against ISIS or Muslims in the media. The night before the shooting, Charlie Hebdo tweeted a caricature of Abu Bakr. France has a large community of Sunni muslims & many have left to fight already. I made the association with ISIS because there's a solid few things to suggest there might be a connection, not because I see terrorism as one monolithic racially characterised bloc


When we reach the point where ISIS is actually considered a true governing power, they will be nuked.

It's scary how far along they are. They've held onto some areas for so long now that they have ISIS branded police, tv stations, printing presses etc. Apparently amenities and infrastructure are breaking down though, there are terrible food shortages and people are starting to resent the well fed, well paid soldiers. Also there are lots of reports of ISIS police torturing minor offenders. Foreign fighters torturing civilians in a newly acquired territory sounds like the perfect way to breed an insurgency against yourself.

[botley]

Sutekh, I wasn't trying to be critical of your response — clearly you have a better-informed perspective on what's happening in the region than anyone else responding. It's just a shame that the thread inevitably drifts from discussion of a conflict (involving a specific group of well-organized, resources-rich, fundamentalist actors) over to acts of any group claiming allegience to Islam.

And yes, Jinsai the reason for that is this discussion is racially charged. If we're all coming in here to talk about any heinous act of religious extremist terrorism, how come nobody said peep about the Taliban attacking a school in Pakistan less than a month ago? Maybe it's because none of the 130 kids who died were white people.

[Jinsai]

And yes, @Jinsai (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=272) the reason for that is this discussion is racially charged. If we're all coming in here to talk about any heinous act of religious extremist terrorism, how come nobody said peep about the Taliban attacking a school in Pakistan less than a month ago? Maybe it's because none of the 130 kids who died were white people.


Perhaps not on this website, but then again, you have to admit the news section of this board is really a bit random when it comes to covering things. Everyone was covering the school massacre in Pakistan. Just because it didn't generate a conversation here doesn't mean it wasn't discussed. To imply that racism is a factor behind why we aren't discussing murder on this board is insane. After all, you were here. Why didn't you bring it up? Did it have something to do with racism?

[Deepvoid]

France is reporting that the suspects trained with Al-Qaeda.

Not ISIS related it appears.

[botley]

Christ no Jinsai, if I had felt like there was an insightful discussion to be had about the Peshawar attack, I'd have started a new thread. I'm rejecting your suggestion that I should consider this thread a general discussion about religious extremists who commit acts of terrorism. It's not. We don't have a single discussion thread, nor should we: it would be ridiculously broad, because there are many disparate terror groups and terrorists with different targets worldwide that fit the description, most of them irrelevant to each other.

The common denominator in all the attacks discussed in this thread is they are perceived to be linked to ISIS, whether that turns out to be true or not. I'd like to try and keep it that way. There are other recent attacks like the one in Paris this week that are important enough to warrant their own thread and shouldn't be lumped together, as that only promotes a false narrative of Us vs Them.

[Jinsai]

It's not a discussion where it's "us versus them." That's a strange distraction, similar to the insinuation that lumping together or mistaking terrorist groups with similar ideals for one another is in some way racist.

[elevenism]

And yes, @Jinsai (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=272) the reason for that is this discussion is racially charged. If we're all coming in here to talk about any heinous act of religious extremist terrorism, how come nobody said peep about the Taliban attacking a school in Pakistan less than a month ago? Maybe it's because none of the 130 kids who died were white people.

Wait a minute.
I started this thread and it was NEVER intended to be racially charged.
The reason no one mentioned the Pakistani Taliban attack here, i would assume, is because it was perpetrated by the PAKISTANI TALIBAN...right?
I started this thread because IS appears to be a new kind of group altogether...organized, diverse, HIGHLY militarized, seeking statehood, declaring a caliphate...and i've yet to see such a group in my lifetime.

The assumption that the paris attack may have been IS related WAS a fair one, and not just because it was perpetrated by islamic extremists, and ESPECIALLY not because it was perpetrated by brown people.

I don't think anyone in this thread is coming from a racist angle.

I'm damn sure not. And i certainly don't blame the religion either.

I'd imagine that far more atrocities have been committed in the name of christianity than islam.

[elevenism]

(wipes sweat off of forehead...)

i was afraid you were going to be mad at me, botley .

:)

[Deepvoid]

So ISIS set the Jordanian pilot on fire and released a video of it.

I hate conspiracy theories but the production "values" are so over the top on this one. From the dramatic music to the slow-motion of the guy igniting the fire, I can see why some people would claim it looks fake.

