Europe lurches to the Right

[Sutekh]

Pretty scary results in the EU elections - Neo Nazi golden dawn gets its first MPs, Front Nationale continues to grow in France, and UKIP totally blitz the MEP elections in the UK (although Labour still on course to win the general election at home).

Islamophobia is steadily on the rise, and while the street group EDL has pretty much fizzled out, bombings, shootings and assaults are on the rise in Greece, there was a shooting in a Jewish museum in Belgium last week (afaik the shooter hasn't been caught), and while the current situation in ukraine is presented as an US-EU/Russia powerplay, it is also interesting to note the forces at play on the ground - groups of far right activists (with US/EU backing) have been beating and burning ethnic russians to death (whilst western media lays largely silent - google odessa massacre 2014). This is disturbing enough but more disturbing is the idea that pockets of such people seem to still exist in europe

All part of a cycle or are we heading into fratricidal nationalistic insanity once again?

[elevenism]

i didn't "like" your post because i think it's a good thing. Its fucking terrifying.

You can bet when Obama leaves office, we'll get some godawful ultra right wing nut job here. Just the swing of the pendulum.

And as far as Islamaphobia, when the fuck are people going to realize that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are PRETTY MUCH THE SAME FUCKING RELIGION?

[Sutekh]

Sadly, this train rolls on... I remember Baroness Warsi saying a while back that Islamophobia had passed the dinner party test... now it's more like every single comment you see on a news story

Ever get the feeling that in 30 years time you'll be one of the people with a clear conscience?

[WorzelG]

The left wing choices need to be better. Sometimes I feel like its a choice between some wolf in sheeps clothing Blair type or people who want the country to genuinely become communist. At the moment I will pretty much be voting Lib Dem again despite the coalition, because it will take me a while to forgive labour for Blair - he was totally evil

[Sutekh]

I vote green and independent now, I'm just sick of it all

I think choosing ed over his brother shows that Labour are willing to make sacrifices in order to make a break with the blair/brown era. But yes I won't be voting for them again either

[Sutekh]

big grooming scandal in Bristol going down, lots of somali men being sentenced for preying on homeless and vulnerable teenage girls in bristol

I don't seem to remember any outcry over the homeless teenagers in bristol, or the vulnerable ones the state can only afford to check on once every five months

That's presumably ok. But if they get raped by a muslim then suddenly everyone gives a shit

this country

[Khrz]

And as far as Islamaphobia, when the fuck are people going to realize that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are PRETTY MUCH THE SAME FUCKING RELIGION?

Well Islam has the wrong face... If they can't make the effort to look a little less foreign, they're really begging for it...
That's what it comes down to around here -France- anyway. We managed to somewhat lock down the anti-arab sentiment during the 80ies, stabilizing it, but since the mid-90ies it came back under the guise of religion. Which, coming from a proudly secular country, is seriously fucking precious. Of course, now every religious movement is trying to preemptively defend itself by attacking everything in sight, and that secular, church-out-of-the-state statu quo is crumbling down. Suddenly we're a traditionally christian nation, out of fucking nowhere. We spent centuries trying to keep the churches in their place, but all it took was a bit of creative racism. And the lower classes ripping each other over who the good guys are, because that always ends well.

[Jinsai]

Islamophobia

goddamnit, I'm sorry, but this whole notion is utter horseshit. There are some lunatics who think that European countries (or the USA) are going to actually adopt Sharia law and become Muslim theocracies (yes, there's some really crazy people out there), but otherwise, this is a buzzword created to quell criticism of Islam in any of its applications, and it just sucks. The real irony is that there's a lot of people who are phobic to the idea of criticizing a particular religion.

[orestes]

Because whenever Islam is discussed as being a fundamentalist religion, brown people from the Middle East are used as examples. "Look how awful those Saudis treat women!" *gasp* Nevermind that Islam is a world religion that extends beyond the Middle East. Muslims and Arab-Americans have been played up as the bogeyman that you don't even have to be a Muslim-just unfortunate to look foreign-in this country to be perceived as a threat to people.

[slave2thewage]

a buzzword created to quell criticism of Islam in any of its applications,

As someone who is actually in Europe, Islamophobia is more of a buzzword for "boo to these brown people with their funny veils and taking all our jobs". It's more racism than a critique of the actual faith.

[botley]

I'm sorry, but this whole [Islamophobia] notion is utter horseshit. There are some lunatics who think that European countries (or the USA) are going to actually adopt Sharia law and become Muslim theocracies (yes, there's some really crazy people out there), but otherwise, this is a buzzword created to quell criticism of Islam in any of its applications, and it just sucks. The real irony is that there's a lot of people who are phobic to the idea of criticizing a particular religion.
Nope, it's fucking real (http://www.cbc.ca/news/why-online-islamophobia-is-difficult-to-stop-1.2810242): systemic prejudice against people who express Muslim beliefs, and it manifests itself as overt hate speech and violence (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2014/nov/05/islam-muslims-hate-ideology-racism) around the world (certainly in my own country (http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/11/11/quebec-ottawa-islamophobia.html)). That's bloody fucking obvious. Islamophobia might be a silly word for this, but what the fuck else would you call it? Racism doesn't capture the specificity of whom it targets, regardless of what part of the world its victims hail from. I guess all of those Muslim people who are persecuted for displaying their faith, who could never try to run for public office or express themselves in the wider social fabric without finding themselves labelled terrorist-sympathizers... should just shut up and stay in their ghettos?

[Exocet]

This new wave of conservatives to gain power in Europe freaks me out.
Nigel Farage is dangerous. I acctually for 5 minutes got swayed by him. He talks so well, comes across incredibly strong, when was the last time we had an alpha male Prime Minister? he has a real Vladimir Putin esque masculine charisma about him its infectous. Marine LePen is having a different but simillar effect on the French.
But yeah this over the top vilification of a big chunk of our population worries me. A lot needs to be done and Its not constructive at all.

[Jinsai]

As someone who is actually in Europe, Islamophobia is more of a buzzword for "boo to these brown people with their funny veils and taking all our jobs". It's more racism than a critique of the actual faith.


Nope, it's fucking real (http://www.cbc.ca/news/why-online-islamophobia-is-difficult-to-stop-1.2810242): systemic prejudice against people who express Muslim beliefs, and it manifests itself as overt hate speech and violence (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2014/nov/05/islam-muslims-hate-ideology-racism) around the world (certainly in my own country (http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/11/11/quebec-ottawa-islamophobia.html)). That's bloody fucking obvious. Islamophobia might be a silly word for this, but what the fuck else would you call it? Racism doesn't capture the specificity of whom it targets, regardless of what part of the world its victims hail from. I guess all of those Muslim people who are persecuted for displaying their faith, who could never try to run for public office or express themselves in the wider social fabric without finding themselves labelled terrorist-sympathizers... should just shut up and stay in their ghettos?

Then maybe people should stop employing it as a shutdown tactic whenever someone criticizes anything awful done in the name of Islam? Or maybe we should stop using buzzwords like this at all? If we're going to shut down a racist who is couching their racism under the guise of a criticism of Islam, then just call them a racist and point out why they're actually being racist.

I'm just sick of seeing people pulling this word out when it is completely insane to use it. I was called an Islamaphobe by a friend (of a friend) recently for talking about how disgusted I was with the fact that they still publicly behead people in Saudi Arabia. I didn't even use a word which referred to the religion. To condense it, I was relaying how horrified I was to hear that several people have recently been beheaded by the government in Saudi Arabia, "one of our allies in the Middle East," for crimes like "sorcery."

Also, @botley (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=469), I have to disagree with the primary complaint of that article addressing this phenomenon, especially where it implies that the problem can't be solved because the EU laws restricting freedom of speech aren't sufficient. The very idea that racism of any sort is actually contained by prosecuting people for exhibiting bigoted beliefs is ludicrous. You should be allowed to say whatever insane, hateful shit you want. In response, people should explain why you're being an idiot. It's a free exchange of ideas, and it allows you to identify the really ignorant hateful people. It's a good thing to know who those people are, and they should feel free to expose their ignorance to everyone around them, and face the consequences for it.

The idea that we would even consider creating laws which would protect Islam (or any religion or belief system) from angry criticism should be horrifying.

[Sutekh]

goddamnit, I'm sorry, but this whole notion is utter horseshit. There are some lunatics who think that European countries (or the USA) are going to actually adopt Sharia law and become Muslim theocracies (yes, there's some really crazy people out there), but otherwise, this is a buzzword created to quell criticism of Islam in any of its applications, and it just sucks. The real irony is that there's a lot of people who are phobic to the idea of criticizing a particular religion.

It's used in that way, certainly, and sections of the left have a problem reconciling their manifest encouragement of plurality with the realities of what that means you may have to tolerate. But nonetheless Islamophobia refers to an irrational fear of Muslims or Islam, regardless of whether people abuse the term - in which case the fault lies with them and within that issue, not the term itself

I mean people often use the term Anti-Semite as a stick to bash critics of Israeli policy with - does that mean Anti-Semitism is a horseshit notion

The issue is with the abuse of the term, not the reality of the concept

I wouldn't worry about random do-gooders attacking you for criticising KSA... a comment on them is by no means a comment on muslims in general... my liberal muslims friends hate KSA for being too barbaric and puritanical, and my conservative muslim friends hate them for being decadent and corrupt

edit - I also think it's worth pointing out that Europe is pretty hysterical at the moment - issues of nomenclature aside, there's definitely a growing number of people who regard Muslims as fifth column in Western Society. If islamophobia is an inappropriate then what is appropriate? Could say Far-Right, but this brand of prejudice doesn't take the dim view of homosexuality, Jews, feminism and the disabled that your average far right supporter does

[botley]

If we're going to shut down a racist who is couching their racism under the guise of a criticism of Islam, then just call them a racist and point out why they're actually being racist.
Fine, but what about all those cases of bigots who AREN'T criticising Islam, but simply insulting people and uttering hateful threats against them for belonging to that religion? The tweets quoted in the CBC piece I linked aren't racist, they're anti-Islamic. They make no comment about the race of the Muslims in the mosque that their writer wants to blow up. That's not a peaceful protest or a rational criticism; it's not speech worthy of protection, but it's not racism either.


The very idea that racism of any sort is actually contained by prosecuting people for exhibiting bigoted beliefs is ludicrous.
Whose argument are you attacking here? The guy in that CBC piece? Nobody is claiming you can legislate bigotry away, but I agree with the op-ed I also linked to from the Guardian: by marking it as socially unacceptable and unwanted, it can be made to wither away. I'll protect your right to criticise what is said, but if you say hateful shit about an entire people grouped together only by their religion, you should be called out on it in a way that matters, from a shared position of social authority, not by some other chump in a comment thread.


It's a good thing to know who those people are, and they should feel free to expose their ignorance to everyone around them, and face the consequences for it.
That's the problem: there are no consequences for it. You can make hateful threats towards Muslims all the live long day and there is no repercussion for you, meanwhile the environment for the Muslims living around you becomes ever-more fearful. People like us argue about whether what it is the bigots are doing is actually a thing or not, meanwhile people are being assaulted in the streets for wearing a hijab or having their windows broken or vandalized with "terrorist" scrawled on them for praying at a mosque. Don't call it Islamophobia, though, I guess?

[Jinsai]

Fine, but what about all those cases of bigots who AREN'T criticising Islam, but simply insulting people and uttering hateful threats against them for belonging to that religion? The tweets quoted in the CBC piece I linked aren't racist, they're anti-Islamic. They make no comment about the race of the Muslims in the mosque that their writer wants to blow up. That's not a peaceful protest or a rational criticism; it's not speech worthy of protection, but it's not racism either.

I feel that every form of speech is worthy of protection (with only some very specific exceptions), no matter how despicable I find it. I'm not advocating it, I'm just saying it should be permitted.



Whose argument are you attacking here? The guy in that CBC piece? Nobody is claiming you can legislate bigotry away, but I agree with the op-ed I also linked to from the Guardian: by marking it as socially unacceptable and unwanted, it can be made to wither away. I'll protect your right to criticise what is said, but if you say hateful shit about an entire people grouped together only by their religion, you should be called out on it in a way that matters, from a shared position of social authority, not by some other chump in a comment thread.

I'm not "attacking" the argument so much as disagreeing with the concept it relays: the implication that certain forms of hateful speech should be policed (in a manner similar to the way that hateful/racist speech is prohibited). A reduction of that would be the implication that banning hateful speech in any way accomplishes a greater good, which is something I just fundamentally disagree with.

The end result of banning this sort of speech, in any kind of legislated way, could easily be confused to create anti-blasphemy laws.

You run into problems when you try to legislate "hateful shit being said about an entire people grouped together only by their religion." If we prohibit that, we lose the ability to call Scientology a brainwashing scam. What constitutes "hateful?" If you imply that Scientologists are brainwashed and that the religion is a money-making scam cult, you are making a sweeping condemnation of the believers in that religion.

And even then, in the UK, they were arresting people for protesting the church of Scientology, actively stopping people from carrying signs which called it a cult. Where do you draw the line, and how is this sort of speech not already impaired in the UK?



That's the problem: there are no consequences for it.

There are many consequences for being a bigot, even if the consequences are not directly enacted by a governing power. For starters, you could easily lose your job and subsequently become unemployable.


You can make hateful threats towards Muslims all the live long day and there is no repercussion for you

But legitimate threats, or even veiled implications of potential violence, are legally prohibited. For good reason.


People like us argue about whether what it is the bigots are doing is actually a thing or not, meanwhile people are being assaulted in the streets for wearing a hijab or having their windows broken or vandalized with "terrorist" scrawled on them for praying at a mosque. Don't call it Islamophobia, though, I guess?

And this is disgusting, and a result of ignorant thinking, and that's a problem. You can call it "Islamophobia" if you feel the term applies, but you cannot deny that it is freely thrown about to criticize people for saying things that are nowhere near the nature of what you're suggesting.
Sutekh brings up an interesting comparison to the use of the word anti-semite to identify people who hold bigoted hateful feelings towards Jews. He's got a point, but yes, that word gets thrown around a lot to attack people who are not pro-Israel. Even then, at least, it is rarely used to identify people who feel that horribly interpreted Judaism, or to note that some Judaic theocracies are dangerous.

When people attack people using these terms though, to basically disarm a point they might be making, that's the danger. If we want to identify it solely in the sense that you present it, yes, that's a problem that needs addressing. We can call it whatever we want. But the people who are really concerned about that issue should be the first people to defend others against baseless extensions of that accusation, and that's not something I see happening really.

