PDA

View Full Version : Steubenville trial and rape culture



Pages : [1] 2

Magtig
03-17-2013, 05:55 PM
WHAT THE HOLY SHITTING FUCK, CNN!!!?

http://youtu.be/MvUdyNko8LQ

orestes
03-17-2013, 06:19 PM
Lives destroyed? OMG how about the rape victim?! Fucking rape culture.

DigitalChaos
03-17-2013, 07:28 PM
wtf. When did CNN turn into Fox? Yea, those poor rapists have ruined their future chances of raping more people.

Pro tip: don't rape people!

Jinsai
03-17-2013, 09:57 PM
It's like an Onion article... an incredibly dark Onion article.

That's just unbelievable. I feel sick.

allegro
03-17-2013, 11:44 PM
I dunno, if you watch the whole thing she seems to be saying their "promising lives" are over because they're now registered sex offenders. Or something.

if there is a moral to this story, it's this: KIDS, DON'T DRINK!!! Teens have bad enough judgment as it is; add too much booze and CELL PHONES and it gets way out of hand. This DRINKING culture is the real root of the problem. And trading cell phone photos of a passed out drunk assaulted girl? Wtf. Our entire culture is so full of disgusting lack of empathy and people who only give a fuck about taking and sharing cell phone pictures. THEY SHOULD ALL GO TO JUVIE JAIL!!!


Judge Lipps described much of the evidence as “profane and ugly.” In sentencing the boys, he said rape was among the gravest of crimes and noted that they could have been tried as adults with far harsher punishments. He also said the case was a cautionary lesson in how teenagers conduct themselves when alcohol is present and in “how you record things on social media that are so prevalent today.”

The trial also exposed the behavior of other teenagers, who wasted no time spreading photos and text messages with what many in the community felt was callousness or cruelty.

And that aspect of the case may not be complete. The Ohio attorney general, Mike DeWine, said after the verdict that he would convene a grand jury in a month to finish the investigation.

In an interview, Mr. DeWine said that while it was not clear that more people would face charges, prosecutors might consider offenses that include obstruction of justice, failure to report a felony and failure to report child abuse. State officials have interviewed almost 60 people — students, coaches, school officials and parents — but 16, most of them juveniles, have refused to speak to investigators.

Jinsai
03-18-2013, 01:06 AM
actually, the Onion did post something like this about a year ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWLJZw9Ws-g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zWLJZw9Ws-g)

Nyx
03-18-2013, 05:32 AM
Females have to be taught to NEVER drink at parties.
Wow, are you serious? I can't tell.

orestes
03-18-2013, 06:15 AM
Or you know, young men could be taught what rape is and not to do it.

icklekitty
03-18-2013, 06:42 AM
I'm pretty sure that no matter how drunk me and my (male) friends get (and believe me, we like to get BLOT-TO), we never forget that stuff like rape is bad. That like, touching up a girl who's unconscious is bad and that filming it and sharing it is also bad.

How about females have to be taught not to wear short skirts?
How about females have to be taught not to wear make up?
How about females have to be taught never to go outside?

Because, you know, men are defenseless cockmonkeys with no social skills or moral compass and we can't help that!


I'm most disgusted at how female "newsreaders" in the media are pushing this.

orestes
03-18-2013, 09:51 AM
I want to make sweet consensual love to that post, Shreena.

allegro
03-18-2013, 12:15 PM
Male and female teens should NOT be drinking. Period. Especially not to the point where they pass out. You could get MURDERED for Christ sake. This is NOT the same as "wearing a short skirt." It IS, however, important to use the limited brain that you have as a teen and assume that teens these days are apparently careless, crude and POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS assholes with zero compassion and zero common sense. The dozens of teens - boys and girls - who saw the teen girl passed out after ILLEGALLY drinking VODKA SLUSHIES should have called a parent or the police. The PARENTS didn't raise ANY of these kids right. Drinking VODKA SLUSHIES at a teen party? ADULTS can't handle that shit, let alone teens!! How the hell did they get that shit? Where was the parent at this house party? That girl could have had alcohol poisoning; she could have DIED. The adult binge-drinking culture is bleeding into teen culture. And it's all dangerous and stupid. Defending that behavior is just as stupid and dangerous. Note that those drunk teens then went out and DROVE A CAR. With the unconscious drunk girl in the car!

I know that when I was a teen girl, I assumed drunk or high teen boys were potential crazed maniacs and I couldn't predict their behavior so I stayed the fuck out of those situations. Drunk teen FOOTBALL PLAYERS? Bring a fucking UZI!! The best way to protect our daughters is to try to raise good sons but that's NEVER worked so the next best thing is to teach girls to protect themselves. Don't drink, always be aware of your surroundings, carry pepper spray and never go anywhere alone. My feminist mother taught me JUDO.

As I said, the police should charge every one of those teens who did nothing and/or posted pics and vids with CRIMINAL CHARGES. This girl was very brave for filing charges against these animals. That's what they are: animals. But this is also a teachable moment for teens and parents as to the callous jungle in which we live. This ain't fucking Happy Days; this is more like Lord of the Flies.


Case in point: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57571444-504083/joliet-murders-update-suspects-had-sex-on-top-of-corpses-report-says/

Magtig
03-18-2013, 02:25 PM
if there is a moral to this story, it's this: KIDS, DON'T DRINK!!!
I'm... really surprised at the tone of your whole post, but especially this. I would have thought the moral to be: don't rape, and don't let your friends rape.

allegro
03-18-2013, 02:34 PM
read my above post.

OF COURSE people should not:

get people so drunk that they're passed out
have sexual relations with people without their CONSCIOUS CONSENT
take VIDEOS AND PHOTOS of drunk passed out people
post said videos and photos of drunk and naked passed out people to the general public
neglect to call the authorities or at least a parent to assist a drunk passed out girl who could have DIED from drinking


Those are all givens.

But TEENS SHOULD NOT DRINK should be in there, too. This is NOT saying that victims "deserve" to be victims; that's fucking faulty logic. I'm simply saying PROTECT YOURSELF! Not just from rape, videos, assault, but FROM DEATH!

There is a REASON why alcohol is illegal to minors or people under 21 (in this country). Binge drinking is a big problem, here. Overly drunk adults are stupid enough; teens don't even have fully-functional cerebral cortexes, yet (http://www.hhs.gov/opa/familylife/tech_assistance/etraining/adolescent_brain/Development/prefrontal_cortex/).

It's also DANGEROUS behavior; you could get in a drunk driving accident, you could get alcohol poisoning, you could die. Everyone seems to love binge drinking so much that they're defending drinking, despite the fact that this poor girl was UNCONSCIOUS and could have DIED. Never mind all the other HORRIBLE things that happened to her because she was unable to defend herself due to these idiots feeding her and themselves vodka.

Teens should be READING THIS: http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/underage-drinking.htm


Fact Sheets
Underage Drinking
Alcohol use by persons under age 21 years is a major public health problem.1 Alcohol is the most commonly used and abused drug among youth in the United States, more than tobacco and illicit drugs1, and is responsible for more than 4,700 annual deaths among underage youth2. Although drinking by persons under the age of 21 is illegal, people aged 12 to 20 years drink 11% of all alcohol consumed in the United States.3 More than 90% of this alcohol is consumed in the form of binge drinks.3 On average, underage drinkers consume more drinks per drinking occasion than adult drinkers.4 In 2010, there were approximately 189,000 emergency rooms visits by persons under age 21 for injuries and other conditions linked to alcohol.5

Drinking Levels among Youth
The 2011 Youth Risk Behavior Survey6 found that among high school students, during the past 30 days

39% drank some amount of alcohol.
22% binge drank.
8% drove after drinking alcohol.
24% rode with a driver who had been drinking alcohol.
Other national surveys

In 2011 the National Survey on Drug Use and Health reported that 25% of youth aged 12 to 20 years drink alcohol and 16% reported binge drinking.7
In 2011, the Monitoring the Future Survey reported that 33% of 8th graders and 70% of 12th graders had tried alcohol, and 13% of 8th graders and 40% of 12th graders drank during the past month.8
Consequences of Underage Drinking
Youth who drink alcohol 1, 4, 9 are more likely to experience

School problems, such as higher absence and poor or failing grades.
Social problems, such as fighting and lack of participation in youth activities.
Legal problems, such as arrest for driving or physically hurting someone while drunk.
Physical problems, such as hangovers or illnesses.
Unwanted, unplanned, and unprotected sexual activity.
Disruption of normal growth and sexual development.
Physical and sexual assault.
Higher risk for suicide and homicide.
Alcohol-related car crashes and other unintentional injuries, such as burns, falls, and drowning.
Memory problems.
Abuse of other drugs.
Changes in brain development that may have life-long effects.
Death from alcohol poisoning.
In general, the risk of youth experiencing these problems is greater for those who binge drink than for those who do not binge drink.9

Youth who start drinking before age 15 years are five times more likely to develop alcohol dependence or abuse later in life than those who begin drinking at or after age 21 years.10, 11

Prevention of Underage Drinking
Reducing underage drinking will require community-based efforts to monitor the activities of youth and decrease youth access to alcohol. Recent publications by the Surgeon General1 and the Institute of Medicine4 outlined many prevention strategies that will require actions on the national, state, and local levels, such as enforcement of minimum legal drinking age laws, national media campaigns targeting youth and adults, increasing alcohol excise taxes, reducing youth exposure to alcohol advertising, and development of comprehensive community-based programs. These efforts will require continued research and evaluation to determine their success and to improve their effectiveness.

References:
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. The Surgeon General's Call to Action to Prevent and Reduce Underage Drinking. Rockville, MD: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services; 2007.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Alcohol-Related Disease Impact (ARDI). Atlanta, GA: CDC.
Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention. Drinking in America: Myths, Realities, and Prevention Policy [PDF-1.08MB]. Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, 2005.
Bonnie RJ and O’Connell ME, editors. National Research Council and Institute of Medicine, Reducing Underage Drinking: A Collective Responsibility. Committee on Developing a Strategy to Reduce and Prevent Underage Drinking. Division of Behavioral and Social Sciences and Education. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press, 2004.
Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, Center for Behavioral Health Statistics and Quality. The DAWN Report: Highlights of the 2010 Drug Abuse Warning Network (DAWN) Findings on Drug-Related Emergency Department Visits [PDF-410KB]. Rockville, MD; 2012.
Eaton DK, Kann L, Kinchen SA, et al. Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance—United States, 2011 [PDF-3.46MB]. CDC Morb Mort Surveil Summ 2012;61(SS-04):1–162.
Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. Results from the 2011 National Survey on Drug Use and Health: Summary of National Findings [PDF-3.22MB] (NSDUH Series H-44, HHS Publication No. SMA 12-4713). Rockville, MD: Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, 2012.
Johnston, L D, O'Malley P M, Bachman, J G, & Schulenberg J E. "Monitoring the Future national results on adolescent drug use: Overview of key findings, 2011 [PDF 1.64 MB] Ann Arbor, MI: Institute for Social Research, The University of Michigan.
Miller JW, Naimi TS, Brewer RD, Jones SE. Binge drinking and associated health risk behaviors among high school students. Pediatrics 2007;119:76–85.
Hingson RW, Heeren T, Winter MR. Age at drinking onset and alcohol dependence: age at onset, duration, and severity. Pediatrics 2006;160:739–746.
Office of Applied Studies. The NSDUH Report: Alcohol Dependence or Abuse and Age at First Use. Rockville, MD: Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, October 2004.

Deepvoid
03-18-2013, 02:44 PM
That's a very conservative view.

Even though our drinking age is 18 years old in Canada, I did some hardcore partying starting at 15. However, it was mostly under adult supervision. My parents didn't have any problems with me having parties in the basement, that way they could keep an eye if something bad happened (which never did).

I think it all depends on how you were raised and the values transmitted by your parents.
I will never forbid my kid to drink if he's 16. That's how kids rebel and that's when you lose control.

allegro
03-18-2013, 02:52 PM
It's not logical to compare Canada or Europe to the United States. We have very specific problems related to our own binge drinking culture.

See the above report issued by the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/underage-drinking.htm).



My parents didn't have any problems with me having parties in the basement, that way they could keep an eye if something bad happened (which never did).
That could land your parents in jail in this country.

Deepvoid
03-18-2013, 02:52 PM
Fair enough.

allegro
03-18-2013, 03:02 PM
Also, see this (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15000502?dopt=Abstract) and this (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12022717?dopt=Abstract). PREVENTION means waking up to reality and educating children and college students.

icklekitty
03-18-2013, 03:04 PM
Cultural drinking problem or not (which in itself sounds like a valid problem to be tackled), it doesn't legitimise what happened one bit. Even if you're so drunk you can't move or see, even if you lose consciousness, you're not automatically an open invitation for sex, being hit, being pissed on. Ever ever ever ever.

allegro
03-18-2013, 03:12 PM
Have you read any of the above data? NOBODY is saying that it LEGITIMIZES it. However, it DOES INCREASE THE RISK. Just like being drunk increases the chance of using unsafe sex, of communicating or acquiring an STD, of unwanted pregnancy, or death, or being sexually assaulted. Both girls and boys need to be educated about this problem as well as the problem of binge drinking in this country.

Yes, these callous morons who posted videos is an ADDITIONAL problem in this country. It's not uncommon, here, for people to first whip out a camera and take pictures instead of coming to the aid of any kind of victim. But, drunk teens are far less likely to use good judgment in most situation; they can't help it. Their judgment is already questionable; add binge drinking and they're about as intelligent as my pen holder.

We are CREATING this culture and we need to stop it (http://healthland.time.com/2013/01/10/chug-chug-chug-why-more-women-are-binge-drinking/).

Magtig
03-18-2013, 03:26 PM
I don't disagree with your main point, allegro, but making a conversation about rape apologists into one where we're saying young women should be taught not to drink will pretty much always shift the blame from the rapist to alcohol, and isn't that part of rape culture in itself? Again, I don't disagree that teens shouldn't be drinking and also that we have a very destructive culture surrounding alcohol, but it seems to miss the point.

I just ran into this on the net:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/9a0482e3a77514a6b1008a636abfc9d5/tumblr_mju6kaCiRQ1qe7dlao1_1280.jpg

allegro
03-18-2013, 03:32 PM
I don't disagree with your main point, allegro, but making a conversation about rape apologists into one where we're saying young women should be taught not to drink will pretty much always shift the blame from the rapist to alcohol, and isn't that part of rape culture in itself? Again, I don't disagree that teens shouldn't be drinking and also that we have a very destructive culture surrounding alcohol, but it seems to miss the point.
The above-linked Time Magazine article includes the following:

Although the CDC report does not speculate why women are binge drinking, Dr. David Jernigan, director of the Center on Alcohol Marketing and Youth, says that female-friendly alcohol-marketing strategies that emerged 10 years ago — including flavored vodkas, alcopops, Smirnoff Ice, Barcardi Silver and Mike’s Hard Lemonade — may be playing a role.

“All of these were clearly oriented to women. The data showed these products were most popular among females of every age group and were most popular among young drinkers. Those of us involved in alcohol prevention called alcopops ‘beer with training wheels,’” says Jernigan. “Women traditionally drank less than men — and still do — but there has been a very intentional effort to increase it, and this has started exposing young women to products and marketing at high rates. The numbers are not surprising to us and are of great concern.” Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2013/01/10/chug-chug-chug-why-more-women-are-binge-drinking/#ixzz2NvRGNmTh

See photographer Amanda Berg's Keg Stand Queens (http://www.alexiafoundation.org/stories/AmandaBerg) award-winning photography project.


A rise in the number of women who binge drink has been showing up all over America and in particular on college campuses.

This trend is especially relevant in light of the Convergence Hypothesis, a theory popularized in the '80s and '90s that speculated the alcohol consumption of undergraduate women would converge with that of their male counterparts. As women began to take on more stereotypically male roles, in the workplace, athletic arena and elsewhere, this theory posited they would make an effort to drink more like men. Standardizing drinking norms across gender boundaries can be seen as an attempt to standardize gender norms in general.

However, equal drinking does not necessarily correlate to equality. Compared to men, a woman’s body is more easily inebriated by alcohol. Having less body water then men, females achieve a higher blood alcohol level after consuming the same amounts. This leads to higher rates of the negative side effects associated with drinking (i.e. injuries, alcohol poisoning and non-consensual sexual activities). As Dr. Duncan Clark of the Pittsburgh Adolescent Alcohol Research Center described, the homogeneous use of alcohol between sexes presents a “perverse kind of equality.”

My project will focus on the cultural dialect surrounding this “perverse equality.” From anecdotal experience the language used by female binge drinkers themselves may be the most dangerous aspect of this trend. I know first hand how language and “group think” can change the meaning of an action. After a night of excessive drinking sexual assault can be redefined as a “hook up.” The loss of memory due to inebriation can proudly be termed “blacking out.” Words like “apparently” preface the stories told of the prior night. With this, women abdicate responsibility and give themselves permission to repeat the same behavior.

By using convoluted language female binge drinkers obscure the potential consequences of their actions. Robyn Warshaw demonstrates in her book "I Never Called it Rape" that out of the 25% of women in college who are victims of rape only 5% report the incident. Likewise, many students have described being too intoxicated to know if they consented to having sex.

In October 2009, the first semester of my junior year in college, I decided to bring my camera to a “Halloween party.” With the permission of the women and men at the party I recorded the scene. In distancing myself from the praters, I viewed the environment with a more objective perspective. It allowed me to recognize the complex relationship women undergraduates have with alcohol. By binge drinking, under their own volition women appear to be putting themselves in positions of higher risk. Rather than promoting equality, women who subjugate themselves to the dangerous drinking practices of their male counterparts are actually inviting in-equality.

By continuing this project I intend to explore the repercussions women who transgress gender boundaries face by going shot for shot, competing at the beer pong table and doing keg stands with men. I am determined to document the moments female binge drinkers choose to discard or painfully reinterpret through language. Through the stories of a variety of women from a cross-section of schools I hope to shed light on a culture so universal among my peers it is often disregarded and misunderstood. I will combine audio, natural sound and interviews, with the images to provide a comparison between the language used while one is enamored within the party culture and while one is independently reflecting. I ultimately aim to produce a body of work that will inspire female binge drinkers to confront a more objective image of themselves and begin to communicate their experiences to others.

Nyx
03-18-2013, 04:39 PM
Annnnd Fox News goes ahead and airs the 16 year old victim's name. Amazing!!

Allegro, here's the problem I see in your reasoning. You tell a girl NOT to get drunk at parties. You tell her it's risky and irresponsible to get drunk. You tell her if she gets drunk, she's increasing her odds of getting raped. But the the girl goes out, gets drunk and gets raped. You gave her all this advice about how SHE can diminish HER chances of being raped and she did it anyway. So you see, by this reasoning, it's partly the girl's fault for not doing everything in her power to diminish her chances of being raped. And that's kinda disgusting, at least in my view.
Rape isn't like some meteorological phenomena that comes along and it's your fucking fault for not staying indoors. It's embedded in a culture, and THAT is what needs to change, men not raping, not girls staying sober at parties.
This is also an interesting read: http://prospect.org/article/toxic-masculinity#.UUcaq4occyw.facebook

allegro
03-18-2013, 04:45 PM
Allegro, here's the problem I see in your reasoning.
It's not "my" reasoning. It's been an increasing battle cry of feminists for years. See the above-referenced photo essay BY A COLLEGE FEMALE. "From anecdotal experience the language used by female binge drinkers themselves may be the most dangerous aspect of this trend. I know first hand how language and “group think” can change the meaning of an action. After a night of excessive drinking sexual assault can be redefined as a “hook up.” The loss of memory due to inebriation can proudly be termed “blacking out.” Words like “apparently” preface the stories told of the prior night. With this, women abdicate responsibility and give themselves permission to repeat the same behavior."


So you see, by this reasoning, it's partly the girl's fault for not doing everything in her power to diminish her chances of being raped. And that's kinda disgusting, at least in my view.
If that girl went out and got drunk and drove a car and killed a family of 5, is she not at least partly responsible for that? We avoid discussing the female taking control and then we're all too willing to relinquish her control. Be very careful with that. You're going backward, not forward.


It's embedded in a culture, and THAT is what needs to change, men not raping, not girls staying sober at parties.
They are not mutually exclusive; they both need to change. The media and marketing and culture has encouraged risky behavior and dangerous activity and consequences by encouraging binge drinking among girls and young women. Marketing and advertising and culture has told young women that getting shitfaced and compromising your choice and safety is "okay" and takes you off the hook for any bad choices you make or for doing things you don't want to do. This isn't good for women; it sets us backward hundreds of years. This isn't a single glass of wine, here; this isn't taking away a woman's right to drink; we're talking women and girls getting so shitfaced that they don't REMEMBER if they had sex. It's girls and young women being socially pressured to do things they don't want to do, or to be in unwanted situations, and using binge drinking as a way to handle it or to be "accepted."

Remember, the reason why these boys were determined by a judge as being responsible for this crime is because the female victim was so drunk, it was impossible for her to have had consented to ANYTHING let alone sexual activity. The only evidence in her favor (since the boys used fingers to rape her and did not leave any physical evidence, e.g. sperm or DNA) is all those videos and photos showing the girl as quite obviously UNCONSCIOUS and thereby not able to provide consent to the activities shown in the videos and photos.

The parents of these boys might have told them that "not being able to say no is the same as no" but all those idiots at the party - GIRLS INCLUDED - belong to a culture that seems to indicate that if you're THAT drunk, you are sending a message that you don't care or not you're not responsible for what happens to you (thereby relinquishing your control). Of course, this is too harsh for us adults to accept. That's crazy. But, that's the way these kids think. And, that needs to change. But, we also need these girls to take back their control.

jessamineny
03-18-2013, 05:21 PM
If you engage in risky behavior, there may be consequences. That's just part of life. And the consequences can be horrible or wonderful... that's why we engage in risky behavior.

In your hypothetical, you can't absolve the girl of any ownership of the consequences of her behavior. You also can't absolve a rapist of any guilt just because the victim has some ownership in the situation. There is no mutual exclusivity at play.

It's just so difficult because continually women aren't believed, are blamed, are shamed, are attacked for "ruining lives"... so any suggestion that we acknowledge the existence of personal responsibility can reflexively feel like just more of the same.

There is nothing wrong with suggesting that women, young or old, be careful while drinking in social situations. Just like there's nothing wrong with telling someone not to walk around alone late at night. It's one thing you can do to (hopefully) improve your chances of not becoming a victim. Frankly, if it gets to the point where we can't give women and girls such common-sense advice, we're further victimizing them.

Edit: Damn, it took me a while to write this. Just saw your post, allegro. :D

allegro
03-18-2013, 05:30 PM
Frankly, if it gets to the point where we can't give women and girls such common-sense advice, we're further victimizing them.


Right on, sister!!!

eskimo
03-18-2013, 05:48 PM
It's sad that we have to teach women how to defend themselves from rapists, but the reality of life is that we do. Yes, it should be stopped, until it is, women need to know how to defend themselves. Part of defending themselves is not letting themselves get into bad situations.

I have a daughter, and there is a reason why she's been taking Karate for the part 4 years and will continue to do so until she earns her black belt. I don't want her to become a victim, and I can't change the rest of the world, so I have to prepare her to defend herself from it.

marodi
03-18-2013, 06:07 PM
Saying that this young woman owed it to herself to keep herself away from a dangerous situation will never mean that she deserved to be raped. Teaching our kids, boy or girls (because boys do get raped too, by the way) to be safe is only good old common sense.

It's doesn't mean that nothing bad will never happen to them unfortunately but it will improve their chances to stay safe.

allegro
03-18-2013, 06:36 PM
By pressing charges, this brave girl is standing up as a role model for change in teen drinking culture and the dangers of being vulnerable because of drinking, as well as for boys and what they should NOT do when somebody is drunk. Never mind those morons standing around taking pics and posting them; I hope they all get sentenced, too, so that it sends a clear message of what can happen if you do that dumb shit. Standing around posting pics of the crime to Facebook when you could have some compassion and common sense and call a parent or the police is unacceptable and punishable behavior.

slave2thewage
03-18-2013, 08:25 PM
I started drinking when I was 15/16 and even then I'm pretty sure I knew not to rape people.

Ah well, they'll learn a whole new perspective about rape in a week or so.

DigitalChaos
03-18-2013, 09:06 PM
Why is there always a need to distill problems into a single root cause with a single fix? Life is more complicated than that. How about everyone just takes responsibility for their own actions. End of story. These kids didn't do one single thing wrong, the did a bunch of things wrong. They did a bunch of immoral shit. I'm not a fan of punishing people for victimless crimes (ex: the simple act of drinking) but they need to pay the consequences for everything that created a victim. Make an example of them and hopefully it will make dumbshit kids think "hey, that could be me, maybe I should think about my actions a bit"

Nyx
03-19-2013, 04:24 AM
If that girl went out and got drunk and drove a car and killed a family of 5, is she not at least partly responsible for that?I don't get it, I'm sorry. Yes, she would be fully responsible for driving drunk. No, she would not be responsible for getting penetrated without consent.