Aside from the pilot whose jet crashed, anyone wondering where they are taking all these hostages? Kenji Goto was a journalist who went to Syria to secure the release of the first hostage Yukawa. How did the latter get captured?
Why are people going to Syria in the first place. I hear Cancun is a lot more fun during this time of the year.

[Khrz]

I hate conspiracy theories but the production "values" are so over the top on this one. From the dramatic music to the slow-motion of the guy igniting the fire, I can see why some people would claim it looks fake.

Well either these people are criticizing the aesthetics of the video, in which case WTF, either they are stating their opinion on the actual reality of what's depicted on the video.
In the latter case, what the hell are they comparing this to ? The vast majority of people have no idea how a simple stabbing actually looks like, where is their sudden expertise on immolation coming from ?
Like the cop executed in Paris where everyone was complaining there wasn't any blood after his headshot, or the immense amount of armchair architects/artificers after 9/11...

God, people are so full of it...

[Dra508]

It's amazing the human brain works. I read recently that conservative minds like simple argument and nothing proved that to me more today when I saw a Facebook "friend" like a post from Hannity saying that Jordan knows how to respond to ISIS better than the U.S. It seemed to me that folks would only be happy if the U.S. Stepped out and just executed someone from Gitmo. Short of that, Obama hates the U.S. Seriously, there are plenty of presidents I've not cared for, but I've never thought any of them didn't love their country. It's pretty ridiculous.

Oh yeah, and this terror is only going to open the door for another Assad like ruler. Yes, one that will be installed by the U.S. With the support of Jordan and the Saudis.

[Sutekh]

Sounds about right! It's interesting because with Iran's cooperation (and they've offered it), they could probably ruin ISIS in a few weeks, but that would be throwing a bone to Saudi's regional rival

[DF118]

Fox News is a cunt. (http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/feb/04/fox-news-shows-isis-video-jordan-pilot)

[Sutekh]

there was an interview with his widow in the independent today, will they be posting anything from that I wonder

probably not as it would help humanise a brown woman in a headscarf and help people understand the multi dimensional reality of the situation

[Pillfred]

Fox News is a cunt. (http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/feb/04/fox-news-shows-isis-video-jordan-pilot)

“They’re a terror organisation,” he said. “They seek to strike terror in the hearts and minds of people globally, and by perpetuating these videos and putting them out there into the internet, it certainly expands the audience and potential effects.”

Im still a bit tired so that may be part of it but i had to reread this bit as at first glance i thought the guy was talking about Fox News not Isis. They really are becoming just a bunch of fucking trolls (Fox News).

[Dra508]

ISIS apparently says that Jordan's retaliatory bombing killed an American hostage. Just terrible. However, considering it is believed that the Jordanian pilot was killed weeks ago, I wouldn't be surprised if this American woman was killed weeks ago too. This shit is scary,. I feel terrible for the Syrian people.

[Leviathant]

Propaganda is at an all-time high right now, and it's astonishing how quickly the American press regurgitates it, unfiltered. That an American hostage was killed by Jordanian bombs is as credible as the news that King Abdullah himself would be piloting the bombers in these raids.

[Dra508]

I blame Twitter.

[DigitalChaos]

ISIS has claimed responsibility for their first attack in the US. Two gunmen opened fire outside a "muhammed cartoon contest" in Texas.

Like the France attacks, the attackers were armed with semi-automatic rifles, body armor, and extra ammunition stored in their cars. Unlike France, a police officer drew his service pistol and gunned down the assailants within seconds of the attack. The only casualty was a school security guard, who sustained slight bullet wounds to his leg in the initial attack.

http://thelibertarianrepublic.com/isis-claims-responsibility-for-attack-in-texas/ (not the best source, but it has a collection of good sources in it... some humorous )

[elevenism]

i spent my teen years in garland. it's PRETTY much dallas...if you've ever lived in a massive city, you know how there are those suburbs where you cross the street and you are in a different town? or where half of the strip mall is in one town and half in the other? it's like that. there are areas where you aren't sure whether or not you are in dallas, garland, mesquite, richardson, plano...it's all the same fucking thing. i used to walk from mesquite to catch a bus in garland and ride through dallas to my job in richardson and i had only traveled about 12 miles.

as reprehensible as it was for these attackers to...ahem...try to attack, JESUS CHRIST i'm ashamed of my former city hosting something like this at the fucking city civic center in the town square or whatever.

Would they host a contest for people drawing cartoons of the virgin mary fucking?

this thing was put together by an anti-islam advocate, from what i've read. hate groups shouldn't be sanctioned by fucking cities, ESPECIALLY a city as diverse as garland, which is more or less part of dallas, and is home to people of all races and creeds.

sigh.