[Sutekh]

I agree these people are just racist and it would save time to just label them as such, but ultimately - and I hate this cliche - but Islam is not a race, so using the term racist to describe people who hate all muslims is surely approaching the kind of broad use/abuse of a term that you take issue with when it comes to the term "Islamophobia"

Do gooders and the ignorant will always abuse terms - conservative, liberal, socialist, nazi etc... any term with strong connotations is in danger of being misused.

I think at the end of the day, the anti-muslim violence and bigotry going on in Europe is a bigger problem than the term islamophobia being used to muzzle critics of Islam. The day it hit home for me was when the mosque in the quiet, leafy, affluent London neighbourhood I live in was burned down by the EDL - and nobody saw anything, knew anything

[Jinsai]

I think at the end of the day, the anti-muslim violence and bigotry going on in Europe is a bigger problem than the term islamophobia being used to muzzle critics of Islam. The day it hit home for me was when the mosque in the quiet, leafy, affluent London neighbourhood I live in was burned down by the EDL - and nobody saw anything, knew anything

I guess I live in a bubble. Every time I've seen someone bring up the word "Islamophobia" in real life, it is not referring to this sort of thing. Maybe this is a more prevalent issue in the UK. I honestly don't know.

I've already derailed this thread enough though probably, and that wasn't my intention.

[Sutekh]

No worries, it's all discussion - I find it interesting that things aren't as bad in the US

[Khrz]

Well it's hard to say, especially since race-based statistics are banned around here. I understand the issue, and am quite on the fence on the subject, but in the end it means that all I know about how bad or how good it is comes from the media, who are echo chambers for everyone who's howling loud enough.
So you either hear left-wing SJWs crying bloody murder, or right-wing nutjobs yelling at clouds.
Some of it is bad, my father in law trying to be edgy by denouncing every community that isn't white enough, or straight enough, or French enough, some of it is great, like my dad who's living in harmony within a neighborhood that's basically one huge Turkish community.

The problem in France is that during the 50ies we made whole families come from north Africa to help rebuilding (literally) the country, while the government promised the citizen that those people would be shipped back there once that was done. Who the fuck believed that I wonder, anyhow those people obviously didn't leave, why the hell would they ? They had built a life, they had a job, they had their family... So, from the 50ies on, there was quite a resentment towards the Arab community.
Which has now a brand new, politically acceptable face thanks to the Big Muslim Terrorist Threat. You can't say "Arabs are so and so", but hey, "Muslims are so and so" works great at parties. You can spit the exact same rhetoric and it's suddenly worth discussing.
That's what Marine LePen does. She has the charisma of a french bulldog, but she gave the Front National the best rebranding since it's inception, along with a bit of house cleaning. Her father's party used to remind everyone of Vichy, now it's simply considered like another brand of independent party, and that just with a bit of paint.
She has no charisma, but she turned the drunk in the bar next door into a political scholar.

[Sutekh]

I was driving through the French countryside in the summer and I noticed a stencil of Marine had been daubed on every pillar/lamppost bridge, but when I got close to Nantes (town/city), they had all been defaced with neon pink paint.

I think things are pretty fucked now, to be honest. I mean how can all these brainwashed people ever come back to Earth

[Tiz]

This new wave of conservatives to gain power in Europe freaks me out.
Nigel Farage is dangerous.

You really think so?

His, and his party's policies seem to be about enriching the UK's abilities to self-govern, as opposed to siphoning off control to Brussels. I don't find anything odd about that. Conservative, yes, but nothing out of the ordinary. I don't believe they've made any racist remarks. I have, however, heard many critics condemn UKIP, and Farage of xenophobia, and racism with the age-old platitude: "selective immigration policies = racism."

[Exocet]

You really think so?

His, and his party's policies seem to be about enriching the UK's abilities to self-govern, as opposed to siphoning off control to Brussels. I don't find anything odd about that. Conservative, yes, but nothing out of the ordinary. I don't believe they've made any racist remarks. I have, however, heard many critics condemn UKIP, and Farage of xenophobia, and racism with the age-old platitude: "selective immigration policies = racism."

Nah he is too much, he is too right wing for the UK at the moment. Him leading would cause a lot of friction and create a toxic atmosphere. there have been a few people associated with the UKIP party making fucking stupid racist, homophobic remarks on twitter or caught out making them. Its somewhat alarming. I respect conservatives but not bigots. the party attracts the wrong people.
i find the party regressive. I think he would isolate us, also prior to 2008 recession didnt the economy increase as a result of Labours relaxed immigration laws? Bigger population equals bigger workforce. I think the 2 million Polish and eastern Europeans who arrived here since 2004 have been a real good thing for us.
i dont agree with Brussels having control over us either, but i dont think it would be wise to cut all ties with the EU. Something about being unified with 500 Million people, the strength in numbers aspect of the EU appeals to me.

.

[icecream]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/01/daily-chart-2?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/bl/islamineurope

Neat chart showing the actual Muslim populations of Western European countries vs what people polled thought they were. Also the amount of terror related arrests and how many of those were religiously motivated vs other reasons. Didn't really have to point it out but the far right is really good at fear mongering. People in France thought Muslim populations were 31% while in reality it was only 8%. Most terror arrests come from other sources like separatism, according to the article.

[Sutekh]

absolutely. Everyone in Britain knows who Lee Rigby is, but very few can name the UK soldiers killed in a barracks shooting by the Real IRA a couple of years before. It's terrorists killing troops just the same though, but it doesn't tickle anyone's confirmation bias, and as such fails to take root in the popular imagination

[icklekitty]

Well, the IRA soldiers weren't killed off-duty during the daytime in the middle of a peaceful town centre. But you're right that other lives lost for similar reasons aren't as famous.
Tiz UKIP's policies:

Stop equal pay
Stop the 48 hour limit on the working week
Stop maternity pay
Legalise handguns (thanks Dunblane!)
Privatise the NHS (Farage himself said that he would feel "more comfortable" if UK healthcare were opened up to the marketplace.
Stop renewable energy ("blow up wind farms" in his own words)
Stop HIV positive people from coming to the UK
Repeal the human rights act

Unlike other parties, UKIP does not publish their full policies on their site. Only the "highlights". Analogy "oh baby you're so hot, we're going to live on an island with a ton of money and have beautiful children and you'll never have to worry again" CUT TO: NEXT MORNING "oh btw you have herpes. BYE!"

Also I'm pretty sure referring to foreign people as being "from bongo bongo land" is pretty fucking racist.

[WorzelG]

What about that comment Farage made when he was late for something recently and was blaming the immigrants on the M4, that was pretty bad I thought (as well as complete bollocks)

[Exocet]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/01/daily-chart-2?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/bl/islamineurope

Neat chart showing the actual Muslim populations of Western European countries vs what people polled thought they were. Also the amount of terror related arrests and how many of those were religiously motivated vs other reasons. Didn't really have to point it out but the far right is really good at fear mongering. People in France thought Muslim populations were 31% while in reality it was only 8%. Most terror arrests come from other sources like separatism, according to the article.

Erm...31 percent of France is around 25 million. most people knew it was around 5 million. Even 10 million would be absurd

[icecream]

Erm...31 percent of France is around 25 million. most people knew it was around 5 million. Even 10 million would be absurd

The people asked must not have taken that into consideration. Probably thought, "I see brown people everywhere. Ermmm 31%!"

[Sutekh]

UK General Election today, a good test for the fortunes of the far right - will they be able to cash in on the growing anti muslim/immigrant hysteria and dissatisfaction with mainstream parties?

I won't go on about the exit poll (a forecast based on a sample of 22000) as in a few hours it will be meaningless as we'll have the actual results, but if Farage of UKIP wins his south thanet seat I think that will act as a pretty good indicator of that party's long term prospects

[icklekitty]

And the exit polls were completely right. ugh.

[Sutekh]

baby boomers protecting their money, brainwashed by neoliberalism. At least they'll die soonish

[Dra508]

baby boomers protecting their money, brainwashed by neoliberalism. At least they'll die soonishBeing 'Merican, I didn't know this term neoliberalism. Now, I understand why. Never do the words liberal and Ronald Reagan go in the same sentence.

At least you guys just pull the band aid fast and get the election over with. Over here, we have to endure months and months and months of campaigning. What a waste.

[Sutekh]

its a great term because you can bash off the leash capitalism, and some conservatives will actually listen because they think you're bashing liberals. It's also a good way of making it clear you're not necessarily a marxist

anyway ukip got 3.5 (apprx) million votes (out of about 40 mil), but hilariously only 1 mp. this basically shows that populist far right support is not particularly concentrated anywhere and rather it was thinly spread clusters of supporters across the uk. or village idiots, if you're feeling catty.

to be fair it's more or less the same story for the greens.

back on topic, remember the BNP? a more classically far right, gay hating jew baiting party - who stunned a lot of people by copping half a million votes in 2005. Well they scored just 1667 votes this time, in one case beaten by a candidate from a party called "cannabis is safer than alcohol".

hmm... its almost as if they all flocked to some other party! ahem

anyway, further evidence imo of the rebranding of the far right as populist muslim bashing as opposed to quote unquote democrats attempting to trojan neo nazism into the mainstream

[Sutekh]

i think its safe to say that at the very least the FN will be coalition partners in the next french government :/

[reznovka]

I live in Germany and was born back in the GDR (East Germany ;) ) and when I saw the results of the election in the part of Germany I come from I was shocked...
26% gave their vote to the "AFD" (Alternative für Deutschland - Alternative for Germany) and the far right political ideas...I am happy that Merkel is still working on an european solution and still welcomes all the refugees but the borders around Germany stay closed and now all the stupid germans think they're poor (we have the best welfare and health care system - nobody has to live on the streets and everybody gets the best medical treatment) and blame the refugees...Germany is on it's way back to 1933.

[Khrz]

i think its safe to say that at the very least the FN will be coalition partners in the next french government :/

I wouldn't be so sure about that. They're the Trumps of France : a way to express discontent towards the political and social climate. That doesn't make them suitable partners, and they're still very much shunned politically (if not, alas, ideologically).
Their popularity may influence the future rhetoric and arguments during the next elections, but I really doubt that any mainstream political faction will want to be seen with them. Such alliance would be way too risky, as it could backfire horribly for the main party involved. Their reputation and credibility could be destroyed for years.
The left would never even use the FN rethoric. In fact, they would drop their own narrative if the FN managed to succesfully own it up, that's how shunned they are on that side. And our traditional right wing is very much social-liberal, closer to the american left wing than the right. They'll never go far right enough to meet the FN. The few rogues who tried to use the same kind of points and populism have all fell off the map quickly.

[WorzelG]

So I finally got a government leaflet through the mail about why the UK should stay in Europe when we have the EU referendum. At last, it really feels like all the campaigning has been on the leave Europe side which I really don't want to happen

[Exocet]

So I finally got a government leaflet through the mail about why the UK should stay in Europe when we have the EU referendum. At last, it really feels like all the campaigning has been on the leave Europe side which I really don't want to happen

What does it say about the EU, when the U.K the second richest country in the European Union...second most populated...that many people in the U.K really dont even care about the institution...or know what it does exactly? It just does not impact on daily lives.

The whole Union needs a reformation its all so vauge.

The U.K has always distanced itself, and never been as involved with the EU as much as Germany, France or Italy.

I dont really like the EU ..but i think it would be stupid to leave. There is not much of a clear plan, if we do leave.
If the leave plan was clearer i would be up for it.

If we did leave it wont be catastrophic like some of the pro EU fear mongers are saying...infact it could be a good thing..but there is no clear plan in place.
I would give it another decade see if we can reform things.

I dont think we will leave...it will be a narrow victory for remaining.

But if we did leave and the economy stayed on track, THAT would be the death knell for the EU.
If France saw us doing better outside they would leave.

[aggroculture]

Starting to get worried that Brexit will win...this would be a horrible, stupid decision.
For me personally, it would mean that I could not live or work in the EU anymore.

[Khrz]

If France saw us doing better outside they would leave.

We're one of the founding nations, I find that unlikely. As you said it's not like UK was ever part of the gang, whether it decides to join or leave at least we'll know where it stands at last... Seeing UK flourish outside of the EU wouldn't imply that leaving the EU is a good idea, except for some far right/left simplistic populists.

[WorzelG]

Starting to get worried that Brexit will win...this would be a horrible, stupid decision.
For me personally, it would mean that I could not live or work in the EU anymore.

The way i'm feeling us that if all the polls say brexit is winning it might stir more people to vote stay. I think complacency is a very bad thing and people on the stay side have been guilty of that and the campaign was crap.

[icklekitty]

What does it say about the EU, when the U.K the second richest country in the European Union...second most populated...that many people in the U.K really dont even care about the institution...or know what it does exactly?


This is what's hit me the most; many people don't even know what the EU is for, and even official bodies (universities, embassies) have no idea what would and wouldn't change if we left. Stupid things I've heard include:

- If Brexit happens we will be able to get rid of the Tories (WTAF?!)
- We can just become like Norway (er, yeah, who have their own money due to oil, pay shitloads of tax and still have to comply to all the European trade and immigration regulations you are whining about)
- If we leave the EU we'll lose all our human rights (The EU brought in many workers rights but the European Court of Human Rights is a separate thing)
- If Brexit happens we can fill the Eurotunnel with concrete to keep them all out (add 10 bonus points if this is voiced by a naturalised immigrant)


I'm just really glad I'm bilingual and have dual citizenship.

[WorzelG]

Just voted Remain. Now I'm going to feel sick to my stomach till we find out the results tomorrow.

[aggroculture]

crossing my fingers that Remain wins; also have a knot in my stomach about it, and wishing I'd got my act together for a postal vote.

[miss k bee]

I will stay up till 3am to see the results. It is so close, I feel sick. One for certain the UK is as divided as ever.

[slave2thewage]

Praise the old gods and the new, Remain is now leading (albeit slightly) at the time of this post. I didn't think it would be this close, but looking in, it seemed the Leave side were thriving off of muddying the waters with other issues.

[miss k bee]

50 / 50 now

[WorzelG]

Fuck leave is now leading and the pound is tanking. I hope the leave fucks are happy.

At least Cardiff / Vale of Glamorgan where I live voted Remain so I don't feel totally surrounded by stupid

[Alexandros]

BBC is now calling it for Leave...damn, I was not expecting this! What the hell Brits??