Listen, I agree that it's bad for people to drink themselves unconscious and that it's good to use common sense, but I get extremely irritated when the focus is shifted from the rapists' behaviour to the victim's behaviour. We're making an issue of what she did, instead of what they did, why they did it and why they're getting support from their communities and sympathies from news anchors. What those boys did to her went WAY beyond "stupid drunken teen behaviour". To make this a lesson in "this is what happens when you drink, kids, especially you, girls" is to ignore problems much more harmful and much more relevant than binge drinking. "Females should be sober at parties" is not and should not be the moral of the story.

I don't believe there will ever be a time when teenagers don't get shitfaced, and I don't believe there will ever be a time when people don't rape each other. But what can be changed, I believe, is how communities react to rape, how the society treats the victims, how it treats the rapists and what it focuses on in the aftermath. And as usual, we choose to focus on what the victim did wrong.

icklekitty
03-19-2013, 05:01 AM
Yeah, while there are a lot of problems with drinking, we're talking about a girl who got gangraped whilst unconscious. This isn't like getting your money stolen if you walk around with your purse open. If you get drunk and do bad things you are culpable. This girl did NOTHING WRONG. This incident isn't going to teach her to drink less (although that may well be a consequence). It's going to teach her to live the rest of her life in constant fear of males, intimacy, relationships, love. Add to that the fact that she knew these people so thought she was safe.

And I think rape problems are far more serious than drinking problems. Especially when this is the shit your politicians are openly advocating; being a drunk is generally frowned upon while being a sexual assualter is culturally accepted as "easy/frigid" women and jock humour. Don't just shrug off other people that say that their intake of alcohol has no influence on their MORALITY (even if we consider drunk driving, it's an accident).

You have a right to get drunk and pass out. You don't have a right to molest and abuse a child who has passed out.

orestes
03-19-2013, 06:23 AM
As someone was apt to point out, if a guy passes out drunk, the worst thing that'll happened are a bunch of sharpie dicks on his body. If a woman does the same thing, the least of her worries are compromising photos of her unconscious.

jessamineny
03-19-2013, 07:16 AM
Listen, I agree that it's bad for people to drink themselves unconscious and that it's good to use common sense, but I get extremely irritated when the focus is shifted from the rapists' behaviour to the victim's behaviour. We're making an issue of what she did, instead of what they did, why they did it and why they're getting support from their communities and sympathies from news anchors. What those boys did to her went WAY beyond "stupid drunken teen behaviour". To make this a lesson in "this is what happens when you drink, kids, especially you, girls" is to ignore problems much more harmful and much more relevant than binge drinking. "Females should be sober at parties" is not and should not be the moral of the story.

I don't believe there will ever be a time when teenagers don't get shitfaced, and I don't believe there will ever be a time when people don't rape each other. But what can be changed, I believe, is how communities react to rape, how the society treats the victims, how it treats the rapists and what it focuses on in the aftermath. And as usual, we choose to focus on what the victim did wrong.

See, I think you're reflexively reacting to the discussion. How is allegro bringing up teen drinking a shift in discussion "from the rapists' behaviour to the victim's behaviour." It's merely another (important) aspect of the case. There is no "shifting" going on here.

And this case is a lesson in what happens when kids drink. How can it not be?? If they were sober, do you really think any of this would have happened? When kids drink, they do stupid things. And in this case, it escalated to hideous criminal things. Don't forget that they're kids. With impulse control problems, ill-formed senses of self and particular proclivity to mob behavior. All of which is magnified by alcohol (which, to make matters worse, they usually haven't formed much experience with yet).

Talking about teen drinking will not somehow invalidate other important messages. We don't have to exclusively talk about solutions that involve educating boys and changing how society treats rape victims.



As someone was apt to point out, if a guy passes out drunk, the worst thing that'll happened are a bunch of sharpie dicks on his body. If a woman does the same thing, the least of her worries are compromising photos of her unconscious.

Absolutely. And if this is reality, which it unfortunately is, don't we have an obligation to teach young girls to be careful when drinking in social situations?

icklekitty
03-19-2013, 07:48 AM
We have an obligation to teach young boys not to be sexist, entitled, cunts.

jessamineny
03-19-2013, 07:50 AM
JFS. WHY does it have to be an either/or situation?

kdrcraig
03-19-2013, 07:54 AM
http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/teen-girls-charged-allegedly-threatening-steubenville-ohio-rape-031007320--abc-news-topstories.html

Not sure if this has been brought up yet but now two girls have been arrested for threatening the rape victim online.

icklekitty
03-19-2013, 08:08 AM
JFS. WHY does it have to be an either/or situation?

...because the perpetrators of crimes should be punished and not the victims?

allegro
03-19-2013, 08:13 AM
Listen, I agree that it's bad for people to drink themselves unconscious
Teens - boys and girls - in this country should not be drinking because they don't seem to have a governor or moderation. That's not blaming the victim, that's not shifting the blame, it's an additional truth. Yes we need people to understand that this is wrong, that has always been the case. But since this stuff happens every week on college campuses, we need to expand the dialog and see what can be done and why drunk girls are apparently viewed as "fair game." Why is that? How do we change it?

This includes empowering girls and educating them, not telling them that they'll always be helpless victims so there's nothing they can do while we wait for boys to know how to do the right thing?

Some women are online discussing this topic and saying they're going to start carrying guns.

jessamineny
03-19-2013, 08:28 AM
As someone was apt to point out, if a guy passes out drunk, the worst thing that'll happened are a bunch of sharpie dicks on his body. If a woman does the same thing, the least of her worries are compromising photos of her unconscious.



Absolutely. And if this is reality, which it unfortunately is, don't we have an obligation to teach young girls to be careful when drinking in social situations?


We have an obligation to teach young boys not to be sexist, entitled, cunts.


JFS. WHY does it have to be an either/or situation?


...because the perpetrators of crimes should be punished and not the victims?

Where in anything I said was that punishing a victim? It's about empowering girls to protect themselves.

Reality is fucking reality. Orestes laid it out very plainly. If we stubbornly cling to the belief that rape shouldn't happen, and women shouldn't have to change their behaviors because it's patently unjust, we only end up doing women a disservice. We have to give young girls and women tools to thrive in reality, not the reality we wish existed.

allegro
03-19-2013, 08:45 AM
http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/teen-girls-charged-allegedly-threatening-steubenville-ohio-rape-031007320--abc-news-topstories.html

Not sure if this has been brought up yet but now two girls have been arrested for threatening the rape victim online.
Ugh jeez. This reminds me of those "Team Breezy" chicks who follow Chris Brown around and send out Twitter threats to anybody who mentions that he beat the shit out of Rihanna.

Sutekh
03-19-2013, 08:54 AM
It's very simple!

We are loathe to exonerate rapists in any way, but nonetheless cannot neglect our duty to prepare young girls for the world.

The way of striking this balance is ;

You commit to educating young girls about drinking responsibly and keeping their wits about them.

If a rape happens, the emphasis shifts entirely to blaming the rapist. It is now too late to lecture the victim. Continue educating young girls about the dangers they face. But culturally, we NEED to start treating rape & rapists for what they are, as a society our disdain is simply not strong enough, culturally or in terms of legislation and punishment (I speak as a resident of the UK, but about the western world generally).

Culturally an awful lot of people don't think it is that big a deal. They know it's a big deal and they can sort of empathise, but in their heart of hearts they don't think it's that bad. These rape apologists reinforce the culture that enables the rapist & denies the victims proper justice.

Whether this sense of priority is correct all depends on whether you think young girls' tendency to cut loose and party is a more grave issue than a tacitly rape-permissive culture

allegro
03-19-2013, 10:10 AM
^^ Sutekh, thank you, good post. Yes, I guess even females evidently need to be taught that this is in fact a big deal and it's bad.

(This includes being physically and emotionally abused by boyfriends, which is reported to be a hidden and accepted epidemic among kids and teens.)

orestes
03-19-2013, 11:43 AM
A must read
http://www.dailylife.com.au/all-about-women/there-was-only-one-victim-at-steubenville-20130318-2gaxy.html

jessamineny
03-19-2013, 11:58 AM
Why can't there be multiple lessons?

icklekitty
03-19-2013, 12:18 PM
Where in anything I said was that punishing a victim? It's about empowering girls to protect themselves.

Reality is fucking reality. Orestes laid it out very plainly. If we stubbornly cling to the belief that rape shouldn't happen, and women shouldn't have to change their behaviors because it's patently unjust, we only end up doing women a disservice. We have to give young girls and women tools to thrive in reality, not the reality we wish existed.

You're saying that we need to teach the victims to behave differently. That's punishing them. If you want to do something "in this reality", teach the perpetrators to be good, not the victims to fear.

Here are some other examples along the same line "in this reality"

- teach gay people not to be too affectionate in public, because it might offend someone and they could get attacked
- teach black people to watch where they go outside, because if they're found near the scene of a crime, they're going to be falsely accused.
- teach Muslim people not to "look too Arabic" at the airport, because people might think they're terrorists and they could get detained


I don't see that as empowering in the slightest. I see it as promoting fear. It supports the argument that if you do see a drunk girl she must be fair game, because if she didn't want it, she wouldn't have drunk so much.

Yes, in this reality, women have to be vigilant. But that's a shit reality and one we should fight to change. It's the same fight that set black people free of their (physical) chains, and the same fight that's trying to give gay people a safe and happy existence. A woman shouldn't have to stay sober to avoid rape. Why should people have to run around in fear just so a few fucktards don't get the opportunity. It's letting them win.


Empowering would be to give them the freedom to live their lives the way they choose without falling into harm. Orestes was pointing out that one group of people get a freedom/privilege that another doesn't.




Whether this sense of priority is correct all depends on whether you think young girls' tendency to cut loose and party is a more grave issue than a tacitly rape-permissive culture


THIS. YES.




Why can't there be multiple lessons?


None of us on this side of the argument are saying that there isn't a drinking problem - I certainly wasn't if you look back. But we were all discussing a rape trial and someone brought up a huge spiel on the evils of teen drinking. A sense of priority is in order.

jessamineny
03-19-2013, 12:44 PM
And if you look back at everything I have said, I never said girls should stay sober. I said we should teach girls to be careful when drinking in social situations. Huge difference.



Here are some other examples along the same line "in this reality"

- teach gay people not to be too affectionate in public, because it might offend someone and they could get attacked
- teach black people to watch where they go outside, because if they're found near the scene of a crime, they're going to be falsely accused.
- teach Muslim people not to "look too Arabic" at the airport, because people might think they're terrorists and they could get detained

Do you really equate these with "Don't drink until you are mentally and/or physically unable to care for yourself?" For reals?



I don't see that as empowering in the slightest. I see it as promoting fear. It supports the argument that if you do see a drunk girl she must be fair game, because if she didn't want it, she wouldn't have drunk so much.

I guess I see the fearful response as the one that promotes men and boys as sexist, entitled cunts. Girls shouldn't be taught to be afraid of men and boys in general. I think it's completely rational, however, to teach them that it's dangerous to drink until they're unable to care for themselves.



Yes, in this reality, women have to be vigilant. But that's a shit reality and one we should fight to change.

I'm all for fighting to change the status quo. But in the meantime, we have to live within the shit reality that's dealt us.

allegro
03-19-2013, 12:59 PM
A must read
http://www.dailylife.com.au/all-about-women/there-was-only-one-victim-at-steubenville-20130318-2gaxy.html
Yes it is.


But the act of rape and its consequences isn’t a morality tale. We don’t trip over it in the street or accidentally spill it on someone’s clothes. Bystanders aren’t passive participants entitled to stand around wondering what’s going on, like walking into the wrong cinema halfway through a film and being slightly baffled by the drama unfolding before them. Rape is a deliberate act of violation and disregard that offers no silver lining lessons for anyone.

The Steubenville case has the potential to significantly influence how America (and perhaps the world) addresses rape culture and its attitudes towards offenders. The time for shrugged shoulders and platitudes about how boys behave when they get together is over. It’s perhaps unfortunate for Mays and Richmond that their particular crime became the poster case for a tougher approach to casual rapists, but it will hopefully set a precedent when dealing with similar violations of the law whose most tragic personal reflection is that they got caught. If you rape someone, you’re not making a mistake. You’re breaking the law. You don’t get to go home at the end of it and chalk it up to one of life’s quirky moments of truth.

Magtig
03-19-2013, 01:02 PM
You know, jessamineny mentioned that this whole line about 'teach women not to drink' is practical although it can feel an awful lot like blaming the victim, and even though it makes sense to teach people to be vigilant and not put themselves in vulnerable situations and I better understand where allegro's coming from now, it still feels exactly like blaming the victim. I'm very pro women learning self defense and being aware of their surroundings, but I also understand that I'm not their dad.

This entire conversation started when I posted the CNN video where the anchors sympathized with the rapists. If I recall correctly, allegro immediately launched into this entire line of reasoning about teaching young women not to drink. As I've said before, I do agree with the points she's making about reforming our cultural problem with binge drinking, and I recognize that this issue puts women at an increased risk of rape. However, I haven't been able to track down information that rape in teens has increased as an overall statistical trend since the introduction of alcoholic beverages aimed at women. I have tracked down information that rape in general has been on a slow and steady decline in the US for a number of years, despite it still being a huge problem, and also despite the fact that the US has a higher statistical rape rate than most European countries. I just haven't seen a strong connection with hard evidence, even though I agree that it makes sense given the connection that rape has to alcohol.

The point I want to make is this: when a conversation starts about rape culture and feminists (or anyone else) immediately start saying that women should be taught to not drink (which is absolutely punitive in nature) it doesn't really matter how correct they are. The timing and introduction of these points about alcohol create a correlation that matters. In a similar fashion the Bush administration convinced the US that Iraq had a connection to Al Qaeda simply by mentioning two true talking points next to each other over and over until the totally false connection between the two formed in minds of the people; it created a false cause. The same principle is at work here no matter how well intentioned.

allegro
03-19-2013, 01:56 PM
The point I want to make is this: when a conversation starts about rape culture and feminists (or anyone else) immediately start saying that women should be taught to not drink (which is absolutely punitive in nature) it doesn't really matter how correct they are.
I don't think I "immediately* jumped to a "girls shouldn't drink" conclusion in general; I actually said that *all teens* shouldn't drink. And of course, as Suketh said, this should only be discussed BEFORE a sexual assault or date assault happens and not after because after is too late and worthless to the victim (and/or to the perpetrators).

The thing that really really really bothers me about this particular case, maybe because I'm being motherly and feel some need to mother that girl, is from a general protective "health" standpoint, and how she was carted from party to party, completely unconscious and more and more naked as those boys removed more and more clothes without her knowledge, and NOBODY did ONE GOD DAMNED THING -- males or females -- to help her. POSSIBLY 50 TEENS, MALE AND FEMALE, AT DIFFERENT PARTIES SAW THIS GIRL COMPLETELY UNCONSCIOUS AND BEING CARTED AROUND FROM CAR TO PARTY TO CAR TO PARTY AND NOBODY TRIED TO HELP HER? Wasn't anybody concerned about her safety? That she may have alcohol poisoning? THAT SHE COULD DIE?? Didn't anybody wonder if somebody may have slipped her a Roofie? ALL those people seeing and posting pics of an unconscious girl and the best they can do is call her a "whore" and "raped" but none - girls or boys - could call authorities or a hospital or 911 or anything? Rape culture is one thing, and it's terrible, but she was UNCONSCIOUS. What if she DIED? Then we'd have a MURDER case, too, and those kids would be standing around scratching their heads, going "um, well, we were drunk." Didn't ANY of those kids have the compassion to help a girl who could have DIED? DON'T ANY OF THEM HAVE SISTERS OR MOTHERS??? WHERE WERE ANY GOD DAMNED PARENTS DURING THIS BULLSHIT? NO parents home at all while they're taking a half-or-increasingly-naked and UNCONSCIOUS 16-yr-old from party to party?

THIS IS ALL JUST FUCKING NUTS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0drRrNWpNE&feature=youtu.be

^^^^ THEY'RE SAYING THAT SHE IS DEAD!!!!

I CAN'T IMAGINE BEING A TEEN AT A PARTY AND NOT SAYING, "WHOA, THAT GIRL IS REALLY DRUNK, GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM HER YOU MORONS" AND PICKING UP THE PHONE AND CALLING 911 FOR CHRIST SAKE!

As to the female CNN anchor "sympathizing with the rapist," I saw it more like her making a (failed) attempt to warn boys that if you do this, too, you will ruin your life (because you will be a registered sex offender for the rest of your life). I guess it can be viewed from different angles but I didn't get the same knee-jerk "she's feeling sorry for those boys" vibe as others. She's a dumb anchor, she fucked up. Maybe I'm old and naive and, well, I don't take journalists that seriously.

THIS IS EXCELLENT (http://ideas.time.com/2013/03/17/steubenville-rape-guilty-verdict-the-case-that-social-media-won/). The social media aspect of this, with ALL THOSE WITNESSES WHO WEREN'T EVEN THERE BUT SAW IT VIA TWITTER AND FACEBOOK, also did NOTHING.

Magtig
03-19-2013, 02:09 PM
POSSIBLY 50 TEENS, MALE AND FEMALE, AT DIFFERENT PARTIES SAW THIS GIRL COMPLETELY UNCONSCIOUS AND BEING CARTED AROUND FROM CAR TO PARTY TO CAR TO PARTY AND NOBODY TRIED TO HELP HER? Wasn't anybody concerned about her safety? That she may have alcohol poisoning? THAT SHE COULD DIE?? Didn't anybody wonder if somebody may have slipped her a Roofie? ALL those people seeing and posting pics of an unconscious girl and the best they can do is call her a "whore" and "raped" but none - girls or boys - could call authorities or a hospital or 911 or anything?
Yeah, that's a problem that scientists have done alarming studies on for some time now (see: Milgram experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment)). The only way out of it is to think (awareness) our way out, apparently. It's one of those awful and inescapable parts of human nature that we've inherited from millions of years of evolution.

---

Shifting gears back to rape culture, my friend said something recently that made me think, "Fuck yeah! Let's try putting the guys on the spot for a change."

Jeff Frost (https://www.facebook.com/magtig) Speaking of Hey!Zeus, isn't it interesting that a crowd that typically has a hardline stance on taking responsibility for your own actions always seems to find ways to blame rape victims instead of rapists?
Friend: Yep...

"What was she wearing?"

"Where was her boyfriend?"

"Has she 'cried rape' before?"

"Is she a virgin?"

"Was she drinking?"

"Was she being flirtatious?"

"Was she behaving provocatively?"

....

WHAT THE GODDAMNED FUCK!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?

How about this:

"What makes you think you have the right to force yourself on another human being and shove your filthy cock into them?????!!!!????"

Why the FUCK don't we ask THAT question for a change?????

Jinsai
03-19-2013, 02:11 PM
The thing is... all teens drink. I can't speak for anyone else in here, but when I was a teenager, there was always drinking at parties. It's a social institution.

Maybe I went to different parties or hung out with different groups of people, but the events here are such a far cry from anything I've ever seen it's making me feel a little nuts that we're discussing it as an issue even vaguely related to irresponsible drinking.

allegro
03-19-2013, 03:07 PM
Yeah, that's a problem that scientists have done alarming studies on for some time now
That's no excuse.

Jinsai: I was totally serious about being a teen in the 70s: The drinking age in Michigan was 18 but we teens didn't drink much or none at all (I very rarely drank, maybe I had a glass of Reunite wine twice in my teens?) I didn't know anybody who drank, either, but we smoked a LOT of pot. But not booze, we knew kids who drank beer sometimes but they nursed one Miller GIQ for hours. This "all teens drink" stuff is completely foreign to me because I didn't drink and didn't see it happen, I've never seen a passed-out person EVER actually.

edit: note that I am not condoning pot usage, I'm just saying we didn't drink.

Jinsai
03-19-2013, 03:23 PM
Oh come on now. There was drinking, you can't fool me. I've seen Dazed and Confused, I know what's up.

Still, I don't think responding to this story by addressing the issue of teen drinking (especially not with the suggestion that we fix the issue by legalizing pot) is going to accomplish much. Teens will still drink, and they'll drink even more if adults tell them not to drink so much. And yes, teens today are fucking stupid. They've apparently invented something called butt-chuggging.

Stupidity isn't the issue for me here though, it's morality, and when some jocks rape a passed out girl, the only response to that should be "fuck you, we're trying you as an adult you sack of shit, rot in jail." Not "oh, they had such promising futures, but now they have to go to juvie for a whole year." We've somehow become so addicted to drama that our news anchors project automatic sympathy for some crying rapist. Meanwhile, twitter blows up and some truly disgusting people have been provoked to harass the rape victim?

allegro
03-19-2013, 03:27 PM
Oh come on now. There was drinking, you can't fool me. I've seen Dazed and Confused, I know what's up.
That was in Texas. And they're drinking beer. NOT vodka.


Stupidity isn't the issue for me here though, it's morality
My stupidity comments were aimed only at all those kids who did absolutely nothing to help. Those who did nothing should be charged with criminal charges, as well.


Still, I don't think responding to this story by addressing the issue of teen drinking
I was not and am not "responding to this story" alone. I'm talking about two distinctly different topics. I think I've made that clear about 900 times but it appears that nobody wants to discuss that in the GENERAL HEADLINES thread. Sorry.

Leviathant
03-19-2013, 03:29 PM
The thing is... all teens drink. I can't speak for anyone else in here, but when I was a teenager, there was always drinking at parties. It's a social institution.

I'm here to point out that actually, not all teens drink. I actually don't think I was properly drunk until I was 23. And that has nothing to do with religion, my dad's a fan of beer but not an alcoholic. I just... chose not to drink. I'd still hang out at parties where people drank, I'd meet up with friends at the bar, but I'd just have water.

That's not to say there isn't an insanely pervasive alcoholic culture in this country (and many others). It's seriously insane how fucking fired up people get about their booze, and how tolerant everyone is of all the really terrible side effects, both physical and cultural... but that's another discussion.


Maybe I went to different parties or hung out with different groups of people, but the events here are such a far cry from anything I've ever seen it's making me feel a little nuts that we're discussing it as an issue even vaguely related to irresponsible drinking.

Agreed - you not might infer if from my previous paragraph, but I actually would happily embrace alcohol prohibition. I don't know that I've ever typed that out on the internet because it is a position that, in this country, is easily less acceptable than something as totally nutball as young earth kookiness. But for as much as I think we'd be better off sober, that has no bearing on what's going on here. That's a small sliver in a greater, rotten cultural pie.

DigitalChaos
03-19-2013, 04:07 PM
Does anyone really think these guys weren't massive douchebags when sober too?

Also, add another vote for "didn't drink until early 20's." Granted, my reasoning was probably related to my heavy contempt for tribalism. I knew only one other person in my school that didn't drink.

jessamineny
03-19-2013, 05:23 PM
You know, jessamineny mentioned that this whole line about 'teach women not to drink' is practical although it can feel an awful lot like blaming the victim...

I went back and re-read my posts, just to make sure, but I never ever said this.

Magtig
03-19-2013, 07:12 PM
This is part of what I was reacting to:


It's just so difficult because continually women aren't believed, are blamed, are shamed, are attacked for "ruining lives"... so any suggestion that we acknowledge the existence of personal responsibility can reflexively feel like just more of the same.

Maybe the language was slightly hyperbolic and should have been worded "drink responsibly" instead of "not drink." I don't think it changes much though.

Deepvoid
03-19-2013, 08:16 PM
If you drink too much and you consent to a sexual relation and then you regret it afterwards, you should be educated on how to drink responsibly. Yes you can blame the alcohol in that case.

With that being said, if you're too drunk and someone rape you, you should not be lectured in regard to you drinking in any way, shape or form.

The dudes are lucky to be minors because they will only spend time in juve.
They should've been treated as adults, sentenced as adults.

orestes
03-19-2013, 08:49 PM
They should've been treated as adults, sentenced as adults.

This is the thing I don't understand. In Judge Lipp's statement from the bench, he emphasized that rape was "profane" and "ugly" and yet they were not charged as adults. You know, because they're still children and they couldn't possibly have a firm understanding of their actions. And yet, when a teen performs similarly heinous crimes, such as murder, they're tried as an adult.

allegro
03-19-2013, 09:20 PM
I wonder if it was to get a speedy court hearing because it might take years in regular court? The judge said they "could have been" tried as adults but did he say why not? Ohio has a special statute that considers digital assault as rape; in most other states this would be sexual abuse or similar and
crime carries a different sentencing guideline so i imagine that's where this judge got the sentence. These boys did not have a jury, either; they don't get that privilege when tried as as minors in that state, evidently.

These boys will have to register as sex offenders for the rest of their lives. That's their real "punishment." The sentences they received wouldn't be much different if they were adults, unfortunately.

Jinsai
03-19-2013, 11:21 PM
Here's an interesting perspective that I thought was well articulated (http://bellejarblog.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/i-am-not-your-wife-sister-or-daughter/)

Max Leo
03-20-2013, 02:12 AM
I've seen like a billion drunk unconscious or semi-unconscious girls since I was 13 (I'm currently 34) and I've never thought about raping or even touching any of them (except, maybe, to help them, taking them to a hospital or something like that), now I feel stupid for all the missing opportunities to get laid. :confused:

And I thought that comitting a crime while being high or drunk was different to being the victim of a crime while being high or drunk, but some people here are comparing the act of killing innocent people while driving drunk with being raped in a party where you've drunk too much... :confused:

slave2thewage
03-20-2013, 02:41 AM
when a teen performs similarly heinous crimes, such as murder, they're tried as an adult.
I still think rape is much more of a worse crime than murder. At least the victim doesn't have to keep on dealing with the pain when murder's involved.

allegro
03-20-2013, 02:43 AM
The prison system is so overcrowded, the only people who are in prison for a long time are, well, not nearly enough people.