ALSO, how in the fuck is this an ISIS attack?

Of COURSE they want to claim responsibility but i don't believe it. i think it's just misguided young kids getting into whatever's bad that they can believe in that makes them different and hard core.

[Dra508]

as reprehensible as it was for these attackers to...ahem...try to attack, JESUS CHRIST i'm ashamed of my former city hosting something like this at the fucking city civic center in the town square or whatever.

Would they host a contest for people drawing cartoons of the virgin mary fucking?



I'm pretty sure the ACLU says that group has every right to spout their noise. No imminent threat. I think local Muslims chose to ignore them. If those dunderheads hadn't shown up, their cartoon contest would have been a non-event.

Yeah Garland, I've been to the Babe's Chicken there. Nom nom nom.

[elevenism]

@Dra508 (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=101) you're in the metroplex, i fucking KNEW it. i grew up about 2 miles from that selfsame dinner house.

And yes, of course they have the RIGHT.
But i don't think that the city should provide a forum for hate speech.
They should have had it in Deep Ellum or something.

by the way, that babes was the original....the one on beltline?
one of my dear friends growing up was one of the og waitresses there, and the poor dear died in a car crash on her way to college. she crashed into a horse. only in texas.

[DigitalChaos]

But i don't think that the city should provide a forum for hate speech.


It's not like the city was endorsing it. They provided public space for a perfectly legal activity. What you are saying is like "people shouldn't be able to hold signs in public parks if it says something I dislike... they should take it to private property"


also...


i think it's just misguided young kids getting into whatever's bad that they can believe in that makes them different and hard core.

pretty much describes how most of ISIS gets its members. Same goes for just about any extremist group.

[elevenism]

@DigitalChaos (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=598) .... i already know you are probably gonna stand firm on this one, but seriously...

would they allow a contest for depictions of people fucking the virgin mary?
seriously.

also,

i what i meant about the kids not being IS, i guess what i mean is that they have probably never had any contact with legit IS members, ever.

bagdahdi wasn't in syria thinking, "damn, lets send the kids from arizona to shoot up that cartoon contest in texas. fuck that shit! hit 'em up, let's send them in"

[DigitalChaos]

I can't imagine what legal ground they could stand on to block a drawing contest that defiles christian imagery. Try it! :) Sure, you'd probably get a lot of protesters outside.


we will have to see if an investigation finds any connections to ISIS. They sounded pretty geared up for the shooting.

[elevenism]

i'm not talking about legal ground though DigitalChaos .

my point is that if i DID produce anti christian imagery, the garland convention center would certainly not give me a forum to display it.

but if it's anti muslim, well fuck yeah.

and that is kind of fucked off.

[DigitalChaos]

hrmm, sounds like they are still investigating, but one of the guys pledged allegiance to ISIS. He was under FBI investigation and on a no-fly list that stopped him from flying to Syria to fight with ISIS. It also looks like he had some communications/contacts with various ISIS characters.

[elevenism]

hrmm, sounds like they are still investigating, but one of the guys pledged allegiance to ISIS. He was under FBI investigation and on a no-fly list that stopped him from flying to Syria to fight with ISIS. It also looks like he had some communications/contacts with various ISIS characters.
NO shit.

i'm surprised man. that is a little disturbing.

[DigitalChaos]

NO shit.

i'm surprised man. that is a little disturbing.

Yeah. I mean, it sounds like they don't believe it was ORDERED by ISIS so far, but it's still kind of shocking.

[Dra508]

i'm not talking about legal ground though DigitalChaos .

my point is that if i DID produce anti christian imagery, the garland convention center would certainly not give me a forum to display it.

but if it's anti muslim, well fuck yeah.

and that is kind of fucked off.

I suspect, in your imaginary scenario, the city would have denied the rental in some legal way like anticipated fuckfest outside center would have been disruptive to normal business. The whole point of having that cartoon contest there was to push hate under the guise of our free speech amendment IMO. It's just like those Westboro Church freaks protesting outside funerals.

[elevenism]

I suspect, in your imaginary scenario, the city would have denied the rental in some legal way like anticipated fuckfest outside center would have been disruptive to normal business. The whole point of having that cartoon contest there was to push hate under the guise of our free speech amendment IMO. It's just like those Westboro Church freaks protesting outside funerals.

i just think....KNOW...that they wouldn't allow it period, you know? i don't even think they would have to use the legal system

[Sarah K]

So, that NYC video that they came out with was mad creepy!

I'm going to a concert at Barclays tonight, and got an email about heightened security inside and outside of the building. To be sure to arrive early, etc, etc, etc... There are millions of things that I'm more scared of than these fuckers. But that video is just SOO EERIE.