[aggroculture]

heartbroken

[Microwave Jellyfish]

Not the best news for me, but I understand GB's thinking behind it.

Strange years ahead.

[WorzelG]

The UK will break up now. Scotland will want to leave and rejoin the EU but they'll have to accept the euro. So many many little things that will change that no one realises because the campaigns were so bad and hardly any genuine practical information about what would / could happen was given. It sucks on so many levels

[Ryan]

David Cameron has resigned.

[Vertigo]

Yup, the campaigns were terrible (particularly Remain's, thanks Cameron, Sturgeon etc). Lots of nonsense, petty non-points, scaremongering and a dearth of hard facts.

I wasn't sure I was right to vote remain even when filling out the poll card, but this morning it seems a lot clearer: the option we've ended up with is pretty fucking scary.

[Khrz]

It feels like finding out this old buddy with which you kept bickering for years actually doesn't like you.

I know it's not an issue between the UK and France, but it's disheartening all the same.

[miss k bee]

Fuck I feel sick. The fact Marie le Pen is hailing the result says it all.

[WorzelG]

It feels like finding out this old buddy with which you kept bickering for years actually doesn't like you.

I know it's not an issue between the UK and France, but it's disheartening all the same.

Honestly I was about to make some platitudes along the 'we do like you really'lines but in fact this whole thing has been horrifying - you know when you realise half the people you live among have really obnoxious views. It's something you half knew but didn't want to accept but this referendum is like somebody ripping off a scab revealing oozing pus underneath.
But your life and livelihood depends on the country not going down the shItter and all the 'leave' people are telling you to shut up and get on with it. Ugh. I'm friends with a fair few Europeans (including french people) who have made lives here and are lovely and don't deserve this shit. I could go on and on

[Vertigo]

I don't know if that's the right thing to take from this. It's UKIP which runs on xenophobia, and despite all the fuss they caused, how many seats did they actually win in the general election? They clearly don't represent anything vaguely near a majority in the population. Seems most voters had other reasons for choosing to leave.

[Khrz]

Just because a party doesn't gather that much votes doesn't mean their rethoric and ideology doesn't echo with a majority... Our own national front is seen as an abhorrent bunch of nasty fuckers, it doesn't mean that their points on immigration, indépendance from Europe and such don't strike a chord.

[WorzelG]

The London Mayor issued some nice reassurance to Europeans living in London
https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/746329838307282945

The thing is if the Europeans working in the UK had been allowed to vote we'd probably still be in the EU. It's a travesty they weren't to be honest

[onthewall2983]

Forgive my naivety, but what are any potential upsides to this?

[aggroculture]

None that I can see. It was a self-destructive protest vote largely about immigration, mostly by old people who will not have to live with its consequences.
Socialists trying to spin it as a victory for workers against teh evil neoliberal machine are clutching at straws, Greek people happy at the EU being weakened are understandable, but when you're on the same page as Golden Dawn, then you should be worried.

[WorzelG]

I agree with @aggrogulture . I can see factors which might lessen the impact and make it not as bad as we think, but no real positive. It's an isolationist backwards step. I just hope other countries realise nigh on half of us didnt want this and go easy on us!
There is one thing though, I believe Norway and Iceland are part of the European economic area and allow free trade and movement of people. I hope we end up like that

[liquidcalm]

Man, fuck this country.
I don't understand how such an even, even if it is 'slightly' more in favour of such a huge shift, split should have such an effect on us all. LOL Politricks!
Yes it's very reactionary, but I've begun looking for work abroad because frankly I don't feel welcome in my own country, so I might as well go elsewhere and at least experience new things and feel the same.

[r_z]

LOL Politricks!

IMO this referendum is a perfect example of a few things: 1) political questions like this are way too complex to just vote "YES" or "NO"; 2) too many people don't know shit about those questions to the extent that they can't even see the consequences or simply don't care about them; 3) too many people fall prey for opportunists who stear up fears with wrong information or straight up lies;

[WorzelG]

Man, fuck this country.
I don't understand how such an even, even if it is 'slightly' more in favour of such a huge shift, split should have such an effect on us all. LOL Politricks!
Yes it's very reactionary, but I've begun looking for work abroad because frankly I don't feel welcome in my own country, so I might as well go elsewhere and at least experience new things and feel the same.

This is my problem. It seems that democracy means half the country is forced into this situation. Someone suggested it would have seemed fairer if leave had had to get a 60% majority. At least that would have felt decisive. (And since they are the ones wanting change from the status quo they should have to get more of a majority)

[Jinsai]

I had no idea the exit vote even had a chance... this is shocking.

[liquidcalm]

This is my problem. It seems that democracy means half the country is forced into this situation. Someone suggested it would have seemed fairer if leave had had to get a 60% majority. At least that would have felt decisive. (And since they are the ones wanting change from the status quo they should have to get more of a majority)

Indeed, but now instead of making this argument the 'Remain' camp.. who represent over 17 million people seems to be like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Like, I concede that there are over 50%, but it was only two options, and it is currently dragging the other 17million with them. It's fucking crazy in fact. And what do I see in the media but some hand stroking of 'there there, accept it and lets all learn to get on'.

[WorzelG]

IMO this referendum is a perfect example of a few things: 1) political questions like this are way too complex to just vote "YES" or "NO"; 2) too many people don't know shit about those questions to the extent that they can't even see the consequences or simply don't care about them; 3) too many people fall prey for opportunists who stear up fears with wrong information or straight up lies;

Also the British press is absolutely toxic and spewing out racist scaremongering shit for months, beyond what they normally do

[aggroculture]

Indeed, but now instead of making this argument the 'Remain' camp.. who represent over 17 million people seems to be like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Like, I concede that there are over 50%, but it was only two options, and it is currently dragging the other 17million with them. It's fucking crazy in fact. And what do I see in the media but some hand stroking of 'there there, accept it and lets all learn to get on'.

It's too late to change the rules of the referendum. What would you suggest they do now?

[Rossva]

The thing is if the Europeans working in the UK had been allowed to vote we'd probably still be in the EU. It's a travesty they weren't to be honest


A travesty really? Wow, how do you believe that? Sorry I don't follow that logic at all. I'm not aware of anywhere else this works? (Please do correct me if I'm wrong - i probably am!)



This is my problem. It seems that democracy means half the country is forced into this situation. Someone suggested it would have seemed fairer if leave had had to get a 60% majority. At least that would have felt decisive. (And since they are the ones wanting change from the status quo they should have to get more of a majority) You seem to be suggesting the rules of democracy should be re-written just to end up with the result you want? And if the 'out' vote had got 60% no doubt you'd be saying 'should have been 70%'

Would it have been OK if the vote had been the other way, and 49% of the voting population wanted to leave?

[liquidcalm]

It's too late to change the rules of the referendum. What would you suggest they do now?
It seems like clutching at straws but its not legally binding to actually do it, the majority of parliament was for Remain, including the whole 'opposition'. The laws will need replacing which has to go through them. So. Talk to your MPs.
A lot of people seem shocked by the fact that people have already lost jobs, our money has lost well over 10% of its value and no-one seems to know where the 'savings' are going to come from. I'd want to see another referendum in a months time, like the are you sure button when you accidently close Word. But what do I know, I'm a fucking bleeding heart liberal.

[aggroculture]

Looks like nobody in control of this thing actually thought it would end up this way.
If they'd thought they'd actually lose...maybe they wouldn't have called the referendum to begin with, which would have been the better option.

What baffles me is: why did the UK re-elect Cameron on a landslide victory last year only to crush him now?

Also: I totally support Scotland seceding and staying in the EU, and Ireland FINALLY uniting. RIP the UK. I guess it was time.

[WorzelG]

You seem to be suggesting the rules of democracy should be re-written just to end up with the result you want? And if the 'out' vote had got 60% no doubt you'd be saying 'should have been 70%'

Would it have been OK if the vote had been the other way, and 49% of the voting population wanted to leave?
It just seems such a tiny mandate to do something so momentous. There's no going back from this. I wish they'd thought it through and put the 60% in to begin with

[cashpiles (closed)]

Democracy must be respected. There are videos and articles describing all the advantages of an EU-free Great Britain. Check 'em out.

[Khrz]

Like being freed from the laws and trade constraints that they'll have to comply to anyway if they want to continue to trade with the EU, except that now they'll have none of the benefits coming from their former position?

[aggroculture]

Exactly. The idea that EU will give them better trade deals after being given the finger is delusional bullshit.

[Vertigo]

I don't think anyone thought that. The question is whether we'd be able to have freer trade and emigration agreements with nations outside the EU, now we're able to negotiate our own deals. Not sure whether there's any basis to that - my mum's under the impression that we had to cut ties in those aspects with Commonwealth countries when we joined the EU, but I haven't been able to find anything supporting that.

I wonder if there's any possibility of a second referendum before any formal arrangements are made, if new systems in the EU emerge (which may happen given the high possibility of other countries moving to secede). Scotland are trying for another UK referendum already, afterall...

[icklekitty]

I feel like a large part of my identity has been ripped away from me. Politically I think we will end up with some kind of EEA agreement (which, basically, we may as well have remained) but it's so disheartening to know how many people think in this country (the vast majority of leavers were English).

I live in a constituency that voted overwhelmingly for Remain; everyone in London looks so depressed today. I have to do the Pride parade in 12 hours but I'm losing my fucks.

My mum only moved to the UK because she couldn't get a job in France. I'm currently grateful I at least have an African passport too.


why did the UK re-elect Cameron on a landslide victory last year only to crush him now?

Because the UK are 60% illiterate fucktards that believe anything Rupert Murdoch tell them and think the Empire still exist. We are America's Dad and our only redeeming feature was our European wife who we've now decided to divorce but still want to be friends with benefits and get blowjobs from every other day.




:mad:

[slave2thewage]

Also: I totally support Scotland seceding and staying in the EU, and Ireland FINALLY uniting. RIP the UK. I guess it was time.

Scotland's definitely going, but NI will probably be still in the UK for some time. It's too hard to tell how public support is for a united Ireland is there, plus the DUP would raze the place to the ground before unification. There'd have to be two votes as well - Northern Ireland first, and if they approved unification then the Republic would have to vote to change the constitution.

This is probably the groundwork for unification, though. It's just gonna take years.

[allegro]

Forgive my American-ness (and I remember when the EU didn't exist) but the EU is relatively "new" in history, wasn't it signed into force in 1993? Like, a little more than 20 years ago? Somehow I think, like, a year from now, people will forget this even happened.

I mean, this isn't as big as, say, leaving NATO or something. I think it comes down to what it represents more than what it actually is?

[slave2thewage]

but the EU is relatively "new" in history, wasn't it signed into force in 1993? Like, a little more than 20 years ago? It was founded in 1957. Britain joined in 1973.


I mean, this isn't as big as, say, leaving NATO or something. Nah, this is bigger. Europeans don't give a flying fuck about NATO in general - a good part of the continent isn't in it. Methinks you're seeing this through American eyes.

[allegro]

It was founded in 1957. Britain joined in 1973.

Nah, this is bigger. Europeans don't give a flying fuck about NATO in general - a good part of the continent isn't in it. Methinks you're seeing this through American eyes.

I guess I was talking about this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#Maastricht_Treaty_.281992.E2.80.93p resent.29).

In 1973, it was known as the European Economic Community (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/1/newsid_2459000/2459167.stm).


Membership applications by the UK to join the EEC were refused in 1963 and 1967 because the French President of the time Charles de Gaulle doubted the UK's political will.

It is understood, however, his real fear was that English would suddenly become the common language of the community.

LOL

So it's been a true benefit, overall, to Britain, since 1973?

I know here in the U.S., voters are pushing to get OUT of a whole bunch of trade union agreements. I guess the same thing. This sort of "us vs. them" crap.

Now this shit is kicking our stock market's ass (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/markets/2016/06/24/brexit-bombshell-torpedoes-global-markets/86323890/) (but of course every time somebody farts, it affects our stock market).


Nah, this is bigger. Europeans don't give a flying fuck about NATO in general - a good part of the continent isn't in it. Methinks you're seeing this through American eyes.
Actually, heh, Americans don't like NATO, either, heh. We think we funnel way too much fucking money into it.

You are quite certainly still in NATO, though (http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683024/EU-referendum-Britains-place-NATO-remain-unchanged).

I'm not looking at this from a "voter's" view but from the "world" view, e.g. how to world leaders see it, or from an economic standpoint, or credit ratings and all that shit. Is this going to make things a lot worse?

[Khrz]

Nah, this is bigger.

Wayyy bigger, the economic, political and diplomatic ramifications will be felt for the years to come on a global scale. EU will be forced to change, thee will either be a shift of powers or a consolidation of the players in place, Russia will use it as a major play, so will Turkey... Lots of EU nations will wonder "what if", which will cause a lot of political movement...
What just happened is groundbreaking. Exiting NATO, in comparison, is a blip.

Edit : From an European standpoint anyway. But Americans will feel it too, and Trump has already (mis)used it as an argument. UK leaving the EU can be twisted, after all, to fit any and all narrative.


Is this going to make things a lot worse?

Well it's a huge destabilization, and if there's one thing that investors and banks don't like, it's uncertainty. So so far, that's not good. On the long run it's impossible to say, maybe the EU will sort its shit out without losing too many members, maybe the UK will manage to work it and make it through intact, maybe Russia won't try to take advantage of EU's sudden political weakness...

A lot of shit can go real south real fast, but maybe it just won't.

[DigitalChaos]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160624/690121c8c25da1ff97c31d19bce5b828.jpg

[allegro]

A lot of shit can go real south real fast, but maybe it just won't.
Thanks. I found this interesting article about it (http://www.vox.com/2016/6/23/12021222/brexit-what-happens-next).

[Khrz]

Thanks. I found this interesting article about it (http://www.vox.com/2016/6/23/12021222/brexit-what-happens-next).

... And that article only cites the UK-centric short-term consequences... It doesn't even touch the consequences for the EU itself.

The part about companies using UK as a bridge to the EU is a very important point, and England has a lot to lose in that regard. Since they've been tiptoeing from the beginning, I doubt they'll get a great deal out, which my be a huge issue for international companies who enjoyed the benefits of UK business laws while being able to sell anywhere in the EU where laws are more restrictive. Now, this incentive may be gone.