There are also rape kits that sit there in storage rooms completely untouched. Nobody seems to know why, either.


Here's an interesting perspective that I thought was well articulated (http://bellejarblog.wordpress.com/2013/03/18/i-am-not-your-wife-sister-or-daughter/)
I don't understand that because people use the same analogy (brother, father, son) when males are victims of senseless crimes where nobody helped, while wondering about people's lack of compassion and not attempting to help in any way.

orestes
03-20-2013, 08:01 AM
Prisons are overcrowded because of the skewed drug laws in this country and three strikes laws, for starters, but that's another kettle of fish.

littlemonkey613
03-20-2013, 12:20 PM
So at my University (USC) right now I am trying to fight "hook-up" culture especially at fraternities (which are literally rape dens).

I wrote an article here about it. http://theinterlopersc.wordpress.com/2013/03/07/uscs-hook-up-culture-is-violent-and-a-danger-to-all-students/

Now there IS an inherent problem with telling the victimized population not to drink. It's not fair. I have been getting shit faced with my buds since I was 17 and I don't think its fair for ANY MAN to tell me I shouldn't have been doing that because of rape. Why? Because it was what I wanted to do and how I wanted to have fun. And I wasn't going to let the reality of this disgusting world which I grew up in, the fact that there is a 25% chance that I would get raped in college, and knowing so many friends who have been victim of rape stop me. It's my little protest. Now you can call it dumb or stupid but its my life and damn if I'm going to let the fact that so much of this population doesn't see me as human to keep me from having fun. That being said....

Education about the realities of danger is different than putting any level of responsibility on a teen girl who binge drinks in relation to rape (be careful with your rhetoric).

Anyways alcohol is used by rapists and predators in a rapist predator culture to convince people that there is such thing as "blurry consent". Allegro is right how coercion and rape are now called "drunken hook ups", intellectually eliminating the fact of a sexual aggressor. That being said if you ever say the words "well she shouldn't have been" you are promoting rape culture even if you don't understand why. You are.

At my University rape happens every week multiple times and the school doesn't want to admit its happening, fraternities and the school work together to make sure the reality is covered up, and the defensiveness and power of the Greek system keeps anyone from doing anything about it. I have been going undercover to parties a lot and am going to write an expose saying the names of the fraternities and what I eye witnessed in them. Im going to get killed. W/e fuck this.

Oh also, "teen girls shouldn't binge drink" does an emotional number on girls who were binge drinking when they were raped. That alone should make you be very careful. I have a few friends who were raped in that state and they would holler that they had THE RIGHT to live and have fun without being raped. And they are RIGHT.

Magtig
03-20-2013, 12:28 PM
Honestly, I kind of hate that this whole thread is basically a discussion on the drinking habits of women and whether it's okay to brow beat them regarding their own culpability in rape or not. I get the practical argument, and if I were a father I would absolutely counsel my daughter not to put herself in a compromising situation, but that's shit that every good parent should do with their kid regardless of gender. Basically, the focus seems completely off to me.

littlemonkey613
03-20-2013, 12:48 PM
THANK YOU!

Yes one of the biggest aspects of rape culture is all these discussions turns into what GIRLS should be doing and pretending that its actually half of the problem.

LOLOL

No the biggest contributor to this problem is that a huge chunk of the population doesn't think women are people.
Stop telling ME what to do when such a huge number of my peers do not recognize MY humanity.

orestes
03-20-2013, 01:31 PM
^ ^ THIS to infinity.

In all the discussion about drinking I don't recall anyone mentioning the fact that drinks, whether they be alcoholic or not, get spiked with date rape drugs. So even if a woman did the "responsible" thing and took defensive measures, there's still the chance she could get raped.

allegro
03-20-2013, 01:49 PM
I don't think it's good to brow beat any female in this discussion and certainly never a victim under any circumstances. I think what Littlemonkey is doing on campus is amazing. At least she's actually DOING something to help young women, Admittedly, I'm anti-drinking in general because I think it's awful and dangerous. But if young women on campuses are fully understanding that nonconsensual sex is not a "drunken hookup" and they understand that males are often deliberately getting them drunk in order to assault them, then that's a step in the right direction, I will never like teens drinking; it's illegal and teen girls are already vulnerable to these goons and I think they should be able to collect evidence or call for help (which they can't do if they're too drunk) but I'm the minority on this one, and too many people evidently love alcohol too much to see its dangers, so I will no longer discuss it in this forum, I promise, My lips are zipped.

allegro
03-20-2013, 01:52 PM
So even if a woman did the "responsible" thing and took defensive measures, there's still the chance she could get raped.
I have friends who've been drugged; luckily, they noticed symptoms and ran before anything happened, But, yes, women need to keep an eye on their beverages, whatever kind. None of us females can ever totally prevent being sexually assaulted.

Littkemonkey, I am from a generation of women who have had the fear of being sexually assaulted hovering over us our entire lives. We pretty much gave up on society or law enforcement helping us or on men making any significant overall change. Ultimately, my generation (and my mother's, she taught me judo at an early age) learned not to rely on anyone else but ourselves for our safety, so maybe we are more defensive than your generation (yours wants to do whatever you want with freedom of not being assaulted, which would be a wonderful world but for my generation that's like no bad neighborhoods in Detroit). I guess we think of it as being like "street smarts" vs being paranoid. But if your generation and those after yours can find a way to change this, it will benefit all females. You are doing admirable work to this end. That being said, I'm still terrified of living in a world where trust is so horribly violated. My 75-yr-old mother is very trusting of kind people. I had to tell her the story of the elderly woman living in a high rise on Sheridan Road who accepted the offer of a stranger to help her carry her groceries up to her apartment and then that kind stranger brutally raped her. The woman was in her 80s.

orestes
03-20-2013, 02:18 PM
Meanwhile, "young men acting like boys". (http://www.thefrisky.com/2013-03-20/13-year-old-girl-bullied-online-after-alleged-rape-by-two-torrington-ct-football-players/#.UUoJhAmQC8Y.twitter)

allegro
03-20-2013, 02:30 PM
So at my University (USC) right now I am trying to fight "hook-up" culture especially at fraternities (which are literally rape dens).

I wrote an article here about it. http://theinterlopersc.wordpress.com/2013/03/07/uscs-hook-up-culture-is-violent-and-a-danger-to-all-students/

The most disturbing thing about this page is that it displays fully the fact that a large proportion of our student body cannot recognize violence when they see it. When I called out a post that read, “#83 To the girl from last semester that only let me fuck her for 3 minutes because she was ‘Too sore from getting fucked by someone else the night before’, thanks for the blue balls. #throwback”, another student replied that I needed to reevaluate what I saw as violence and go to “Tijuana” or “the ghetto” to see what was actually up. Actually, sir, it is you that needs to reevaluate what you see as violence. You and every other student who liked any of the posts on this page.


At my University rape happens every week multiple times and the school doesn't want to admit its happening, fraternities and the school work together to make sure the reality is covered up, and the defensiveness and power of the Greek system keeps anyone from doing anything about it. I have been going undercover to parties a lot and am going to write an expose saying the names of the fraternities and what I eye witnessed in them. Im going to get killed. W/e fuck this..


Ugh, God, honestly this all makes me want to switch teams and move to a remote island of peaceful lesbians.

Jinsai
03-20-2013, 02:41 PM
strange to read people talking about USC frat culture in this discussion, but it reminds me of when I was going to USC... I was walking with a few friends (one of whom was female) down "frat row," when some guy ran out of one of the frat houses, grabbed the girl in our group, and ran with her screaming back into his frat house.

We ran over there and got her back... it was surreal, they thought it was funny, and claimed it was a joke. I still can't understand why I didn't contact the university about it. The whole incident was so surreal.

Deepvoid
03-20-2013, 02:59 PM
strange to read people talking about USC frat culture in this discussion, but it reminds me of when I was going to USC... I was walking with a few friends (one of whom was female) down "frat row," when some guy ran out of one of the frat houses, grabbed the girl in our group, and ran with her screaming back into his frat house.

We ran over there and got her back... it was surreal, they thought it was funny, and claimed it was a joke. I still can't understand why I didn't contact the university about it. The whole incident was so surreal.

That's one thing we don't have here in Quebec ... Frat/Sorority Houses and their parties. I honestly can't comment on those because the only "image" of those are the ones from movies and I don't know if they are portrait accurately.
It sure seems like there's a lot initiations which could lead to some suspicious behaviors...

allegro
03-20-2013, 03:10 PM
They don't need initiation rituals; a bunch of macho jerks living in a frat house full of testosterone and alcohol leads to Rape House.

We didn't have much of a Greek presence at my college; that was a big reason why I chose that college.

kdrcraig
03-20-2013, 03:22 PM
Frats on big campuses give the rest of us a bad name. I'm not saying there weren't any scumbags in the frats at my school, cause there definitely were, but pulling dumb shit would still get them in trouble with the other members of their frat and it definitely wasn't encouraged and accepted. Shit, I'm a KDR brother and I remember going to PSU to visit those guys and they were all fucking assholes to us, and we're in the same damn frat!

marodi
03-20-2013, 10:34 PM
I saw this posted on nin.com and I thought I'd post it here too; it's a good read:

Henry Rollins thoughts about the case (http://henryrollins.com/dispatch/detail/dispatch_03-17-12_los_angeles/)

littlemonkey613
03-20-2013, 11:41 PM
But if young women on campuses are fully understanding that nonconsensual sex is not a "drunken hookup" and they understand that males are often deliberately getting them drunk in order to assault them, then that's a step in the right direction

Hahaha yeah no I was in no way implying that most people think this way. You are 100% right in this regard. Most people don't understand this and its not talked about on a mass scale the way it needs to be. Mostly because it gives more of a face to the people doing the assaulting. Everyone pretty much agrees its dangerous to get shit faced if your a girl, but no one is willing to actually admit its because so many of our fellow students are willing to attack us. Its this weird psychological game people play at.

I totally understand what you are saying and I actually don't disagree with you. I guess the problem is that what I've seen is when people focus on the alcohol aspect it is more often than not accepted as a scapegoat for the atrocities being committed by actual people. If my school sent this message about drinking while also admitting that a large chunk of the students who attend their institution rape it would be a completely different story. This is why I plan on forcing the issue ;).

I didn't mean to make you feel like you couldn't talk about what you want to and I'm sorry for that.

But yeah basically what I see is "It's risky to drink because sexual assault is just a reality". AND WHO IS DOING THIS ASSAULTING USC?! WHO?!

A few months ago I was at a frat house and my UCLA friend saw a guy lead a really drunk girl upstairs. My friend ran upstairs, searched all the rooms, grabbed her and brought her down and hid her in the bathroom until the guy stopped looking for her. We asked her her name and where she lived and she could literally barely answer she was so shitfaced.....Idk why I didn't report this. Like Jinsai was saying in the moment these things can really take you off guard they are so surreal.

the duder
03-21-2013, 07:25 AM
I tend to like Henry Rollins' perspective on this (http://henryrollins.com/dispatch/detail/dispatch_03-17-12_los_angeles/) (and many, many other things).

I am all for justice being served, as well as for these young men to - hopefully - be rehabilitated. But the points that Rollins brings up are much bigger than the case. Much of this, I feel, is due to the culture of objectificaiton. Objectification of feelings, of urges, of impulses. Doing what "feels right" no matter the consequence. A lot of this is enabled by others, like the coach in question, who have come to power in such a culture looking to protect what he felt was behavior - aka the "boys being boys" falsehood - typical of that culture.

So many bigger questions that need discussed, and not that there will ever be answers, but at least more constructive, critical, progressive dialogue.

slave2thewage
03-21-2013, 09:07 AM
How exactly were these boys considered to be "promising"? Because they could knock a ball around? Jesus, they're bound to end world hunger and find the HIV vaccine.

icklekitty
03-21-2013, 10:20 AM
Yeah but nobody gives a shit about saving fags and darkies. Let's all shower together and listen to hip-hop. HURRR!

slave2thewage
03-21-2013, 10:28 AM
And wearing hideously out-of-date fashion.

Dra508
03-22-2013, 10:53 AM
I agree this is a complex issue that discussion can push towards a single cause or single solution.

I sort of like what Henry Rollins had to say about it:


Put women’s studies in high school the curriculum from war heroes to politicians, writers, speakers, activists, revolutionaries and let young people understand that women have been kicking ass in high threat conditions for ages and they are worthy of respect.

Total sex ed in school. Learn how it all works. Learn what the definition of statutory rape is and that it is rape, that date rape is rape, that rape is rape.

Deepvoid
03-22-2013, 12:35 PM
You don't need sex ed to figure out that when a girls says "no" it should be the end of it.

staleincense
03-22-2013, 12:45 PM
You don't need sex ed to figure out that when a girls says "no" it should be the end of it.
Hopefully, no. Unfortuantely, there are some people in this world who find it hard to grasp what should in theory be a simple concept, so I'd say it's neccesary.

the duder
03-22-2013, 12:56 PM
You don't need sex ed to figure out that when a girls says "no" it should be the end of it.
No. You need FAR more than that. I think by "total sex ed", talking about sexual thoughts, habits and beliefs are the components that are necessary and missing in sex ed. Instead of writing a refferal or otherwise punishing a student who snickers at the word "penis" or "vagina" in the nearly non-existent sex-ed curriculum, public schools need to get their heads out of their asses and include ALL of these topics into the curriculum.

littlemonkey613
03-22-2013, 02:53 PM
You don't need sex ed to figure out that when a girls says "no" it should be the end of it.

The other problem is that people think consent is a lack of no or a lack of protest. We need to start preaching about enthusiastic consent.

Deepvoid
03-22-2013, 04:57 PM
What is "enthusiastic consent"? First time I'm hearing this term. Sounds like you are making something simple, more ambiguous.
Is there a simpler term than "no"? I don't think so.

When someone says "no", moral value, basic education, common sense should kick in and make you back the hell off. If you insist, you are flirting with the "intent to rape" line.

the duder
03-22-2013, 06:39 PM
Louis CK kinda sums up my thoughts on "consent" pretty well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4hNaFkbZYU

If I had learned about how to talk to girls about this sort of thing, and they had learned how to talk to dudes about this sort of thing, this clip wouldn't be somewhat humorous/relatable. Furthermore, the reason I decided to post this example is: I've been there. Fooling around with a girl, she stops me, I stop any forward action, and the next morning it was "why'd you stop?". I reply "because you said so?". Mixed signals. It happens, and BOTH parties need PRACTICE in TALKING about sexual behaviors, emotions and feelings. The argument of "well, their parents need to teach it!" is a fucking cop out. More productive discussion is necessary.

allegro
03-22-2013, 09:51 PM
What is "enthusiastic consent"?
Is there a simpler term than "no"? I don't think so.
I think what she means is what Henry Rollins is talking about: the Steubenville girl was not able to say "no." Or, sometimes people are impaired and aren't saying no, but they are not in a position to really say yes, either. And both situations should be interpreted as NO. Because that's the common sense, respectful, non-selfish way to treat a human being. A male who RESPECTS females would not take advantage of a female who is not in a position to say yes or no, and would honor her as a respectable human being with the right to make a fully coherent choice, and he would not treat her as a piece of meat who's there for his immediate and easy pleasure. Obviously, this is NOT the prevalent male attitude, otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion, or those USC stories Littlemonkey conveyed, or the statistics, or that new rape law in India.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2013/03/21/india-rape-law-passes-parliament_n_2924462.html

Dra508
03-22-2013, 11:51 PM
You don't need sex ed to figure out that when a girls says "no" it should be the end of it.
I think we do need more comprehensive curriculum. There is no gray area here. Rape is rape and we need to teach young men that there are no fine lines.

I'm challenged with the girl side.

littlemonkey613
03-23-2013, 03:34 AM
What is "enthusiastic consent"? First time I'm hearing this term. Sounds like you are making something simple, more ambiguous.
Is there a simpler term than "no"? I don't think so.

When someone says "no", moral value, basic education, common sense should kick in and make you back the hell off. If you insist, you are flirting with the "intent to rape" line.

No I agree with you I am speaking to the reality of paralysis that many women feel when they are intimidated by someone who wants sex from them. My friend from UCLA did a survey of 600 female college students and 1/4 reported that they had intercourse during the last year without wanting to at a party and 1/3 said they gave oral without wanting to at a party in the last year. Many answered this had happened more than 10 times. (I can link you the results if you want)

Sometimes even when someone is in the right mind to say yes, they cannot muster up the courage to say no. Even yeses can be problematic when this is the reality. Enthusiastic consent would take this into account.

the duder
03-23-2013, 08:21 AM
I think what she means is what Henry Rollins is talking about: the Steubenville girl was not able to say "no." Or, sometimes people are impaired and aren't saying no, but they are not in a position to really say yes, either.
This is similar to first responder training I've been a part of, as well as decisions I've had to make as a first responder; if a patient is under the influence of drugs or alcohol the decision to summon more advanced care is mine. They are not in a position to act in their own best interest. One example: while lifeguarding, a girl blacked out on the beach during senior week and her friends came up to me and said "uhh, she's not waking up." I immediately activated our emergency action plan and went over to where they were. By the time I had arrived on scene, she had since regained consciousness. And she reeked of alcohol. EMS had already been summoned, as she was unconscious. I stayed with her and monitored her condition until EMS arrived. Although she and her friends all freaked out about us calling - as they were all drunk and underage - I had to act in her best interest.

Now, at a frat party, there are no first responders to assist in making the right decision. Anyone takes a calculated risk when they go to a party where copious amounts of drugs, alcohol and hormones are in play. More light needs to be shined in these dark corners of frat houses -as well as the houses of families who OK underage drinking - to show that it is there where the seeds of rape culture germinate. With that being said, I feel that the best way for this to happen, is for situations like this to be addressed in middle - high school sex/health education. Ignoring the fact that things like this happen does a service to nobody.

Also: this. (http://www.upworthy.com/the-shortest-psa-on-how-to-handle-drunk-girls-passed-out-on-your-couch-ever?g=2&c=ufb1)

allegro
03-23-2013, 09:30 AM
Also: this. (http://www.upworthy.com/the-shortest-psa-on-how-to-handle-drunk-girls-passed-out-on-your-couch-ever?g=2&c=ufb1)
yes yes yes yes yes (http://www.thenation.com/blog/173370/only-yes-means-yes-what-steubenvilles-rape-trial-reminds-us-about-sexual-consent?c=upworthy)


But the absence of a “no” is not the same thing as the presence of a “yes.” And until American culture and law frames sexual consent as proactively, enthusiastically given, there will be no justice for rape victims. It’s time for the US to lose the “ ‘no’ means no” model for understanding sexual assault and focus on “only ‘yes’ means yes” instead.

Deepvoid
03-23-2013, 11:04 AM
Ok I see. I agree with the "yes" model as well.
However, there's a long way to go to get there since people are having a tough time understanding the "no" model.

DigitalChaos
03-25-2013, 06:44 PM
Has anyone addressed the fact that allowing yourself to get blackout drunk around a bunch of rape-bros is probably a bad idea? And that there is some failed personal responsibility of the victim in many of these situations?

littlemonkey613
03-25-2013, 07:08 PM
Has anyone addressed the fact that allowing yourself to get blackout drunk around a bunch of rape-bros is probably a bad idea? And that there is some failed personal responsibility of the victim in many of these situations?

-_-
This rhetoric is the epitome of rape culture. Framing being harder to rape as a responsibility is victim blaming. If you want to talk about taking precautions in respect to a dangerous reality don't do it in a matter that even remotely flirts with the idea of it being a matter of "personal responsibility" on the part of victims. Society won't admit that the peers and sons of so many ARE rape-bros. Instead we create an invisible boogey man then blame girls and women for not realizing they were surrounded by rapists and potential predators. This makes her even more of a victim not someone who chose to shirk "personal responsibility." God damn.

This girl trusted that her fellow students would not attack her and treat her body like a piece of meat. She was failed by them, her community, our society and all who refuse to really tackle this issue. She did not fail herself. She did nothing except try and enjoy the same privilege that "rape-bros" enjoy every week without being criticized by anyone.

We should be teaching girls about the real danger and reality of so many rapists in this world and the reality that alcohol plays in rape culture, but we should also be fighting to protect those who choose to partake in drinking, as they have every right to do so.

It just drives me insane. There are so many rapists that girls are supposed to avoid drinking and yet we refuse to take any steps towards calling out those who attack people left and right. We just let them be in a vacuum of inevitable existence. It's just the nature of these "bros" that us women have to deal with "responsibly".

What everyone is refusing to recognize is that rape culture exists just as heavily outside of binge drinking culture, it is just more nuanced and culturally accepted. (Sexual expectations in relationships and marriage, the normalization of second asks, the right to expect, I can go on forever)

We are constantly creating archetypes for rapists. Random scary men in alleys, lurkers in the night, now frat bros and drunk teens. We need to wake up and broaden our understanding of this issue.

Magtig
03-25-2013, 09:42 PM
Has anyone addressed the fact that allowing yourself to get blackout drunk around a bunch of rape-bros is probably a bad idea? And that there is some failed personal responsibility of the victim in many of these situations?
Jesus Christ, we've had this discussion in this thread ad nauseum.

As I've mentioned before, this endless discussion about a rape victim's supposed culpability is exactly what happens when you focus on drinking instead of the real problem: blame the victim culture/rape culture. This whole thread is about if a woman who was gang banged while unconscious, drank too much. Granted, that's a little simplified, but it's the gist of it.

DigitalChaos
03-26-2013, 02:29 PM
Jesus Christ, we've had this discussion in this thread ad nauseum.

Exactly... I was being facetious!

I still think it is ridiculous that people want to ignore the failed personal responsibility. If I had a daughter, I would tell her that there are a lot of dangers in the world. If you are going to do something that massively drops your ability to be a functioning human (like getting blackout drunk) you need to be aware that you are increasing the chances of something bad happening. Maybe you will become a victim or maybe you will create a victim. Timothy Leary's "Set and Setting" sums up the rules for consumption of psychoactive chemicals. There are very few places that you can safely lose consciousness with the outside world.

But I don't have a daughter. I have a son... and I will tell him the same thing! You are never going to purify the world of assholes that harm others. Be aware of the dangers in the world and be aware of what increases or decreases your chances of being involved in something bad.

DigitalChaos
03-26-2013, 02:32 PM
We should be teaching girls about the real danger and reality of so many rapists in this world and the reality that alcohol plays in rape culture, but we should also be fighting to protect those who choose to partake in drinking, as they have every right to do so.
We have a winner!
But how about we teach EVERYONE instead of just girls?

Dra508
03-26-2013, 04:59 PM
But I don't have a daughter. I have a son... and I will tell him the same thing! You are never going to purify the world of assholes that harm others. Be aware of the dangers in the world and be aware of what increases or decreases your chances of being involved in something bad.You're going to tell him not to rape too, right?

DigitalChaos
03-26-2013, 06:26 PM
You're going to tell him not to rape too, right?

I'd tell my daughter the same! Though really... that is something you shouldn't have to explicitly say if you are a decent parent. It would fall into the basic moral of not harming others.

"don't harm others" and "don't be naive of the potential dangers that surround you" will take care of a lot of parenting topics.

littlemonkey613
03-26-2013, 06:46 PM
Maybe you will become a victim or maybe you will create a victim.

What the fuck?! Do you know anyone who was raped when they were black out drunk? Try and say this shit to those people face to face. You have no idea how horrible it is to see this bullshit being written when so many victims have been my friends. WE DO NOT HAVE A PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE OUR OWN RAPES LESS LIKELY. Rape culture is EVERYWHERE. It's there if I'm sober, it's there if I'm in a relationship, It's there in marriage, It's there if I'm at school or at home, If I'm at a party, or walking down the street.

Women's fundamental problem is that we exist. The history of tackling rape IS telling women what not to do. What your saying is not new, its not enlightening, its not some stern truth no one wants to hear. What you are saying is representative of the majority of rhetoric in regards to rape historically and still to this day. We are in a desperate fight to turn that around but that can't happen when you choose to express your point this way.


Though really... that is something you shouldn't have to explicitly say if you are a decent parent.

In case you were wondering why this world is so full of the reality of rapists...... THIS IS IT. Not only do you have a responsibility to explicitly say this, but one to say it over and over, in a way that details what is consent and what is not, what is coercion, what is sexual intimidation and in a way that accounts for the unequal world we are currently living in where women are not raised to have the same sexual agency as men.

Magtig
03-26-2013, 07:24 PM
Exactly... I was being facetious!

I still think it is ridiculous that people want to ignore the failed personal responsibility.
Then you were not being facetious at all, and now you're lying about it, which is definitely ridiculous.

Not one single thing you've subsequently said has added one iota of anything new that wasn't already discussed previously. If you would bother to read all those replies you'd find that personal responsibility and the link between increased risk for harm and intoxication was discussed ad naseum as well. But for the millionth time, none of this focus seems to be in the right place so thanks once again for bringing the conversation right back around to what the victim did wrong rather than the fucked up culture that fosters this awful behavior in the first place.