[allegro]

G pointed me to this article yesterday (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/isis-defector-explained-key-reason-180356055.html):


An ISIS defector explained a key reason people continue joining the group

Despite ISIS's claims of ruling over a Islamic "caliphate" in line with Sharia law, a large number of the group's fighters joined for reasons having little to do with religion, according to a defector from the group that The Daily Beast's Michael Weiss interviewed in Istanbul, Turkey.

Instead, people are joining the organization because they are desperate for money and are struggling to find a way to survive in Syria, where four years of civil war have decimated the economy.

The ISIS defector, who goes by the pseudonym Abu Khaled, spoke with Weiss about the group's internal dynamics, and what it was like to live under ISIS's rule. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/15/confessions-of-an-isis-spy.html)

According to Abu Khaled, a large number of people are joining ISIS because they need money. After joining the militants, people are paid in US dollars instead of Syrian liras. Abu Khaled said that ISIS also runs its own currency exchanges.

ISIS members receive additional incentives to fight for the group. “I rented a house, which was paid for by ISIS,” Abu Khaled, who worked for ISIS's internal-security forces and "provided training for foreign operatives," told Weiss. “It cost $50 per month. They paid for the house, the electricity. Plus, I was married, so I got an additional $50 per month for my wife. If you have kids, you get $35 for each. If you have parents, they pay $50 for each parent. This is a welfare state.”

And those financial benefits are not just limited to the organization's fighters. According to Abu Khaled, any member of ISIS, ranging from construction workers to doctors, receives similar compensation. In war-torn Syria, these salaries are a powerful lure for people who might not otherwise be able to support their families — or for people just hoping to get rich.

“I knew a mason who worked construction. He used to get 1,000 lira per day. That’s nothing," Abu Khaled told Weiss. "Now he’s joined ISIS and gets 35,000 lira—$100 for himself, $50 for his wife, $35 for his kids. He makes $600 to $700 per month. He gave up masonry. He’s just a fighter now, but he joined for the income.”

Other Syrians who have fled from ISIS's rule have corroborated Abu Khaled's reports, confirming that one of the only ways to accumulate wealth and status under ISIS's rule is by joining the organization. Yassin al-Jassem, a Syrian refugee from near ISIS's de facto capital of Raqqa, Syria, shared his experience with The Washington Post.

"There is no work, so you have to join them in order to live," al-Jassem told the Post. "So many local people have joined them. They were pushed into Daesh by hunger."

According to Newsweek, there is a widening gap in living standards for those under ISIS rule. Members of the organization have access to food, free medical care, and desirable housing. In contrast, people who aren't ISIS members suffer under a barely functioning economy with rapidly increasing prices.

ISIS can afford to pay people seeking to join its ranks through four main sources of income: oil, the sale of looted antiquities, taxation, and kidnapping ransoms.

The militant group either controls or has an operational presence around a number of oil wells in Iraq and in the majority of oil-producing areas in Syria. This allows the group to earn a steady income from oil production and smuggling that helps it to continue its daily operations.

The New York Times estimates that ISIS can make upward of $40 million a month through oil-related activities. In a bid to cut the group's income, the US conducted its first airstrikes against ISIS oil trucks on November 16.

Residents watch militant Islamist fighters taking part in a military parade along the streets of Syria's northern Raqqa province on June 30, 2014.

ISIS's main source of income is significantly more difficult for the US and other coalition partners to target by air. According to Foreign Policy, ISIS makes the majority of its money through extortion and taxation of people living under the group's rule.

ISIS taxes nearly every possible economic activity, with the revenue ultimately covering the expenses of waging continuous war along multiple fronts. Foreign Policy notes that taxes are put in place for militants who loot archaeological sites. Non-Muslims must pay religious taxes, and all ISIS subjects pay a base welfare and salary tax in support of the fighters. All vehicles passing through ISIS territory — which may carry the only food available to those living under ISIS control — must pay taxes often totaling hundreds of dollars.

This ad hoc war economy means that ISIS has little money to spend on improving the lives of those who are forced to live under its rule. But as Abu Khaled's account confirms, it still finds the money for conducting military operations and incentivizing militants to join the group.

That money and the other benefits that ISIS fighters receive means that Syrians join ISIS out of desperation — and not necessarily out of religious or ideological conviction.

[DigitalChaos]

^ "I need money" doesn't really connect with the people who are going on suicide missions. I'm certain that there are PLENTY who are working the non-suicide missions who fit in the "i need money" camp though. Also not mentioned: blowback.