[thevoid99]

Here's some thoughts from a blogger friend of mine about what this means for the British film industry and it looks like it will be bad: https://flixchatter.net/2016/06/24/musings-on-brexit-thoughts-from-a-cinephile/

[WorzelG]

I'm so pissed off. The Leave campaigners are full of shit, apart from Boris Johnson saying 'err there's no rush to invoke article 50' (well Europe may disagree you floppy haired twat). There just seems to be radio silence when they should be reassuring people! Uurggh

[Khrz]

Yeah fromm what I've heard and read, everyone wants the break-up to be done with ASAP, now that the decision's made.

[r_z]

Only problem being: the ball's in London now. The EU can't act until the British apply for a leave.

You can imagine how EU leaders feel about Cameron deciding to take a few months time until his party finally figured out who will follow him...

[Khrz]

Nobody is going to be pleased with UK beating around the bush, its been that way since the 70ies (I want to say since WWII, but that's not the point), there's enough of that.
The UK wasn't quite sure it wanted to be part of the EU, now it's not quite sure it wants to be out? Come on... Its like a boyfriend who never wanted to move in, who eventually decided to call it quits, and now wants to stay in the couch for a few months while he gathers his things.
I hate to see UK go, but if it has to go, just go...

[botley]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

[slave2thewage]

I'm so pissed off. The Leave campaigners are full of shit, apart from Boris Johnson saying 'err there's no rush to invoke article 50' (well Europe may disagree you floppy haired twat). There just seems to be radio silence when they should be reassuring people! Uurggh

I don't think even they were expecting to win, so they're just running around with no idea of what to do. Boris and Nigel were probably up all night drinking champagne from the Jimmy Choos of Polish strippers, as well.

[WorzelG]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

I signed that but I don't necessarily think it's the right thing, it's clutching at straws.

I don't want to leave but Khrz is right, now it's been done we need someone to take charge and get on with it. It takes 2 years anyway but we need decisive action to give some financial stability.

[Khrz]

I signed that but I don't necessarily think it's the right thing, it's clutching at straws.

I don't want to leave but [MENTION=2023]It takes 2 years anyway but we need decisive action to give some financial stability.

Exactly. Stalling won't do any good to anyone, in fact it will only make things way harder. Neither the UK nor the EU can afford to stay in limbo, now less than ever. UK needs to come up with solutions for its own financial safety, and the EU needs to be able to move on quick, otherwise the extreme right will have a field day everywhere making it seem like leaving the union is no big deal.
At least UK kept its currency, our own "dissidents" are even more stupid, saying we'll be better off jumping ship...

[aggroculture]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-result-latest-david-lammy-mp-eu-referendum-result-parliament-twitter-statement-stop-this-a7102931.html
I can see how this approach is tempting, and part of me is rooting for some way to stop this idiocy and for the UK to stay
...but again, like the contents of that referendum, they needed to say this stuff before.
Since they didn't it is just a case of trying to bolt the door after the horse has escaped.

[Khrz]

On the other hand, there's no saving faces now. The tories either own up the forecoming mess that a departure entails, o back off and look like utter morons. Either way they're drowning in a huge, smoldering pool of shit.
Might as well pretend it was all a joke and look like idiots anyway. I mean, it's not like the mess could be any worse at this point, it won't divide Britain any further...

[marodi]

Why Brexit is the biggest step backward since World Ward II (http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/25/opinions/brexit-step-backward-charles-kaiser/index.html)

Ouch.

From the outside, it looks like a huge bunch of people got drunk and, like drunk people mostly do, made bad decisions and woke up the next morning, going WTF JUST HAPPENED?

I feel for you guys, I really do. I cannot imagine how you are going to get out of this mess.

[Khrz]

Well some people apparently are now claiming they only wanted it to be a protest vote, but on the other hand there's no statistics about that, so there's no way to tell if it's any significant... But thanks for fucking up the democratic process just because you wanted to piss your pants in a temper tantrum. That's how we almost ended up with a far right president in 2002,over here.

[liquidcalm]

"Hey guys! I'm gonna piss my jeans!"
"Oh.. really? Why?"
"Cus I hate the pockets, frankly I could hold most of this stuff in my hands anyway."
"Oh.. okay, I guess, but what about the urine all over you?"
"Ah screw it" *Pisses jeans*
".."
"Guys my legs are sticky and this is uncomfortable, also I forgot to take my phone out of my pocket and now there is piss on it"

[miss k bee]

It's descending into farce now. The Labour party are eating themselves alive, the Labour deputy leader has gone missing on the way back from Glastonbury, George Osborne has gone missing, the petition for a 2nd EU referendum has reached 3 million ..

[Khrz]

the petition for a 2nd EU referendum has reached 3 million ..

Problem is, even IF that decision was cancelled, UK has lost most of its leverage, and the EU can't afford to make you look good. They have all the reasons to use UK as an example of why leaving is a terrible decision, there's just too much at stake, too many countries waiting to see what happens to inform their own decision...
If you guys eventually decide to stay, EU will try its best to chain you to the plumbing for good.


Edit : ironically, politicians here are asking to cancel the agreement of Calais, effectively restoring "proper" frontiers between France and Britain, which means that a campaign based on the fear of immigrants will result in a huge wave of immigrants.

[cashpiles (closed)]

the petition for a 2nd EU referendum has reached 3 million ..

That's not surprising.. Many people from the losing side will want to add their names to the petition, along with some people from the winning side who are now having second thoughts.

Maybe the system should be changed. Any major vote should be held three times. Whatever side of the vote wins 2 out of 3 times will be held to.

[Substance242]

My view on referendums in general. Every 4 years during the "big" elections, I responsibly choose and go vote. Then I expect them (parties, politicians, whatever) to leave me alone, do their work professionally, and do not waste my money on referendums. They already have our mandate, or don't they...?

[Frozen Beach]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/concern-as-online-call-for-second-brexit-vote-gains-more-than-39/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/concern-as-online-call-for-second-brexit-vote-gains-more-than-39/)

[WorzelG]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/concern-as-online-call-for-second-brexit-vote-gains-more-than-39/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/concern-as-online-call-for-second-brexit-vote-gains-more-than-39/)
The way things are going there won't be any MPs in Parliament to even discuss it, no matter how many signatures are there. It's seriously disturbing how there is no leadership after such a momentous result

[Khrz]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-petition-second-eu-referendum-latest-news-vote-leave-a7104076.html

Oh my fucking God...

[Nyx]

http://i.imgur.com/dhwPLtv.gif

[DF118]

I swear, in my fucking life, I have never felt so proud to be Scottish, yet so horrified to be British.

[DigitalChaos]

Well some people apparently are now claiming they only wanted it to be a protest vote, but on the other hand there's no statistics about that, so there's no way to tell if it's any significant... But thanks for fucking up the democratic process just because you wanted to piss your pants in a temper tantrum. That's how we almost ended up with a far right president in 2002,over here.

And that is the key. SO may of the liberals attached to this issue are trying to frame the entire vote of SEVEN MILLION as simply racism, old people, and regretful protest voters. The way i am seeing liberals continually "other-ize" people in such cartoonish narratives is sad. You'll never understand why people are voting this way and it means this type of problem is only going to continue to grow. So thank you for being a very small portion of people who seem interested in questioning that narrative.


It's interesting to see that this divide is happening globally though. The US is about to have a similar dilemma soon.

[DF118]

And that is the key. SO may of the liberals attached to this issue are trying to frame the entire vote of SEVEN MILLION as simply racism, old people, and regretful protest voters. The way i am seeing liberals continually "other-ize" people in such cartoonish narratives is sad. You'll never understand why people are voting this way and it means this type of problem is only going to continue to grow. So thank you for being a very small portion of people who seem interested in questioning that narrative.


It's interesting to see that this divide is happening globally though. The US is about to have a similar dilemma soon.


It was seventeen million. Specifically: 17,410,742. Which is evidence enough that you don't really know what you're talking about. Trust the perspective of someone who spent the first 30 years of their life in an increasingly intolerant, dangerous UK. This is seventeen million votes cast from the perspective of racism, old people, and sad, ill-informed, regretful protest. That's not a liberal filter, it's just Occam's razor, and the UK knows it. Hence why anyone there who isn't an intolerable cunt-bag is absolutely horrified right now.

You're questioning the wrong thing- you should be wondering why there are so many intolerable cunt-bags in the UK in the first place. Geographically distributed in Middle England especially. These traits don't just spring up overnight.

[DF118]

The way things are going there won't be any MPs in Parliament to even discuss it, no matter how many signatures are there. It's seriously disturbing how there is no leadership after such a momentous result

Doesn't matter anyway, can't happen because this would require retroactive legislation and the UK won't invent new laws just because some petitioners didn't like an outcome.

This is interesting speculation, albeit a little simplistic: Boris Johnson's reaction to his win may be subdued, because he just realized how fucked he is. (http://qz.com/717182/a-brexit-conspiracy-theory-nails-the-no-win-situation-boris-johnson-now-finds-himself-in/)

[WorzelG]

And that is the key. SO may of the liberals attached to this issue are trying to frame the entire vote of SEVEN MILLION as simply racism, old people, and regretful protest voters. The way i am seeing liberals continually "other-ize" people in such cartoonish narratives is sad. You'll never understand why people are voting this way and it means this type of problem is only going to continue to grow. So thank you for being a very small portion of people who seem interested in questioning that narrative.


It's interesting to see that this divide is happening globally though. The US is about to have a similar dilemma soon.
I come from the same background as people who voted leave, white working class, but I left my roots and went to work in London. Part of the problem is that wealth seems locked up in the metropolitan regions and doesn't spread out to the rest of the country and they feel alienated and left behind. People seem to want to turn the clock back on globalisation also but they still want their smartphone and cheap consumer goods, you can't have both.

The old people narrative pissed me off too because even if a high proportion of young voted remain, a high proportion of them didn't bother to vote either

[DigitalChaos]

Ok 17mil. That just makes it more insane to try and explain all those people away with such simple and all-inclusive statements.


I come from the same background as people who voted leave, white working class, but I left my roots and went to work in London. Part of the problem is that wealth seems locked up in the metropolitan regions and doesn't spread out to the rest of the country and they feel alienated and left behind. People seem to want to turn the clock back on globalisation also but they still want their smartphone and cheap consumer goods, you can't have both.

The old people narrative pissed me off too because even if a high proportion of young voted remain, a high proportion of them didn't bother to vote either

Yup! I recall seeing a huge correlation between wealth (or income?) and the voting pattern. Those with more money voted for remain. There are some fundamental societal issues that tie into this whole thing and it needs to be addressed or you will see more of this.

[WorzelG]

Ok 17mil. That just makes it more insane to try and explain all those people away with such simple and all-inclusive statements.



Yup! I recall seeing a huge correlation between wealth (or income?) and the voting pattern. Those with more money voted for remain. There are some fundamental societal issues that tie into this whole thing and it needs to be addressed or you will see more of this.

Except that a lot of those places (Wales particularly where I live) got a lot of money from the EU for regeneration schemes whatever so they've shot themselves in the foot. The remain campaign should have pointed this out of course but it failed completely against the awful racist rhetoric of the leave campaign.

[Khrz]

The way i am seeing liberals continually "other-ize" people in such cartoonish narratives is sad.

Except that the campaign's point was largely xenophobe, and since there are apparently displays of triumphant racism right now, acknowledging that a large part of the Leave vote was xenophobia-driven is only a fair assumption. Statistics also show that the youth vote was tipping heavily towards the Remain, and that curve reverses past a certain age threshold. And a lot of people voted to protest, which is expected, no matter the issue, except this time this is a definitive decision, there's no amending, there's no going back, which makes this kind of senseless democracy a wee bit more enraging.

Your point is sound, but unfair. Both sides act this way, all the time. Your wording make it seem like it's exclusively a liberal thing to paint the other side with the broadest strokes, like the conservatives never do that when they don't have their ways. Sounds biased to me.

If these are the Leave voters denounced by the Remain voters, it's because those are the problem with UK politics right now, the people who wouldn't trust no experts because it was too complicated and intellectuals can't be trusted. Nobody has any grief with those who made an informed decision, who knew what they voted for and why. Despite having an opposite point of view, that point is respectable and informed. No, the problem is with those who voted to kick out anyone who wasn't British enough, those who voted for some Downtown Abbey image of England that never was, those who just wanted to stir shit up and didn't realize that was no time for it.

And again, racism has its roots, angry nostalgia has its reasons, disillusion with politics and the wish to kick the house of cards are rooted in a deep, day to day discontent. Sure. But if, say, Trump was elected, it would be hard to actually do a proper post-mortem on that and "make sure it won't happen again". It's happened, it's done. And from my experience, people who vote that way don't have many complex layers to their thinking. They're unhappy with the way things are, and their reasoning is that it all began when things became less French, or less American, or less British. There's no solution to that, even compromise is met with defiance and frustration.

[botley]

Yep, from a sociological point of view it's fascinating (and terrifying) to see people embrace a nihilistic interpretation of the world. But you can see where it's all rooted (http://www.perc.org.uk/project_posts/thoughts-on-the-sociology-of-brexit/).

[Khrz]

Meanwhile, nations that might genuinely describe themselves as ‘shackled’, have suffered such serious threats to their democracy as to have unelected Prime Ministers imposed upon them by the Troika, and have had their future forcibly removed thanks to the European Union, might look at Brexit and wonder.

Except that, contrary to the relatively thriving and free United Kingdom, the aforementioned countries have even more to lose. The mere cost of switching back your currency could drive those countries into the ground.
They may wonder, they will, they'll even seriously entertain the thought. And I actually wish that they'll try to strong arm the EU, force it to re-evaluate its mechanisms. But UK was actually one of the only countries, beside Germany or Netherlands for instance, who can actually afford to leave I think.

[aggroculture]

This ousting of Corbyn is disgraceful: he's being blamed for not winning a fight he didn't pick.
It's a dishonest pretext to pull the party rightward, back into Blairite territory: also, thus, a betrayal of Labor working class voters who voted Leave as a protest vote against globalization and Blairite neoliberalism that left them behind.

[WorzelG]

This ousting of Corbyn is disgraceful: he's being blamed for not winning a fight he didn't pick.
It's a dishonest pretext to pull the party rightward, back into Blairite territory: also, thus, a betrayal of Labor working class voters who voted Leave as a protest vote against globalization and Blairite neoliberalism that left them behind.
A large proportion of those working class people voting against globalisation own smartphones and have for years plus lots of clothes / consumer goods made in China or wherever. Do they think the phones are made in some factory in Barnsley? You go back to some old labour protectionist society you can kiss all that goodbye

[Dra508]

The US is about to have a similar dilemma soon.