The incredibly high level of male patriarchy and just flat out stupidity that surrounds this issue, even where normally intelligent people are involved, is incredibly discouraging. It's crushing. For fuck sake, this bullshit drinking conversation was started by a feminist! We've got some serious problems here that need some serious discussion, but all we're talking about is, "She drank too much."

hollowed_point
03-26-2013, 08:11 PM
Then you were not being facetious at all, and now you're lying about it, which is definitely ridiculous.

Not one single thing you've subsequently said has added one iota of anything new that wasn't already discussed previously. If you would bother to read all those replies you'd find that personal responsibility and the link between increased risk for harm and intoxication was discussed ad naseum as well. But for the millionth time, none of this focus seems to be in the right place so thanks once again for bringing the conversation right back around to what the victim did wrong rather than the fucked up culture that fosters this awful behavior in the first place.

The incredibly high level of male patriarchy and just flat out stupidity that surrounds this issue, even where normally intelligent people are involved, is incredibly discouraging. It's crushing. For fuck sake, this bullshit drinking conversation was started by a feminist! We've got some serious problems here that need some serious discussion, but all we're talking about is, "She drank too much."

I don't usually get involved in these types of discussions, but I have to say that I think what DigitalChaos was saying is that all of us, whatever our gender, have to learn some level of personal responsibility when it comes to alcohol/drugs. His comment could have easily been arguing that you're more likely to fall down a flight of stairs, choke to death on your own vomit, be robbed, beaten, or otherwise abused while extremely intoxicated, so it's best to know your limits. I seriously don't believe that he's trying to pin the blame for this on the victim at all, just saying that when it comes to drugs, alcohol, and teenagers, bad decisions are bound to be made, sometimes with horrific results.

ex: I had a friend in college, a male, who drank until he blacked out while rushing. His frat overlords decided it would be a good idea to drag his lifeless body to the dormitories and leave him in the middle of the hallway at 1 a.m. I just happened to be going to another friends room on the same floor and happened to find him asphyxiating on his own vomit and was able to roll him over and call an ambulance to have his stomach pumped. If I hadn't found him, he would've died. He learned a very difficult lesson about not relying on others to take care of you while you're drunk, but rather to be VERY wary of others when you pass out.

The victim in this case suffered terribly, and it is fucking TRAGIC that the town and the people in it (even CNN for fucks sake) have acted like the guys are victims in any way, but it's important to not forget to teach our kids the reality of this world: people are capable of sick, sick behavior. Always be vigilant of your surroundings and make intelligent decisions.

I have a daughter (21 mnths), and I fully intend to empower her with the knowledge that yes, in an ideal world, men wouldn't ever act this way and awful things like this would never happen, but we don't live in an ideal world. I want her to be safe and smart. If that means not trusting the asshole guys at a high school party to take care of her if she passes out at a party full of teenage idiots, so be it. I hope it doesn't always have to be this way, and I am all for doing everything we can to change this mindset of many men that women are objects, but at the moment I'll prepare my children for the world we live in, not how I hope it will be in the future.

littlemonkey613
03-26-2013, 09:05 PM
Okay you guys just aren't getting it. The full responsibility of rape is already placed on girls and women. The reality is we are at extreme risk every waking moment of every day. I have a right to drink and black out if I want to. Is getting raped just "what I get"?

Framing it as a personal responsibility is considerably different than discussion which actually tackles the reality of rape culture, and equips people to make their own personal decisions with information. Not the shaming of those who dare to enjoy the same privilege their peers will enjoy without ever being criticized. There is nothing justifiable in the way that DigitalChaos is framing their argument. It's disgusting, inadvertently hateful and it is victim blaming.

Many of the people we do inform of danger will still choose to drink heavily (which they have every right to) and it is our responsibility to advocate for their humanity just as stringently.

Fundamentally those who are focusing on how much she drank do not understand this issue. They don't understand that it is not being a teen, or involved in binge drinking culture which makes these people rapists. What do all these teens and "rape-bros" become once they are out of school? And what of men who were once teens and frat bros. Rape culture has no boundaries.
This thread has been 90% about the intoxication of a victim of rape. This fact is not representational of rational thought, critical analysis, true concern for safety or our desire to empower women. It is the inevitable result of a discussion composed of a group of people who accept the monstrous prevalence of rape and its normalcy as a side effect to living with men. Rape is not a random and rare act of horror. There is no aspect of life that is protected from it.

Those of us who have not been raped are not street smart we are lucky. And there is a huge chance that luck will run out eventually.

Rape does not function in our world like other crimes, pranks, and forms of harassment. It's not just teens, and drunk bros, and random men in alleys. It's EVERYONE.

And someone who thinks that teaching general respect is an adequate substitute for teaching not to rape within the context of this society and this reality has no right to be making any of these comments, for it implies a false characterization of rapists and where they come from. (ie. from parents of limitless diversity and the locations of everywhere)

hollowed_point
03-26-2013, 09:28 PM
Okay you guys just aren't getting it. The full responsibility of rape is already placed on girls and women. The reality is we are at extreme risk every waking moment of every day. I have a right to drink and black out if I want to. Is getting raped just "what I get"?

Framing it as a personal responsibility is considerably different than discussion which actually tackles the reality of rape culture, and equips people to make their own personal decisions with information. Not the shaming of those who dare to enjoy the same privilege their peers will enjoy without ever being criticized. There is nothing justifiable in the way that DigitalChaos is framing their argument. It's disgusting, inadvertently hateful and it is victim blaming.

Many of the people we do inform of danger will still choose to drink heavily (which they have every right to) and it is our responsibility to advocate for their humanity just as stringently.

Fundamentally those who are focusing on how much she drank do not understand this issue. They don't understand that it is not being a teen, or involved in binge drinking culture which makes these people rapists. What do all these teens and "rape-bros" become once they are out of school? And what of men who were once teens and frat bros. Rape culture has no boundaries.
This thread has been 90% about the intoxication of a victim of rape. This fact is not representational of rational thought, critical analysis, true concern for safety or our desire to empower women. It is the inevitable result of a discussion composed of a group of people who accept the monstrous prevalence of rape and its normalcy as a side effect to living with men. Rape is not a random and rare act of horror. There is no aspect of life that is protected from it.

Those of us who have not been raped are not street smart we are lucky. And there is a huge chance that luck will run out eventually.

Rape does not function in our world like other crimes, pranks, and forms of harassment. It's not just teens, and drunk bros, and random men in alleys. It's EVERYONE.


In absolutely no way, shape, or form should the victim be blamed. What was done to her was horrific, and there is no excuse for it. I can't speak for everyone, but I most CERTAINLY never said that being raped is "what you get" for getting black-out drunk, but that it's easier to be the victim of any crime while you are passed out drunk so it is best to prepare your children as best as you can to make good decisions. I'm fully aware that kids are sometimes not going to listen to everything you tell them, and yeah, they might decide to go to parties and drink until they black out, but it certainly can't hurt to try and help them make the right decisions by making them aware of any and all dangers.


This fact is not representational of rational thought, critical analysis, true concern for safety or our desire to empower women. It is the inevitable result of a discussion composed of a group of people who accept the monstrous prevalence of rape and its normalcy as a side effect to living with men.

That's quite a sweeping statement there calling everyone who even MENTIONS being cautious when drunk an uninformed idiot. This world is full of terrible people doing terrible things. To simply say, "Fundamentally those who are focusing on how much she drank do not understand this issue" is a bit misguided IMO, as, like I said before, it is just a simple fact that when you are passed out drunk, you are extremely vulnerable and more open to bad things happening to you, from having dicks drawn on your forehead, having someone urinate on you, getting tossed from a bar into the street by a bouncer who doesn't give one shit about your well-being, getting raped, killed, etc.

That said, people will always continue to get knock-out drunk, and doing everything we can to change this culture of "if you are a female and you drink until you pass out, someone might rape you" is most definitely the course of action we need to take, but until everyone else in the world agrees with you and we can all sing kumbay-fucking-a and everyone drinks until the world ceases to exist, I will do everything I can to prepare my children for some of the sad realities in it.

edit: I do understand the point your making about rape in general and it's prevalence among all ages and cultures, and how we fundamentally as humans need to evolve and grow philosophically so that this type of behavior/mindset is altered to something far more positive, and I agree. My remarks are meant to tie into this case more specifically and how I can hopefully help prevent my children from putting themselves in this type of situation when the time comes. I understand there are no guarantees when it comes to anything in life, and to believe you can 100% prevent bad things from happening to them is naive as hell, but it's my job as a parent to do the best I can to prepare them to make smart decisions.

allegro
03-26-2013, 10:01 PM
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2012/10/alaska_men_accused_of_raping_d.html

"One in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys will be sexually assaulted by the age of 18."

http://www.ncdsv.org/images/sexualassaultstatistics.pdf

"According to a study conducted by the National Victim Center, 1.3 women (age 18 and over) in the United States are forcibly raped each minute. That translates to 78 an hour, 1,871 per day, or 683,000 per year.

According to the U.S. Department of Justice, nearly 6 out of 10 rape/sexual assault incidents are reported by victims to have occurred in their own home or a the home of a friend, relative, or neighbor."

hollowed_point
03-26-2013, 10:16 PM
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2012/10/alaska_men_accused_of_raping_d.html

"One in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys will be sexually assaulted by the age of 18."

http://www.ncdsv.org/images/sexualassaultstatistics.pdf

Absolutely atrocious. I think this kind of reinforces the point I was trying to make that may have not come out very clearly in earlier posts. I wasn't trying to imply that every female who is passed out drunk=raped, I was stating that when a rapist sees vulnerability, they seize on it. The less vulnerable you are, the less likely you are to be raped. It isn't a guarantee, to be sure, but it sure as shit helps. Whether that vulnerability is being passed out drunk, young, disabled, frail, etc., empowering yourself by decreasing your vulnerability is one of the best things you can do to protect yourself. All it takes is one smart decision to avoid being another statistic. As I said, there are no guarantees, but you owe it to yourself/your children to try.

littlemonkey613
03-26-2013, 10:31 PM
That's quite a sweeping statement there calling everyone who even MENTIONS being cautious when drunk an uninformed idiot. This world is full of terrible people doing terrible things. To simply say, "Fundamentally those who are focusing on how much she drank do not understand this issue" is a bit misguided IMO, as, like I said before, it is just a simple fact that when you are passed out drunk, you are extremely vulnerable and more open to bad things happening to you, from having dicks drawn on your forehead, having someone urinate on you, getting tossed from a bar into the street by a bouncer who doesn't give one shit about your well-being, getting raped, killed, etc.



I didn't say just mentioning, and I'm not excluding myself. The focus of practically every conversation I've seen about Steubenville is mostly about how much she was drinking. This is unforgivable and a testament to our fucked up ness like Matig was saying. No one is arguing against teaching the dangers of alcohol! Our point is that is already the established and most dominant social policy in effect! It's all we talk about! And asking everyone to focus on what is actually behind this issue is not a side effect of idealism. It's actually the only truly substantial thing we can do to hope to curb the prevalence of rape. Being careful about drinking was the only thing I was told when I got to my University and it's still just about the only thing my school does. Scapegoats. Scapegoats. Scapegoats.

DigitalChaos
03-26-2013, 10:31 PM
I don't usually get involved in these types of discussions, but I have to say that I think what DigitalChaos was saying is that all of us, whatever our gender, have to learn some level of personal responsibility when it comes to alcohol/drugs. His comment could have easily been arguing that you're more likely to fall down a flight of stairs, choke to death on your own vomit, be robbed, beaten, or otherwise abused while extremely intoxicated, so it's best to know your limits. I seriously don't believe that he's trying to pin the blame for this on the victim at all, just saying that when it comes to drugs, alcohol, and teenagers, bad decisions are bound to be made, sometimes with horrific results.

ex: I had a friend in college, a male, who drank until he blacked out while rushing. His frat overlords decided it would be a good idea to drag his lifeless body to the dormitories and leave him in the middle of the hallway at 1 a.m. I just happened to be going to another friends room on the same floor and happened to find him asphyxiating on his own vomit and was able to roll him over and call an ambulance to have his stomach pumped. If I hadn't found him, he would've died. He learned a very difficult lesson about not relying on others to take care of you while you're drunk, but rather to be VERY wary of others when you pass out.

The victim in this case suffered terribly, and it is fucking TRAGIC that the town and the people in it (even CNN for fucks sake) have acted like the guys are victims in any way, but it's important to not forget to teach our kids the reality of this world: people are capable of sick, sick behavior. Always be vigilant of your surroundings and make intelligent decisions.

I have a daughter (21 mnths), and I fully intend to empower her with the knowledge that yes, in an ideal world, men wouldn't ever act this way and awful things like this would never happen, but we don't live in an ideal world. I want her to be safe and smart. If that means not trusting the asshole guys at a high school party to take care of her if she passes out at a party full of teenage idiots, so be it. I hope it doesn't always have to be this way, and I am all for doing everything we can to change this mindset of many men that women are objects, but at the moment I'll prepare my children for the world we live in, not how I hope it will be in the future.

Absolutely spot on!

I think people have a fixation on simplifying every problem into a single cause. The moment I talk about personal responsibility it somehow becomes interpreted as "the victim is 100% to blame for not being responsible" because of the fixation.

People who refuse to acknowledge what you just said are perpetuating the creation of more victims. I mean... really?! Are we really going to say that self-preservation is completely unnecessary and people should be able to act and do whatever they want without concern? Isn't that the same mentality that the rapists had? Fucking come ON!

allegro
03-26-2013, 10:41 PM
Absolutely atrocious. I think this kind of reinforces the point I was trying to make that may have not come out very clearly in earlier posts. I wasn't trying to imply that every female who is passed out drunk=raped, I was stating that when a rapist sees vulnerability, they seize on it. The less vulnerable you are, the less likely you are to be raped. It isn't a guarantee, to be sure, but it sure as shit helps. Whether that vulnerability is being passed out drunk, young, disabled, frail, etc., empowering yourself by decreasing your vulnerability is one of the best things you can do to protect yourself. All it takes is one smart decision to avoid being another statistic. As I said, there are no guarantees, but you owe it to yourself/your children to try.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/sexualabuse/educated/rape_myths.html

"Myth: Men cannot be raped.
Fact: Sexual assault, no matter the gender of the perpetrator or victim, is a form of violence where sex is used to demean and humiliate another person. According to the 2010 NISVS report, 1 in 71 men in the U.S. are victims of rape or attempted rape in their lifetime; however, sexual violence of males is gravely underreported. Most male survivors were raped or sexually abused as children, others are sexually assaulted within their peer groups (ie. sports teams, fraternities, military battalions, gang), and many men are raped in prison. However, most men do not the identify assaults by their peers as a 'sexual assault' but merely part of the initiation or hazing ritual or write it off as 'guys being guys.' Typically, the perpetrator is a heterosexual male, exerting his power and control over another man. Men are often attacked in groups, physically brutalized, coerced, manipulated, or taken by surprise. Drugs and alcohol are sometimes used to incapacitate victims as well. Physical strength is not always sufficient protection and perpetrators use threats, intimidation, or further humiliation to keep their victims from reporting."

littlemonkey613
03-26-2013, 10:41 PM
^ @Digital, No one is arguing against that point! We are trying to convince you that it is in fact just about the ONLY thing that society ever tells people when it comes to sexual assault! Your preaching to a world who does nothing but regurgitate that same point over and over and over again! You talked about failed responsibility of a rape victim in relation to their rape situation. THAT IS VICTIM BLAMING.

hollowed_point
03-26-2013, 10:47 PM
I didn't say just mentioning, and I'm not excluding myself. The focus of practically every conversation I've seen about Steubenville is mostly about how much she was drinking. This is unforgivable and a testament to our fucked up ness like Matig was saying. No one is arguing against teaching the dangers of alcohol! Our point is that is already the established and most dominant social policy in effect! It's all we talk about! And asking everyone to focus on what is actually behind this issue is not a side effect of idealism. It's actually the only truly substantial thing we can do to hope to curb the prevalence of rape. Being careful about drinking was the only thing I was told when I got to my University and it's still just about the only thing my school does. Scapegoats. Scapegoats. Scapegoats.


I will agree with you 100% that people who strictly focus on how much she was drinking are at fault here, as there are much larger social/psychological implications at play here, I'm just stating that in situations such as this, being passed out drunk DOES increase the likelihood of bad things happening to you, and unfortunately for this poor young girl, about the worst thing that could've happened to her did​ happen. It is a sad testament to where we are as a society, and I for damn sure hope that, in the future, things are different.

Also, you are correct that too many people/institutions use alcohol as a scapegoat. Teaching women how NOT to behave is not the same thing as teaching young men how TO behave. It is vitally important that we, as members of a civilized, productive society, teach ALL of our young people how to do the right thing in every situation. It won't always work, and terrible things will still happen, but it starts with knowledge.

Knowledge=power. That's what G.I. Joe taught me anyways...

edit:

http://www.dartmouth.edu/sexualabuse/educated/rape_myths.html

"Myth: Men cannot be raped.
Fact: Sexual assault, no matter the gender of the perpetrator or victim, is a form of violence where sex is used to demean and humiliate another person. According to the 2010 NISVS report, 1 in 71 men in the U.S. are victims of rape or attempted rape in their lifetime; however, sexual violence of males is gravely underreported. Most male survivors were raped or sexually abused as children, others are sexually assaulted within their peer groups (ie. sports teams, fraternities, military battalions, gang), and many men are raped in prison. However, most men do not the identify assaults by their peers as a 'sexual assault' but merely part of the initiation or hazing ritual or write it off as 'guys being guys.' Typically, the perpetrator is a heterosexual male, exerting his power and control over another man. Men are often attacked in groups, physically brutalized, coerced, manipulated, or taken by surprise. Drugs and alcohol are sometimes used to incapacitate victims as well. Physical strength is not always sufficient protection and perpetrators use threats, intimidation, or further humiliation to keep their victims from reporting."

Sadly, that quote right there states the terrible truth of it all. There is no way to 100% avoid being raped, male or female, age regardless. My only hope is that I, as a parent who loves his children more than anything, might help my children make smart, rational decisions if they are in an environment where something, anything negative might take place. Being so drunk that your body is completely limp is not a good start.

allegro
03-26-2013, 10:57 PM
I'll post this again in case it got buried. it's from 5 mos ago. look at the comments.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2012/10/alaska_men_accused_of_raping_d.html

hollowed_point
03-26-2013, 11:00 PM
I'll post this again in case it got buried. it's from 5 mos ago. look at the comments.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2012/10/alaska_men_accused_of_raping_d.html

Jesus christ. That's why I try to avoid the comment sections of controversial news stories. So much callousness and insipid justifications for something that was just flat-out wrong. People are fucking terrible.

Magtig
03-26-2013, 11:01 PM
I don't usually get involved in these types of discussions, but I have to say that I think what DigitalChaos was saying is that all of us, whatever our gender, have to learn some level of personal responsibility when it comes to alcohol/drugs. His comment could have easily been arguing that you're more likely to fall down a flight of stairs, choke to death on your own vomit, be robbed, beaten, or otherwise abused while extremely intoxicated, so it's best to know your limits. I seriously don't believe that he's trying to pin the blame for this on the victim at all, just saying that when it comes to drugs, alcohol, and teenagers, bad decisions are bound to be made, sometimes with horrific results.
This is what you took from my statement? This problem is more serious than I thought. We need to talk about another aspect of rape that gets vastly under-reported. As clearly evidenced in this thread rape can turn some men -and possibly even women- let's call them "non-rapees" into complete retards. In severe cases they may lose reading comprehension skills, and the motivation to think critically and with compassion.

Should I spoon feed your feeble little brains and copy and paste the posts I have made IN THIS THREAD advocating the need for personal responsibility? Can you stupid people at least stop typing until you've read this massive four pager? It's not 1980 anymore, update your goddamn social software.

hollowed_point
03-26-2013, 11:07 PM
This is what you took from my statement? This problem is more serious than I thought. We need to talk about another aspect of rape that gets vastly under-reported. As clearly evidenced in this thread rape can turn some men -and possibly even women- let's call them "non-rapees" into complete retards. In severe cases they may lose reading comprehension skills, and the motivation to think critically and with compassion.

Should I spoon feed your feeble little brains and copy and paste the posts I have made IN THIS THREAD advocating the need for personal responsibility? Can you stupid people at least stop typing until you've read this massive four pager? It's not 1980 anymore, update your goddamn social software.

Damn man, do you need to take a Valium or something? Was social software out in 1980? Were you the first person with a computer? Are you a time traveler?! HOLY SHIT!!!

Being a dickhole when trying to have a discussion doesn't strengthen your point or make you look cool, it makes you look like a dickhole.


thanks once again for bringing the conversation right back around to what the victim did wrong rather than the fucked up culture that fosters this awful behavior in the first place.

is primarily what i was responding to, and I'm pretty sure that my entire post was stating that I don't think that that's what DigitalChaos was saying, and it certainly isn't how I feel. NOBODY IS SAYING THAT THE VICTIM IS AT FAULT. If it makes you feel special, you can call me and everyone else who dares to add to the conversation a "retard" again. Thanks for the valuable input.

littlemonkey613
03-26-2013, 11:30 PM
You are also all not taking into account how that rhetoric increases attitudes that allow for assault to be prevalent. Many people have such little respect for the bodies of intoxicated people because society has this "what do you expect" attitude. I see it lived out on a daily basis. That is why rhetoric is so important and why "personal responsibility" as a phrase within this context is unjustifiable. DigitalChaos also is not taking into account how much damage their rhetoric does to people who are already victims. It's dangerously similar to "boys will be boys" and again it is the constant in these kinds of discussions pretty much no matter what the context.

I'm still angry that DigitalChaos has not addressed my critique of their parenting comment....It's just so ironic that someone making these statements could say something as ludicrous as that.

Would you actually feel comfortable telling a sexual assault victim who was assaulted when they were black out drunk that they failed a personal responsibility, but oh don't worry its not your fault tho!

If so, go to hell. If not.....don't say that ever again.

Magtig
03-26-2013, 11:35 PM
You didn't add anything to this conversation. Neither did Digital Chaos. Not. One. Single. Thing. Nothing. Not at all. Zip. Zero. Zilchola! Everything you've said has been said before, but better, and by better people. (I was going to call you a retard again, but I figured it was strongly implied.)

And yes, that did definitely make me feel better.

/dickhole

hollowed_point
03-26-2013, 11:49 PM
You didn't add anything to this conversation. Neither did Digital Chaos. Not. One. Single. Thing. Nothing. Not at all. Zip. Zero. Zilchola! Everything you've said has been said before, but better, and by better people. (I was going to call you a retard again, but I figured it was strongly implied.)

And yes, that did definitely make me feel better.

/dickhole

Boy oh boy, you sure are quite proud of yourself, aren't you. I agree with you 100% that what happened here was entirely wrong, only reinforcing things I've read in this thread about vulnerable young women/men doing everything then can to protect themselves. There are no guarantees, as I've ALREADY stated, but every little bit counts. Do I have to link to some random assholes articles in every post I make for it to be valuable to the conversation? Or are you so far up your own ass that you need to be the god of all that is right and anything else that is said is stupid. Can I not add my own input as a father?

I've read the fucking thread, you pretentious prick. I've seen the links, the arguments, etc. I was giving my opinion, enforcing some of the things I've read in this thread while disagreeing with others. I place no blame on the victim and 100% of it on the perpetrators. Did you read all of MY posts?

And said before by better people? LMAO. You're a fucking joke. You think because their post count is higher than mine that my opinion is less valid. Typical forum whore nonsense.

How about this...instead of teaching my kids to make smart, intelligible decisions, I'll just tell them that rape is WRONG AND IT SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN AND THAT'S IT AND IF IT HAPPENS IT'S THE SHITHOLE MANS FAULT FOR BEING SUCH A WORTHLESS PILE OF GARBAGE, DON'T WORRY ABOUT PROTECTING YOURSELF OR MAKING SMART DECISIONS, PEOPLE WILL FIGURE IT OUT SOON ENOUGH. WE'RE GONNA CHANGE THE RAPE CULTURE SO THERE'S NOTHING ELSE TO WORRY ABOUT!!!

yeah, that'll work.

DigitalChaos
03-27-2013, 12:53 AM
Women's fundamental problem is that we exist. The history of tackling rape IS telling women what not to do.

The fact that you are focusing on women shows how heavily distorted your view is on the topic. It's like a fucking estrogen echo chamber in here. If we don't agree with you 100% then we are 100% wrong!




In case you were wondering why this world is so full of the reality of rapists...... THIS IS IT. Not only do you have a responsibility to explicitly say this, but one to say it over and over, in a way that details what is consent and what is not, what is coercion, what is sexual intimidation and in a way that accounts for the unequal world we are currently living in where women are not raised to have the same sexual agency as men.


No. My parents didn't explicitly tell this to me but I somehow know it's wrong. This is as asinine as the people who say you need religion to have morals. A good parent doesn't have to explicitly list every single bad thing that one should never do, a failing parent has to do this. That's how MORALS work! If you have to memorize an explicit list of bad actions, you do not have a functional moral compass.