[allegro]

^ "I need money" doesn't really connect with the people who are going on suicide missions. I'm certain that there are PLENTY who are working the non-suicide missions who fit in the "i need money" camp though. Also not mentioned: blowback.

Maybe the families of the suicide mission people get some kind of big benefit?

edit: Wait, that same guy they interviewed for the above article answered that question (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/16/how-isis-picks-its-suicide-bombers.html).

[elevenism]

Jesus, god, have you guys seen the new Frontline about Isis in Afghanistan?

They are holding school with little (and i mean LITTLE) kids teaching them how to work machine guns and hand grenades and shit.
It's truly, seriously terrorist pre-school.
A journalist with balls of solid rock went and interviewed these fucking maniacs.

[thevoid99]

Jesus, god, have you guys seen the new Frontline about Isis in Afghanistan?

They are holding school with little (and i mean LITTLE) kids teaching them how to work machine guns and hand grenades and shit.
It's truly, seriously terrorist pre-school.
A journalist with balls of solid rock went and interviewed these fucking maniacs.


That is fucked up. I read about their history and I can't believe what these assholes believe in and such. They're fucked in the head.

[elevenism]

That is fucked up. I read about their history and I can't believe what these assholes believe in and such. They're fucked in the head.
dude you should watch frontline's "the rise of isis."

i THINK i linked it here before, but i think they might have taken it offline for now because they are gonna re-air it soon as new, in light of recent events

edit: yeah it's down for now.
it was originally aired on 10-28-14 and it made my fucking head spin.

I BET they will air it on PBS this weekend at some point.
I will link to it here asap because i think anyone interested in the subject should watch it.
As i said before in this thread, i don't think we've ever seen a group like this. They are NOT fucking around.

This isn't like al queda. I recently heard that IS was sitting on an estimated 2 BILLION dollars,
And they pay members $700 a month, which is probably REALLY good money in a third world country.

[allegro]

dude you should watch frontline's "the rise of isis."

i THINK i linked it here before, but i think they might have taken it offline for now because they are gonna re-air it soon as new, in light of recent events

edit: yeah it's down for now.
it was originally aired on 10-28-14 and it made my fucking head spin.

I BET they will air it on PBS this weekend at some point.
I will link to it here asap because i think anyone interested in the subject should watch it.
As i said before in this thread, i don't think we've ever seen a group like this. They are NOT fucking around.

This isn't like al queda. I recently heard that IS was sitting on an estimated 2 BILLION dollars,
And they pay members $700 a month, which is probably REALLY good money in a third world country.

The transcript is here (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/iraq-war-on-terror/rise-of-isis/transcript-70/). But, it's a year old and a lot has happened since then.

The payment thing was linked in the interviews on the prior page (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/3461-Da%CA%BFish-ISIS-ISIL?p=277216#post277216) with an escaped head of IS security (which comes from this (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/15/confessions-of-an-isis-spy.html)), which is much more recent information and is a four-part series.

[elevenism]

The transcript is here (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/iraq-war-on-terror/rise-of-isis/transcript-70/). But, it's a year old and a lot has happened since then.

The payment thing was linked in the interviews on the prior page (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/3461-Da%CA%BFish-ISIS-ISIL?p=277216#post277216) with an escaped head of IS security (they're from this (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/11/15/confessions-of-an-isis-spy.html)), which is much more recent information.
i know it's old but they are still gonna run it again, and have taken it down, ostensibly until they do so.
And it does have a SHITLOAD of info. I think it's definitely worth watching if you haven't seen it, to learn how they came to be and whatnot


So as far as the 2 billion...
i wonder how much of that money comes from black market oil sales, how much came from the Saudis, and how much came from US when we thought we were arming "moderate rebels?"

[allegro]

i know it's old but they are still gonna run it again, and have taken it down, ostensibly until they do so.
And it does have a SHITLOAD of info. I think it's definitely worth watching if you haven't seen it, to learn how they came to be and whatnot
I'm not sure that people in other countries can watch PBS, they may have to wait until it streams again online (or they can just read the transcript that I just posted).

[allegro]

This suicide bomber chick in France (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3325180/Two-fingers-world-Pictured-Europe-s-female-suicide-bomber-booze-loving-extrovert-nicknamed-Cowgirl-love-big-hats.html), I wonder if she was even a CHOSEN suicide bomber or if she grabbed a vest from the apartment and made herself one.

This explains that ISIL is a cult (http://www.iss.europa.eu/publications/detail/article/after-paris-why-isil-is-also-a-cult/).