If only we can learn from this..... Plenty of middle Americans who feel just as passed over.

[icklekitty]

Only problem being: the ball's in London now. The EU can't act until the British apply for a leave.

You can imagine how EU leaders feel about Cameron deciding to take a few months time until his party finally figured out who will follow him...


Its hilarious how how the Leave leaders keep passing the buck on "taking control" on this.

Legally the referendum is advisory. Parliament still have to vote on it and can call a referendum. Whenever Article 50 is invoked legally nothing can change with our EU relationship for two years. It's looking more likely that this won't happen. We may stay in this stalemate for some time.

[DF118]

This ousting of Corbyn is disgraceful: he's being blamed for not winning a fight he didn't pick.


That's fine in UK politics, though. If Labour has no confidence in him he has to go. He had a responsibility to make sure his party line was enforced- the Leave result being evidence enough that he couldn't do this. Moreover, there's speculation is that he took an deliberately passive role- effectively eroding the Stay campaign. If that has merit, against his party's wishes, he's done.

[Exocet]

Im not surpised by the result at all. People forget how much difference the English channel has made to our mindset.
Charles De Gaulle knew this too. He knew Englnd had a different mindset.
But i think people really need to stop catastrophising, the left leaning media are like acting like manic, delusional, depressives.
The Guardian website has become a fucking joke.

The markets will stabilize, Scotland will not have a referendum for many years, Westminster will never allow it, Nicola Sturgeon SNP leader does not even have a majority government, and Scottish conservatives who have made a comeback recently will never vote to leave. Over a million Scots voted to leave the Europen Union too. Higher than expected.
i do agree were there a referendum tomorrow they would leave...but the relationship is so complex.
Even if they did leave it would make no difference to the U.K, it would not really effect the economyl

I didnt vote to leave, im upset we left, i had no problem being in the European Union. And i cannot be fucked for the anxiety inducing chaos we have to be subjecting to..this uncertain feeling. Im certain by December things will be ok.
But its such a leap in the dark.

The only thing im genuinely depressed about...is how powerful the conservatives will be now, and urgh Boris Johnson as PM.
David Cameron was an ineffectual blip in history. No one will remember him, he was weak forgettable.
The conservatives have not been this powerful since Margaret Thatcher.

[WorzelG]

The conservatives have not been this powerful since Margaret Thatcher.
And if the people who voted Leave think they will spread the wealth back to those needy areas like the EU did then they can think again

[Khrz]

The markets will stabilize[...]Im certain by December things will be ok.

Of course, UK won't turn into Greece just because it left the EU.
The problem isn't if the UK will make it through, but at what cost. Politically, socially, economically, your nation has entered a really thick fog for the foreseeable future. It's a bit early to be doomsaying maybe, but it's way too early to be optimistic as well. Saying that by December things will be okay doesn't mean much, that's not the worrisome time frame, it's not a matter of a few months. Things will be okay by December, the problem is will be things okay two years from now, and again, at what cost ?

Markets stabilize, they're gyros, they always do. The question is, where will they stabilize, at what level ?

[Exocet]

Of course, UK won't turn into Greece just because it left the EU.
The problem isn't if the UK will make it through, but at what cost. Politically, socially, economically, your nation has entered a really thick fog for the foreseeable future. It's a bit early to be doomsaying maybe, but it's way too early to be optimistic as well. Saying that by December things will be okay doesn't mean much, that's not the worrisome time frame, it's not a matter of a few months. Things will be okay by December, the problem is will be things okay two years from now, and again, at what cost ?

Markets stabilize, they're gyros, they always do. The question is, where will they stabilize, at what level ?

The pound has already rebounded, UK/US trade deal wont take long to rearrange, they have acctually all been very supportive post Brexit, Canada/Australia/Russia/China/India are all being co-operative. no one (other than Europe) is going to give the U.K too much of a hard time rearranging things.
Merkel says she wants things to go smoothly.
I know many in Europe DESPISE the British now because of this..i worry there are people in Brussells who will actively work against the U.K out of spite.
That cunt Martin Schulz comments worry me the most.

im more concerned with rising racism against minorities, and reconnecting with the working class who voted for this, thats something else, and Boris Johnson running the new U.K government. And the Labour party sorting itself out. I feel Jeremy Corbyn MUST go.

despite the harsh Auesterity measures George Osbornes financial cabinet are very capable, they did wonders for the U.K economy past 5 years, they are a strong bunch. Im not too worried.
Im certain London will retain its position too but this year will be rocky.

I dont know whats next for Europe though.

[botley]

http://www.versobooks.com/blogs/2733-on-the-hideous-whiteness-of-brexit-let-us-be-honest-about-our-past-and-our-present-if-we-truly-seek-to-dismantle-white-supremacy/

[slave2thewage]

Heh, Boris isn't running after all.

[onthewall2983]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_JsgUB6nYw

[slave2thewage]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_JsgUB6nYw
Well, that was painfully unfunny.

[onthewall2983]

Got to admit I jumped the gun on posting it. Sorry.

[DF118]

Aaaaand Farage is out. (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36702468)

[icklekitty]

aaaaand farage is out. (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36702468)

pu-sssy! Puu-sssy!

[aggroculture]

Brexit could have been a great opportunity for Labour to put the boot in to the Tories and call for a snap general election, running on a Remain in EU platform like Lib Dems are planning to do. Instead, they embarked on a totally bungled coup - they don't even have a challenger to Corbyn, and decided to implode instead.
Now the Tories look like they're steadying their ship: Theresa May, who might be the new PM, has said "Brexit is Brexit" and that there's no need for a general election until 2020, thus foreclosing chances this might be reversed and ensuring Tory continuity of power for the next four years. In other words Labour had an opening, and they blew it. So disheartening in this era of advancing far right wing.

[DF118]

pu-sssy! Puu-sssy!

He really is a weasel. At least now he can't do any more damage.

[Exocet]

Fuck Jeremy Corbyn...he never gave a shit about Europe. He has been Anti-EU for decades.
i have European friends who have lost jobs because of this vote.

He is the most pathetic leader of the Labour party of all time....and i think he is a liar. Worst of all.

I cant beleive people are still defending him...he did a shitty job on this EU referendum..even in parliment he has the presence of a boring georgraphy teacher. He has no charisma.
He appeals to British Communists

You have to be out of your fucking mind to think this man is going to win the 2020 election and appeal to 68 Million people

[DF118]

Aaaaaand Michael Gove's out.

[Exocet]

Two women fighting for the top..this is a first......in any democracy in the world.

Notice how the Guardian website has calmed down on the whole Brexit thing

They are both strong women, im indecisive.

[Vertigo]

Seems a pretty easy decision to me, voting LibDem and hoping for an early general...

[Your Name Here]

................

[aggroculture]

Boris Johnson for foreign minister and David Davis for Brexit minister. Theresa May wasn't joking around when she said Brexit means Brexit.
Labour, on the other hand, still joking around.

[Exocet]

Things are moving so fast on a daily basis. Everyone is struggling to catch up.

Theresa May has been Anti-Europe for years. She now has a really strong Anti Europe cabinet behind her.

I acctually think she is the best person for this Brexit process.

She is stronger than David Cameron.

[allegate]

He really is a weasel. At least now he can't do any more damage.

It's like an 80's horror movie: Never say stuff like that out loud.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/07/14/farage-heads-cleveland-rnc/

[WorzelG]

Things are moving so fast on a daily basis. Everyone is struggling to catch up.

Theresa May has been Anti-Europe for years. She now has a really strong Anti Europe cabinet behind her.

I acctually think she is the best person for this Brexit process.

She is stronger than David Cameron.
I thought she was pro Remain???

[Exocet]

I thought she was pro Remain???

She has been anti EU for years...like most of the conservative party.
She only switched to remain because it was the status quo of the time.
i doubt she really believed it
She is adamant Brexit means Brexit.


the conservative party at its core is deeply anti-EU

[Vertigo]

As is Jeremy Corbyn...

[Sutekh]

corbyn didnt pull his weight but the ball was already rolling in the brexit direction due to labour's abandonement of the working classes and their concerns.

milliband lost scotland and lost the north east, the effete wealthy son of a full on marxist philosopher was a bigger factor than a guy who's been leader for about a year and already managed to hustle up half a million new supporters

new labour/blairites do NOT have a strategy other than muddle along into oblivion as they have been doing since Blair left. Corbyn has the ability to drum up support and crucially has always been critical of the eu - exactly like the voters who have deserted labour

they think someone like owen smith can win back the brexiting working class? a guy who basically insults both their judgement and their voice by calling for a second referendum?

I am frankly horrified at the fact brexit has happened but it is time to stop compromising and being a bunch of pussies about this, politics is heading towards the radical and populist, and corbyn is the only one who ticks the boxes.

he is not perfect but neither is he standing in anyone's way, until the plp/progress/middle class hand wringing tosspots can produce a leadership candidate who actually stands a chance, it is time to shut up, get behind the leader and mount an opposition to the sociopathic ideologists in the cabinet!

[Exocet]

corbyn didnt pull his weight but the ball was already rolling in the brexit direction due to labour's abandonement of the working classes and their concerns.

milliband lost scotland and lost the north east, the effete wealthy son of a full on marxist philosopher was a bigger factor than a guy who's been leader for about a year and already managed to hustle up half a million new supporters

new labour/blairites do NOT have a strategy other than muddle along into oblivion as they have been doing since Blair left. Corbyn has the ability to drum up support and crucially has always been critical of the eu - exactly like the voters who have deserted labour

they think someone like owen smith can win back the brexiting working class? a guy who basically insults both their judgement and their voice by calling for a second referendum?

I am frankly horrified at the fact brexit has happened but it is time to stop compromising and being a bunch of pussies about this, politics is heading towards the radical and populist, and corbyn is the only one who ticks the boxes.

he is not perfect but neither is he standing in anyone's way, until the plp/progress/middle class hand wringing tosspots can produce a leadership candidate who actually stands a chance, it is time to shut up, get behind the leader and mount an opposition to the sociopathic ideologists in the cabinet!


I bet you 1 Trillion he will not win the 2020 election, i dont dislike him, i just dont think he is the right person to at the moment to lead the opposition.
He may change things, but he wont ever be elected.
Saying things like he would not shoot to kill Isis terrorists...shit like that...its not going to go down well.
I think he is distancing himself from the working class more than anything, 500.000 new labour members means jack shit, you need 12 Million votes to win an election.

I dont even see him being a Bernie Sanders type catalyst, Democratic socialism is new to America...we have heard this shit before from Michael Foot in the 1983 election look how that went.
I look at Jeremy Corbyn i just see Britain in 1976 or 1977 just the worst years.....

[aggroculture]

A little tired of these Blairites still attacking Corbyn when he's just won the leadership again with a landslide.
Deselect yourselves and go form a Neoliberal party or something.

[Vertigo]

I can't believe how many people still believe in him after barely showing up for the Brexit campaign. Two-faced twat.

[aggroculture]

The Brexit campaign was not his fight to win or lose.
But yeah, maybe Labour should have simply said: this referendum is nothing to do with us, we're not going to be a part of it one way or the other. It was stupid Cameron's battle, no reason at all why Corbyn should have to take the fall for it, whether he campaigned half-heartedly or not.

[WorzelG]

I'm not convinced the extra party members Corbyn has drummed up are from the marginalised working classes though. Labour need to get their act together though as there doesn't seem to be any opposition to the Tories now and we need one.

I'm still pissed off about Brexit though, I think Corbyn wanted Brexit which is why he was so crap about the campain and i'm never going to like or get behind any pro-brexit politician, labour or otherwise

[Exocet]

A little tired of these Blairites still attacking Corbyn when he's just won the leadership again with a landslide.
Deselect yourselves and go form a Neoliberal party or something.

Anyone who disagrees with Corbyn is smeared and labelled a 'Blair-ite'...its narrow minded and ignorant...this type of attitude is destroying labour.
Corbyns currently has the worst polling in the history of the labour party...the current team seems deluded and arrogant.
Its important the UK has a strong opposition

[aggroculture]

No, what is destroying Labour is the faction that won't accept Corbyn's twice elected leadership, and keeps trying to overthrow him or undermine him, but without having a plan or viable candidate to do so. If you can't work with Corbyn and won't accept him as your leader, then you are betraying the will of the majority of the party, and you should leave.

Give Corbyn a shot at a general election: if he loses, then he will step down. Trying to undermine him from the inside before that point is nothing but a massive favor to the Tories. Labour should have called for a general election right after Brexit, but were instead distracted by an internal, and now failed, attempt to unseat Corbyn.

Also, the left needs to be left: a middle of the road, neoliberal opposition is no opposition at all, and Ed Miliband learned that the hard way.

[slave2thewage]

Jesus, that Amber Rudd woman is awful.

[Sutekh]

The whole cabinet is a shower of corrupt homophobic stinkers

I am astounded liam Fox has been given a job, given the nature of his dismissal from the previous cabinet

Jeremy hunt is obviously a fall guy for the gutting of the NHS

Hammond is just May' s proxy, very little merit of his own

Boris. Foreign sec. The actual fuck?

It's terrible

Still, on the bright side the wheels are coming off ukip, their entire leadership slate is smorgasbord of cartoon villainy. Suzanne Evans is such a pompous, repellent person. If anyone likes her then they are an arsehole or totally blind. I vote labour but I can't stand diane abbott

On that note, why the fuck is she shadow home sec. Why is Jess Phillips saying men shouldn't be allowed to stand as MPs? Both the left and right of labour are in disarray. The lib dems are showing signs of green shoots but they still have an uncharismatic leader with dodgy religious beliefs

Strap in guys, it's going to be a long winter

[Khrz]

Also, the left needs to be left: a middle of the road, neoliberal opposition is no opposition at all, and Ed Miliband learned that the hard way.

Oh god so much this, everywhere.
When the people look at the left and see a moderately more social-oriented right, while still being discontent with the state of things, how can anyone expect them to trust any party and not just go vote for those whose sole (alleged) quality is being nothing like the others ?

I've seen the guys who'll vote far right next round. There's a handful of oldschool racists and traditionalists, sure, but more and more they are joined by leftists who just don't recognize anything in the political landscape anymore. There's no chance they'd vote for the left since they acknowledge that its become the right (but with more happy thoughts).