PS - You say this is why the world is full of rapists. Well, I say your mentality is why the world is full of victims.







http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2012/10/alaska_men_accused_of_raping_d.html


"One in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys will be sexually assaulted by the age of 18."


http://www.ncdsv.org/images/sexualassaultstatistics.pdf


"According to a study conducted by the National Victim Center, 1.3 women (age 18 and over) in the United States are forcibly raped each minute. That translates to 78 an hour, 1,871 per day, or 683,000 per year.


According to the U.S. Department of Justice, nearly 6 out of 10 rape/sexual assault incidents are reported by victims to have occurred in their own home or a the home of a friend, relative, or neighbor."


THANK YOU! I don't understand why people continue to focus on rape as something that happens to only women. If you want to change something, you have to understand the whole picture.





^ @Digital, No one is arguing against that point! We are trying to convince you that it is in fact just about the ONLY thing that society ever tells people when it comes to sexual assault! Your preaching to a world who does nothing but regurgitate that same point over and over and over again! You talked about failed responsibility of a rape victim in relation to their rape situation. THAT IS VICTIM BLAMING.


Only in this thread can people say over and over that nobody is blaming the victim while people continue to say that we shouldn't blame the victim. It's getting pointless to even respond...


I already know that any child I raise will never intentionally harm someone. However, there are a lot of shitty parents in this world. I also know that, depending on the situation, my child will also stop someone from harming another.
What I do not know is that my child won't be a victim. The best thing I can do is teach my child how to not be a victim. So fuck you for trying to marginalize the importance of that message by pointing out that your political opponents happen to say it too.







Would you actually feel comfortable telling a sexual assault victim who was assaulted when they were black out drunk that they failed a personal responsibility, but oh don't worry its not your fault tho!
I wouldn't have to say it. They would already know it.

What do you think is the #1 thing that person regrets doing?

What do you think the #1 thing they would change if they could do it again?

What advice do you think that person will have for others who want to avoid being a rape victim?

allegro
03-27-2013, 01:51 AM
You think because their post count is higher than mine that my opinion is less valid. Typical forum whore nonsense.
hey whoa I resemble that remark!! :-)

littlemonkey613
03-27-2013, 02:41 AM
The fact that you are focusing on women shows how heavily distorted your view is on the topic. It's like a fucking estrogen echo chamber in here. If we don't agree with you 100% then we are 100% wrong!

.................................................. .....I have literally spent 3 pages arguing against this focus and that sentence was the pinnacle of that sentiment. Also, estrogen echo chamber... holy shit, nice.


No. My parents didn't explicitly tell this to me but I somehow know it's wrong. This is as asinine as the people who say you need religion to have morals. A good parent doesn't have to explicitly list every single bad thing that one should never do, a failing parent has to do this. That's how MORALS work! If you have to memorize an explicit list of bad actions, you do not have a functional moral compass.


PS - You say this is why the world is full of rapists. Well, I say your mentality is why the world is full of victims.

.........................25% of women are raped in college. People are growing up without knowing what rape and consent are. Your anecdotal experience does not eliminate the fact that we are in dire need of education about rape and consent in explicit detail. Seriously this post above all others puts on full display how utterly ignorant you are about this issue. My mentality is why the world is full of victims.....Seriously fuck you I can't even believe this.

Your totally making sense man. I call you out on saying that a rape victim had a personal responsibility not to get too drunk, you make the claim that people don't need to explicitly tell their children not to rape and teach them about explicit consent and I am the reason the world is full of rape victims. Literally what the fuck.



Only in this thread can people say over and over that nobody is blaming the victim while people continue to say that we shouldn't blame the victim. It's getting pointless to even respond...

NEWSFLASH.Saying something isn't victim blaming doesn't make it NOT victim blaming.
Victim blaming is not a term with a simple definition and is not always express obviously like "she deserved it." etc. Jesus read up and get your shit together. There are nuances pertaining to all of this that you are just clearly unfamiliar with.




I wouldn't have to say it. They would already know it.

What do you think is the #1 thing that person regrets doing?

What do you think the #1 thing they would change if they could do it again?

What advice do you think that person will have for others who want to avoid being a rape victim?

If they COULD DO WHAT AGAIN?! They are victims of RAPE not people who made a grave mistake.

I don't have to think of hypothetical people because so many of these victims are my close friends. I am a victim of coercion and sexual assault myself. You are so fucked up. Guess what they actually spend their time ranting about? VICTIM BLAMING. And battling the very notion that someone can AVOID being a rape victim. Jesus Fuck you omg.

Seriously I'm glad you made this specific post. I think it will pretty much settle the debate for anyone who is actually concerned with handling this issue sensitively and for those who actually take into account the insane amount of shame and accusations about a lack of responsibility victims have to face on a daily basis.

Nyx
03-27-2013, 02:48 AM
Let's change it up a little:




Would you actually feel comfortable telling a sexual assault victim who was assaulted when they were wearing a mini skirt and a tight shirt/walking home at night/getting into a car with her date that they failed a personal responsibility, but oh don't worry its not your fault tho!

I wouldn't have to say it. They would already know it.

What do you think is the #1 thing that person regrets doing?

What do you think the #1 thing they would change if they could do it again?

What advice do you think that person will have for others who want to avoid being a rape victim?It's the exact same thing. The victim is told that s/he was in some way responsible for either inspiring or enabling an act of rape. I don't get why this isn't immediately disgusting to everyone.

Yeah, alcohol is a problem, NO the aftermath of a rape is not the appropriate time to talk about it, not only out of respect for the victim trying to heal, but because any attention that goes to that, is attention that would be a million times better spent on things that do actually inspire and enable rape. But this way, instead of people being introspective, researching how everyone is contributing to this sort of behaviour and mentality, searching for ways to make this society a more decent place, finding and doing things as a society to help the victim cope, we're instead first and foremost saying "if she weren't so drunk/slutty/careless, this would have never happened" case closed.

Apparently, you have to explicitly tell your daughters they shouldn't drink if they don't want to get raped, but you don't have to explicitly tell boys not to assault females, they will "just know" it. Yeah, a lot of them will "just know it", but some children possess less empathy and common sense than others, especially in group type situations, regardless of their parents thinking their kids "just know" and that they're "good kids who would never do such a thing". Do you think any parents of rapists go "Yeah, he was always such a little scumbag, it was just a question of time, really.."? Like, for serious? That's why every child should be explicitly and repeatedly told not to mess with anyone's girl/boy parts unless the other person made it very clear they want their fun parts messed with. And every child should be explicitly and repeatedly told what to do if they ever witness or suspect anything like that happening to someone else. That is how you begin to tackle the problem of rape, not by telling girls to stop being so easy to rape. No one is saying you shouldn't tell girls about the dangers boys may present to them in this sad sad world, but to ascribe any kind of responsibility to the victim of a sexual assault, however partial and tiny, is absolutely wrong and just completely fucked up.

DigitalChaos
03-27-2013, 02:55 AM
After reading the rest of this thread it seems it all boils down to two differing opinion on stopping/reducing rapes


Side A wants to reduce the number of rapists.
Proposed solutions include making sure everyone knows that rape is wrong by addressing "rape culture"... and that's about it. (Who the fuck doesn't know that rape is wrong?) Any level of focus on the victims makes them feel bad, so we shouldn't do that. It also draws attention away from the true problem: the rapists.




Side B wants to reduce the number of victims.
Proposed solutions include informing people that threats exist in many places that they wouldn't have expected and educating people on what makes you an easier vs harder target. We should continue to shun rape as a society but realize that it is a slow process that will never achieve 100% success. Therefore, victim prevention is going to be necessary.




That about right? Have I distilled it enough to satisfy that undying need to have problems framed in a black and white?

littlemonkey613
03-27-2013, 03:00 AM
(Who the fuck doesn't know that rape is wrong?)



You just aren't getting it. We live in a society were people don't even know what constitutes rape. Please just fucking research and read on this topic.

And dear god you actually just said easier vs harder target.

And no your distillation once again proves that you don't understand what we have been saying all of this time.

DigitalChaos
03-27-2013, 03:03 AM
Answer my bolded question about advice. Unless your answer is "there is now way you can reduce your chances"

DigitalChaos
03-27-2013, 03:08 AM
Let's change it up a little:

It's the exact same thing. The victim is told that s/he was in some way responsible for either inspiring or enabling an act of rape.

It's not the same thing. Your example is nowhere near the level of being completely defenseless as an unconscious person. It's all about the risk. Don't pretend the risk is the same. Don't pretend that personal choice doesn't modify risk.

DigitalChaos
03-27-2013, 03:13 AM
Only in this thread is talk of disabling rape considered "enabling rape"

Pretty amazing.

icklekitty
03-27-2013, 03:40 AM
This thread needs a trigger warning :(

Nyx
03-27-2013, 03:42 AM
If I get shitfaced I accept full or partial personal responsibility for any of the following things:
-any damage I may cause while drunk
-being an asshole to people
-vomiting on my pants
-vomiting on someone else's pants
-breaking my face as a result of falling
-choking on my own vomit to death

Things I accept absolutely no personal responsibility for, either while shitfaced or sober:
-getting sexually assaulted or raped
-getting kidnapped
-getting murdered
-getting harmed by someone in any other way

You're going on about personal responsibility, but you simply do not get that no one is ever, in the slightest way, under no circumstance, responsible for getting raped. No matter what. That is the distilled point "side A" is making. Do you get it? You can do all you want to try and not be a victim, sit at home with 5 locks on the door and an anti-rape condom in your vagina for all I care, but don't ever suggest someone is fully or even partially responsible for anything done to them against their will.

Deepvoid
03-27-2013, 07:30 AM
It's not the same thing. Your example is nowhere near the level of being completely defenseless as an unconscious person. It's all about the risk. Don't pretend the risk is the same. Don't pretend that personal choice doesn't modify risk.

Might as well stay inside, lock the doors and windows.
Because the way you see it is that as soon as you step outside, well you risk of being raped and therefore, you should or shouldn't do certain things in order to prevent being raped. You end up saying if you don't follow those "guidelines" or "rules" or if you're not cautious enough in certain circumstances well... you have to bear a little bit of responsibility.

That's just wrong. I agree with everyone who says that under no circumstances should one single finger be pointed in the victim's direction. No matter how you slice and dice it.

Wolfkiller
03-27-2013, 08:27 AM
I don't think anyone is advocating the victim is in any way responsible for what happened to them. Yes, it would be wonderful if the world was perfect and anyone could walk around naked and get black out drunk without having to worry about anything bad happening to them. Unfortunately, we live in a world full of shitty people who do sick and cruel things to others while passed out. I don't think the term "rape culture" does justice to describing the problems society has, we have an asshole culture. Some people are cunts, period. Fingers should never be pointed at the victim, but it certainly couldn't hurt to explain to children that some people are fucked up and will do unto others nasty shit they wouldn't want done to themselves.

Satyr
03-27-2013, 08:28 AM
It's not the same thing. Your example is nowhere near the level of being completely defenseless as an unconscious person. It's all about the risk. Don't pretend the risk is the same. Don't pretend that personal choice doesn't modify risk.

Personal choice does obviously modify risk. People make stupid choices all the time. I could strap on a suit and a rolex and go on a walk through East Cleveland. That would put me at high risk of getting robbed (possibly at gunpoint) and beaten (potentially murdered).

I don't think that my stupid choice should absolve the person that robbed/beat/killed me of their crime. I certainly think that the person that committed the crimes should be held accountable...But that doesn't give me back my rolex my health, or my life.

marodi
03-27-2013, 08:48 AM
Oh dear, why am I in this thread again?

Let's try something else: isn't the justice system the biggest victim blaming of them all? From the very little I know about it, it seems to me that the defense team will do everything to pin the fact that the victim was raped on the victim herself. Do they (the defense team) still look into the victim sexual history; what she was wearing when the "incident" happened, did she said no clearly; did she send mixed signals; was she drinking; did she have a prior relationship with the accused etc.

This is how I remember it going in the court system. If it's still going on, how are we to expect a change in people's mentality when it seems like the law itself is saying the raped person is to blame?

Canuckle
03-27-2013, 09:18 AM
I'm curious as to why 'personnel responsibility' is such a faux pas when it comes to rape?

If I drive down the street sober, but don't wear my seatbelt and a drunk driver hits me and I am killed (but would of been saved if I wore a seatbelt), most people would agree that my lack of 'personnel responsibility' contributed (NOTE: I did not say the sole or primary reason) to my death.

If I walk down the streets of Harlem and wear a large swastika on my chest and get shot, most people would agree that my lack of 'common sense' contributed (NOTE: Again I did not say sole or primary reason) to my death.

Then why is it that when we talk about rape it's so black and white. One side argues that it's the rape victims fault (which I agree, is disgusting and inexcusable) while the other simply states that no one should be raped no matter what that person does, looks like or acts like, and the victim is completely faultless (i.e., it doesn't matter how drunk the girl got, it only matters that she was raped).

When did we stop thinking about preventative action and only think about teaching what's right and wrong? Not everyone in this world adheres to 'right' and 'wrong'. Common sense dictates that you need to be precautious and that trust in others is something earned, not expected.

So why is it so taboo to say suggest to a girl or boy "don't get black out drunk because it puts you in a vulnerable state, where things such as rape could happen"? Why is this automatically considered that you are sympathizing with the abuser and blaming the victim when really, it's something we would all suggest to our own children?

orestes
03-27-2013, 09:22 AM
Right now discussion is being pigeon-holed into scenarios similar to date rape when it is being systemically used as a tool of war, intimidation, etc.

Do you know who has the highest threat of sexual assault? POCs, gay and transgender victims. It's not just drunk girls at a party.

Just saying.

Canuckle
03-27-2013, 09:30 AM
Right now discussion is being pigeon-holed into scenarios similar to date rape when it is being systemically used as a tool of war, intimidation, etc.

Just saying.

I'll be the first to admit that rape comes in many forms; MANY of which aren't preventable and really represent the scum of the earth. Sadly, the most prolific rape cases up here in the North generally centre around child sexual assault in sports, and in particular hockey. In those cases, my argument/questions really have no place and I concede that.

Apologies if my comments seem misguided as I wrote them as more of a response to the entire thread which has been centred around juvenile date-rape.

allegro
03-27-2013, 10:00 AM
The title of the thread includes "Steubenville" so that probably contributes to the thread direction? Maybe this should be called the Rape Culture thread so that it includes all kinds of sexual assaults to both male and female victims, young and old?

(I had to Google "POCs" - people of color?)

DigitalChaos
03-27-2013, 10:43 AM
You're going on about personal responsibility, but you simply do not get that no one is ever, in the slightest way, under no circumstance, responsible for getting raped. No matter what.
The only people in this thread saying that the victim is responsible are you and others like you who use that as an out when asked about variance in risk based on personal choice. Good job completely avoiding the question!



Might as well stay inside, lock the doors and windows.
Because the way you see it is that as soon as you step outside, well you risk of being raped and therefore, you should or shouldn't do certain things in order to prevent being raped. You end up saying if you don't follow those "guidelines" or "rules" or if you're not cautious enough in certain circumstances well... you have to bear a little bit of responsibility.

That's just wrong. I agree with everyone who says that under no circumstances should one single finger be pointed in the victim's direction. No matter how you slice and dice it.
Good job avoiding the reality of personal responsibility modifying risk just like the last person. You even went and use hyperbole to act like risk shouldn't be something you think about because it is unavoidable.

FAIL

Yea, let's tell everyone that there is nothing you can do to protect yourself from rape. Just ignore that topic. Great job people. You are the ones who make victims.

DigitalChaos
03-27-2013, 11:11 AM
And since you two will probably use more hyperbole... No, not all rapes can be prevented. To deny that you can reduce your chance of being a victim (even outside of rape) is socially irresponsible.

Deepvoid
03-27-2013, 12:29 PM
We are making the victims? Are you for real?

Holy shit the things people say ...
Big FACEPALM to you....

allegro
03-27-2013, 12:35 PM
Guys, can we get off this argument? It's kinda dumb and doesn't make sense according to the statistics.

The bigger discussion would be to focus on sexual "assault' and how this is a way for men to exert power over their victim (young, old, male, female, disabled, drunk, sober, retarded, whatever) and often shows hatred and disdain; it's like a hate crime, but using sex to show hate.

Deepvoid
03-27-2013, 12:40 PM
And since you two will probably use more hyperbole... No, not all rapes can be prevented. To deny that you can reduce your chance of being a victim (even outside of rape) is socially irresponsible.

Let me get this straight.
If a girl is passed out drunk with a bunch of thugs at a part, she bears some liability for not lowering the probability of being raped by 1- due to drinking alcohol when in the presence of suspicious people (libel) 2- for hanging with the wrong crowd?

Is that what you're saying?

Canuckle
03-27-2013, 12:41 PM
Not to be nit-picky, but if we are opening this up, female-on-female and even female-on-male rape is also a thing. Obviously not as widespread as male-on-X rape, but both do exist.

Deepvoid
03-27-2013, 12:43 PM
Guys, can we get off this argument? It's kinda dumb and doesn't make sense according to the statistics.

The bigger discussion would be to focus on sexual "assault' and how this is a way for men to exert power over their victim (young, old, male, female, disabled, drunk, sober, retarded, whatever) and often shows hatred and disdain; it's like a hate crime, but using sex to show hate.

Agree but I'm little insulted by the statement that we are now making victims because we chose to put the blame solely on the rapist.
It's pretty much saying that we're as bad the rapists themselves.

That's low ...

DigitalChaos
03-27-2013, 12:45 PM
Not to be nit-picky, but if we are opening this up, female-on-female and even female-on-male rape is also a thing. Obviously not as widespread as male-on-X rape, but both do exist.
I'd be curious to see the statistics on that. Wikipedia fails to deliver http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender

DigitalChaos
03-27-2013, 12:52 PM
Let me get this straight.
If a girl is passed out drunk with a bunch of thugs at a part, she bears some liability for not lowering the probability of being raped by 1- due to drinking alcohol when in the presence of suspicious people (libel) 2- for hanging with the wrong crowd?

Is that what you're saying?
You are as detached from reality as the religious moralists who want to remove sex education from schools. You are the type of person who makes a shitty parent because they cannot talk to their children about certain topics. You are the reason we need other people (government, school, etc) to pick up the slack and educate people. The people who do not teach their children basic defense are in the same realm as the parents who fail to teach their children that rape is wrong: they are part of the problem.

allegro
03-27-2013, 01:27 PM
Come on, guys, jesus christ, none of this stupid back-and-forth oversensitivity is very constructive.

Obviously parents can't "teach" kids stuff that creates a big impression, otherwise this wouldn't be a problem in 2013. You can be the best parents in the world but group thought and peer pressure and mental illness and anger and all kinds of other things are beyond a parent's control. And, sure, street smarts and pepper spray and krav maga may assist in preventing being assaulted but not always. So how do we change society?

Look at the rape problem in India. It's been front-page-news for a while, particularly after a woman was raped TO DEATH a few months ago on a public bus.

DigitalChaos
03-27-2013, 01:48 PM
So how do we change society?
My general prescription for problems still applies: Eliminate laws that punish crimes that do not have a victim. Increase the punishment for laws that have a victim.

Deepvoid
03-27-2013, 02:03 PM
You are as detached from reality as the religious moralists who want to remove sex education from schools. You are the type of person who makes a shitty parent because they cannot talk to their children about certain topics. You are the reason we need other people (government, school, etc) to pick up the slack and educate people. The people who do not teach their children basic defense are in the same realm as the parents who fail to teach their children that rape is wrong: they are part of the problem.

If I have a daughter I will teacher her how to drink responsibility but I wanna make damn sure that if she does drink a shit load of beer and passe out and God help me, gets rape, that she will fucking speak up about it.
I don't want my daughter to fucking think that "oh damn I drank too much, what are people gonna say or think of me" "Did I deserve it." "What if I said something that lead the guy to force himself on me but I just don't remember" and not fucking speak up.

Because that would make me feel like a shitty parent.

Now, may I ask that you to stop personally attacking me? Calling me a shitty parent doesn't bring anything to the discussion.

allegro
03-27-2013, 02:09 PM
My general prescription for problems still applies: Eliminate laws that punish crimes that do not have a victim. Increase the punishment for laws that have a victim.

I don't think that's gonna do anything to alter the underlying cause; I like Henry Rollins' ideas, better. Although, that doesn't speak to violence against men or boys.

DigitalChaos
03-27-2013, 02:17 PM
I don't think that's gonna do anything to alter the underlying cause; I like Henry Rollins' ideas, better. Although, that doesn't speak to violence against men or boys.
You don't think people would be less likely to rape if they were going to get a more sever punishment than they get now? Let's just say death penalty for sake of conversation. Now add in all the additional time and resources our law enforcement will have since they aren't dealing with victimless crimes. Rape will be getting much more law enforcement attention. Now add in all the money we will have to put toward the victimizing crimes since we aren't spending it on stupid shit.

DigitalChaos
03-27-2013, 02:27 PM
If I have a daughter I will teacher her how to drink responsibility but I wanna make damn sure that if she does drink a shit load of beer and passe out and God help me, gets rape, that she will fucking speak up about it.
I don't want my daughter to fucking think that "oh damn I drank too much, what are people gonna say or think of me" "Did I deserve it." "What if I said something that lead the guy to force himself on me but I just don't remember" and not fucking speak up.

Because that would make me feel like a shitty parent.

Now, may I ask that you to stop personally attacking me? Calling me a shitty parent doesn't bring anything to the discussion.

That is a fair point. Of course, you need to phrase it properly so that it is clear. Life is about risk. You learn to manage risk and take calculated risk. When something bad happens you deal with it in the best way possible. It's not like people hide cancer because of the guilt of having an unhealthy diet. You also have to realize that a lot of the implied "fault" of a victim comes from from the side screaming "if you imply that the victim had any ability to prevent it you are blaming them." A much better way to address the people who are ACTUALLY blaming the victim is to say "yes, there are ways to reduce the chance BUT you are not to blame if it happens to you"

allegro
03-27-2013, 02:58 PM
You don't think people would be less likely to rape if they were going to get a more sever punishment than they get now? Let's just say death penalty for sake of conversation. Now add in all the additional time and resources our law enforcement will have since they aren't dealing with victimless crimes. Rape will be getting much more law enforcement attention. Now add in all the money we will have to put toward the victimizing crimes since we aren't spending it on stupid shit.
The fear of "doing time" isn't a big deterrent to people who don't know that what they are doing is a crime. All those young people at that Steubenville football party, or even at the above-linked Alaska football party, all doing shit that they thought was just "boys being boys," you could hear one kid in the background on one of the videos saying those guys could be facing "20 years" and NOBODY was paying attention to that guy, they were all too busy laughing thinking it was all funny stuff, not criminal stuff.

If we rid the jails of victimless crimes (e.g. drug possession, drug sales, prostitution), and leave a bunch of room in the crossbar hotel for sexual assailants, we STILL need to change the attitudes of law enforcement, much of which doesn't bother to try to convict these crimes (and still uses the "no means no" model, even in a recent case where the woman had the mental capacity of a 3-yr-old but the defense successfully argued that she didn't "bite or kick enough" to indicate that she didn't consent), and we STILL need to educate the public, in a BIG way, that these CRIMES are serious and will be strictly enforced; again, like India is doing, although the U.S. tends to think of itself in such an insulated way, it's not interested in discussing anything outside of this country, for some dumb reason. (Well, okay, people in this THREAD, mostly.)

DigitalChaos
03-27-2013, 03:03 PM
The fear of "doing time" isn't a big deterrent to people who don't know that what they are doing is a crime. All those young people at that Steubenville football party, or even at the above-linked Alaska football party, all doing shit that they thought was just "boys being boys," you could hear one kid in the background on one of the videos saying those guys could be facing "20 years" and NOBODY was paying attention to that guy, they were all too busy laughing thinking it was all funny stuff, not criminal stuff.
Considering how wide-spread rape is, the new attention and resource put on it will mean that more people will start getting punished. It will get more attention and start hitting home for more people. There will always be the invincibility problem within youth. Even their uncle getting the electric chair for rape won't register to them.

littlemonkey613
03-27-2013, 03:15 PM
For Christ's sake I have said over and over again I am not against teaching people information and suggesting ways a person can protect themselves against a potential threat. I am against your RHETORIC and the way you choose to express this point which does not account for how you make victims feel, does not account for the shame and guilt that are projected onto victims and women, and does not account for the culture of shame in which most victims never come forward. You did not go about making any of your points thoughtfully, it showed you are clearly inexperienced in navigating this issue, and don't give a damn what your word choice projects or implies in the climate of rape culture.

And yeah how it makes victims feel and the fact that your word choice can make victims "feel bad" (lol jesus I still can't) matters when we are more than 20% of the god damn population.

And again this focus, is not new and it is currently the only mainstream answer to rape. Risk management for the woman is and has always been the main focus of discussion for as long as rape has been on the social conscience. That was the fundamental point I was trying to make. It matters that this is what our conversations are always about. It means we are failing ourselves and our community.

Also, you never truly acknowledged or admitted you were gravely mistaken when you stated that you do not need to teach explicitly about rape and consent. That statement proved you are ignorant about a lot within this issue. You essentially scoffed at any solution which tries to lower the amount of rape that takes place on the side of the perpetrator done on any level lower than the justice system itself as has our society since we have acknowledged rape. This is a sure fire way to make sure the prevalence of rape stays the same.