The terrorist atrocities in Paris have once again demonstrated the zeal and resolve of the jihadists fighting for the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL). The scale of the violence shows the extent to which the group brainwashes its members: to the point where mass murder and self-annihilation become not only logical, but desirable.

In this sense, ISIL is not only a terrorist organisation with ambitions to become a state, but also an exclusive, authoritarian, religious cult. It is its cultish belief system which allows the group to recruit and retain members from across the globe, excel on the battlefield and inspire franchises to form elsewhere. Consequently, if ISIL is to be tackled, it needs to be fought as a cult, too.

[elevenism]

I'm not sure that people in other countries can watch PBS, they may have to wait until it streams again online (or they can just read the transcript that I just posted).
Right on.
They do post episodes on youtube though.
I think they took it down because it's about to be their "newest" episode (based on the "next time on frontline" bit from this week's episode.)
I'm assuming it will be on soon in the interest of being contemporary, hopefully with some new information.

Edit: where do the blonde Caucasian kids in the new frontline come from?
Are they ethnic russians? or children of immigrants?
to clarify-in Afghanistan i mean.

[allegro]

So as far as the 2 billion...
i wonder how much of that money comes from black market oil sales, how much came from the Saudis, and how much came from US when we thought we were arming "moderate rebels?"
That article that was linked breaks a lot of it down, it's ALL from them taking over the oil in Syria and Iraq and looting all of its resources, which was the smartest thing they did. It's why Russia is currently bombing ISIS' oil fields; Russia is trying to hit ISIS financially, because crippling them financially is probably a very good strategic move.

SEE THIS (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-19/most-important-question-about-isis-nobody-asking)

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2014/09/20140911_isis.png

[allegro]

Yeah, and we were either stupid or worse:


Here is where it gets interesting: Bloomberg cites Pentagon officials who acknowledge "that for more than a year they avoided striking tanker trucks to limit civilian casualties. None of these guys are ISIS. We don’t feel right vaporizing them, so we have been watching ISIS oil flowing around for a year,” says Knights. That changed on Nov. 16, when four U.S. attack planes and two gunships destroyed 116 oil trucks.

So any qualms about vaporizing "innocent civilians" promptly disappeared when the Pentagon realized that its 1+ year long campaign had been an epic debacle, that a suddenly surging ISIS was stronger as ever, and most importantly, that its critical revenue lifelines had been largely untouched for years. Perhaps they weren't innocent civilians after all.

It is still unknown if this recent crackdown on "dumping oil", or crude which dramatically lowers the price of oil in global markets - it certainly is an odd coincidence that the price of Brent and WTI began its tumble last fall, just when the Islamic State made its dramatic appearance on the world scene - will have an effect and cut off the primary source of funds to ISIS.

But what we have been wondering for months and what we hope some enterprising journalist will soon answer, is just who are the commodity trading firms that have been so generously buying millions of smuggled oil barrels procured by the Islamic State at massive discounts to market, and then reselling them to other interested parties.

In other words, who are the middlemen.

What we do know is who they may be: they are the same names that were quite prominent in the market in September when Glencore had its first, and certainly not last, near death experience: the Glencores, the Vitols, the Trafiguras, the Nobels, the Mercurias of the world.

To be sure, funding terrorist states is not something that some of the most prominent names in the list above have shied away from in the past.

Which one (or ones) are the guilty parties - those who have openly breached terrorism funding laws - we don't know: it may be one, or more of the above, or someone totally different.

At this point, however, three things are certain: whoever the commodity trading house may be that is paying ISIS-affiliated "innocent civilians" hundreds of millions of dollars for their products, they are perfect aware just who the source of this deeply discounted crude is. Crude so deeply discounted, in fact, it results in massive profits for the enterprising middleman who are engaging in openly criminal transactions.

The second certainty: whoever said middleman is, it is very well known to US intelligence services such as the NSA and CIA, and thus to the Pentagon, and thus, the US government.

The third certainty is that while the US, and Russia, and now France, are all very theatrically bombing something in the Syrian desert (nobody really knows what), the funding of ISIS continues unabated as someone keeps buying ISIS oil.

We wonder how long until someone finally asks the all important question regarding the Islamic State: who is the commodity trader breaching every known law of funding terrorism when buying ISIS crude, almost certainly with the tacit approval by various "western alliance" governments, and why is it that these governments have allowed said middleman to continue funding ISIS for as long as it has?

[elevenism]

allegro i was just wondering about that, who was doing the buying of all that oil.