I understand that trying to go back to the old socialism-inspired left in the current economical and political climate is fundamentally shooting yourself in the foot, but maybe it's the sign that you need to reinvent that shit, rather than shift to the right hoping the people will still be fooled by your little logo and your ancient rhetoric. They're not, and they've been saying it for a while now, and every time the talking heads and politics brush it off as a few malcontents.

You have no idea how malcontent they are, and they're perfectly okay with hijacking the car and ram it into a tree in the hopes that they can deal with that shit once it's in pieces.

[sentient]

haha! beautiful! (https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/794474117156237312)

[Dra508]

Can we change the title of this thread to Europe and the US lurch to the Right?

Heard today that the French Right don't like Trump. Too right for ya'll?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Exocet]

No, what is destroying Labour is the faction that won't accept Corbyn's twice elected leadership, and keeps trying to overthrow him or undermine him, but without having a plan or viable candidate to do so. If you can't work with Corbyn and won't accept him as your leader, then you are betraying the will of the majority of the party, and you should leave.

Give Corbyn a shot at a general election: if he loses, then he will step down. Trying to undermine him from the inside before that point is nothing but a massive favor to the Tories. Labour should have called for a general election right after Brexit, but were instead distracted by an internal, and now failed, attempt to unseat Corbyn.

Also, the left needs to be left: a middle of the road, neoliberal opposition is no opposition at all, and Ed Miliband learned that the hard way.

The main reason behind Brexit was immigration...Corbyn encourages immigration...he is stubborn so will never sway his mind...he is die hard socialist... the UK in general is moving away from socialism....
He is also a pacifist..he is soft on terror...the UK has a huge terror threat...people want to feel safe...
Our economy is volatile post Brexit...nobody trusts him with the economy....France is a wonderful example of a weak..clumsy socialist government in charge..he displays no leadership qualities.
He is 70 years old has no charisma...only appeals to a small minority.

In 2020 there will be nearly 70 Million in the UK...he needs to win around 20 million votes....LOL!!!

[mfte]

With the growing of more right leaning sentiments and nationalism she is afraid of losing the election

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/06/world/europe/merkel-calls-for-ban-on-full-face-veils-in-germany.html

[telee.kom]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/06/world/europe/merkel-calls-for-ban-on-full-face-veils-in-germany.html

I'm hoping this will set up a trend throughout Europe. Whether it is because of the election or not, this is definitely a good thing

[Sutekh]

What is the point in banning veils... I'm not a massive fan but attacking them like this won't help with anti western radicalism amongst Muslims. and if its women's rights you're concerned about, consider the fact that those forced to wear it (in my experience a small amount) will probably be let out of the house less.

That's also not taking into account the big logical error that is protecting women's autonomy by giving them a legally enforced dress code

Seriously what is the plan here? what good would it do

[Sutekh]

Can we change the title of this thread to Europe and the US lurch to the Right?

Heard today that the French Right don't like Trump. Too right for ya'll?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Lol... more likely he is too cosy with Israel, the French right are pretty anti semitic compared to the UK or USA

I'm actually quite amazed at how much support he has from American white nationalists despite that. Any port in a storm(front) I guess...

[Khrz]

Lol... more likely he is too cosy with Israel, the French right are pretty anti semitic compared to the UK or USA


Having qualms about Israeli policies isn't the same as being antisemitic. Don't confuse zionism and semitism, despite the overlap they're not one and the same. Our countries just don't have the same history and diplomatic relations with Israel. When it comes to *actual* antisemitism, I wonder what made you say that? I don't remember anything of the sort coming from the "regular" right wing?

And of course Trump is too right. The US and French right have nothing in common, it's not even comparable, the issues and positions are completely different. If anything the French right as a whole has more in common with the Obama kind of left. Remember that it's a traditional right wing president who told Bush they wouldn't align with him on the war in Iraq, for instance.
Though that kind of right, Gaullism, is losing its momentum, it remains the fundamental blueprint for conservatism in France.

Saying right and left and comparing country alignments is extremely deceptive. Sometimes the policies and preoccupations are too wildly different to draw broad parallels.

If anything, Trump has a lot more in common with our far right. First of all they're both misconceived as having right-leaning voters behind them, while their supporters are much more diverse than that, and don't really care about policies. They mostly want the rest to fuck off and shut up, they're tired of the same old game, of having the same narrative imposed on them, and want to fuck it up.
As such they're a very diverse base, from white to blue collar, from traditionalists to anarchists, from old French families to second generation immigrants. They're not in it to play the game, they don't believe in it. Whether their candidate succeeds or doesn't is mostly a moot point, long as they manage to break the system a little bit along the way.

Some are racists, isolationist, homophobes, xenophobes and what have you, sure. Their common ground though, is disillusionment. The system has failed them, society has advanced and left them behind, the parties they believed in never delivered. They're not even allowed to speak out loud anymore, because what they have to say isn't nice and acceptable.

They're not in to win, they're in for the chance to see the rest lose a little bit.

[Dra508]

Lol... more likely he is too cosy with Israel, the French right are pretty anti semitic compared to the UK or USA

I'm actually quite amazed at how much support he has from American white nationalists despite that. Any port in a storm(front) I guess...We have this whole evangelical thing where you can hate Jews, but gotta keep Israel a state because, you know, end times. :|

[Sutekh]

Having qualms about Israeli policies isn't the same as being antisemitic. Don't confuse zionism and semitism, despite the overlap they're not one and the same. Our countries just don't have the same history and diplomatic relations with Israel. When it comes to *actual* antisemitism, I wonder what made you say that? I don't remember anything of the sort coming from the "regular" right wing?



There's some confusion here - Im not conflating criticism of Israel with anti semitism, I'm saying anti semites don't like people who support Israel.

Some non anti semites don't like people who support Israel, but that's a different thing, I'm purely talking about why members of the far right or right might not like trump

As for anti Semitism in France, I can only compare it to the uk and Ireland, where it is basically non existent. In France I've seen cartoons in news stands with Jewish caricatures straight out of 30s Germany, and generally speaking a lot more stereotyping and horseplay regarding Jewish people. Also no offence but you have a whole generation of Nazi collaborators who may be dying out but nonetheless are there and raised the boomers. Someone like Le Pen senior doesn't do as well as he did in a country without a problem - and the FN wouldn't have been able to rebrand itself so well unless there was some kind of sympathy. In the uk the antisemitic far right parties NF and BNP could never shed that toxic legacy - it took a clean break and the founding of UKIP for Brits to grant them any kind of electoral success

None of this is to say that France is full of Jew haters or that trumps support for Israel is the sole or biggest reason he's not too popular, but it all factors in. As you say, there are big differences

[Khrz]

No, yeah I'm aware of that, but you mentioned the right wing specifically, that's where I'm lost. I don't remember one comment or policy pointing towards antisemitism coming from the right wing party ?

Also, no offense taken : nazi collaborators are merely people who happened to find their place and brethren under nazi occupation. What I mean by that is that I'm pretty sure that just because other countries didn't have the "opportunity" to have those doesn't mean they don't have the very same kind of people among their population, just a bit more discreetly.

[Sutekh]

I'm talking about the man in the street and French culture rather than politicians, sorry I should have made that more clear

[Exocet]

At this exact point, i dont think Marine Le Pen will win.
However in 2015 a year ago today i never thought Donald Trump would win....i didnt think Brexit would happen...

So she could win...France is way more fucked up than the UK or US in 2016...but im really not sure...

However....Geert Wilders will win in the Netherlands......the Netherlands, the most liberal progressive country on earth....turns far right
They always broke new ground????

[Khrz]

At this exact point, i dont think Marine Le Pen will win... So she could win...but im really not sure...

Oh boy, am I glad you cleared that out.

[icklekitty]

My ears are pointing towards this election as the anglophone countries are getting all "end of days".

I'm reassured a little that France has the two-round system; I currently presume that if FN becomes one of the top two, the rest of the country will rally behind the other party. I think there is an important distinction between "conservative" and "right wing"; the American democrats are generally about as right wing as your average right-centre European party. I think they each have to be this way given their local political climates. When someone says "conservative" I tend to think more restrained/demure than overtly right wing.

I'll be in France on the first election weekend (thanks Placebo) so I look forward (sort of) to experiencing it live.

[Exocet]

French election this year is the most important election in the world this year....

I never normally pay attention to French elections...but my partner is French and also..... the Geopolitical ramifications of this election will be massive. If France votes Marine LePen = End of European Union.

The fact that Britain and the United States both went against what the establishment wanted....is one thing.

But France is in a much more vulnerable place than either Britain or the United States were. Economically, Socially,Financially etc.

And also France is way more nationalistic than the UK.


So although it looks unlikely LePen will not win you have to take in these factors...the guy she is up against is a boring establishment type....France is deeply Socialist...he wants to eradicate socialism from France...he is seen as a Margaret Thatcher type.

French people are bored of the OLD establishment which dominated France...

So although the election works against LePen like the UK and US votes did the circumstances work in her favour...more than the UK or US

Also the UK is doing fine Post Brexit....support for Scottish Independence has gone down..our economy is fine the doom mongers look pathetic...there is a lot going for her.

The reality is in 2017..France is Germanys bitch...France used to be such a proud country...what happened.

[baudolino]

France has never been Germany's bitch. With the exception of the vichy regime. Also: Brexit didn't even happen yet, and you have the pretentious nerve to judge its outcome yet? boy. i don't even know where to begin.

and btw: the term "establishment" has already become as hollow as the skulls of those who use it in favour of their yet seemingly (though not truly) unestablished populists.

Though you are right that LePen would be the end of the EU. With mutual "open" depts between Russia and France. scary as hell.

[miss k bee]

French election this year is the most important election in the world this year....

I never normally pay attention to French elections...but my partner is French and also..... the Geopolitical ramifications of this election will be massive. If France votes Marine LePen = End of European Union.

The fact that Britain and the United States both went against what the establishment wanted....is one thing.

But France is in a much more vulnerable place than either Britain or the United States were. Economically, Socially,Financially etc.

And also France is way more nationalistic than the UK.


So although it looks unlikely LePen will not win you have to take in these factors...the guy she is up against is a boring establishment type....France is deeply Socialist...he wants to eradicate socialism from France...he is seen as a Margaret Thatcher type.

French people are bored of the OLD establishment which dominated France...

So although the election works against LePen like the UK and US votes did the circumstances work in her favour...more than the UK or US

Also the UK is doing fine Post Brexit....support for Scottish Independence has gone down..our economy is fine the doom mongers look pathetic...there is a lot going for her.

The reality is in 2017..France is Germanys bitch...France used to be such a proud country...what happened.


Post Brexit?? Has Article 50 been triggered?? No.

[Exocet]

France has never been Germany's bitch. With the exception of the vichy regime. Also: Brexit didn't even happen yet, and you have the pretentious nerve to judge its outcome yet? boy. i don't even know where to begin.

and btw: the term "establishment" has already become as hollow as the skulls of those who use it in favour of their yet seemingly (though not truly) unestablished populists.

Though you are right that LePen would be the end of the EU. With mutual "open" depts between Russia and France. scary as hell.


Germanys bitch is a stupid comment, dont want to imply that France is weak at all, however its an inconvenient truth, and very clear to everyone that Germany is more or less is the driving seat when it comes to the Eurozone or European Union affairs...has the strongest economy by far. Yeilds the most influence on the other member states, World leaders go to Germany when it comes to European Union. France is seen as in Germanys shadow.
Its not Frances fault, and it did not used to be like this but after Germany reunified the power structure changed.
I just find it odd France is very protective of its identiy, i thought they would leave before the UK.
I despise Trump but what he said about Europe, he was merely saying what everybody refuses to utter.

With regards to Brexit...everyone said there would be a massive recession if we left, in the immediate aftermath of the vote, the banks would move, the union would fall apart, investment would stop....blah blah blah.....none of this has happened, certain papers keep saying doom is coming next week, it never comes....people forget they said the EXACT same thing when the UK refused to join the Eurozone back in 2001....i voted remain, but im feeling more positive we left now. I dont trust the people saying will will fall off a cliff after we trigger article 50 anymore.
And if it stays like this...then LePen can use this to sway voters.

With regards to establishment...virtually every media organisation, financial institution and most in government was against Brexit and Trump...people who hold a lot of power in a society.
And they were flabbergasted they lost.

[Sutekh]

Doom hasn't come because the process hasn't really begun yet, but bad things have happened - I don't know what industry you work in but the site where I work is a ghost town now because Euro investors have fled and eu custom is down - 7 businesses have contracted or folded due to this.

Speaking of establishment media, I agree with your assessment but it is only part of the picture... I don't recall any uk papers at all making great play of the 122 billion (yep) tax black hole that May' s current strategem will create... really does make the (fictional) 350 million seem insignificant

[onthewall2983]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2uiWMGXgAAybTa.jpg:large

[icklekitty]

OMG, shrink that picture!!

Unfortunately I don't think it means he'll be leaving the country.

[Demogorgon]

surprised no one has mentioned it yet; MP's voted to follow through with Brexit, despite a sizeable opposition by Labour. I don't have a link handy, unfortunately.

[Sutekh]

Well they had to really, it's totally pointless to oppose it. I voted remain but I have no idea how they could possibly stop it.

The interesting thing is the Labour leader - popular with and kept in power by the party membership - opted to push ahead, despite the membership being largely remain, and the MPs - voted in by constituents who largely voted to leave - are in many cases pushing to remain

What a mess! If UKIP weren't such a seedy bunch of jokers, I would be worried about a trump/le pen scenario unfolding

[icklekitty]

The whitepaper has a sizeable chunk of lies in it too

[WorzelG]

I'm getting really pissed off with self appointed leave spokespeople saying that they always knew leaving the single market would be the outcome and the campaigns made it clear. NO THEY FUCKING DIDNT. The message from Leave was always about getting a Norway type of deal, even Farage was saying this. The entire Leave campaign was having cake and eating it too. The remain campaign warned this as a possibility. There is no mandate for a hard Brexit out of the single market

[Sutekh]

On a similar note I am annoyed with how much coverage UKIP get generally... they are nothing. We have a 40 million plus electorate and they got just under 4 million votes... 20 million ish voted brexit iirc... to me this says nobody really has any faith in UKIP

Ok 4 million is a fair chunk, but when it is so evenly spread that it only yields a single MP, it does feel like the village idiot in every single village, rather than a mass movement

Also Nuttall's New beard, flat cap and jacket ensemble is hilariously contrived.