Kids are growing up not realizing what rape and date rape is. A lot of the time victims cannot even recognize the fact that they have been assaulted. (many of my friends realized they were raped years later).

icklekitty
03-27-2013, 03:38 PM
You don't think people would be less likely to rape if they were going to get a more sever punishment than they get now? Let's just say death penalty for sake of conversation. Now add in all the additional time and resources our law enforcement will have since they aren't dealing with victimless crimes. Rape will be getting much more law enforcement attention. Now add in all the money we will have to put toward the victimizing crimes since we aren't spending it on stupid shit.

The thing about severity of punishment reminded me of this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21941874

Satyr
03-27-2013, 03:49 PM
Considering how wide-spread rape is, the new attention and resource put on it will mean that more people will start getting punished. It will get more attention and start hitting home for more people. There will always be the invincibility problem within youth. Even their uncle getting the electric chair for rape won't register to them.

I think we should bring back crucifixion just for rapists. Seeing someone slowly and painfully die over a period of days of a combination of exposure and suffocation....Would be a bit much. But people might think for a second before they start raping people.

littlemonkey613
03-27-2013, 03:49 PM
http://coveredinbandaids.tumblr.com/

This is a great series of posts by a student at my school whose rapist still attends. She has a recorded confession on one of the posts. Read if you can. After being fed up with how slowly the LAPD and school are handling her case she decided to out her rapist online.

DigitalChaos
03-27-2013, 03:56 PM
Also, you never truly acknowledged or admitted you were gravely mistaken when you stated that you do not need to teach explicitly about rape and consent. That statement proved you are ignorant about a lot within this issue.
I'm sorry that you do not know how to build a functional moral compass. I am sorry that you project your failings upon others and assume they are as defficient as you. I am not going to adapt my life to the lowest common denominator. Sorry. I will parent my children in a way that I choose to, in a way that sets the bar higher than the average. I accept that there are other methods of parenting beyond my own.


Next topic!

DigitalChaos
03-27-2013, 03:58 PM
The thing about severity of punishment reminded me of this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21941874

Yea, that is fucked. The punishment is way too small in my opinion.



I think we should bring back crucifixion just for rapists. Seeing someone slowly and painfully die over a period of days of a combination of exposure and suffocation....Would be a bit much. But people might think for a second before they start raping people.
For the sake of discussion, it certainly works! It means that there is a sliding scale between severity of punishment and deterring behavior. This is just one one end of the spectrum. Thus, increasing punishment will be beneficial.

DigitalChaos
03-27-2013, 04:01 PM
People commonly believe that a punishment should be matched to the crime. What about using an economic perspective and changing the punishment to match the rate of the crime? If the rates do not decrease to "acceptable" levels, the punishment has not been set high enough.

littlemonkey613
03-27-2013, 07:09 PM
I'm sorry that you do not know how to build a functional moral compass. I am sorry that you project your failings upon others and assume they are as defficient as you. I am not going to adapt my life to the lowest common denominator. Sorry. I will parent my children in a way that I choose to, in a way that sets the bar higher than the average. I accept that there are other methods of parenting beyond my own.


Next topic!


It's not lowest common denominator when 25% of all women who go to college are victims of rape. It is a normalized practice and people's definition of rape is narrow. People have an image of rape that leans toward excessive force, which does not account for a large proportion of the rapes that take place. It also does not take into account the disgusting epidemic of people who feel like they have to have sex when they don't want to, the acceptance of second asks, coercion and subtle intimidation. (As I stated earlier my best friend surveyed 600 college women and found 1/4 of them had intercourse in the last year without wanting to and 1/3 gave oral without wanting to.)

You do have a responsibility as a parent to explain to your child what rape and consent are in explicit detail. If you don't do that you have no business even trying to contribute to this topic. It is the bare MINIMUM if you want to do anything about rape in this society.
Doing this also equips your child to recognize the more subtle forms of assault, so they can react appropriately when they see it and influence their peers in a positive way when it comes to this issue. So you want to train children in detail how to reduce their "chances" of getting raped but do not think you have any responsibility to also teach your children about what constitutes assault and what doesn't? You think that the majority of people who commit assault see themselves as people who don't respect people? You think they actually conceptualize themselves as rapists?

Rape culture IS parents thinking that somehow magically a broad definition of respect is adequate education when it comes to the reality of sexual assault. Even more importantly it is your responsibility to lay it out because very often people can't recognize when they themselves are assaulted because it does not meet common associations with the word rape. How are you not getting this? Getting parents to commit to this is actually bare minimum if you want to see any sort of progress.

Have you even begun to delve into studies where young people are surveyed about this issue?

http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/sa_rape_support.html

- A survey of 11-to-14 year-olds foundref 5)
· 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl;
· 31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;
· 87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;
· 65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months."

"In a survey of male college students:· 35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it (ref 6,7).
· One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.(ref 6,7)
- In another survey of college males: (ref 8)
· 43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse.
· 15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape; 11% acknowledged using physical restraints to force a woman to have sex."


I dare you to actually look into all of this and come back here and tell me you have no parental responsibility to lay shit out in a way that deals with consent and assault more specifically.

Also comprehensive and necessary education can also be argued to be the best "risk management" that you can possibly give, as it requires actually referring to what the dangers actually consist of. Duh.

When this is the reality we are dealing with saying:



Though really... that [telling kids not to rape] is something you shouldn't have to explicitly say if you are a decent parent. It would fall into the basic moral of not harming others.


"don't harm others" and "don't be naive of the potential dangers that surround you" will take care of a lot of parenting topics.

is actaully just an unmitigated example of pure ignorance and misunderstanding of the realities of sexual assault.

allegro
03-27-2013, 09:15 PM
I think that in a perfect world, parents teach kids about right and wrong and this leads to kids having empathy.

Talk to any seasoned parent (like, those who have children with children) and they'll tell you this: The HARDEST thing about being a parent is teaching a child empathy. Kids either seem to have it or they don't, like it's innate. Also, parents are so busy these days they evidently don't notice wtf their kids are doing. Where were the parents of all those kids at those Stubenville parties? All the kids were drunk from well-stocked liquor supplies but not one parent to be found? What kind of parent raised a kid to sit idly by, watching an unconscious person get sexually assaulted without doing the "right thing" and phoning home? Answer: Most parents, albeit unwittingly. We're looking to parents but the parents don't have this discussion with their kids. They never discuss how sitting around joking and doing nothing while being a witness makes you an ACCOMPLICE. Parents still can't seem to discuss sex at all with their kids, let alone what is inappropriate touching, coercion, grooming, rape culture, etc. Date rape and sexual assaults on college campuses is a relatively small percentage of the sexual assault epidemic; it's just scratching the surface of a bigger problem; look at the alarming sex trafficking statistics, slavery statistics, spousal abuse statistics, priest-child sex abuse statistics, wtf.

littlemonkey613
03-27-2013, 09:25 PM
Parents still can't seem to discuss sex at all with their kids, let alone what is inappropriate touching, coercion, grooming, rape culture, etc. Date rape and sexual assaults on college campuses is a relatively small percentage of the sexual assault epidemic; it's just scratching the surface of a bigger problem.

Exactly and then we all sit back and wonder how this is all happening so often. Also very true about the very narrow scope about the statistics I was laying out. It's just that is what I happen to be combatting on my own campus at the moment also because it they seemed more closely tied to the Steubenville case.

When it comes to spousal abuse and relationships. Have you all ever looked into the idea of "withholding sex" from a partner? I google it from time to time to get my mind blown.

Magtig
03-28-2013, 12:58 AM
Have you even begun to delve into studies where young people are surveyed about this issue?

http://www.uic.edu/depts/owa/sa_rape_support.html

- A survey of 11-to-14 year-olds foundref 5)
· 51% of the boys and 41% of the girls said forced sex was acceptable if the boy, "spent a lot of money" on the girl;
· 31% of the boys and 32% of the girls said it was acceptable for a man to rape a woman with past sexual experience;
· 87% of boys and 79% of girls said sexual assault was acceptable if the man and the woman were married;
· 65% of the boys and 47% of the girls said it was acceptable for a boy to rape a girl if they had been dating for more than six months."

"In a survey of male college students:· 35% anonymously admitted that, under certain circumstances, they would commit rape if they believed they could get away with it (ref 6,7).
· One in 12 admitted to committing acts that met the legal definitions of rape, and 84% of men who committed rape did not label it as rape.(ref 6,7)
- In another survey of college males: (ref 8)
· 43% of college-aged men admitted to using coercive behavior to have sex, including ignoring a woman's protest, using physical aggression, and forcing intercourse.
· 15% acknowledged they had committed acquaintance rape; 11% acknowledged using physical restraints to force a woman to have sex."


I dare you to actually look into all of this and come back here and tell me you have no parental responsibility to lay shit out in a way that deals with consent and assault more specifically.
Oh, littlemonkey, don't you know that you're still just projecting your failings onto the rest of the world? You're the reason there are so many victims out there, not Digital Chaos (or actual rapists). And for the love of god, he's not a victim blamer... except when he's blaming you. Hell, he's such a great parent he doesn't even have to parent, just ask him. Wait, you won't even have to ask him he'll just tell you! He's such a great guy that his almost complete ignorance to his own misogyny is actually endearing! Oh, us frail and flawed humans. Shucks.

DigitalChaos
03-28-2013, 01:25 AM
Allegro already said what needs to be said. I do find it funny that you are so pissed off you have to keep ranting to the point you've gone entirely off topic.
I'm entertained!

The fact that your stance can be encapsulated and dismantled by a 2min Fox News clip really says it all. I mean holy shit... The Independent Women's Forum rep thinks your view is so asinine that she immediately sides with fucking Sean Hannity! How fucked is that!?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RtYfusw4qw

littlemonkey613
03-28-2013, 01:34 AM
......Teaching people what sexual assault IS does not require "training rapists". It requires giving two shits about making sure your child knows what that means, because no one else is going to tell them. In light of those survey results and prevalence of this horror, how fucking stupid of us to suggest parents make sure to explain this issue. Nothing Allegro said even attempts to negate anything were saying.

Off topic? This is a rape culture thread. Talking about educating children comes with the territory. Welcome.

orestes
03-28-2013, 11:56 AM
Allegro already said what needs to be said. I do find it funny that you are so pissed off you have to keep ranting to the point you've gone entirely off topic.
I'm entertained!

The fact that your stance can be encapsulated and dismantled by a 2min Fox News clip really says it all. I mean holy shit... The Independent Women's Forum rep thinks your view is so asinine that she immediately sides with fucking Sean Hannity! How fucked is that!?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RtYfusw4qw

Kind of deflates your opinion when Zerlina Maxwell was threatened with being gang raped and lynched after appearing on Hannity.

DigitalChaos
03-28-2013, 12:10 PM
Not at all. That was the point. The Fox News crowd is horrible. Hannity is horrible. A bunch of socially conservative assholes. Yet, the IWF rep immediately sided with them because of how wrong Maxwell was.

Magtig
03-28-2013, 01:37 PM
Not at all. That was the point. The Fox News crowd is horrible. Hannity is horrible. A bunch of socially conservative assholes. Yet, the IWF rep immediately sided with them because of how wrong Maxwell was.
And yet, you won't even address the survey that littlemonkey posted asking teens when they thought it was okay to rape. If this isn't the reality then by all means show us in studies and evidence what the IWF rep is referring to. I'd really rather the world not be as awful as I perceive it to be especially where rape culture is concerned, and I'm not blindly confident like you in my own opinion. If you show me credible and convincing evidence that helps to clarify the way things are out there in the world, I'll modify my outlook.

allegro
03-28-2013, 01:39 PM
Not at all. That was the point. The Fox News crowd is horrible. Hannity is horrible. A bunch of socially conservative assholes. Yet, the IWF rep immediately sided with them because of how wrong Maxwell was.
I've been a member of NOW for most of my life, but I had to go Google "Independent Women's Forum."

"Provides a voice for American women who believe in individual freedom and personal responsibility."

LOL LOL LOL, Digital, come on, that's a bad spin right there hahahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa gtfo this has stink all over it.

Maxwell isn't "wrong," she's just utopic. In a perfect world, "personal responsibility" includes the RAPISTS having enough personal responsibility not to rape people.

But, we ain't in a perfect world; and this whole "personal responsibility" issue is a middle class white American's rhetoric by nice vanilla people who've never heard of "ethnic cleansing" or "raping a virgin to cure AIDS."

Here, look at this: http://www.stoprapenow.org/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21949122


Displaced Somalis abused and raped - Human Rights Watch

Internally displaced people in Somalia are suffering sexual violence and other forms of abuse, reports the Human Rights Watch (HRW) campaign group.

The abuse takes place at the hands of armed groups, including government forces, it says.

In the report, women who fled famine and conflict describe being gang-raped in camps in the capital, Mogadishu.

Managers of the camps - often allied to militias - siphon off food and other aid, the HRW report says.

HRW says that even though the new Somali government which came to power in September last year has made some impressive statements, it has done very little to change the situation on the ground.

The gatekeepers who control the camps are themselves very abusive”

"Our findings suggested that the people in these camps are often basically kept captive in the camps," said David Mepham, the UK director of Human Rights Watch.

"They are not really able to leave. The gatekeepers who control the camps are themselves very abusive.

"They siphon off some of the international assistance that is intended for people in the camps - people who are in many cases in serious distress, in serious need."

Lucrative
The report, Hostages of the Gatekeepers, focuses on those who have fled to the Mogadishu camps since 2011.

Running camps has become so lucrative, the group says, that managers - known as gatekeepers - refuse to let the inhabitants leave.

Some of the worst abuse involves sexual violence against displaced women and girls - which goes under-reported because women fear stigma and reprisal.

The report contains harrowing quotes from women who say they have been raped, including 23-year-old Quman. She says she was nine months pregnant when she was gang raped by three men in government army uniform.

Another woman, Safiyo, had to have her leg amputated after she was raped and shot.

Sexual violence is under-reported, the report says, because women fear stigma and reprisal.

The recent brief imprisonment of a displaced Somali woman who told the authorities she had been raped will not help matters, reports the BBC's Africa analyst Mary Harper.

HRW also cites discrimination against those who come from certain clans or ethnic groups.

It says those who complain about abuse are often beaten or even arrested.

A new government backed by the UN came to power in Somalia last September, tasked with ending more than 20 years of conflict in the country.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2005/02/rape-weapon


Rape As a Weapon
In Darfur as elsewhere, systematic rape is used as a means of ethnic cleansing.

Recent reports have called attention to the widespread rape of Sudanese women and girls in Darfur by janjaweed militiamen intent, according to some of the women, on populating the western region with Arab babies. Rape is often seen as a side effect of war, a function of the chaos created by conflict, and an individual, personal tragedy. But, as this example shows, rape on a large scale can function as a weapon of war – in this case a tool for ethnic cleansing; a war crime.

Darfur is not exceptional. Rape has been used before as a tool of demoralization and of physical and cultural genocide. After the independence of Bangladesh in 1971, Pakistani soldiers are known to have raided Bengali villages, taken their women to their barracks, and raped them repeatedly. An estimated 200,000 women were raped, resulting in 25,000 pregnancies. A Council of Europe report in 1974 found that, during the occupation of Cyprus, Turkish soldiers and officers frequently raped women and girls. Human Rights Watch has documented high incidences of rape by security forces in Peru and in Jammu and Kashmir in the 1990s, with strong evidence that orders were given from above to use this tactic. During the Burmese government’s campaign to drive the Rohingya Muslims out of the country in 1992, Rohingya men were systematically rounded up into forced labor, and the women were gang-raped and driven out of the country to Bangladeshi refugee camps where, incidentally, they were raped and abused again, this time by the Bangladeshi military forces running the camps.

More recently, Amnesty International reports that the Lord’s Resistance Army in Northern Uganda systematically abducted girls and forced them to become their “wives” and to serve as rewards for obeying orders. The United Nations has documented the widespread institutionalization of abduction, sexual slavery and rape in Sierra Leone. The Rwandan genocide of 1994 featured the mass rape of women by the Hutu militia with the ultimate aim of wiping out the Tutsi minority. Amnesty estimates that up to half a million women were raped during the Rwandan genocide. Seven out of ten of these rape survivors are believed to be living with HIV/AIDS today.

Serbian rape camps gained notoriety in 1993 when it was reported that the Partizan Sports Complex in the town of Foca in the former Yugoslavia, a detainment center for Bosnian Muslim and Croat women in transit, had served as a rape camp for two months in 1992. The Partizan camp was only one of dozens of Serbian rape camps, which appeared to serve as a systematic means of demoralizing and reducing the population of Muslims and Croats. In a rare instance of justice in the face of wartime sexual assault, responsibility for what happened in Foca has been traced back to the Karadzic leadership, and three Bosnian Serb men were convicted of crimes including the rape of women and girls in Foca at the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia.

Much less reported on is the physical and cultural genocide in Tibet by the Chinese authorities. Various sources have documented China’s unauthorized population control campaign in Tibet, which consists of mass sterilization, forced abortions, and organized rape of Tibetan women. Tibetan nuns and other female political prisoners are repeatedly raped and sexually assaulted in efforts to demoralize the community by knowingly destroying the much-revered purity of these women.

Rape has been recognized and implemented by its perpetrators as an effective means of breaking down a society and as a strategic means towards achieving military ends. While provisions in the Geneva Conventions and other United Nations treaties such as the Torture Convention and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights prohibit cruel, degrading and inhuman treatment, and while mass rape on an institutional scale could be considered a crime against humanity, the crime of rape in war as such often eludes legal retribution, and seldom gets the level of media coverage it deserves.

DigitalChaos
03-28-2013, 01:54 PM
And yet, you won't even address the survey that littlemonkey posted asking teens when they thought it was okay to rape. If this isn't the reality then by all means show us in studies and evidence what the IWF rep is referring to. I'd really rather the world not be as awful as I perceive it to be especially where rape culture is concerned, and I'm not blindly confident like you in my own opinion. If you show me credible and convincing evidence that helps to clarify the way things are out there in the world, I'll modify my outlook.

The Steubenville rapists already knew it was wrong. They didn't care and/or didn't think they would get caught. That was pretty obvious. Do you disagree? That sums up just about every crime that requires a defensive approach to mitigate.

DigitalChaos
03-28-2013, 02:00 PM
I've been a member of NOW for most of my life, but I had to go Google "Independent Women's Forum."

"Provides a voice for American women who believe in individual freedom and personal responsibility."

LOL LOL LOL, Digital, come on, that's a bad spin right there hahahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa gtfo this has stink all over it.

Maxwell isn't "wrong," she's just utopic. In a perfect world, "personal responsibility" includes the RAPISTS having enough personal responsibility not to rape people.

But, we ain't in a perfect world; and this whole "personal responsibility" issue is a middle class white American's rhetoric by nice vanilla people who've never heard of "ethnic cleansing" or "raping a virgin to cure AIDS."

Here, look at this: http://www.stoprapenow.org/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21949122



http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2005/02/rape-weapon

utopic vs wrong is just semantics. The world is not currently utopic. Thus, her utopic fix is for a different world than we have. Thus, it is not a fix. Thus, it is wrong.


I fully acknowledge the rape issues in the rest of the world. It is quite a bit different than the confines of the USA and/or Steubenville (to which I have been framing the debate). I don't know enough about the topic to really give any input. I also have much less say/control in the other areas. Things are MUCH worse outside the USA though. Most people would consider it a bad idea for a women to walk naked throught he streets of India... for example.

allegro
03-28-2013, 02:08 PM
utopic vs wrong is just semantics. The world is not currently utopic.
AND BOTH SIDES IN THAT HANNITY BLOW FEST ARE JUST WRONG WRONG WRONG. IT'S ALL ABOUT THE RATINGS AND THE SPONSORS, BABY! THEY DON'T GIVE A *FUCK* ABOUT RAPE OR ANY OF THAT SHIT. THEY CARE ABOUT THE CASH. SO YOUR POSTING A LINK TO THAT SHIT SHOWS THAT YOU'RE NOT ONLY UNINFORMED BUT YOU'RE REALLY NAIVE, OR YOU'RE REACHING INTO THE BOTTOM OF THE FUCKING BARREL, HERE, THINKING *WE* ARE ALL TOO FUCKING STUPID TO KNOW HOW TO REALLY DEBATE. YOU DO REALIZE THAT MOST OF US HAVE COLLEGE DEGREES AND HAVE TAKEN DEBATE CLASSES, RIGHT? IF YOU'RE GONNA PLAY IN THE GAME, SHOW UP WITH THE RIGHT TOOLS, OKAY?


I fully acknowledge the rape issues in the rest of the world. It is quite a bit different than the confines of the USA and/or Steubenville (to which I have been framing the debate). I don't know enough about the topic to really give any input. I also have much less say/control in the other areas.
We can't really have this discussion without understanding that the U.S. is a part of the WHOLE WORLD and the mentality of rape culture is WORLD-WIDE. It's not "different" here. HAVE YOU SEEN THE STATISTICS OF FEMALES AND MALES IN THE U.S. MILITARY GETTING RAPED ALL THE GOD DAMNED TIME? 500,000 RAPES. Seriously, if you want to be in a discussion about rape, you can't just make it about one small aspect of rape. Where is "personal responsibility" with little kids getting RAPED by priests? I'll give you HUNDREDS of other examples IN THIS COUNTRY where "personal responsibility" just DOES NOT APPLY and is insulting and a utopic bullshit copout used by people who need to stop watching Seinfeld and grow the fuck up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ECOqpv45tIo

It's very rare, anymore, that I get mad in these forums but you have hijacked this thread with your agenda. While you were masturbating in the gun thread, we had MOVED ON from "framing" this thread around Steubenville, MANY DAYS AGO. MOVE ON.

DigitalChaos
03-28-2013, 02:28 PM
AYOU DO REALIZE THAT MOST OF US HAVE COLLEGE DEGREES AND HAVE TAKEN DEBATE CLASSES, RIGHT? IF YOU'RE GONNA PLAY IN THE GAME, SHOW UP WITH THE RIGHT TOOLS, OKAY?
Did they teach you caps lock in college debate? Is this the kind of high quality college debate you are talking about? http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/1520-Steubenville-trial-and-rape-culture?p=77806#post77806 (rofl)

But seriously, let me give you some insight on my method of debate.... I always try to find a way to go against the. When I was last in a college debate class the teacher was very obviously into militant feminism. She would treat the males in the class very coldly. EVERYONE wonder wtf the issue was. We were told to choose our own debate topics for our final projects. Guess what I chose... "Why the women's rights movement is failing" Yup, the last thing anyone would have chosen in that situation but thats why it's fun! I didn't actually believe most of the paper but I made the case with facts. The teacher was pissed. She emotionally graded the paper, as expected, and gave me an F. I sent her an email back explaining why her grade was wrong, that the facts actually supported the conclusion. The only thing she replied back with was my paper with a new grade on it: B




We can't really have this discussion without understanding that the U.S. is a part of the WHOLE WORLD and the mentality of rape culture is WORLD-WIDE. It's not "different" here. HAVE YOU SEEN THE STATISTICS OF FEMALES IN THE U.S. MILITARY GETTING RAPED ALL THE GOD DAMNED TIME? Seriously, if you want to be in a discussion about rape, you can't just make it about one small aspect of rape. Where is "personal responsibility" with little kids getting RAPED by priests? I'll give you HUNDREDS of other examples IN THIS COUNTRY where "personal responsibility" just DOES NOT APPLY and is insulting and a utopic bullshit copout used by people who need to stop watching Seinfeld and grow the fuck up.
Settle the fuck down. I never once said personal responsibility was the fix for all situations. I said that it shouldn't be something that is ruled out (as many seem to want for various reasons). As you said, it would be utopic to do that. We agree! The only thing we may disagree on is the current scope of this thread.

allegro
03-28-2013, 02:43 PM
No, you know what, this is a waste of my fucking time. This will go absolutely nowhere. It's useless and I have better things to do, in real life, with my time. Have fun. I'm outa this thread.

DigitalChaos
03-28-2013, 02:50 PM
No, you know what, this is a waste of my fucking time. This will go absolutely nowhere. It's useless and I have better things to do, in real life, with my time. Have fun. I'm outa this thread.
No shit. We aren't on a panel to create new policy or anything that impacts laws or general societal change. It's a debate thread on the internet!

Magtig
03-28-2013, 03:19 PM
The Steubenville rapists already knew it was wrong. They didn't care and/or didn't think they would get caught. That was pretty obvious. Do you disagree? That sums up just about every crime that requires a defensive approach to mitigate.
The facts that allegro, littlemonkey, myself and others have supplied have backed up what we were saying about rape culture with overall statistical trends and peer reviewed studies. I'm asking you to supply backup for your philosophy with supporting factual evidence. You seem absolutely convinced of how right you are, and I want to see if you're on to something.

Steubenville is one single instance of a greater issue, and this question is not worth answering as a stand alone. There are too many issues that go along with it to provide any meaningful answer to your question. The question itself paves the way for a red herring argument, and anyway how am I to know what is in someone's mind? I would be extremely surprised if these guys classified themselves as sex offenders before, during, or even after this incident. Maybe they do now? Who the hell knows? This is a pointless question on your part.