[allegro]

Edit: where do the blonde Caucasian kids in the new frontline come from?
Are they ethnic russians? or children of immigrants?
to clarify-in Afghanistan i mean. It's a CULT. Think Charles Manson holding a Q'aran. Or like Scientology with guns. A cult attracts a certain type of personality or situation, then they get brainwashed. They can come from anywhere; they are being recruited worldwide. See this PDF (http://www.iss.europa.eu/uploads/media/Alert_49_ISIL.pdf).

[aggroculture]

Good article about the name: http://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/decoding-daesh-why-is-the-new-name-for-isis-so-hard-to-understand/

[Exocet]

where do the blonde Caucasian kids in the new frontline come from?
Are they ethnic russians? or children of immigrants?
to clarify-in Afghanistan i mean.

They are mostly from Chechnya or Dagestan, or Kabardino Balkaria , white Muslim republics in Southern Russia.....8000 people have left Russia to join Isis.
Way way more than other European country..the next biggest is France with 1.750 leaving.....Russia is now worried about them returning.
the amount of massive attacks that country has had though.. i spent a couple of my childhood years in Russia ..its always had an insane threat...The attacks were devastating, Planes being bombed out of the sky, Beslan school crisis ( in my view the worst attack of the 00's after 9/11) , Theatre seiges, Subway bombings, train bombings, people blowing themselves up at rock festivals, or public areas....a LOT of these attacks were done by women....i think the country has come to expect it.

If anyone knows how to cope with terrorism...its that country.
This has all contributed to Vladimir Putin being the type of man he is...he goes almost medievil on terrorists asses..sometimes the terrorists families get their homes burnt down.....
im certain Russia will suffer more blowback due to its attacks on Isis....however Russia is vital in defeating Isis.

[elevenism]

They are mostly from Chechnya or Dagestan, or Kabardino Balkaria , white Muslim republics in Southern Russia.....8000 people have left Russia to join Isis.
Way way more than other European country..the next biggest is France with 1.750 leaving.....Russia is now worried about them returning.
the amount of massive attacks that country has had though.. i spent a couple of my childhood years in Russia ..its always had an insane threat...The attacks were devastating, Planes being bombed out of the sky, Beslan school crisis ( in my view the worst attack of the 00's after 9/11) , Theatre seiges, Subway bombings, train bombings, people blowing themselves up at rock festivals, or public areas....a LOT of these attacks were done by women....i think the country has come to expect it.

If anyone knows how to cope with terrorism...its that country.
This has all contributed to Vladimir Putin being the type of man he is...he goes almost medievil on terrorists asses..sometimes the terrorists families get their homes burnt down.....
im certain Russia will suffer more blowback due to its attacks on Isis....however Russia is vital in defeating Isis.
the kids i was to whom i was referring were ages 4-10.
So do parents bring their kids with them when the join Isis?

[Khrz]

Depends on how and where they were enrolled.
Think christian church methods gone military outfit, local pillars of the community having strong and borderline speeches, weeding out those who seem too meek and timid, and sharing their most extremist views with those who are ready to hear them. A little nudge here, a gentle push there, the promise of a glorious, righteous and meaningful destiny, fighting the corrupt and the decadent for a brighter world...
When you've spent your whole life being persecuted, subject to daily racism, when your kind is attacked everywhere and your future seems miserable, it's not that hard. The younger you are, the easier it gets.

[allegro]

the kids i was to whom i was referring were ages 4-10.
So do parents bring their kids with them when the join Isis?
According to THIS (http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/07/16/new-isis-recruitment-video-features-white-children-from-bosnia/), the propaganda videos feature blonde children from Bosnia.

See also this (http://m.jpost.com/Middle-East/Watch-Bosnian-children-attend-ISIS-summer-camp-in-Syria-375467#article=0N0IyMkM0MzM3NjI2RTM0Qjg4NkQxM0Y4MU VEMEM2Mjc=).

See also this (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/25/isis-targets-vulnerable-bosnia-for-recruitment-and-attack).

As the link I posted earlier indicated, this is a religious cult and people bring their kids; really not much different than, say, Jim Jones and the People's Temple (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones), but with guns.

[elevenism]

According to THIS (http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/07/16/new-isis-recruitment-video-features-white-children-from-bosnia/), the propaganda videos feature blonde children from Bosnia.

See also this (http://m.jpost.com/Middle-East/Watch-Bosnian-children-attend-ISIS-summer-camp-in-Syria-375467#article=0N0IyMkM0MzM3NjI2RTM0Qjg4NkQxM0Y4MU VEMEM2Mjc=).

See also this (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/25/isis-targets-vulnerable-bosnia-for-recruitment-and-attack).

As the link I posted earlier indicated, this is a religious cult and people bring their kids; really not much different than, say, Jim Jones and the People's Temple (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones), but with guns.
Jesus that's insane.
I guess i'm having a hard time learning to see it in those terms.