I wish the Tories and Labour would just get their act together

[WorzelG]

On a similar note I am annoyed with how much coverage UKIP get generally... they are nothing. We have a 40 million plus electorate and they got just under 4 million votes... 20 million ish voted brexit iirc... to me this says nobody really has any faith in UKIP

Ok 4 million is a fair chunk, but when it is so evenly spread that it only yields a single MP, it does feel like the village idiot in every single village, rather than a mass movement

Also Nuttall's New beard, flat cap and jacket ensemble is hilariously contrived.

I wish the Tories and Labour would just get their act together

I find it hard to take Paul Nuttall seriously because he looks so much like Edward Hitler. I expect him to engage in some comedy figets with Farage

[Exocet]

On a similar note I am annoyed with how much coverage UKIP get generally... they are nothing. We have a 40 million plus electorate and they got just under 4 million votes... 20 million ish voted brexit iirc... to me this says nobody really has any faith in UKIP

Ok 4 million is a fair chunk, but when it is so evenly spread that it only yields a single MP, it does feel like the village idiot in every single village, rather than a mass movement

Also Nuttall's New beard, flat cap and jacket ensemble is hilariously contrived.

I wish the Tories and Labour would just get their act together

Corbyn is on average around 16 Points behind in the polls to Theresa May, bear in mind polls always overestimate support for Labour and the Left in general, so the gap is wider.
i read somewhere that with people over the age of 60 in a recent poll Corbyn was 57 points behind Theresa May. Been nothing like it for nearly a century.

So there is obviously going to be a void....people will either turn to Liberal Democrats or UKIP, people are taking them seriously, they will probably do much better in the next election..unless something catastrophic happens...May will hold onto PM..

With UKIP maybe people have been looking across the pond and seeing the whole Trump thing, i think its the directness of Farage and UKIP that might be a gaining factor. I dont think it will be enough to win here as the culture situation is different in many ways.

[cashpiles (closed)]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2uiWMGXgAAybTa.jpg:large

ANAL CYST? Is this a real news story?

[Sutekh]

Lol it is yeah, I remember seeing it

That's what happens when you have unpaid, hungover interns at the controls ;)

[Jinsai]

Brexit is a go (http://www.wsj.com/video/brexit-gets-approval-in-uk-parliament/7BEF551E-8C89-452E-B6B1-116DE3E2FE4A.html?mod=e2tw)

[Exocet]

What does everyone think about Le pen..right now in March 2017 i dont think she will win...

But this is exactly how i felt about Donald Trump and Brexit.....

Its really hard to tell...

Why do i feel its more likely lepen will win after Geert Wilders lost...urgh confusing

[Jinsai]

What does everyone think about Le pen..right now in March 2017 i dont think she will win...

But this is exactly how i felt about Donald Trump and Brexit.....

Its really hard to tell...

Why do i feel its more likely lepen will win after Geert Wilders lost...urgh confusing

Let's break this streak of unimaginably bad public decisions then? Please?

[icklekitty]

France has a two round voting system which is what I'm hinging my hopes on for her not winning. If it were a system like the UK or USA I'd be very pessimistic indeed.

[Exocet]

France has a two round voting system which is what I'm hinging my hopes on for her not winning. If it were a system like the UK or USA I'd be very pessimistic indeed.

This is what i dont get how does the two round voting system make any difference??

If for example the US did have a two round voting system...it would have been Trump and Clinton...why would Trump have not won the second time??

The other candidate Macron is coming across a bit empty..and vague and dull ...he is basically a French Tony Blair..but younger..says all the right things ..but he is not really saying anything new..all bit flat..

He is very much a centrist...sort of like Hillary.. centrism is dying in Europe...
it may be a miscalculation....

[icklekitty]

I get the feeling that America is always going ot be a two-party race though; there's no one "other candidate" in France. And it was Republican Vs Democrat, not someone vs far right nationalists. I have the feeling that if the second round is LePen vs someone else, the majority of French people would rather vote for the other person than LePen (and I don't really see some wacky left winger being that second person) - I don't think it's guaranteed that this will happen, but the system seems to guide people towards making a better (as in, who they'd be happier with) choice. I could see the two-round system working positively in the UK; whether or not our stupid Ward system would still get in the way of that is an issue in itself; in 2015 my vote went to "whoever is most likely to get the Tories out of my ward", which isn't a great basis for a vote.

[GulDukat]

Here is an article of the French election. https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftrib.al%2FbXhg4W6&h=ATPaba1pqr15_r89k_PblyxKeHOKGSUvHKNnFwSgbqKOyGaq _zc0dI_ezw4gzbQBqnDvzVFCIFUchTyvwua5HEYugzv9J8C5C7 uM9Lk2aefmylcPM4xD2yYspyKQtcEs3SpLnDu8zToKrzc9&enc=AZMd09tSl2baz3-y6Rz0eUdQ_hbLfoz0WPt31Uxmcd7_vxxYx0himJB7ZM7y1SypD iv07Xx2XVKWIj6Y1mAcIhcDpPpRk5uCV2uz7ZW4UfbLwpQ0l4n tjnDBXPyK-3--3UXfKj6LDEu7odaWTD0CPZB4bADbI36l7YxE11WAHNhk08uD3J zMH8x7qPAoPg50R0A&s=1

[Louie_Cypher]

i tend to find American's Americentric i tend to notice this more when I travel even in terms of interstate all news seems to geared to local events local weather events and crime as the old joke goes "what do you think of the ignorance and apathy in America " i don't know and I don't care". when asking people about events in France Turkey or even Venezuela, if it doesn't directly effect them they them neither know or care this is a dangerous attitude that will lead to much grief in the long run my hope is that as a nation we become more aware and begin to restore critical thinking long game processing and general long term effect awareness before it's too late
-Louie

[Jinsai]

can anyone condense what the implications of this are leaning towards? I understand that they have more than one stage in close races, but what happens if Le Pen loses this round (which it looks like, barely) and then wins the next? Do the rounds just extend until one candidate accumulates more than 50%?

Either way, this is scary close...

[Alexandros]

can anyone condense what the implications of this are leaning towards? I understand that they have more than one stage in close races, but what happens if Le Pen loses this round (which it looks like, barely) and then wins the next? Do the rounds just extend until one candidate accumulates more than 50%?

Either way, this is scary close...

If somebody was able to gather an absolute majority then it would be over from the first round, otherwise the two most voted candidates proceed to the second round. There it is settled for good, since one will obviously get more than 50% of the (valid) votes. So yeah, if Le Pen wins next round, it's over and she's the president. *shudder* But I don't think that's likely. Le Pen is still way too extreme for France and she won't be getting many of the other candidates' voters. Exit polls currently show a 62%-38% win for Macron in the second round. I know, I know, people have been getting increasingly wary of polling, but I'm inclined to trust this one. It's still a very high percentage for Front Nationale though, considering last time they went to the second round in 2002, they only got about 18%.

[botley]

This is why I only support ranked ballots with instant/immediate runoffs: two weeks until the final decision is enough time for all manner of bullshit to drastically sway the results.

[Jinsai]

This is why I only support ranked ballots with instant/immediate runoffs: two weeks until the final decision is enough time for all manner of bullshit to drastically sway the results.

On another hand, it's also enough time for people to sober up and realize "holy shit, that lunatic might actually win! Time to stop fucking around and actually get out there and vote, because that would suck."

I think a lot of Americans right now can identify with that sort of thing...

[icklekitty]

Macron is predicted 60%; I am optimistic for the "oh shit, not her!" reaction.

RE: "France had another terror attack on the eve of the vote". I noted that the instant knee-jerk reaction came from Anglophones quoting Sky/Fox, while flipping over to Liberation/Le Monde reported that it's just that one guy (with a record) shot a police man. Which is just a regular Thursday (three days before the vote btw) in America.



I am less optimistic about what might happen with the UK snap election. I think all the not-Tories need to stop fighting with each other and develop a plan.

[WorzelG]

I am less optimistic about what might happen with the UK snap election. I think all the not-Tories need to stop fighting with each other and develop a plan.
If we can't stop Brexit my main desire is to have someone achieve a much softer Brexit which includes single market access and free movement of people but I just can't see Jeremy Corbyn negotiating this. I think he's pro Brexit so I will vote Lib Dem I think

[icklekitty]

If we can't stop Brexit my main desire is to have someone achieve a much softer Brexit which includes single market access and free movement of people but I just can't see Jeremy Corbyn negotiating this. I think he's pro Brexit so I will vote Lib Dem I think

Because of our shitty voting system I'm going to vote for whoever has a higher chance of ousting the Tories in my constituency, which is probably Labour looking at the last few elections.

[implanted_microchip]

you poor bastards. celebrating your joy because you confuse enjoyment in Le Pen losing with enjoyment in "winning" an establishment banker as your leader :/
It's amazing you get wifi under that bridge since you're such a fucking troll

[Louie_Cypher]

read a headline in a french magazine said "France don't trump yourself"made me smile
-Louie

[Exocet]

I dont think there is much enthusiasm for Macron...huge amount abstained from voting...most can see he is a tool. Not much will change. Its basically more of the same. People just see it as the least-worst-option.
I dont see anything in him that is much different to the current leader Francoise Hollande.
He wont dare question the EU on anything, despite the fact there are gaping holes in the system.

Its just he was up against Marine Le-Pen...the Front National has such a toxic legacy in France....
Also she was NO Donald Trump terrible public speaker...she had none of Trumps machevillian ability to draw people in....

Also i cant imagine Nigel Farage from UKIP winning an election in the UK either...

Had it been someone of the rightwing without out the National Front baggage i reckon they could have won..i thought Francis Fillon was going to win..but the corruption scandal brought him down.

[implanted_microchip]

More of the same vs. highly-corrosive and willfully destructive bigotry-promoting fascism-fetishizing is a pretty clear fight. Whine about a lack of further progress when you don't have somebody trying to blow it all up. A sense of perspective goes a long way and this idea that people shouldn't be thrilled that someone who isn't a racist fuckhead isn't going to be in a charge of a major first world nation when their main opponent claimed that Jews shouldn't be allowed to weare yamulkes in public is babyish and stupid. It makes people seem like smug and pseudointellectual downtalkers rather than people having a conversation.

To say "It's great that Le Pen has been defeated and I hope that in the future competition is less between centrists and right-wing extremists and more between left-wing candidates and centrists" is reasonable. To act like everyone happy a centrist beat out a lunatic is somehow stupid or naive just makes you look like a tool.

[botley]

The turnout hasn't been this low in decades. I don't know if the official numbers exist yet, but I was seeing some estimates saying as far back as ~50 years.


It's amazing that everyone can see the recurring pattern of Russian interference and become outraged, but the pattern of the candidates that citizens are forced to choose between...? nah, its not a conspiracy. that's just "how it is" guys! Nevermind the fact that it occurs in different countries with different voting systems and different political landscapes...
The number I saw for the turnout in France is 74%; and since we're comparing global patterns against the USA, that is still 10% more French votes per capita than turned out for America's election of Obama in 2008 (which was the highest turnout in the USA for decades). Regarding your second point; this was the final round of a runoff ballot, where the options had already fallen away to the two front runners only. So the 'pattern' here that you hate is... what exactly? Having to choose?

[botley]

Primaries aren't comparable to a general runoff. The majority of French voters chose those two candidates over everyone else, and then chose between them. In that scenario, moderate status-quo centrism wins, and I'm not jumping for joy about it, but I totally understand why and it's not because banks rule everything.

[liquidcalm]

As we are still part of europe right now, the current exit polls point to a hung parliament in the UK.
A slight shudder to the left.. but I'm not getting my hopes up.

[botley]

Hung parliaments are my jam.

[liquidcalm]

Hey-oh! Well that was a turn up for the books! A well hung parliament.
While I should cite my sources other than Twitter, word on the street is there was a massive youth / under 25 turn out, and would you look at that, they don't like the Conservatives nor the idea of 5 more years...
In liberal/Labour terms, this was pretty much the best result they could hope for... Wonder what happens next? Don't want to get my hopes up again...

[WorzelG]

Hey-oh! Well that was a turn up for the books! A well hung parliament.
While I should cite my sources other than Twitter, word on the street is there was a massive youth / under 25 turn out, and would you look at that, they don't like the Conservatives nor the idea of 5 more years...
In liberal/Labour terms, this was pretty much the best result they could hope for... Wonder what happens next? Don't want to get my hopes up again...
In the meantime article 50 has been triggered, now we've already lost 3 months and the Tories will have another leadership contest, more dithering. Can't we just give up brexit as a bad job? I honestly don't think people gung ho for brexit realised how shit our politicians are.

Although UKIP no seats, hah so there is a bright side

[slave2thewage]

Coalition with the DUP. This is BAD.

[ChipRock]

Very much a day of ups and downs. Personally I'm thrilled to see how successful Labour and Corbyn have been, and I'm particularly happy that my home constituency has a Labour MP for the first time ever. No lurching to the right there!

But yes, a Tory deal with DUP is not a positive step. I was hoping there would be enough for a Labour / SNP / Lib Dem coalition, but I guess that's not happening now. I'm very much against 'Brexit' (ughh), but if it does have to happen I'd like to see sensible cross-party negotiations that can lead to a reasonably positive outcome. What are the chances of that though?

Great to see UKIP effectively finished, and interesting to see SNP losing out quite badly - I still don't know what happened there.

What I'm really happy about though is seeing the right wing press failing so miserably to get their side in a majority, despite huge amounts of scaremongering against Corbyn. Sadly we have to include the BBC in that, and not just Murdoch and friends. Maybe we'll see some lessons learned, even if we are still dealing with a difficult outcome. The stories of high turnouts across the country, with particular focus on the engagement of 18-25 year olds, is also very positive.

[Exocet]

I thought the weirdest thing about the results which not many have mentioned in the media was seeing the Conservatives resurrected in Scotland...best for them in Scotland since 1983.
This was unimaginable 10 years ago..a tory was seen as subhuman..justvshows the lengths people are willing to go to avoid a second referendum. SNP would do so much better. If they stopped focusing on independence and only on devolved power.
i can see why Labour gained ground...although i think Corbyns vision is too utopian and cant stand his team around him he is 100 percent genuine and really got people excited...
i was amazed at how Robotic and boring and uninspiring Theresa May was...she was a worse campaigner than Hillary Clinton.

[liquidcalm]

yup... saw that coalition happening once the last results were coming in. Dreadful how they cling in there by jumping into bed with some of the most hateful MPs. now at the very least, the opposition is in a position to oppose, its not great, but it doesn't take much for this government to fail at pushing bills, now if only that ol proportional representation thing had come in... Labour, LD, SNP, PC together outnumber the right wing parties in terms of votes, thats something to be proud of.