DigitalChaos
03-28-2013, 03:23 PM
The facts that allegro, littlemonkey, myself and others have supplied have backed up what we were saying about rape culture with overall statistical trends and peer reviewed studies. I'm asking you to supply backup for your philosophy with supporting factual evidence. You seem absolutely convinced of how right you are, and I want to see if you're on to something.

Steubenville is one single instance of a greater issue, and this question is not worth answering as a stand alone. There are too many issues that go along with it to provide any meaningful answer to your question. The question itself paves the way for a red herring argument, and anyway how am I to know what is in someone's mind? I would be extremely surprised if these guys classified themselves as sex offenders before, during, or even after this incident. Maybe they do now? Who the hell knows? This is a pointless question on your part.

So you refuse to answer my question about Steubenville. I will just assume it is because it forces you to agree with me on that specific situation.

Now tell me, what percentage of rapes happen where the rapist knows what they are doing is wrong? Do you know?

littlemonkey613
03-28-2013, 03:24 PM
The Steubenville rapists already knew it was wrong. They didn't care and/or didn't think they would get caught. That was pretty obvious. Do you disagree? That sums up just about every crime that requires a defensive approach to mitigate.

One of the witnesses said they didn't do anything because they didn't understand what rape was. Though I don't even know why I'm addressing this dumb as fuck excuse for logic since one case does not work as counter evidence towards data in surveying THOUSANDS OF YOUNG PEOPLE on this issue.

Are you even aware that the FBI definition of rape has changed in the last year and could you explain why?

Magtig
03-28-2013, 03:27 PM
So you refuse to answer my question about Steubenville. I will just assume it is because it forces you to agree with me on that specific situation.

Now tell me, what percentage of rapes happen where the rapist knows what they are doing is wrong? Do you know?My refusing to answer a bullshit question does not mean I agree with you. What is wrong with you?! Honestly?

You know what, you really need stop. You should not be in this thread. You are being really, really offensive, and you have no facts to support a single thing you're saying. None. You refuse to research. You refuse to learn. You refuse to even entertain the idea that you might be wrong about this.

You have no credibility.

DigitalChaos
03-28-2013, 03:37 PM
My refusing to answer a bullshit question does not mean I agree with you. What is wrong with you?! Honestly?

You know what, you really need stop. You should not be in this thread. You are being really, really offensive, and you have no facts to support a single thing you're saying. None. You refuse to research. You refuse to learn. You refuse to even entertain the idea that you might be wrong about this.

You have no credibility.

How predictable, you resort to an emotional appeal when wrong or have no other justification... just like your justification as to why we shouldn't tell people to defend themselves! I knew you wouldn't have any defense there. Although, I was expecting you to explode like you did with substanceabuse.

If you don't want to debate, that's fine. Tap out. Don't tell me to stop.

Magtig
03-28-2013, 03:38 PM
You have no justification. I asked for facts, you refuse to supply any. Forget emotional anything, THAT is a reason to stop debating.

Magtig
03-28-2013, 03:46 PM
Now tell me, what percentage of rapes happen where the rapist knows what they are doing is wrong? Do you know?

Btw, a specific answer to this question was posted in the previous page. You probably missed it while skimming through posts in your half assed way. Give it another shot.

http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/1520-Steubenville-trial-and-rape-culture?p=77964#post77964

DigitalChaos
03-28-2013, 03:59 PM
Btw, a specific answer to this question was posted in the previous page. You probably missed it while skimming through posts in your half assed way. Give it another shot.

http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/1520-Steubenville-trial-and-rape-culture?p=77964#post77964
Hey you actually delivered! That isn't a complete picture of what I was asking but it's enough to make the point... So, 35% of men said they would rape if they knew they could get away with it. That is a large chunk. How is teaching them what rape is going to change the fact that they already want to commit it? How can you justify not teaching people how to defend themselves and be aware of the dangers with things like "that blames the victims"?

Yes, a very large portion of those statistics indicate that people need to be taugh what rape is, but it doesn't give you justification to ignore defense and awareness (aka personal responsibility).

orestes
03-28-2013, 04:34 PM
But, we ain't in a perfect world; and this whole "personal responsibility" issue is a middle class white American's rhetoric by nice vanilla people who've never heard of "ethnic cleansing" or "raping a virgin to cure AIDS."

Yeeeeep which is the point I was trying to make in my previous post.

Also, raping a lesbian to convert to heterosexual.

littlemonkey613
03-28-2013, 05:02 PM
Yes, a very large portion of those statistics indicate that people need to be taugh what rape is, but it doesn't give you justification to ignore defense and awareness (aka personal responsibility).

Okay I'm going to try and drill this into your head one more time. We are not against teaching about danger and defense it is the fact that you refuse to analyze and critique your own phrasing of this as "personal responsibility". You are completely unaware of how your specific rhetoric effects many aspects of the issue. Insulting us by saying emotional plees mean nothing stinks of privilege and a lack of compassion. I witness the hurt that this phrasing and lack of thoughtfulness inflicts. Check your fucking privilege and educate yourself.

It is impossible to use that phrase and avoid holding victims accountable in some way for being assaulted, which is unjustifiable. Criticizing rape victims after the fact based on their situation should not be done in any instance ever. You have no right.

You can give comprehensive education on danger without resorting to this hateful bullshit, and if you take one god damn minute to actually think about what I am saying without wanting to fight me on this you will see that the ideas don't depend on each other, and that contributing to the culture of shame even in the slightest way is something we cannot be doing, especially since it is unnecessary. It is the inherent implications of your rhetoric that is the problem, and saying "that's not what you mean" doesn't change that.

Magtig
03-28-2013, 05:25 PM
Yes, a very large portion of those statistics indicate that people need to be taugh what rape is
Great, so you agree with us. I accept your apology.


but it doesn't give you justification to ignore defense and awareness (aka personal responsibility).
I never did. See my post on page 3 about how I would counsel my own daughter.

Can we have those facts you don't seem to have now?

DigitalChaos
03-28-2013, 05:53 PM
Great, so you agree with us. I accept your apology.


I never did. See my post on page 3 about how I would counsel my own daughter.

Can we have those facts you don't seem to have now?

ahem... You absolutely implied that personal responsibility had no place in the topic....

this endless discussion about a rape victim's supposed culpability is exactly what happens when you focus on drinking instead of the real problem: blame the victim culture/rape culture.




Although, there was this gem from the person who just "liked" your post and has been much more involved in the last few pages:

WE DO NOT HAVE A PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE OUR OWN RAPES LESS LIKELY



I'll assume that both of you have changed the polar stance to accept that BOTH are important. That stance is THE thing that I (and one (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/1520-Steubenville-trial-and-rape-culture?p=77784#post77784) or two (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/threads/1520-Steubenville-trial-and-rape-culture?p=77870#post77870) others) were arguing about.

littlemonkey613
03-28-2013, 05:56 PM
Holy shit you actually still don't understand. Your decision to frame education on danger and self defense as personal responsibility is the fundamental problem here. No one who is actually educated on the issue chooses to express those sentiments in the way that you do FOR A REASON. Framing it as personal responsibility implies victim blaming due to the nature of the phrase, which is not necessary in order to do what you want. God fuck.

"Personal responsibility" has no place in this discussion because the implications of that word choice has no place in this discussion. Victim blaming has no place in this discussion, something that you are inadvertently doing by not giving a damn about your word choice.

How we choose to frame these issues is really really important due to the complexity of victim blaming as a societal institution and the complexity of the culture of shame. Got it?

You are the one who assumed the "personal responsibility" vs. trying to lower the number of rapists binary, even though that is not something we have expressed. It is because you have used that specific phrase that we have to double down on anti victim blaming sentiments. If you never decided to frame your argument so insensitively we wouldn't have even have had to go there.

DigitalChaos
03-28-2013, 06:11 PM
Holy shit you actually still don't understand. Your decision to frame education on danger and self defense as personal responsibility is the fundamental problem here. No one who is actually educated on the issue chooses to express those sentiments in the way that you do FOR A REASON. Framing it as personal responsibility implies victim blaming due to the nature of the phrase, which is not necessary in order to do what you want. God fuck.

"Personal responsibility" has no place in this discussion because the implications of that word choice has no place in this discussion. Victim blaming has no place in this discussion, something that you are inadvertently doing by not giving a damn about your word choice.

How we choose to frame these issues is really really important due to the complexity of victim blaming as a societal institution and the complexity of the culture of shame. Got it?

You are the one who assumed the "personal responsibility" vs. trying to lower the number of rapists binary, even though that is not something we have expressed. It is because you have used that specific phrase that we have to double down on anti victim blaming sentiments. If you never decided to frame your argument so insensitively we wouldn't have even have had to go there.

You are *literally* saying that you would rather argue about semantics than the core idea. This isn't an outreach campaign to the world. It's a debate thread about ideas corresponding to a larger topic. Your emotions are preventing you from focusing on the ideas. Instead, you focus on actual semantics where it just doesn't matter in context of the discussion. It's so bad that several other people interpreted you as having a problem with the core idea.

Is that really neccessary?

littlemonkey613
03-28-2013, 06:20 PM
YES! It is necessary! It is necessary because your rhetoric actually has an adverse effect. Furthermore you are really digging yourself into a hole with your "emotions" argument. I am emotional because this issue has caused me a great deal of personal pain and is integral to my every day life. Can you say the same? I am not being prevented from focusing on the "actual ideas". The semantics actually carry implications and thats why it matters. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. If other people misinterpreting me is a problem isn't it a too a problem that so many people have interpreted what you have said as victim blaming?

The idea that someone can and should be held accountable and have to answer to personal "failing" in relation to the circumstances surrounding their rape is a part of the core ideas we are talking about. That is what your phrasing implies and its not okay.

hollowed_point
03-28-2013, 07:17 PM
Wow. This discussion has exploded. First, let me say, just to make it clear how I feel, that it is entirely wrong to say that anyone who is raped has any "personal failings" that led to their rape, and informing young people of what constitutes rape is of the utmost importance.

Your stats a page back sort of surprise me, littlemonkey, but they sort of don't. I mean that I wouldn't have predicted many of those stats being that high, but at the same time I'm not surprised that things were worse than I would've anticipated.

That being said, one stat in particular stuck out to me


· 73% of the assailants and 55% of the victims had used alcohol or other drugs prior to the assault;

This is what I was referencing when I said I want to teach my children to make smart decisions and not put themselves in dangerous situations. Sure, we all have a right to have fun and party, and we shouldn't have to worry about people taking advantage of us when we are inebriated, but unfortunately that's just not the case. Partying and having fun are one thing, partying until you are completely incapacitated is quite another. That's the lesson I hope to be able to teach my kids. Knowing your limits when it comes to drugs and alcohol can save you from many​ dangers, not just rape.

littlemonkey613
03-28-2013, 07:23 PM
^ Right, the problem is that DigitalChaos started expressing their point by saying the Steubenville victim had "some failed personal responsibility", is all.

DigitalChaos
03-28-2013, 07:36 PM
Here is my full quote:

Has anyone addressed the fact that allowing yourself to get blackout drunk around a bunch of rape-bros is probably a bad idea? And that there is some failed personal responsibility of the victim in many of these situations?

hollowed_point
03-28-2013, 07:46 PM
If I was her father and someone tried to tell her that she had failed at personal responsibility, I'd be pretty pissed off at them.
With my own kids, I hope to be able to teach them life lessons so that they can avoid situations like this one, but I certainly am aware that never, at any point, can we be in complete control of our environment.

Having to deal with being a victim of sexual assault for the rest of her life is bad enough, but it seems she also has the entire town/high school population shitting on her life/reputation. I wouldn't doubt for a minute that her parents will consider having to move because of this situation, and that's fucking unacceptable. To stack personal guilt on top of all the other horrible repercussions would be just plain fucked up.

My point is we need to teach children EVERYTHING that you guys are arguing about. What constitutes rape, what is/isn't acceptable, and for gods shitting sake, be aware of your surroundings and make smart decisions! If you do decide to drink/do drugs, do it responsibly and in a safe environment! Getting so fucked up that you can't control yourself is a recipe for disaster in so many ways.

DigitalChaos
03-28-2013, 08:22 PM
Absolutely. Talking about responsibility to a victim (or their family) does nothing positive and is just plain shitty.

We do need to talk about 100% of this if we want to maximize a reduction in the number of victims.

I'm curious about how rape rates are distributed across the USA. Is there a pattern in the same way gun crime rates exist?(for example)

Magtig
03-28-2013, 09:40 PM
If I was her father and someone tried to tell her that she had failed at personal responsibility, I'd be pretty pissed off at them.
With my own kids, I hope to be able to teach them life lessons so that they can avoid situations like this one, but I certainly am aware that never, at any point, can we be in complete control of our environment.

Having to deal with being a victim of sexual assault for the rest of her life is bad enough, but it seems she also has the entire town/high school population shitting on her life/reputation. I wouldn't doubt for a minute that her parents will consider having to move because of this situation, and that's fucking unacceptable. To stack personal guilt on top of all the other horrible repercussions would be just plain fucked up.

My point is we need to teach children EVERYTHING that you guys are arguing about. What constitutes rape, what is/isn't acceptable, and for gods shitting sake, be aware of your surroundings and make smart decisions! If you do decide to drink/do drugs, do it responsibly and in a safe environment! Getting so fucked up that you can't control yourself is a recipe for disaster in so many ways.
I agree with you on all of this. I always have. If you snip single statements out of my posts like DigitalChaos just did above, you're going to miss where I'm coming from. Lord knows I've tried to set you two straight, but you just wouldn't have it.

Here's the crux of the matter, why I keep saying that the focus is off if all we're talking about is drinking (a point that DigitalChaos just made).

From page 2:

You know, jessamineny mentioned that this whole line about 'teach women not to drink' is practical although it can feel an awful lot like blaming the victim, and even though it makes sense to teach people to be vigilant and not put themselves in vulnerable situations and I better understand where allegro's coming from now, it still feels exactly like blaming the victim. I'm very pro women learning self defense and being aware of their surroundings, but I also understand that I'm not their dad.

This entire conversation started when I posted the CNN video where the anchors sympathized with the rapists. If I recall correctly, allegro immediately launched into this entire line of reasoning about teaching young women not to drink. As I've said before, I do agree with the points she's making about reforming our cultural problem with binge drinking, and I recognize that this issue puts women at an increased risk of rape. However, I haven't been able to track down information that rape in teens has increased as an overall statistical trend since the introduction of alcoholic beverages aimed at women. I have tracked down information that rape in general has been on a slow and steady decline in the US for a number of years, despite it still being a huge problem, and also despite the fact that the US has a higher statistical rape rate than most European countries. I just haven't seen a strong connection with hard evidence, even though I agree that it makes sense given the connection that rape has to alcohol.

[EDIT: Here is the part where so called "semantics" becomes important] The point I want to make is this: when a conversation starts about rape culture and feminists (or anyone else) immediately start saying that women should be taught to not drink (which is absolutely punitive in nature) it doesn't really matter how correct they are. The timing and introduction of these points about alcohol create a correlation that matters. In a similar fashion the Bush administration convinced the US that Iraq had a connection to Al Qaeda simply by mentioning two true talking points next to each other over and over until the totally false connection between the two formed in minds of the people; it created a false cause. The same principle is at work here no matter how well intentioned.
I made that last part really big and red and bold, because I don't want you and DigitalChaos to go getting lost in the weeds over some of the other content of the post. That part right there is why timing and semantics matter. Please note that earlier in the post I'm talking about how we definitely need to address problems with drinking in our culture.

So, this whole conversation came to a head on page TWO. And yet, the drinking thing just wouldn't die. I became frustrated about it because even at that point in this thread things were going into broken record territory. Which is where the quote on page 3 came from. Here it is in full (the red is (seemingly) one side, the bold the other:

Honestly, I kind of hate that this whole thread is basically a discussion on the drinking habits of women and whether it's okay to brow beat them regarding their own culpability in rape or not. I get the practical argument, and if I were a father I would absolutely counsel my daughter not to put herself in a compromising situation, but that's shit that every good parent should do with their kid regardless of gender. [EDIT] HENCE: Basically, the focus seems completely off to me.
Note that nowhere did I say that getting blackout drunk doesn't put you at a higher risk (for all sorts of bad things). I have said exactly the opposite, explicitly. I have also never denied that the world is big bad and scary and requires a practical approach.

I have tried and tried to get you and DigitalChaos to simply read the conversation from page one, mistakenly thinking that you would then understand. I was totally wrong about that, and it made this problem feel crushingly depressing and as if it were just too broken to even fix because your initial responses are not unique in the slightest, in fact, they're typical. In that regard you are a part of rape culture because even though you think it's awful and you don't believe in it, you're unwittingly contributing to that false cause fallacy.

And with that, I'm going to take the night off.

hollowed_point
03-28-2013, 10:34 PM
I have tried and tried to get you and DigitalChaos to simply read the conversation from page one, mistakenly thinking that you would then understand. I was totally wrong about that, and it made this problem feel crushingly depressing and as if it were just too broken to even fix because your initial responses are not unique in the slightest, in fact, they're typical. In that regard you are a part of rape culture because even though you think it's awful and you don't believe in it, you're unwittingly contributing to that false cause fallacy.

I'm part of the rape culture because I believe teaching kids that binge drinking can and does lead to horrible decisions? That the likelihood of being sexually abused skyrockets when you make yourself more vulnerable to the sickest people in this world by being incapable of making rational decisions? Do we really need statistics and researchers to tell us that this is a fact? Get off your fucking high horse. In this case, and many, many others like it, alcohol/drugs directly correlate to the crimes that were committed, case closed.

I'll give you that spreading knowledge about alcohol/drugs won't stop every rape, because they aren't involved in every rape, but


· 73% of the assailants and 55% of the victims had used alcohol or other drugs prior to the assault;

is a pretty fucking high percentage among college kids, and it's no doubt higher with high school kids.

Alcohol/drugs should most definitely not be the ONLY thing we're talking about, but to say it's a false connection/cause is flat out wrong.

littlemonkey613
03-28-2013, 11:08 PM
That's not what they're saying :/

hollowed_point
03-28-2013, 11:12 PM
[EDIT: Here is the part where so called "semantics" becomes important] The point I want to make is this: when a conversation starts about rape culture and feminists (or anyone else) immediately start saying that women should be taught to not drink (which is absolutely punitive in nature) it doesn't really matter how correct they are. The timing and introduction of these points about alcohol create a correlation that matters. In a similar fashion the Bush administration convinced the US that Iraq had a connection to Al Qaeda simply by mentioning two true talking points next to each other over and over until the totally false connection between the two formed in minds of the people; it created a false cause. The same principle is at work here no matter how well intentioned.


Honestly, I kind of hate that this whole thread is basically a discussion on the drinking habits of women and whether it's okay to brow beat them regarding their own culpability in rape or not. I get the practical argument, and if I were a father I would absolutely counsel my daughter not to put herself in a compromising situation, but that's shit that every good parent should do with their kid regardless of gender. [EDIT] HENCE: Basically, the focus seems completely off to me.

That's sure what it sounds like to me. No one is brow beating women about their culpability concerning drinking/rape, but there certainly is a direct correlation worth discussing, and it certainly isn't a "false cause".

DigitalChaos
03-28-2013, 11:41 PM
How would you (especally @Magtig (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=755) and @littlemonkey613 (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=497) ) go about conveying the importance of self-defense, situational awareness, etc? I fear that taming the message so that victims do not feel self-concious will lead to future victims not realizing quite how important or impacting it really is. At some level, you are trading future victims for mental/emotional health of existing victims. What level is acceptable, if any?

Magtig
03-28-2013, 11:51 PM
In response to substanceabuse

Okay, there are two problems here: the rape culture problem and the drinking culture problem.

TWO. DIFFERENT. PROBLEMS.

Hang on, speedy, I know... they have a link. Hold. On.

Rape culture problem = blaming the victim, saying that person shares in the blame because they were irresponsibly drunk, wore tight clothes, walked in the wrong place, flirted too much, lead someone on, etc.

Drinking culture problem = kids drinking to excess.

Getting blackout drunk is not cool. Great. It increases the instance of rape. We all get that.

People getting raped is not cool. Great.

Still here?

90% of this thread is about drinking too much.

10% (at best) is about the parts of our culture that excuse, apologize for, perpetuate, and side with the perpetrators of rape. We have next to nothing on a justice system that is so lopsided towards rapists it belongs in a third world country. Nor can I recall mention of an overall cultural trend to shun women who have been raped ("damaged goods"). It goes on and on. Any of these things I've just mentioned surely deserve at least as much mention as drinking, right? The "justice" system alone should have that much.

So here's what happened: someone got raped. Most of this thread is discussion involving drinking.

What I'm saying is that this puts the onus squarely on the rape victim by proximity of conversation, and not even intentionally in this case, but often in our big bad world, it IS intentionally.

Magtig
03-29-2013, 12:06 AM
How would you (especally @Magtig (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=755) and @littlemonkey613 (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=497) ) go about conveying the importance of self-defense, situational awareness, etc?
I feel like the second part of your post goes off into something that I'm not, and have not ever been saying, so I'll address the first part instead.

I think self defense for women (and everyone, really) should be a required course in grade school, high school and college. I actively teach my own romantic interests the self defense that I know. Women should be more than well aware of the statistics on rape including the where, how, when and who of it. I don't think anyone has ever said that this is not important.

If we are going to talk about preventative measures, we need to talk about more than just self defense and situational awareness. We HAVE to talk about the ways that our culture contributes to this massive problem, and the incredibly poor ways that we (don't) prosecute it, but we don't really. We talk about things like how much the person who was raped drank. This isn't about handling people with kid gloves; it's about the culture. I tried to break it down as simply as I could in the post above.. but I'm feeling pretty hopeless about it at this point, regardless of where the fault lies (you misinterpreting or me not explaining it well enough). Like all things: knowledge is power.

hollowed_point
03-29-2013, 12:06 AM
In response to @substanceabuse (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=1022)

Okay, there are two problems here: the rape culture problem and the drinking culture problem.

TWO. DIFFERENT. PROBLEMS.

Well no shit. Do you always come across as a pompous ass when you talk? I imagine that's very tiring for others.


Hang on, speedy, I know... they have a link. Hold. On.

Rape culture problem = blaming the victim, saying that person shares in the blame because they were irresponsibly drunk, wore tight clothes, walked in the wrong place, flirted too much, lead someone on, etc.

Drinking culture problem = kids drinking to excess.

Getting blackout drunk is not cool. Great. It increases the instance of rape. We all get that.

People getting raped is not cool. Great.

Still here?

Yawn.


90% of this thread is about drinking too much.

10% (at best) is about the parts of our culture that excuse, apologize for, perpetuate, and side with the perpetrators of rape. We have next to nothing on a justice system that is so lopsided towards rapists it belongs in a third world country. Nor can I recall mention of an overall cultural trend to shun women who have been raped ("damaged goods"). It goes on and on. Any of these things I've just mentioned surely deserve at least as much mention as drinking, right? The "justice" system alone should have that much.

Not one damned person, that I've seen, said those issues deserved less credit. This thread is labeled "STEUBENVILLE TRIAL and rape culture", so most everything I've been saying relates to THE STEUBENVILLE CASE and ones similar to it. On top of that, I've seen multiple posts relating to the harsher punishment of those found guilty of rape. The fact that alcohol played a HUGE part in these types of cases DESERVES a lot of attention, because it's one of the most important factors.


So here's what happened: someone got raped. Most of this thread is discussion involving drinking.

What I'm saying is that this puts the onus squarely on the rape victim by proximity of conversation, and not even intentionally in this case, but often in our big bad world, it IS intentionally.


In the case of any primary media outlet, yes I'd agree with you, but this is an internal discussion on an internet message board, and talking about things that HIGHLY relate to this case (and countless others like it) seems somewhat relevant to me.

Magtig
03-29-2013, 12:33 AM
Not one damned person, that I've seen, said those issues deserved less credit.
I never said anyone said these things deserved less credit. I pointed out that those issues have seen only about 10% of the attention.


This thread is labeled "STEUBENVILLE TRIAL and rape culture", so most everything I've been saying relates to THE STEUBENVILLE CASE and ones similar to it.
I get that, but this thread originated in Random General Headlines and was at least a page long before it was separated. Additionally, most of the aspects of rape culture have received very little play in this thread (90% drinking, 10% other as I estimated).


In the case of any primary media outlet, yes I'd agree with you, but this is an internal discussion on an internet message board...
Except that in this internal discussion on an internet message board, 90% of it is about drinking, and 10% is about all the other aspects of rape culture. So, really... you agree with me. Lol.

Jinsai
03-29-2013, 12:59 AM
Well no shit. Do you always come across as a pompous ass when you talk? I imagine that's very tiring for others.

Yeah, it's almost like he's about to do something condescending like rebut your next point by just saying "yawn."


Yawn.

Touche...


On top of that, I've seen multiple posts relating to the harsher punishment of those found guilty of rape. The fact that alcohol played a HUGE part in these types of cases DESERVES a lot of attention, because it's one of the most important factors.
It's one of the most important factors for people who want to derail this thread into a discussion about properly warning our children about how best to not get raped... which, in context, implies this victim did something wrong, and if only she'd been well enough instructed how to avoid making herself a vulnerable target of being gang raped while unconscious, this never would have happened. It's kind of insane that we've gotten to this point, and that the discussion has been dominated by points about the dangers of drinking, or whether or not we should even be talking about that.