So what we have is a psuedo religious death cult of unprecedented size and scope, committed to damn near indiscriminate murder, sitting on a couple billion dollars and encompassing the globe, garnering VERY disturbing amounts of sympathy for their cause.:eek:

it's worse than i thought.

[elevenism]

Sorry for double posts!

Here is the new film that shows the "pre-school of terror" i was talking about.
it seems like any other instruction of young children, from a gifted, empathetic teacher who has a knack for connecting with children, speaking softly and whispering the answers to the kids when the struggle.
But the "curriculum" is UTTERLY INSANE.

"What do we call this?," the teacher says? "Machine gun!" the kids answer back.
"Who do we kill with it?" "Infidels! That's right kids, good job!"
It's not like a junior terror training camp. I swear to god it;s more like an actual pre-school.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwHtK1KKyP4

[allegro]

That's not pre-school, those are older kids. I don't think that is all that disturbing, it's their reality. Kids in this country have guns at that age, too. We think it's stupid, but it's reality.

That's what they believe, like Hitler Youth or whatever. Or, again, like Scientology with guns. (Scientology has Sea Org)

SEE THIS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_use_of_children#History)

[elevenism]

That's not pre-school, those are older kids. I don't think that is all that disturbing, it's their reality. Kids in this country have guns at that age, too. We think it's stupid, but it's reality.

That's what they believe, like Hitler Youth or whatever. Or, again, like Scientology with guns. (Scientology has Sea Org)

SEE THIS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_use_of_children#History)
Shiiiiiiiiit @allegro (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=76) , it still disturbs ME ;)
but yeah you have a point.
SOME of those kids can't be any older than 5 or 6 though

here's another frontline with kids and ak47's.
It's about a rubber plantation in Liberia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTJluS0_UUE

Frontline (especially the Propublica ones) is most def our favorite show (me and sheap.)
sorry for drift.

[allegro]

Here's Hitler Youth at rifle practice:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1978-013-27,_Hitlerjugend,_vormilit%C3%A4rische_Ausbildung. jpg

See also THIS (http://www.realityrag.net/child-soldiers-a-most-overlooked-horror/). It's easy for us to sit in our nice cushy environments and not know anything about world reality.

http://i0.wp.com/www.realityrag.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/child_soldiers.jpg?resize=630%2C354

Here, check this out (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/child-suicide-bombers-lara-logan-60-minutes/).

[DigitalChaos]

The only difference between ISIS and a typical gang is the extreme religious ideology that they use. There is very little difference in how they work, how people join, and all the other mechanisms. Religious ideology is a strong thing for humans. Imagine if you added that to one of the street gangs in the US. Things would quickly get out of hand.

[DigitalChaos]

Here's Hitler Youth at rifle practice:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1978-013-27,_Hitlerjugend,_vormilit%C3%A4rische_Ausbildung. jpg

See also THIS (http://www.realityrag.net/child-soldiers-a-most-overlooked-horror/). It's easy for us to sit in our nice cushy environments and not know anything about world reality.

http://i0.wp.com/www.realityrag.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/child_soldiers.jpg?resize=630%2C354

Here, check this out (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/child-suicide-bombers-lara-logan-60-minutes/).

Yup! If something is part of your everyday life, it's going to be part of your kids. There are plenty of ways people raise their kids that will shock the typical US citizen. Some of the worst tends to happen in poverty.

[allegro]

On the impossibility of fighting ISIS (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/on-the-impossibility-of-fighting-isis/385530/?utm_source=SFTwitter).

[Jinsai]

The only difference between ISIS and a typical gang is the extreme religious ideology that they use. There is very little difference in how they work, how people join, and all the other mechanisms. Religious ideology is a strong thing for humans. Imagine if you added that to one of the street gangs in the US. Things would quickly get out of hand.

The other obvious difference is the fact that they seem to have a ridiculous amounts of money.

[allegro]

The other obvious difference is the fact that they seem to have a ridiculous amounts of money.
Gangs have lots of money from selling drugs, guns, etc. But not as much money as ISIS (oil).

And I thought Scientology was the cult with all the money (http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/04/church-of-scientology-book-value-revealed-tax-documents/), HA!

[elevenism]

here, check this out (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/child-suicide-bombers-lara-logan-60-minutes/).

jesus h christ.

[elevenism]

ok here's this frontline episode.
they took it down and then finally re-aired it.
and all they added was a little intro.

but anyone interested in ISIS and really knowing what's going on should check it out.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/rise-of-isis/