[aggroculture]

I guess this could have gone a lot worse. May has hobbled herself unnecessarily, and Labour has seen a surge of support.
Makes me think of Bernie Sanders a bit: popular passion, a surge of enthusiasm, ultimately lost, conservatives still in power.
Conservatives still have a majority, they are still the biggest party in the UK by 57 seats. People are still voting to the right in these times of economic turbulence.

[mfte]

ugh. This makes me sad.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/11/13/how-poland-became-a-breeding-ground-for-europes-far-right/?utm_term=.c95d77f0f5b5

[Exocet]

France has been under a state of emergency for 2 years, there are men with scary machine guns outside every iconic Paris tourist spot, the UK is spending billions on its security apparatus because it has to try and save lives, this money could be going to poor people.
Most of the UK and Frances multiculturalism is good but there are problems Poland does not want to deal with the problems,

Poland is a very homogenous society all of Eastern Europe is, Joseph Stalin forcefully deported and rearranged Eastern Europe among ethnic lines, Poland is 98 percent Polish, Hungary is 98 percent Hungarian

its totally different to the western mindset, Poland adores Western Europe and the UK, and France but cannot understand its tolerance for people who want to kill them, remember Poland was under both Nazi and Soviet occupation for 50 years, millions died, they hate totalitrainism of any form.
West Europe Is very different from Eastern Europe

[mfte]

France has been under a state of emergency for 2 years, there are men with scary machine guns outside every iconic Paris tourist spot, the UK is spending billions on its security apparatus because it has to try and save lives, this money could be going to poor people.
Most of the UK and Frances multiculturalism is good but there are problems Poland does not want to deal with the problems,

Poland is a very homogenous society all of Eastern Europe is, Joseph Stalin forcefully deported and rearranged Eastern Europe among ethnic lines, Poland is 98 percent Polish, Hungary is 98 percent Hungarian

its totally different to the western mindset, Poland adores Western Europe and the UK, and France but cannot understand its tolerance for people who want to kill them, remember Poland was under both Nazi and Soviet occupation for 50 years, millions died, they hate totalitrainism of any form.
West Europe Is very different from Eastern Europe

I am originally from Poland and still have many family and friends there. I understand the culture and the current situation. The culture there is totally homogenized and its history makes a lot of people very resistant to anything that might be viewed as an "invading" force... whether the threat is rational or not. This is nothing new. What is a huge problem there right now is the ruling government who can only be described as Trump like but even more so. They are very much playing on the fears of people when it comes to open borders, Russia, and constantly label their opponents as traitors (this includes cyclists and vegetarians). They have taken over the nation's news outlets and the news hour is an incredible example of propaganda. My biggest gripe is what they are doing to the country and how much damage they can still do with their remaining 2-3 years (Although chances of their re election is high). One of those things includes that they do not directly address these far right factions while blatantly taking action against the opposition of the far right which also happens to be their opposition... Although they did block Richard Spencer from entering the country.

[Exocet]

I am originally from Poland and still have many family and friends there. I understand the culture and the current situation. The culture there is totally homogenized and its history makes a lot of people very resistant to anything that might be viewed as an "invading" force... whether the threat is rational or not. This is nothing new. What is a huge problem there right now is the ruling government who can only be described as Trump like but even more so. They are very much playing on the fears of people when it comes to open borders, Russia, and constantly label their opponents as traitors (this includes cyclists and vegetarians). They have taken over the nation's news outlets and the news hour is an incredible example of propaganda. My biggest gripe is what they are doing to the country and how much damage they can still do with their remaining 2-3 years (Although chances of their re election is high). One of those things includes that they do not directly address these far right factions while blatantly taking action against the opposition of the far right which also happens to be their opposition... Although they did block Richard Spencer from entering the country.

I agree there is definitely stuff to worry about the Polish government, its not gone full authoritarian yet however its made a dramatic shift to the right, I think stuff like Trump and Brexit may have galvanized them.

I think they are starting to see the EU as an occupying force, its not just Poland its Hungary of course and Czech Republic, Baltic states, feel like the EU is trying to impose something on them they don't want, the EU did not fully understand the rather big cultural differences when they joined in 2004, i think its great they joined the EU, but there is definetly a growing East West divide in the EU.

[Volband]

Our prime minister bashed the West once more a few days ago with some really strong words. I don't want to quote snippets out of context, you can probably find translations if you want to. Our minister of defence even quoted Donald Trump.

Anyway, it is extremely likely that they will win the election again next year by a large margin and that means a right government for at least 2022. No party could win three times in a row since the establishment of the Third Republic (1989). The left is a joke and they are in shambles. The biggest leftist party was already fading into obscurity when they put all their credibility in their agenda for preventing and later calling for demolishing the fence at our border and advocating the help of immigrants. An absolute disaster, as that fence will probably be the most well-received decision of this government's current term. As a leftist, you have like 5 or 6 alternatives to choose from, thus the end result being a bunch of votes going into the void. The left can't create a working coalition for nearly 8 years now to save their lives.

A more interesting thing is that our right wing government absolutely schooled the far right as well. During the immigrant-crisis, the far right tried their best to pull ahead with their hate-train, but they are absolute garbage politicians. Except their leader, who - seeing how being racist fucks does not work - tried to consolidate his party, basically mimicking our prime minister's. So now even the far right is being fractured, while the leader can't compete with Orbán. When our prime minister implies that you are homosexual through a joke, and states it as a fact that you are being a bitch (pretty much an exact translation; bitch as in servant) of Soros, and you can't make a good comeback... Yeah, then you are doomed.

The propaganda machine is in "can't stop, won't stop" mode for like 3 years now. Anti-Soros advertisements and questionnaires are plastered EVERYWHERE, absolutely insufferable. But it works, because if you would try to look at the West for help or guidance, all you see are headless chickens. What's happening here is the failure of the EU.

Also, the fucked up peace-treaties after WW2 pretty much made Central- and Eastern-Europe extremely prone to right wing influence. This area's suffering from nationalism related problems has been historic, but when you blindly chop up countries with an "it'll do" mentality, you are just asking for trouble down the line.

[Sutekh]

Coalition with the DUP. This is BAD.

Not just bad, a threat to national security - whitehall has to be an impartial broker in the good Friday agreement. How can it fulfil that role when it's in coalition with one side and bunging them money?

Accentuate the positive - it's another crack in the Tory edifice

[Volband]

The Hungarian elections are over. People predicted that Fidesz can bleed, but only if many people will show up to cast their votes, so we had a never to be seen campaign, which boiled down to "just vote". We almost broke a record in attendance rate, so people from the opposition were opening champagnes. The result? Fidesz demolished everyone and they've regained their 2/3 in the parliament, which they had lost 3 years ago.

Heads are rolling right now from the opposition. 4 years too late, but hey, at least it's happening.

[thevoid99]

Britain's home secretary Amber Rudd resigns over immigration scandal: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/home-secretary-amber-rudd-uk-immigration-scandal-mistreatment-resigns-windrush-1.4640955

[GulDukat]

Looks like some Italians feel nostalgic for Mussolini:

https://qz.com/993672/a-controversial-museum-is-forcing-italy-to-talk-about-its-fascist-past/

He has a pretty nice shrine were he is entombed. I am sort of surprised that there is this revisionist history for that monster.

[thevoid99]

Looks like some Italians feel nostalgic for Mussolini:

https://qz.com/993672/a-controversial-museum-is-forcing-italy-to-talk-about-its-fascist-past/

He has a pretty nice shrine were he is entombed. I am sort of surprised that there is this revisionist history for that monster.

Goddamnit. Haven't they learned what happened in the past? The Germans have a zero-tolerance policy towards Nazism and will beat the shit out of anyone who does a Nazi salute.

[Haysey_Draws]

This is a pretty chilling read...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/31/neo-nazi-eastern-chemnitz-germany-saxony

[Sutekh]

Brexit deal agreed!

we be fucked

[Haysey_Draws]

2 Ministers resign over the deal which will send us up shit creek without a fucking boat let alone paddle!!

[Haysey_Draws]

From our PM...

"We can choose to leave with no deal, or have no Brexit at all"

THEN HAVE NO BREXIT THEN YOU FUCKING LUNATIC!

[WorzelG]

2 Ministers resign over the deal which will send us up shit creek without a fucking boat let alone paddle!!
Yeah but they’re resigning because we’re not crashing out without a deal - does anyone have a more smackable face than Jacob Rees Mogg?

[theimage13]

As an ignorant American, I for one felt that there should have been a second stay / leave vote. The articles I was reading here in the states back when you voted seemed to portray a sense of instant regret. People saying they voted leave as a joke because they thought there was no way it would happen. People who voted leave and then found out within days that they had been brazenly lied to about what it actually meant. Years later, I've still never gotten the sense that leaving is what any significant portion of you want. Am I just totally misinformed?

[WorzelG]

As an ignorant American, I for one felt that there should have been a second stay / leave vote. The articles I was reading here in the states back when you voted seemed to portray a sense of instant regret. People saying they voted leave as a joke because they thought there was no way it would happen. People who voted leave and then found out within days that they had been brazenly lied to about what it actually meant. Years later, I've still never gotten the sense that leaving is what any significant portion of you want. Am I just totally misinformed?
i don’t even know where to begin in answering this. I know someone personally who voted Leave because of the promises of much more money for the NHS (she’s a nurse and I think she’s changed her mind now, she’s also a mother to mixed race kids so was quite upset to be thought of as racist). But after reading about the Cambridge Analytica Facebook scandal, I think we should at least have another vote. I thought the Remain campaign was rubbish too, it was more based on trying to make people scared of the consequences of leaving rather than why we should stay in the EU, and try to dispel the endless myths about the EU peddled by the tabloid press for forty years, really negative campaigning whereas the leave campaign was full of ‘we can have our cake and eat it’ bollocks and terrible Facebook bot campaigning with aggressive racism (but the official campaign could disassociate itself from this even though we know now these campaign groups were all interlinked). Anyway sorry I’m rambling, I’d like to think people have changed their mind, but maybe I’m just stuck in a liberal bubble only really associating with people who think like me

[Exocet]

does anyone else not think that the EU's ultimate goal is a Untied States of Europe? I voted to remain, but its not clear what the EU is about anymore.
also it mostly seems to revolve around France and Germany, this is the main reason why it formed, it was a way for them to neutralize one another. and stop killing one another, this never had to involve the UK really. we were protected by English channel. escaped same level of devastation.
but this whole thing is never mentioned. and now you have Italy feeling all left out and rebelling.
I wish the whole project was more transparent

so I do get why people want to escape it. but at the same time, I could not be bothered with this clusterfuck we are dealing with now.
if the EU were to Unite it would be a superpower overnight, 600 million people, 20 trillion economy. centre of the world.
but if that's what its about be honest..

[Sutekh]

it's just a series of trade arrangements.

The main reason people voted to leave - and seriously don't waste time with people bleating otherwise - was immigration. But you can opt out of free movement and take a few penalties - as Denmark does. We are chucking the baby out with the bathwater because daft people got hoodwinked by tabloids and social media

[WorzelG]

it's just a series of trade arrangements.

The main reason people voted to leave - and seriously don't waste time with people bleating otherwise - was immigration. But you can opt out of free movement and take a few penalties - as Denmark does. We are chucking the baby out with the bathwater because daft people got hoodwinked by tabloids and social media

I agree that there was mainly racism involved in the vote, I remember being really disgusted by a leaflet that came round implying Turkey was about to join the EU which is bollocks, I don’t think it’s human rights record is anywhere near the standard required). What also gets me is that the rhetoric from those awful bot Facebook campaigns (and the Express) was really islamophobic but what does that have to do with freedom of movement from the EU which is majority white? Also the no deal fucks keep banging on about all these amazing trade deals we’ll get but who are the economies which are growing? China and India (more brown people, gasp!). I had an irritating guy on Facebook keep posting all this Express anti - Islam stuff on his timeline (he was the husband of one of the mums at my kids school I was friends with) and then one of his friends posted this ‘are you a racist?’ Joke questionnaires from news thump so at least it meant he had friends who weren’t being taken in by his shit and we’re prepared to call him out on it

[Haysey_Draws]

it's just a series of trade arrangements.

The main reason people voted to leave - and seriously don't waste time with people bleating otherwise - was immigration. But you can opt out of free movement and take a few penalties - as Denmark does. We are chucking the baby out with the bathwater because daft people got hoodwinked by tabloids and social media

Yeah i agree, it's why my family voted leave (they are really racist...and really fucking stupid!)

[theimage13]

WTF is happening in Great Britain right now? I'm seeing stories about the legal options for just saying "whoops, fuck it" and forgetting the Brexit vote ever happened, and apparently right now your MPs are voting whether to toss May out of office?

At least America isn't the only first world country that's gone batshit crazy in the politic field.

[Demogorgon]

And then you have France having a vote towards No Confidence in Macron because of his tax hikes and the riots. Europe is in as bad shape as we are.

[icklekitty]

Europe is in as bad shape as we are.

Woah now.

[bobbie solo]

Woah now.

Consider who wrote it.

[Demogorgon]

Consider who wrote it.

Oh, come off it. Seriously, if you have something to say, fucking say it.

[WorzelG]

@theimage13 (https://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=809) they’re all interconnected! Personally I’ve never denied Britain is in the shit, same as US (US isn’t as badly off, at least they can vote Trump out in a few years, Brexit is forever) look at Cambridge Analytica and all the Steve Bannon links. These same connected fucks (Nigel Farage Wikileaks) are spreading chaos everywhere, Bannon is on a European quest to fuck things up even more - I wish the guy would just die, he looks at deaths door as it is. I’ve been reading a lot of Carole Cadwalladr lately as she broke the Cambridge Analytica story, her tweet threads are great and really give an idea of the scale of rise of the Alt Right
https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla

[Demogorgon]

Besides which, there's again the riots in France, London is at a decade high for murders, Germany's government is cracking apart, Italy is condemning migrants to drown, and most of eastern Europe is in flat out defiance of the EU and becoming more and more populist/nationalist with each election cycle. I fail to see how I'm wrong about my statement.

[Haysey_Draws]

Honestly i fucking live here and even i'm struggling to work out what the fuck is going on anymore! We've also got that Article 13 bollocks loaming which could fuck up all sorts of the internet for us...things are just royally fucked right now!