In the case of any primary media outlet, yes I'd agree with you, but this is an internal discussion on an internet message board, and talking about things that HIGHLY relate to this case (and countless others like it) seems somewhat relevant to me.

It's an internal discussion on a message board, yes, and you say this as though you have never heard of concepts like "derailing a thread." If you want to make a point about how girls should know to be careful not to get wasted in situations where they might get raped in the midst of this internet message board's internal discussion (that was previously focused on rape culture and how our media is playing along with it).... well, at least understand why some people think it's annoying.

Nobody is implying that kids should be irresponsible, but if you don't think this is an easy drift into something that has nothing to do with what we were originally talking about, you're joking. Because here we are.

hollowed_point
03-29-2013, 01:26 AM
Yeah, it's almost like he's about to do something condescending like rebut your next point by just saying "yawn."
Really? You're chastising me for being condescending?

This is what you took from my statement? This problem is more serious than I thought. We need to talk about another aspect of rape that gets vastly under-reported. As clearly evidenced in this thread rape can turn some men -and possibly even women- let's call them "non-rapees" into complete retards. In severe cases they may lose reading comprehension skills, and the motivation to think critically and with compassion.

Should I spoon feed your feeble little brains and copy and paste the posts I have made IN THIS THREAD advocating the need for personal responsibility? Can you stupid people at least stop typing until you've read this massive four pager? It's not 1980 anymore, update your goddamn social software.


You didn't add anything to this conversation. Neither did Digital Chaos. Not. One. Single. Thing. Nothing. Not at all. Zip. Zero. Zilchola! Everything you've said has been said before, but better, and by better people. (I was going to call you a retard again, but I figured it was strongly implied.)

And yes, that did definitely make me feel better.

/dickhole


Lord knows I've tried to set you two straight


In that regard you are a part of rape culture because even though you think it's awful and you don't believe in it, you're unwittingly contributing to that false cause fallacy.

of which I take particular offense to.


It's one of the most important factors for people who want to derail this thread into a discussion about properly warning our children about how best to not get raped... which, in context, implies this victim did something wrong, and if only she'd been well enough instructed how to avoid making herself a vulnerable target of being gang raped while unconscious, this never would have happened. It's kind of insane that we've gotten to this point, and that the discussion has been dominated by points about the dangers of drinking, or whether or not we should even be talking about that.

Really? You think I'm trying to "derail" this thread? I'm talking about issues that HEAVILY relate to the Steubenville case (and as I've said before, countless others like it) and I'm trying to derail the thread? I guess I missed the point of talking about this case from the get-go then.

I have stated COUNTLESS times how in no way do I believe the victim is responsible, but EMPOWERING kids with every bit of knowledge we can to protect themselves is vital! If it's insane to INSIST, in DIRECT correlation to sexual misconduct/violence, that we teach kids about alcohol/drugs and our responsibilities with them, then I'm certifiably nucking futs.


It's an internal discussion on a message board, yes, and you say this as though you have never heard of concepts like "derailing a thread." If you want to make a point about how girls should know to be careful not to get wasted in situations where they might get raped in the midst of this internet message board's internal discussion (that was previously focused on rape culture and how our media is playing along with it).... well, at least understand why some people think it's annoying.

Nobody is implying that kids should be irresponsible, but if you don't think this is an easy drift into something that has nothing to do with what we were originally talking about, you're joking. Because here we are

As far as I've seen this thread was about Steubenville and cases similar to it (of which there are TONS). Rape culture worldwide as a broad stroke has been a side issue that is related to this case but doesn't contain all of the same factors. There's not any one, two, three, four, five, or TEN different answers that solve the WORLDWIDE culture towards rape, but that's how it is. There's never an easy answer.

Magtig
03-29-2013, 01:41 AM
Whoa, whoa, whoa. You took out all the bits where you were not reading stuff and misinterpreting everything. It's almost like you were begging for me to be a condescending dickhole. I mean, come on man, claim some personal responsibility here. You played a role in my dickness, you sexy not-reading minx, you.

hollowed_point
03-29-2013, 01:54 AM
Begging for you to be a condescending dickhole? I don't know that I've ever spoken with someone so full of themselves. Congratulations, you win. If you want someone to take responsibility for crapping on the carpet, let alone "playing a role in your dickness", don't finish your request by calling them your "sexy not-reading minx, you." You can fuck right off.

As I said, quite awhile ago, before you informed me of how invalid my opinion is,


All it takes is one smart decision to avoid being another statistic.

and I stand by that point. There is no true 100% prevention, but every single, tiny little bit helps, and if that means incorporating our desire to inform teens of the dangers of alcohol/drugs in DIRECT correlation to sexual misconduct/violence, I am 100% for it.

Jinsai
03-29-2013, 02:21 AM
Really? You think I'm trying to "derail" this thread?

Who knows. All I'm saying is this thread has turned into what feels like a discussion about the ultimate point behind the movie The Accused.

...and I'm done.

Magtig
03-29-2013, 02:22 AM
@substanceabuse (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=1022) Look, I'm not saying you're *totally* at fault, but you wandered into the bad part of the Stupidville thread where bad things happen, and now you need to accept that you have some measure of culpability in being dickholed to. It's undeniable, really.

icklekitty
03-29-2013, 08:03 AM
I'm not sure if it's been pointed out yet, but let's assume that personal accountability is unarguably important. If you're not sure of your environment, if you think you need to look out for yourself, if you think someone's going to take advantage of you, you won't drink so much. Maybe you won't drink at all. Ok.

This girl went to a party where the people there were people she knew. Her friends and classmates. They weren't "rape bros" at the time, they were some jocks from school. She thought she was safe. Had John Wayne Gacy or Myra Hindley been in attendance, had it been a college party when she was a highschooler, had it been a party that she had been coerced into attending "to look cool" (or whatever the fuck it is you Americans do with your weekends) she might have seen the signs to put down the bottle.

I hope this trial scares similar fuck-hungry/social-media frenzied teens into drinking less and thinking twice too. Yeah, LOL, you pissed on her and uploaded it to Instagram. Have fun with that 50 year old cellmate that's going to do that to you for the entirety of your jail sentence because seeing his father do that to his mother when he was a kid turned him into a violent criminal.

Dra508
03-29-2013, 08:30 AM
.

I hope this trial scares similar fuck-hungry/social-media frenzied teens into drinking less and thinking twice too. Yeah, LOL, you pissed on her and uploaded it to Instagram. Have fun with that 50 year old cellmate that's going to do that to you for the entirety of your jail sentence because seeing his father do that to his mother when he was a kid turned him into a violent criminal.
I'm not holding my breath. This thread has lasted longer then this conversation has in the US media. My fear is it'll take what happened to that girl on the bus in India, to happen in the US, for enough people to wake the fuck up.

orestes
03-29-2013, 09:39 AM
substanceabuse, please engage discussion in a civil manner. There's no need to call people names.

hollowed_point
03-29-2013, 10:43 AM
substanceabuse, please engage discussion in a civil manner. There's no need to call people names.

In all fairness, I only got ugly with my responses when magtigs first response to my first post was implying that 1. I'm retarded, 2. I have a tiny brain, and 3. I'm stupid. But at this point, I've said all I want to say, so I'm done.

littlemonkey613
03-29-2013, 01:21 PM
How would you (especally @Magtig (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=755) and @littlemonkey613 (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=497) ) go about conveying the importance of self-defense, situational awareness, etc? I fear that taming the message so that victims do not feel self-concious will lead to future victims not realizing quite how important or impacting it really is. At some level, you are trading future victims for mental/emotional health of existing victims. What level is acceptable, if any?

My whole entire point is that this message does not depend on using words that imply someone will be held accountable for and answerable to a "mistake" if they do end up drinking, blacking out and then getting raped. You have this really strange way of understanding this topic and have created another weird artificial binary.

The other odd part of your question is that you still haven't admitted that you have a personal responsibility to educate your own child in detail about the nature of consent and what makes sexual assault, sexual assault. I don't believe you can convey the message you want to in any smart manner without doing this.

Any way, yeah "you have a personal responsibility to lower your risk" is not necessary in order to convey importance. Reality does that on its own. I just don't understand why you are married to that rhetoric. Your inability to move on from it tells me that you still don't understand how complex and deep the culture of shame and blame related to sexual assault goes and how many facets of the culture it effects.

In short I would teach a combination of my personal experience, what I've witnessed, a comprehensive education on the nature of rape and and consent, along with the importance of situational awareness and self-defense without using rhetoric that implies they will be held accountable if something were to happen to them.......is it really that fucking hard? You also need to start looking into why victims don't speak up. 43% of respondents in the data I showed you before told NO ONE about what happened to them. If you don't think this is related to a culture which creates future victims you're wrong. Further more, guess what many people who are victims of sexual assault are victims of sexual assault more than once, so once again the words you choose matter!

Telling people to look out for number one because it can't be sure that anyone else will does not depend on also telling them that they have a personal responsibility to lower and manage their risk of getting raped. Do you understand the distinction? One of them alludes to accountability if something were to happen to them....that notion of accountability is a KILLER when it comes to this issue.

Self preservation in relation to rape does not have to be inscribed with notions of duty and accountability in order to be a potent idea. Thats all I'm saying. There is enough at stake where we don't have to resort to that, so we shouldn't because of how it negatively effects this all anyways.

DigitalChaos
03-29-2013, 02:24 PM
I think self defense for women (and everyone, really) should be a required course in grade school, high school and college. I actively teach my own romantic interests the self defense that I know. Women should be more than well aware of the statistics on rape including the where, how, when and who of it. I don't think anyone has ever said that this is not important.

You don't think victims will feel shame if they get raped and feel like they dropped the ball on "the basic stuff that everybody gets taught in school these days"? I want to understand the apparent threshold that you guys seem to have defined.


You have this really strange way of understanding this topic and have created another weird artificial binary.

Any way, yeah "you have a personal responsibility to lower your risk" is not necessary in order to convey importance. Reality does that on its own. I just don't understand why you are married to that rhetoric.

It's not binary at all. Its a sliding scale between "intense message that drives the point home as efficiently as possible" and "so mild that nobody pays attention."
You seem to be focused on some middle ground. Which is fine, if that's what you think is right. I just disagree. The target audience of a rape prevention message is not the victims, its potential future victims. I also don't belive in softening reality because it removes people's ability to make fully informed decisions.





You have this really strange way of understanding this topic and have created another weird artificial binary.

Any way, yeah "you have a personal responsibility to lower your risk" is not necessary in order to convey importance. Reality does that on its own. I just don't understand why you are married to that rhetoric.

It's not binary at all. Its a sliding scale between "intense, real-world message that drives the point home as efficiently as possible" and "so mild that nobody pays attention."
You seem to be focused on some middle ground. Which is fine, if that's what you think is right. I just disagree. The target audience of a rape prevention message is not the victims, its potential future victims. I also don't belive in softening reality because it removes people's ability to make fully informed decisions.






Telling people to look out for number one because it can't be sure that anyone else will does not depend on also telling them that they have a personal responsibility to lower and manage their risk of getting raped.

I honestly see no difference between either statement. Anyone who isn't dumb as a rock is going to understand that "look out for yourself because you aren't garaunteed protection" implies "you need to to protect yourself and be aware of your environment to reduce your risks."

Do you really think a rape victim, who is going to be excessively introspective, isn't going to think about the things they could have done differently? Way to downplay people's intelligence. If I were a rape victim and people were talking to me like I was dumb, it would just be an insult.



This girl went to a party where the people there were people she knew. Her friends and classmates. They weren't "rape bros" at the time, they were some jocks from school. She thought she was safe. Had John Wayne Gacy or Myra Hindley been in attendance, had it been a college party when she was a highschooler, had it been a party that she had been coerced into attending "to look cool" (or whatever the fuck it is you Americans do with your weekends) she might have seen the signs to put down the bottle.

Which is exactly why situational awareness and self preservation needs some focus. That is not the place to get blackout drunk. More people need to know this. Why didn't she seem to know? Did she know and just chose to ignore it? Why can't we tell other people that there are very very few locations they are safe once they have removed their capacity to be aware of their surroundings?

icklekitty
03-29-2013, 02:36 PM
She thought she was in one of those very very few locations, that's the point. That's the whole fucking point of abuse. What would you describe as the safe locations? Around family members? When alone at home? Newsflash, rape occurs in those situations too.



I'm not holding my breath. This thread has lasted longer then this conversation has in the US media. My fear is it'll take what happened to that girl on the bus in India, to happen in the US, for enough people to wake the fuck up.


:/ Looks like it's getting closer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-21974375

littlemonkey613
03-29-2013, 05:16 PM
It's not binary at all. Its a sliding scale between "intense message that drives the point home as efficiently as possible" and "so mild that nobody pays attention."


This is a complete figure of your imagination. You don't see the difference between the two sentences that I laid out because you haven't read enough or heard enough in regards to rape culture, victim blaming and the culture of shame, something that is really evident. The phrase "personal responsibility" is the one I am attacking because it controls how you express yourself on the topic from the moment you frame it as such. Intensity of message and effectiveness is not dependent on that phrase and how you specifically have chosen to talk about this. I am calling out the way you specifically have chosen to talk about this because your rhetoric encompasses many problems within rape culture to begin with.

You've created a false spectrum based on your own limited understanding then placed what I am saying accordingly.

Your actually still not understanding what I'm saying........

Framing something as something they can be held accountable for and responsible for answering to, and framing something on the basis of self preservation , are not the same thing. If you still cannot tell the difference all I have to say is READ UP.

You need to stop thinking about this in terms of heinous individual acts and understand that this is all a part of systems of oppression. Your language does matter. You need to look up the culture we find ourselves in, one in which rape victims are held accountable for every thing they did before their assault, and be comfortable with these concepts as much as possible when you talk about this. It will not dilute your message or make it less potent if you're doing it right.

At my own school right now I am working on attacking my admin for creating a false notion of safety at fraternities in which so many students feel comfortable blacking out without proper warning of the risk, or any acknowledgement that the danger even exists. (The problem is faces are put on the risk which no one wants to do, ala rape culture..)

Your problem is you refuse to see how the kind of language you employ is functioning in the broader context of this debate, and I'm just trying to help you see that because I see the negative effects of that sense of accountability in my real life and its not pretty. We should be teaching on the basis of self interest not in terms defined by accountability.

aggroculture
03-29-2013, 05:27 PM
She thought she was safe.

^^^^^^^^^^
THIS x a billion.

It's common knowledge that most people are raped by someone they know, and in many cases, trust. This is why "personal accountability" is such a red herring and conversation derailer. There is, in many cases, no special preparation anyone can undergo to prevent a rape. Also, this type of thinking is only a few steps away from: "women should wear a chador. Or how about a chastity belt?"
The conversation has to be shifted - Zerlina Maxwell is right - to teach people not to rape.
I grew up in a feminist household, was taught from a young age what rape is; there were books about rape on the shelves, and movies such as The Accused. It boggles the mind that not all kids are getting that kind of education. Why aren't they? Also, why is it that these guys feel that sex is something - almost an object - that women are withholding from them, and that they feel entitled to take, even with force? Why do they view sex as a conquest rather than a meaningful meeting of equals? Sex has become this horrible empty signifier of power and domination and status and hierarchy, and that's really sad.

Magtig
03-29-2013, 06:24 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa. You took out all the bits where you were not reading stuff and misinterpreting everything. It's almost like you were begging for me to be a condescending dickhole. I mean, come on man, claim some personal responsibility here. You played a role in my dickness, you sexy not-reading minx, you.

Look, I'm not saying you're *totally* at fault, but you wandered into the bad part of the Stupidville thread where bad things happen, and now you need to accept that you have some measure of culpability in being dickholed to. It's undeniable, really.
Okay, I wasn't trying to be a dick with these posts, @substanceabuse (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=1022) and @DigitalChaos (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=598). I was trying to get you to look at this issue from a different perspective in a humorous way: that of the rapist, and his justifications (see, hilarious). In these two posts being a condescending dickhole is an analogue to rape. I assumed the role of the rapist to make a point. The other parts were meant to represent parts of rape culture: you were asking for it, you have some culpability, you were in the wrong part of Stupidville, etc.

I was attempting to point out that the thing about all of this personal accountability stuff is that it's the exact same argument(s) an actual rapist will use in an actual trial, because it puts the onus squarely on the victim. You share in the blame because x, y, z, f, u, so I should be set free/get a reduced sentence/etc.

Regardless of @substanceabuse (http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/member.php?u=1022) being flat-back drunk on iRage at the time, I really have no excuse for losing my cool and being a dickhole.

Jinsai
03-29-2013, 07:34 PM
This is why "personal accountability" is such a red herring and conversation derailer. There is, in many cases, no special preparation anyone can undergo to prevent a rape. Also, this type of thinking is only a few steps away from: "women should wear a chador. Or how about a chastity belt?"

Yep. Reminds me of this bit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh4I1Yqq7EM

DigitalChaos
03-29-2013, 11:05 PM
I see the negative effects of that sense of accountability in my real life and its not pretty. We should be teaching on the basis of self interest not in terms defined by accountability.
This really closes in on the issue for me. I see "personal responsibility" as a much closer phrase to "self interest" than "accountability." The only accountability is to yourself, when it concerns personal responsibility.

When did the meaning of "personal responsibility" start to move away from this? If this is the popular opinion of the phrase, it really explains a lot about society today (way way outside of the rape topic).

Am I reading you correctly? Is this where we are disagreeing? If so, I am curious how much deeper the divide on this interpretation runs. Is it a regional difference? political difference? etc

littlemonkey613
04-01-2013, 01:08 AM
^ I guess it just comes down to the fact that it is pretty impossible to say a victim is not responsible at all for their attack if we also say that they failed when it comes to personal responsibility within the context of their rape situation.

For anyone whose interested I wrote another article because the "Hook-Ups" page I was talking about earlier has gotten a lot worse.

http://theinterlopersc.wordpress.com/2013/03/31/usc-hook-ups-revisited/

DigitalChaos
04-02-2013, 01:15 PM
For anyone whose interested I wrote another article because the "Hook-Ups" page I was talking about earlier has gotten a lot worse.

http://theinterlopersc.wordpress.com/2013/03/31/usc-hook-ups-revisited/

I've not read any of your other articles. I read this one and here is some commentary: Firstly, I find those type of people vile. They are basically horny douchebags straight out of Jersey Shore. That said, I take issue with two things.

#1 - I really don't see anything related to rape except MAYBE the inflating dick guy. Hard to tell with just the context given and their horrible english. It is way more headonistic than anything. Sure, they are obnoxious and full of themselves but the whole "scene" is that way to me. Both the males and females... which leads me to the second item...

#2 - You seem to focus on only the males. Most of the listed situations represented have females who are voluntarily participating in the situation. If this is "rape culture" then why don't the females get any attention from you for condoning and seeking out the environments and company of these types of men?

littlemonkey613
04-02-2013, 02:35 PM
#1: Look closer at #156. This is what I mean when I talk about educating people to look for a lack of consent. Nuances and implications of language.

#2 I think you need to reevaluate how you think about these "types of men". There is no environment at this school where they can be avoided. There is no social environment that is free from rape culture at this University.....Furthermore you act as if all predators wear it on their fucking sleeve or something. As if everyones like "hardy har gonna go hang out with people likely to rape me tonight."

I didn't know what constituted sexual assault until I experienced it multiple times at this school. We come in young and naive and are left to our own devices because the administration refuses to acknowledge the reality of the violence going on.

DigitalChaos
04-02-2013, 05:21 PM
#1: Look closer at #156. This is what I mean when I talk about educating people to look for a lack of consent. Nuances and implications of language.

#2 I think you need to reevaluate how you think about these "types of men". There is no environment at this school where they can be avoided. There is no social environment that is free from rape culture at this University.....Furthermore you act as if all predators wear it on their fucking sleeve or something. As if everyones like "hardy har gonna go hang out with people likely to rape me tonight."



I misread #156. I thought the girl was the one on the phone.
And I'm specifically talking about your article which points out a pretty specific scene.




I didn't know what constituted sexual assault until I experienced it multiple times at this school. We come in young and naive and are left to our own devices because the administration refuses to acknowledge the reality of the violence going on.

What is the administration going to do? It is going to take a LOT to stop this activity if you attack it any other way than educating the girls. I really don't see educating the guys going anywhere with a group like that.

littlemonkey613
04-02-2013, 08:32 PM
The problem is its not an isolated group of ass holes. This is the kind of thing is normalized behavior to the n'th degree. I mean my personal goal is so meager and sad it just involves the school acknowledging officially that it has a rape problem. As of now no one who acts like this feels like there will be any consequences because there are no consequences from anyone. It's a viscous cycle of copycat behavior. I agree with you that the danger won't go away over night and that's why I want the school to acknowledge that it is unsafe for students based on what I see (which I'm in the process of documenting officially). They made me believe I was safe and that if I didn't blackout or lose my inhibitions I would be fine.

However, an uneven focus on the girls will do nothing. The two things go hand in hand. In order to lay out the danger they have to point out the danger. The latter is where their true refusal lies.

One of my friends (whose blog I posted earlier) was raped by a fellow student and has 2 recorded confessions. They are saying its not valid evidence. Today she had a meeting with the judiciary discipline at the school and they told her "We only accept good people here." He's still on campus living normally. They also actually said "We don't function like a courtroom." As in, what's evidence there in a more logical system is not evidence here. Ugh.

.... So she wrote an op ed and is sending it to every publication and is going to sue the school. (Lucky for her her mother is a really famous lawyer and author.)

DigitalChaos
04-03-2013, 12:07 AM
That school is ridiculous. It really doesn't matter how they want to operate though. Fuck em and bring them into the legal system. They aren't a sovereign entity.

DigitalChaos
04-05-2013, 11:04 PM
Michael Arrington, TechCrunch founder and one of the big names in Silicon Valley, is becoming part of the national conversation on rape: http://gawker.com/5993695/techcrunch-founder-michael-arringtons-history-of-abuse-allegations-includes-an-assault-investigation

aggroculture
04-09-2013, 01:39 PM
http://gawker.com/5994168/nova-scotia-teen-commits-suicide-after-rape-bullying

Deepvoid
04-09-2013, 02:35 PM
http://gawker.com/5994168/nova-scotia-teen-commits-suicide-after-rape-bullying

This is so sad ...

littlemonkey613
04-11-2013, 02:13 PM
That school is ridiculous. It really doesn't matter how they want to operate though. Fuck em and bring them into the legal system. They aren't a sovereign entity.

Ms. Mag picked up on the story. Awesome.

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2013/04/10/outing-a-rapist/

DigitalChaos
04-11-2013, 05:18 PM
and anonymous is stirring shit up outside the country: http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/04/11/see-you-sunday-anonymous-issues-new-cryptic-warning-in-attack-on-n-s-justice-minister-over-lack-of-charges-in-rehtaeh-parsons-case/

Deepvoid
04-11-2013, 08:19 PM
Good thing.
At least they will review the case.

allegro
04-11-2013, 09:38 PM
Ms. Mag picked up on the story. Awesome.

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2013/04/10/outing-a-rapist/

Wow, that is awesome!

Magtig
04-11-2013, 11:54 PM
Ms. Mag picked up on the story. Awesome.

http://msmagazine.com/blog/2013/04/10/outing-a-rapist/
I've mentioned this incident before, but I figure it bears repeating and has relevancy to this story. I once sat in a courtroom with someone who had been raped listening to story after story of horrible abuse, and watching the justice system do fuck all about it (the person I was with didn't even get a restraining order). There was one woman there who took matters into her own hands, however. She photocopied her rapists face, along with every single crime he had ever committed onto hundreds of fliers and put them up all over his neighborhood. The judge said, "You probably shouldn't be saying this to me, it could have a negative impact on your case" (wow, really? she was there trying to keep this guy away from her children). She responded by saying, "This isn't defamation of character because everything on this flier is true, and I'll tell you all about it." The judge backed off after that, and was basically forced to agree with her. What did she get? Not her rapist in jail, that would be way too much justice, she got an extension of a restraining order. Amazing and brave woman, really, and so are the ones who publicly out their rapists.

Elke
04-13-2013, 07:19 AM
Slate (http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/04/audrie_pott_and_rehtaeh_parsons_how_should_the_leg al_system_treat_nonconsensual.html) has an article on the photo side of things.

orestes
04-14-2013, 07:42 PM
Fuck (https://www.facebook.com/groups/444774028941541) this shit. (http://imgur.com/a/gKHLE)

Space Suicide
04-14-2013, 10:05 PM
Fuck (https://www.facebook.com/groups/444774028941541) this shit. (http://imgur.com/a/gKHLE)

When there's news stories I guess there's also misinformed morons who don't want to believe things. These 'supporters' look like dude bros that are friends with the boys convicted.

orestes
04-14-2013, 10:55 PM
And the ladies who support them.

Jinsai
04-15-2013, 12:25 AM
Fucking lame. I love how they hide their faces from the cameras. I would love to "hear the other side of the story" right before I clock him in the jaw.

Magtig
04-15-2013, 12:32 AM
Okay, so can we all agree that this bullshit is rape culture?